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What Is the real origin of the surname Miskimmins
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Why do you not just do a y chromozone dna test that will tell you were your family originates, it would be far better and alot easier. Its very accurate as well as its passed from father to son etc so the dna will be unchanged. http://www.dna-worldwide.com/ancestry-testing/male-ancestry/
I'm a co-administrator on the Ireland Y-chromosome DNA project at FamilytreeDNA we have over 4k results for men who trace ancestry back to Ireland. Tbh it's not as simple as that. Mainly as there been a huge amount of traffic especially between Ireland and Scotland. For example majority of Irish men belong to sub-haplogroup of R1b called L21. The evidence is pointing to this as having originated in France about 3,700 years ago. Of course L21 is dominate haplogroup in Wales and Western Scotland as well. There are multiple sub-haplogroups of it, so you might get lucky and find matches.
Lets just say it can become an expensive hobby
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Well think of this way before the mid 16 century they were all Catholic who converted quite suddenly to Calvinism or Anglicanism. You have to remember that before the reformation that Ireland and Scotland were intimatly linked on many levels. Particulary due to language and culture over the vast bulk of both countries.
Regarding catholics converting well especially in Ulster I would imagine it was one of the few ways to maintain ones land. You see this throughout the island of Ireland. Catholics converted particulary to "Church of Ireland" so as to maintain land. The Penal laws in the 18th century (which also affected Presbytrians) insisted that Catholics subdivide their land among all their sons (thus making estate smaller and smaller over time), however if one of the heirs converted (not necessary the oldest) he would receive the entire estate.
If you look at the clerics in Church of Ireland who translated the bible into Irish you will see that the archbishop of Tuam was an O'Donnell (Ó Domhnaill) -- interesting enough this translation of the bible was used in the 18th century in Scotland as well in Highlands
http://books.google.com/books?id=niRMAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=An+B%C3%ADobla+Naomhtha&hl=en&ei=JyYMTsG8OITEswbY9czeDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://web.mac.com/onlinebible/Bible/IRL1817/IRL1817.html
Hi i think your getting confused my Mcwilliams were planters from lowland scotland (they weren't irish catholics thats what i'm trying to work out why they converted) as far as i can see and they were brought in about the same time as my own family around 1620, but it seems that sometime around 1750 they all converted to catholism. I was just wondering how that could've happened back then and why a whole (massive) family would've converted together?.... something must've happened they must've been threatened or something and it was illegal to do that then aswell...
http://www.billmacafee.com/1766census/1766religiouscensusderry.pdf
As you can see they are all catholic here
http://www.billmacafee.com/1740returns/1740protestantreturnsderry.pdf
Now the same (mostly) people are all protestant
And it seems that they changed the spelling from williamson (which is the scottish version) to mcwilliams sometime too (maybe at the conversion?) but here they are anyway coming over from scotland.
http://www.billmacafee.com/1630musterrolls/1630musterrollsderry.pdf
Its obviously them because were are all the williamsons at down there right now? :P Its the same parish too.
I'm just trying to work out why they converted that is all.
Oh and heres them in the hearth role thingy aswell
http://www.billmacafee.com/1660shearthmoneyrolls/1663hearthmoneyrollsderry.pdf
Intrestingly the spelling is mcwilliams there, however those names look irish
Oh and you say about scottish plantation folk being linked with irish folk well i'm sick to the bone teeth of folk saying that, theres quite a difference in culture in scotland a bit like ni.... there are people from the lowlands these are presbyterians who originated in england and spoke english these were the planters, then there are other folk who are from the highlands who spoke the Gaelic language and were catholic these people were from western and northern scotland not southern scotland they were mostly irish... The people who were brought to ni were from the lowlands so would've originated somewhere in england so essentially no we are not irish descent, maybe if we were highland scots but no we aren't so we aren't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowland_Scotland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Highlands 0 -
Owen,
there's no need to get defensive no where in my post did I make such claims. I just mentioned that it is a know fact that native Irish did convert to the church of Ireland. This can be seen everywhere on the island of Ireland. For example the "O'Brien" who is linear descendant of Brian Boru (died 1014AD) is a member of Church of Ireland (as well as been Baron Inchiquin). Likewise conversions easily went the other way be it due to marriage or landlord etc, people were considerably more fluid at that time when it came to "denomination" particularly the ordinary person (as oppose to educated landed elite)
Regarding the lowlands/highlands. Our interpretation of them is actually quite different from the situation between the 11th and 15th century. for example on the wikipedia article you see the following:
However the linguistic situation in 1400 didn't actually reflect this. As can be seen here in this map of the time:
As you can see alot of the western lowlands was actually Gaelic speaking at this time. Scots itself had originally been restricted to the south-east lowlands (Lothian/Scottish Borders) until the area was absorbed into Kingdom of Scotland in the 11th century (before the Norman invasion). Scots itself gradually expanded into the rest of lowlands mainly due to creation of Burgs in the 12-14th century during which time it gained prestige and eventually became the language of the Scottish court. Before this it was just know as Inglis the term "Scottis" been the word for Gaelic, only from 15th century onwards that the term "Scottis" came to be used for what is now know as "Scots"
Even leaving aside all of that, there has been major traffic between the two islands since ancient times. For example the genetic marker M222 which is a subgroup of L21 is associated with the Uí Néill and Connachta in Ireland. However it seems to have higher genetic variation in Lowland Scotland and Northern England. The implication is it first arose in that area around 2,000 years ago and that men carrying it migrated into Ireland. Many men with Lowland scottish surnames have tested positive for it. The implication here is they their ancestors have lived in area for at least 2k years and they were absorbed by incoming "Anglo-saxon" groups from the 6th century onwards. If such a scenario is true they would have probably originally spoken a Brythonic (British) celtic language that would have been closely related to ancestor of Welsh.
End of day we are all human, there is less genetic variation between an Irishman and a Japanese man then there is between two chimps who live 1000km's apart. 0 -
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Hmm well i still don't believe this nonsense about folk immigrating to southern ireland it just didn't happen. The Gaelic folk did immigrate between antrim and scotland though that definitely happened how could they not when they are that close! I think i will just stick to doing the family tree this dna nonsense is just far too confusing. Oh and the last paragraph are you saying that the southern irish are folk who migrated from scotland thousands or years ago and not the other way round? (most people believe that scottish people are irish) Its very confusing.
Well people emigrated both ways for example Jameson Whiskey founded in Dublin in 1780 by a good Scot
You have to think of this way Ireland (the geographic entity) and Scotland were in personal union under one King/Queen from 1603 (James I) to 1922. It was as easy for scots to travel to Ireland for business etc as it was for scots to live in England. In such a scenario especially after full political union in 1801 of course you had people going both ways (Plenty of Irish emmigrated to Scotland in 19th century for example)
Sorry if I've been bit detailed about DNA, it's one of my passions as it allows you to look back thousands of years. In the end of day as I said we are all Human. I would think for you the main benefit of DNA testing would be to see if you can find other Cummings who might be distantly related. For example where you share a common ancestor in 18th or 19th century. The advantage here could be that they might have a piece of "Family tree" jigsaw you don't have.
Other thing would be you could see that you cluster with lots of men with surnames that are very specific to lowland scotland/northern england.
A large number of people who have tested with FamilyTreeDNA would class themselves as "Scotch Irish"/"Ulster Scots" as their ancestors came to america from Ulster during the 18th century.0 -
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Hi i think your getting confused my Mcwilliams were planters from lowland scotland (they weren't irish catholics thats what i'm trying to work out why they converted) as far as i can see and they were brought in about the same time as my own family around 1620, but it seems that sometime around 1750 they all converted to catholism. I was just wondering how that could've happened back then and why a whole (massive) family would've converted together?.... something must've happened they must've been threatened or something and it was illegal to do that then aswell...
http://www.billmacafee.com/1766census/1766religiouscensusderry.pdf
As you can see they are all catholic here
http://www.billmacafee.com/1740returns/1740protestantreturnsderry.pdf
Now the same (mostly) people are all protestant
And it seems that they changed the spelling from williamson (which is the scottish version) to mcwilliams sometime too (maybe at the conversion?) but here they are anyway coming over from scotland.
http://www.billmacafee.com/1630musterrolls/1630musterrollsderry.pdf
Its obviously them because were are all the williamsons at down there right now? :P Its the same parish too.
I'm just trying to work out why they converted that is all.
Oh and heres them in the hearth role thingy aswell
http://www.billmacafee.com/1660shearthmoneyrolls/1663hearthmoneyrollsderry.pdf
Intrestingly the spelling is mcwilliams there, however those names look irish Oh and you say about scottish plantation folk being linked with irish folk well i'm sick to the bone teeth of folk saying that, theres quite a difference in culture in scotland a bit like ni.... there are people from the lowlands these are presbyterians who originated in england and spoke english these were the planters, then there are other folk who are from the highlands who spoke the Gaelic language and were catholic these people were from western and northern scotland not southern scotland they were mostly irish... The people who were brought to ni were from the lowlands so would've originated somewhere in england so essentially no we are not irish descent, maybe if we were highland scots but no we aren't so we aren't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowland_Scotland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Highlands
How did you get on to McWilliams, I have a McWilliams in my mothers tree they came over from Scotland.
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No but she originates from Donaghadee and we were both researching the same families i.e. Miskimmin and Strain so we helped each other out quite a bit, and I suppose you could say we are related far out........;)
Awk right i see i thought that was your account. Well i haven't got any further on the family tree. I think i will go upto proni someday before the summer is off and look at some of the estate records to see if i find anything will say on here if i do. 0 -
Awk right i see i thought that was your account. Well i haven't got any further on the family tree. I think i will go upto proni someday before the summer is off and look at some of the estate records to see if i find anything will say on here if i do.
You two are up to something, aren't you. I need someone to help me with the following LIST: Names of 14,400 Protestant Householders in 1740 in Londonderry Survey in parts of counties of Denagal, Londonderry and Antrim.
Supposedly this list on Page 42 contains a family in Londonderry County, Kenought Barony, Tamlahtard Parish, Carnoury of....
David, George, John and James Muskimmin.
The DAVID that we look for is David Miskimmin(s) emigrated 1748 from Carrickfergus.
Close, but no cigar. I would request a focus on County Antrim (Carrickfergus and surrounding towns)
Can you get access at PRONI? Or this site offers a download list:
http://www.ulsterheritage.com/forrest/magilligan.htm but I am afraid to purchase it because it is not for Antrim or Down.
I would love to dig further, but all the toodoo about DNA is stretching a thin line. Interesting, but not a documented link that I'm surchin fer.0 -
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