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If you are driving for work, you’re at work ?

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  • 20-11-2017 11:16pm
    #1
    Snoggums
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭


    The Road Safety Authority, An Garda Síochána and the Health and Safety Authority have launched a new TV-led campaign that highlights the dangers involved in driving for work to both employers and employees which you may have seen over the last few weeks.

    The core message is simple, if you are driving for work, you’re at work !

    But really, is this the case?

    If so, than why doesn't a lot of jobs pay in this manner in terms of hours per week.

    Does anyone know what is the true standing on this situation or is it a zero hour issue?


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    #2
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    This definitely opens a can of worms, regarding the working time directive and the like.


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    #3
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,208 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    Karsini wrote: »
    This definitely opens a can of worms, regarding the working time directive and the like.

    My work have a policy on it. Covers things like the above. Also has a policy if the trip is 3 hours or more it’s a two person trip.

    They aren’t doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. A crash (non serious) in a company car a couple of years ago spurred them on.


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    #4
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


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    #5
    Dial Hard
    Registered Users Posts: 13,464 ✭✭✭✭Dial Hard


    Snoggums wrote:
    If so, than why doesn't a lot of jobs pay in this manner in terms of hours per week.

    Driving to/from work and driving for work are two very different things, that's why.


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    #6
    Alkers
    Registered Users Posts: 6,819 ✭✭✭Alkers


    Commuting to a standard workplace is not part of your job but if the location of your work changes, driving to the different locations considered part of your hours. There was an EU ruling on it recently


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    #7
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Simona1986 wrote: »
    Commuting to a standard workplace is not part of your job but if the location of your work changes, driving to the different locations considered part of your hours. There was an EU ruling on it recently

    Correct, the Tyco case, the ECJ ruled that time spent travelling each day between workers homes and the premises of the first and last customers constitutes working time, but only where workers do not have a fixed or habitual place of work.


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    #8
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    An accident while on an unbroken journey to or from work is also regarded as an accident at work.


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    #9
    GingerLily
    Registered Users Posts: 4,767 ✭✭✭GingerLily


    gctest50 wrote: »
    An accident while on an unbroken journey to or from work is also regarded as an accident at work.

    As in driving to your office in the morning? That can't be right


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    #10
    Peatys
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,881 ✭✭✭Peatys


    Patww79 wrote: »
    Are they implying commuting is part of your work?

    No, if you drive to work, that's commuting. If you drive wholly (driver) or as part or if your job (rep/service), you're at work while driving.


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    #11
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    gctest50 wrote: »
    An accident while on an unbroken journey to or from work is also regarded as an accident at work.

    Well, yes and no.

    No as in it isn't actually an accident at work meaning you are not required to fill out accident report forms etc.

    And yes it is deemed to be for the purposes of payment of injury benefit.

    This statutory provision would have no bearing on motor insurance or employer liability for example.


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    #12
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users Posts: 5,858 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    We often have to travel between workplaces. Employer refuses to pay the expenses which have been agreed at a national level.


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    #13
    patrickbrophy18
    Registered Users Posts: 1,303 ✭✭✭patrickbrophy18


    If your on shift work or a 40 hour work week, any journey outside of that doesn't count. On the other hand, if you make a living by driving (e.g. taxi, delivery, freight etc.) that driving is part of your work. Simples! :D


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    #14
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


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    #15
    EPAndlee
    Registered Users Posts: 2,172 ✭✭✭EPAndlee


    Patww79 wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I do a fair bit of driving for work and I'd never use my own car


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    #16
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


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    #17
    georgewickstaff
    Registered Users Posts: 360 ✭✭georgewickstaff


    So is this correct?

    I have a habitual place of work.

    Sometimes I have to drive to a data centre during the working day. That is driving "for" work?

    Also, if I go to the data centre first thing in morning, my working day starts as soon as I turn on the ignition?

    I have not seen the advert yet but I presume it's is to warn drivers to insure themselves correctly?


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    #18
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Sometimes I have to drive to a data centre during the working day. That is driving "for" work?
    Yes.
    Also, if I go to the data centre first thing in morning, my working day starts as soon as I turn on the ignition?
    No. Driving from home to *a* place of work is considered private travel. Yes, but only if that data centre couldn't be considered a "normal place of work". If you were to spend a lot of your days at the data centre, then that could be considered your "place of work" and thus the travel from home is a commute. Thanks to the guys below for the correction.
    I have not seen the advert yet but I presume it's is to warn drivers to insure themselves correctly?
    No, it's a road safety campaign. Effectively for employers to have a think about what they're doing and why they're doing it, when they send an employee out on the road. The employer has a responsibility to ensure the safety of their employees while working, including those who have been sent out on the road.

    That is,
    - Are they under time pressure?
    - Are they in the right frame of mind?
    - Are they sober?
    - Is their vehicle roadworthy?
    - Are they qualified to drive?

    etc etc.


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    #19
    witchgirl26
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭witchgirl26


    seamus wrote: »
    No. Driving from home to *a* place of work is considered private travel.
    It's irritating, but that's the revenue rules on claiming expenses. In order to claim it as "work" travel, strictly speaking you should drive to work first, then drive to the data centre.

    The only exception to this is people whose ordinary place of work is at home.

    Actually that's not necessarily true. I have to travel to Belfast sometimes for work but that is not my normal place of work. I am driving "for" work when I drive up there first thing in the morning and back as it is not my normal, contractual place of work and work have required me to be there. I am allowed to claim revenue mileage rates on this trip.


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    #20
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,260 ✭✭✭markpb


    Here's Revenue's take on it
    Business travel is when your employee travels from one place of work to another place of work as part of their duties. This includes:
    * travel between Ireland and other countries
    * travel to a place that is not their normal place of work.

    For business travel, the distance in kilometres is calculated by the lower of either:
    * the distance between your employee's home and the temporary place of work
    * the distance between your employee's normal place of work and the temporary place of work.
    Travel to and from work is your employee's own private travel. It is not a business journey.
    https://www.revenue.ie/en/employing-people/employee-expenses/travel-and-subsistence/business-journeys.aspx

    The EU ruling was not related to tax though, it dealt with your working hours. My understanding is that if you drive for a living, your working hours start when you leave home to drive to your first meeting, client, etc and continue until you drive home that night.


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    #21
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    georgewickstaff wrote: »
    Sometimes I have to drive to a data centre during the working day. That is driving "for" work?

    Yes, because it is during your working day.
    georgewickstaff wrote: »
    Also, if I go to the data centre first thing in morning, my working day starts as soon as I turn on the ignition?

    No, this is a bit different as you are going there before you start work, it is not a customer of your employer and you already have a habitual place of work - that being the place where you primarily work.


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    #22
    witchgirl26
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭witchgirl26


    GM228 wrote: »
    No, this is a bit different as you are going there before you start work, it is not a customer of your employer and you already have a habitual place of work - that being the place where you primarily work.

    That's wrong. Unless his workplace is on his contract as the data centre, then he is entitled to say he is driving for work and potentially claim mileage/expenses in relation to that journey and it can be argued that his working day starts from the start of that commute.


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    #23
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    witchgirl26 wrote: »
    That's wrong. Unless his workplace is on his contract as the data centre, then he is entitled to say he is driving for work and potentially claim mileage/expenses in relation to that journey and it can be argued that his working day starts from the start of that commute.

    Yes you can claim mileage expenses, but it is not "working time".

    The issue of working time for start and finishing journeys only applies when you don't have a fixed or habitual place of work and you are driving to a customer of your employer. This was all covered by the ECJ.

    Also if we want to get really strict about it the ECJ judgement related to using a company vehicle as opposed to a private vehicle to/from your home.


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    #24
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users Posts: 5,858 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    witchgirl26 wrote: »
    Actually that's not necessarily true. I have to travel to Belfast sometimes for work but that is not my normal place of work. I am driving "for" work when I drive up there first thing in the morning and back as it is not my normal, contractual place of work and work have required me to be there. I am allowed to claim revenue mileage rates on this trip.

    How does that work though if you're primarily based in one place but your contract says you can be rotated through three or four places? To all intents and purposes you have one 'base' but if they suddenly say "go to place #3 for Wednesday", then are you entitled to extra or not?


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    #25
    witchgirl26
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭witchgirl26


    Chris_5339762 wrote: »
    How does that work though if you're primarily based in one place but your contract says you can be rotated through three or four places? To all intents and purposes you have one 'base' but if they suddenly say "go to place #3 for Wednesday", then are you entitled to extra or not?

    I know for my contract it states my normal place of work address and includes a piece saying that I may be obliged to travel to other offices of the company as part of my work, then I can claim mileage on the travel to them.

    Per revenue.ie:
    "The normal place of work is where your employee works on a day to day basis. This may not always be your (the employer’s) base. Your business may have additional bases elsewhere. In this case, the normal place of work may not be the same for all of your employees."

    I'm not a tax accountant so I couldn't say for certain if 2 places were listed on your contract what the story would be. That would be a query for revenue.


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    #26
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    witchgirl26 wrote: »
    Chris_5339762 wrote: »
    How does that work though if you're primarily based in one place but your contract says you can be rotated through three or four places? To all intents and purposes you have one 'base' but if they suddenly say "go to place #3 for Wednesday", then are you entitled to extra or not?

    I know for my contract it states my normal place of work address and includes a piece saying that I may be obliged to travel to other offices of the company as part of my work, then I can claim mileage on the travel to them.

    Per revenue.ie:
    "The normal place of work is where your employee works on a day to day basis. This may not always be your (the employer’s) base. Your business may have additional bases elsewhere. In this case, the normal place of work may not be the same for all of your employees."

    I'm not a tax accountant so I couldn't say for certain if 2 places were listed on your contract what the story would be. That would be a query for revenue.

    Payment of subsistence payments are a matter between employer and employee, not Revenue. Such payments are not mandatory.


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    #27
    witchgirl26
    Registered Users Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭witchgirl26


    GM228 wrote: »
    Payment of subsistence payments are a matter between employer and employee, not Revenue. Such payments are not mandatory.

    That they are but they are a matter for revenue if you are going to pay them as they can be subject to tax. Therefore the revenue's website is a good source of information on them so that you get what can be entitled to you without having to pay tax on it.

    While they are not mandatory, you can argue for them if you're doing a significant amount of driving for the company in your own car but not being reimbursed for it. Especially as your insurance category has to change and may increase as a result.

    I honestly don't know of many companies that don't pay mileage or fuel for people who drive for work purposes and don't have access to a company/pool car.


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    #28
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,586 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    I'm frequently amazed by the businesses who invest big money in branding their vans and trucks, but don't seem to give a thought to driver behaviour. So you have drivers bombing around with the company name writ large on the side, with the phone in one or two hands or held to the ear as they speed around cutting up other drivers.


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    #29
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    witchgirl26 wrote: »
    That they are but they are a matter for revenue if you are going to pay them as they can be subject to tax. Therefore the revenue's website is a good source of information on them so that you get what can be entitled to you without having to pay tax on it.

    And again this is an issue between employee and employer, there is no entitlement of receiving tax free allowances for travel, an employer can choose to pay flat-rate expenses tax free, actual rate expenses tax free or a round-sum scheme which is taxable (or nothing at all of course) - usually (but not always) covered in your contract or by for example a collective agreement.

    When operating a tax free system that is a matter between employer and Revenue (not employee-Revenue) and the employer must have appropriate recording and internal control systems relating to them in place.


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    #30
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,272 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Patww79 wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    No. Other travel as part of your work.


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    #31
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users Posts: 24,964 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    witchgirl26 wrote: »
    ...Unless his workplace is on his contract...
    I'm a bit puzzled by the comments regarding workplace location being on a contract.

    None of the 500 employees in my organisation have a workplace location in their contract as it would be impossible to do so for staff who may be rotated among 20 or so locations. The employers address would be the only location on the contract.


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