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What Is the real origin of the surname Miskimmins
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P. Breathnach wrote: »What has this spat got to do with genealogy?
The thread seems to have come back around to Genealogy again so it should stay on this for everyones sake, Thanks,0 -
bob just thinkin that might be your ancestors carmoney is like 5 mile from carrickfergus..
I'll look at that closely. What was that CD referring to? Is that something only available at PRONI?
I also saw a John Kymon referenced in one of your documents (links). I do not want to tread into what I do not know yet, so Cumming is not too likely.0 -
bobthefarmer wrote: »I'll look at that closely. What was that CD referring to? Is that something only available at PRONI?
I also saw a John Kymon referenced in one of your documents (links). I do not want to tread into what I do not know yet, so Cumming is not too likely.
What cd? Is that the ones at proni about the estate records? Ya you can only get them in there but they are really good, they give a list of tenants and actually some of them acutally have a list of scottish tenants in them but unfortunately as usual my ancestors estate records don't! :rolleyes: Yes but it was John Kymin and i think thats my scottish ancestor he came c1620 to coleraine i just can't find anything about him back in scotland so i don't know where hes from but i think its kirkcudbright as thats were the landlords were from and most of the other tenants. Well i don't mean to be rude but do try cumming because thats the scottish version of the surname and thats the form you'll most likely find in scotland not miskimmins that is only NI! Try kimmin aswell remember they used k instead of c back then and y instead of u too thats why my ancestor is spelt kymin when in relaity it should be cumin. Also take into account that they might be written in scottish english which will mean they are written as they are pronounced and they may not be pronounced the same in scotland as in england, thats prob why mines is spelt so weirdly!0 -
Ugh I've had enough of my famil and family trees they can all stuff it as far as I'm concerned if they wanny sit and huff about something which happened hundreds of years ago they can but as far as I'm concerned u dint care it's their loss.. Just had a half hour hour row With my dad about spellings he seems to think it never changed and then Miskimmins are someone elses well he can stuff it because I know they are my ancestors!!! Agg
Here are two people possibly relates to me
John comyn
Born 1608
Berwick Scotland
Then
John commine
Born 1706
Kirkcudbrightshire Scotland
I'll try find nose hopefully more successful In he Kirkcudbright area
Wow found more In Kirkcudbright:
John cumming
Born 1720
Colvend Kirkcudbright
John cumming
Born 1720
Colvend Kirkcudbright
Starting to dig deeper
John cumming
Born 1692
Colvend Kirkcudbright
Let's see if I can get further back I definately think I'm related to the cumming clan In Colvend
More:
James cumming
Born 1707
Colvend Kirkcudbright0 -
Can anybody tell me a source of the geographic name Linton? It pops up around geography related to our family in US. Maybe I can narrow my looking to a town in NI?0
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bobthefarmer wrote: »Can anybody tell me a source of the geographic name Linton? It pops up around geography related to our family in US. Maybe I can narrow my looking to a town in NI?
Here's what Woulfe said in 1923 for Linton:Mac GIOLLA FHIONNTÁIN—IV—MacAlindon, MacClinton, MacLindon, MacLinton, Linton, Lindon; 'son of Giolla Fhionntán' (servant of St. Fintan); a surname of Scottish origin, well known in Ulster.
As you can see has scottish origin, however it's a scottish "gaelic" name as oppose to one connected with Lowlands.
http://www.libraryireland.com/names/macg/mac-giolla-fhionntain.php
There is also a very rare norman name:
http://www.libraryireland.com/names/d/de-liontun.php
I would think the first one is best option for you, Clinton is form of same name.0 -
bobthefarmer wrote: »Can anybody tell me a source of the geographic name Linton? It pops up around geography related to our family in US. Maybe I can narrow my looking to a town in NI?
Why do you not just do a y chromozone dna test that will tell you were your family originates, it would be far better and alot easier. Its very accurate as well as its passed from father to son etc so the dna will be unchanged. http://www.dna-worldwide.com/ancestry-testing/male-ancestry/0 -
Why do you not just do a y chromozone dna test that will tell you were your family originates, it would be far better and alot easier. Its very accurate as well as its passed from father to son etc so the dna will be unchanged. http://www.dna-worldwide.com/ancestry-testing/male-ancestry/
I'm a co-administrator on the Ireland Y-chromosome DNA project at FamilytreeDNA we have over 4k results for men who trace ancestry back to Ireland. Tbh it's not as simple as that. Mainly as there been a huge amount of traffic especially between Ireland and Scotland. For example majority of Irish men belong to sub-haplogroup of R1b called L21. The evidence is pointing to this as having originated in France about 3,700 years ago. Of course L21 is dominate haplogroup in Wales and Western Scotland as well. There are multiple sub-haplogroups of it, so you might get lucky and find matches.
Lets just say it can become an expensive hobby0 -
Ugh so your telling me then that you can't put I'n the DNA test and if you have Scottish ancestry otl come out Irish or something well then there's no point In doing that then it's more exciting doing a family tree anyway..0
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Was just reading that site very interesting about the cummins down south it seems that they are English which is interesting because I thought they were Irish it's a pity Theres nothing on the mcwilliam surname I fail to find anything about us online and have searched numourous sites as I'm sure you'll find!0
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Ugh so your telling me then that you can't put I'n the DNA test and if you have Scottish ancestry otl come out Irish or something well then there's no point In doing that then it's more exciting doing a family tree anyway..
Well no that's not what I'm saying. Doing DNA testing will do two things. It will show for example- Ancient ancestral origin -- L21 for example appears to be "Celtic", so scots, irish, welsh, french can be carriers
- It can show you surnames of men who are close matches to you, this can help from point of view of surnames been of certain geopgrahic origin or also when it comes to getting over roadblocks in your family tree -- someone who is close genetic match might have info you don't have etc.
The other thing to consider is that new discoveries are made on regular basis. For example there are know clades that are more common in Scotland, though they have some overlap into Ireland. They have also found clusters that appear geographically specific to parts of Ireland.
If for example you got tested and you came back R1b-U106 or I1 then that might indictate deep ancestry in the germanic world etc. You would then be given a list of men of same haplogroup who you have close affinity to "low genetic distance", you might of course belong to a specific Surname cluster. Or a cluster that contains a number of related surnames.0 -
Was just reading that site very interesting about the cummins down south it seems that they are English which is interesting because I thought they were Irish it's a pity Theres nothing on the mcwilliam surname I fail to find anything about us online and have searched numourous sites as I'm sure you'll find!
Not necessary english see the below from Woulfes 1923 book:
http://www.libraryireland.com/names/oc/o-cuimin.php
http://www.libraryireland.com/names/oc/o-comain.php
McWilliam might be for example a branch of the Burkes. The two main septs in west of Ireland were Mac William "upper"/"lower"
http://www.libraryireland.com/names/d/de-burc-de-burca.php
I also see:
http://www.libraryireland.com/names/macu/mac-uilliam.php0 -
Thank you that's the same as I found but I'm convinced it's Scottish I'd love to get something about the family I'n this county though because if you look at the 1740 census every single one was Protestant just like the ones of antrim and down but after that they are all Catholics I'd love to know why a whole family converted and how they did it and wasn't to illegal to do that then? It's a very weird mystery... Mind you there's still some Protestants left In the family there's even some local one it's just very weird though how names change over the years like a Protestant becoming a catholic one it's very annoying when you tell people about McWilliams and they're like how you must be native ... people in northern Ireland dont seem to know much about ancestry... It's a bit depressing when ulster scots names start to turn catholic it would be nice if they stayed ulster scots and kept a bit of the family history! As for McWilliams I actually ment there history in northern Ireland as to how such a vast family became catholic in just a few years I'd love to know what went on!0
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Thank you that's the same as I found but I'm convinced it's Scottish I'd love to get something about the family I'n this county though because if you look at the 1740 census every single one was Protestant just like the ones of antrim and down but after that they are all Catholics I'd love to know why a whole family converted and how they did it and wasn't to illegal to do that then? It's a very weird mystery... Mind you there's still some Protestants left In the family there's even some local one it's just very weird though how names change over the years like a Protestant becoming a catholic one it's very annoying when you tell people about McWilliams and they're like how you must be native ... people in northern Ireland dont seem to know much about ancestry... It's a bit depressing when ulster scots names start to turn catholic it would be nice if they stayed ulster scots and kept a bit of the family history! As for McWilliams I actually ment there history in northern Ireland as to how such a vast family became catholic in just a few years I'd love to know what went on!
Well think of this way before the mid 16 century they were all Catholic who converted quite suddenly to Calvinism or Anglicanism. You have to remember that before the reformation that Ireland and Scotland were intimatly linked on many levels. Particulary due to language and culture over the vast bulk of both countries.
Regarding catholics converting well especially in Ulster I would imagine it was one of the few ways to maintain ones land. You see this throughout the island of Ireland. Catholics converted particulary to "Church of Ireland" so as to maintain land. The Penal laws in the 18th century (which also affected Presbytrians) insisted that Catholics subdivide their land among all their sons (thus making estate smaller and smaller over time), however if one of the heirs converted (not necessary the oldest) he would receive the entire estate.
If you look at the clerics in Church of Ireland who translated the bible into Irish you will see that the archbishop of Tuam was an O'Donnell (Ó Domhnaill) -- interesting enough this translation of the bible was used in the 18th century in Scotland as well in Highlands
http://books.google.com/books?id=niRMAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=An+B%C3%ADobla+Naomhtha&hl=en&ei=JyYMTsG8OITEswbY9czeDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://web.mac.com/onlinebible/Bible/IRL1817/IRL1817.html0 -
Well think of this way before the mid 16 century they were all Catholic who converted quite suddenly to Calvinism or Anglicanism. You have to remember that before the reformation that Ireland and Scotland were intimatly linked on many levels. Particulary due to language and culture over the vast bulk of both countries.
Regarding catholics converting well especially in Ulster I would imagine it was one of the few ways to maintain ones land. You see this throughout the island of Ireland. Catholics converted particulary to "Church of Ireland" so as to maintain land. The Penal laws in the 18th century (which also affected Presbytrians) insisted that Catholics subdivide their land among all their sons (thus making estate smaller and smaller over time), however if one of the heirs converted (not necessary the oldest) he would receive the entire estate.
If you look at the clerics in Church of Ireland who translated the bible into Irish you will see that the archbishop of Tuam was an O'Donnell (Ó Domhnaill) -- interesting enough this translation of the bible was used in the 18th century in Scotland as well in Highlands
http://books.google.com/books?id=niRMAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=An+B%C3%ADobla+Naomhtha&hl=en&ei=JyYMTsG8OITEswbY9czeDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://web.mac.com/onlinebible/Bible/IRL1817/IRL1817.html
Hi i think your getting confused my Mcwilliams were planters from lowland scotland (they weren't irish catholics thats what i'm trying to work out why they converted) as far as i can see and they were brought in about the same time as my own family around 1620, but it seems that sometime around 1750 they all converted to catholism. I was just wondering how that could've happened back then and why a whole (massive) family would've converted together?.... something must've happened they must've been threatened or something and it was illegal to do that then aswell...
http://www.billmacafee.com/1766census/1766religiouscensusderry.pdf
As you can see they are all catholic here
http://www.billmacafee.com/1740returns/1740protestantreturnsderry.pdf
Now the same (mostly) people are all protestant
And it seems that they changed the spelling from williamson (which is the scottish version) to mcwilliams sometime too (maybe at the conversion?) but here they are anyway coming over from scotland.
http://www.billmacafee.com/1630musterrolls/1630musterrollsderry.pdf
Its obviously them because were are all the williamsons at down there right now? :P Its the same parish too.
I'm just trying to work out why they converted that is all.
Oh and heres them in the hearth role thingy aswell
http://www.billmacafee.com/1660shearthmoneyrolls/1663hearthmoneyrollsderry.pdf
Intrestingly the spelling is mcwilliams there, however those names look irishOh and you say about scottish plantation folk being linked with irish folk well i'm sick to the bone teeth of folk saying that, theres quite a difference in culture in scotland a bit like ni.... there are people from the lowlands these are presbyterians who originated in england and spoke english these were the planters, then there are other folk who are from the highlands who spoke the Gaelic language and were catholic these people were from western and northern scotland not southern scotland they were mostly irish... The people who were brought to ni were from the lowlands so would've originated somewhere in england so essentially no we are not irish descent, maybe if we were highland scots but no we aren't so we aren't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowland_Scotland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Highlands
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Owen,
there's no need to get defensive no where in my post did I make such claims. I just mentioned that it is a know fact that native Irish did convert to the church of Ireland. This can be seen everywhere on the island of Ireland. For example the "O'Brien" who is linear descendant of Brian Boru (died 1014AD) is a member of Church of Ireland (as well as been Baron Inchiquin). Likewise conversions easily went the other way be it due to marriage or landlord etc, people were considerably more fluid at that time when it came to "denomination" particularly the ordinary person (as oppose to educated landed elite)
Regarding the lowlands/highlands. Our interpretation of them is actually quite different from the situation between the 11th and 15th century. for example on the wikipedia article you see the following:
However the linguistic situation in 1400 didn't actually reflect this. As can be seen here in this map of the time:
As you can see alot of the western lowlands was actually Gaelic speaking at this time. Scots itself had originally been restricted to the south-east lowlands (Lothian/Scottish Borders) until the area was absorbed into Kingdom of Scotland in the 11th century (before the Norman invasion). Scots itself gradually expanded into the rest of lowlands mainly due to creation of Burgs in the 12-14th century during which time it gained prestige and eventually became the language of the Scottish court. Before this it was just know as Inglis the term "Scottis" been the word for Gaelic, only from 15th century onwards that the term "Scottis" came to be used for what is now know as "Scots"
Even leaving aside all of that, there has been major traffic between the two islands since ancient times. For example the genetic marker M222 which is a subgroup of L21 is associated with the Uí Néill and Connachta in Ireland. However it seems to have higher genetic variation in Lowland Scotland and Northern England. The implication is it first arose in that area around 2,000 years ago and that men carrying it migrated into Ireland. Many men with Lowland scottish surnames have tested positive for it. The implication here is they their ancestors have lived in area for at least 2k years and they were absorbed by incoming "Anglo-saxon" groups from the 6th century onwards. If such a scenario is true they would have probably originally spoken a Brythonic (British) celtic language that would have been closely related to ancestor of Welsh.
End of day we are all human, there is less genetic variation between an Irishman and a Japanese man then there is between two chimps who live 1000km's apart.0 -
Hmm well i still don't believe this nonsense about folk immigrating to southern ireland it just didn't happen. The Gaelic folk did immigrate between antrim and scotland though that definitely happened how could they not when they are that close! I think i will just stick to doing the family tree this dna nonsense is just far too confusing. Oh and the last paragraph are you saying that the southern irish are folk who migrated from scotland thousands or years ago and not the other way round? (most people believe that scottish people are irish) Its very confusing.0
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Hmm well i still don't believe this nonsense about folk immigrating to southern ireland it just didn't happen. The Gaelic folk did immigrate between antrim and scotland though that definitely happened how could they not when they are that close! I think i will just stick to doing the family tree this dna nonsense is just far too confusing. Oh and the last paragraph are you saying that the southern irish are folk who migrated from scotland thousands or years ago and not the other way round? (most people believe that scottish people are irish) Its very confusing.
Well people emigrated both ways for example Jameson Whiskey founded in Dublin in 1780 by a good Scot
You have to think of this way Ireland (the geographic entity) and Scotland were in personal union under one King/Queen from 1603 (James I) to 1922. It was as easy for scots to travel to Ireland for business etc as it was for scots to live in England. In such a scenario especially after full political union in 1801 of course you had people going both ways (Plenty of Irish emmigrated to Scotland in 19th century for example)
Sorry if I've been bit detailed about DNA, it's one of my passions as it allows you to look back thousands of years. In the end of day as I said we are all Human. I would think for you the main benefit of DNA testing would be to see if you can find other Cummings who might be distantly related. For example where you share a common ancestor in 18th or 19th century. The advantage here could be that they might have a piece of "Family tree" jigsaw you don't have.
Other thing would be you could see that you cluster with lots of men with surnames that are very specific to lowland scotland/northern england.
A large number of people who have tested with FamilyTreeDNA would class themselves as "Scotch Irish"/"Ulster Scots" as their ancestors came to america from Ulster during the 18th century.0 -
Hi... Is this the thing your going on about? http://www.familytreedna.com/family-finder-compare.aspx which one should I do I'm confused what does each of them show? Does it connect you with families in. Scotland or does if show your DNA makeup there's do many types of DNA tests im confused?0
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Hi i think your getting confused my Mcwilliams were planters from lowland scotland (they weren't irish catholics thats what i'm trying to work out why they converted) as far as i can see and they were brought in about the same time as my own family around 1620, but it seems that sometime around 1750 they all converted to catholism. I was just wondering how that could've happened back then and why a whole (massive) family would've converted together?.... something must've happened they must've been threatened or something and it was illegal to do that then aswell...
http://www.billmacafee.com/1766census/1766religiouscensusderry.pdf
As you can see they are all catholic here
http://www.billmacafee.com/1740returns/1740protestantreturnsderry.pdf
Now the same (mostly) people are all protestant
And it seems that they changed the spelling from williamson (which is the scottish version) to mcwilliams sometime too (maybe at the conversion?) but here they are anyway coming over from scotland.
http://www.billmacafee.com/1630musterrolls/1630musterrollsderry.pdf
Its obviously them because were are all the williamsons at down there right now? :P Its the same parish too.
I'm just trying to work out why they converted that is all.
Oh and heres them in the hearth role thingy aswell
http://www.billmacafee.com/1660shearthmoneyrolls/1663hearthmoneyrollsderry.pdf
Intrestingly the spelling is mcwilliams there, however those names look irishOh and you say about scottish plantation folk being linked with irish folk well i'm sick to the bone teeth of folk saying that, theres quite a difference in culture in scotland a bit like ni.... there are people from the lowlands these are presbyterians who originated in england and spoke english these were the planters, then there are other folk who are from the highlands who spoke the Gaelic language and were catholic these people were from western and northern scotland not southern scotland they were mostly irish... The people who were brought to ni were from the lowlands so would've originated somewhere in england so essentially no we are not irish descent, maybe if we were highland scots but no we aren't so we aren't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowland_Scotland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Highlands
How did you get on to McWilliams, I have a McWilliams in my mothers tree they came over from Scotland.0 -
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Went and did some research and turns out the McWilliams were williamsons and were brought over with sir Edward doddimgton the head of the skinners company from wiltshire! So the McWilliams are English from wiltshire, turns out I have more English ancestry than I expected! That's 2 out of 8 of my families that are English amazing I always thought the plantation was mostly Scottish!0
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very far out like they married into my ggggrandfathers brothers family.
LOL well i shouldn't bother then. Are you this woman?http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=40665
Are you living in australia! :eek:0 -
LOL well i shouldn't bother then. Are you this woman?http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=40665
Are you living in australia! :eek:
No but she originates from Donaghadee and we were both researching the same families i.e. Miskimmin and Strain so we helped each other out quite a bit, and I suppose you could say we are related far out........;)0 -
No but she originates from Donaghadee and we were both researching the same families i.e. Miskimmin and Strain so we helped each other out quite a bit, and I suppose you could say we are related far out........;)
Awk right i see i thought that was your account. Well i haven't got any further on the family tree. I think i will go upto proni someday before the summer is off and look at some of the estate records to see if i find anything will say on here if i do.0 -
Awk right i see i thought that was your account. Well i haven't got any further on the family tree. I think i will go upto proni someday before the summer is off and look at some of the estate records to see if i find anything will say on here if i do.
You two are up to something, aren't you. I need someone to help me with the following LIST: Names of 14,400 Protestant Householders in 1740 in Londonderry Survey in parts of counties of Denagal, Londonderry and Antrim.
Supposedly this list on Page 42 contains a family in Londonderry County, Kenought Barony, Tamlahtard Parish, Carnoury of....
David, George, John and James Muskimmin.
The DAVID that we look for is David Miskimmin(s) emigrated 1748 from Carrickfergus.
Close, but no cigar. I would request a focus on County Antrim (Carrickfergus and surrounding towns)
Can you get access at PRONI? Or this site offers a download list:
http://www.ulsterheritage.com/forrest/magilligan.htm but I am afraid to purchase it because it is not for Antrim or Down.
I would love to dig further, but all the toodoo about DNA is stretching a thin line. Interesting, but not a documented link that I'm surchin fer.0 -
bobthefarmer wrote: »You two are up to something, aren't you. I need someone to help me with the following LIST: Names of 14,400 Protestant Householders in 1740 in Londonderry Survey in parts of counties of Denagal, Londonderry and Antrim.
Supposedly this list on Page 42 contains a family in Londonderry County, Kenought Barony, Tamlahtard Parish, Carnoury of....
David, George, John and James Muskimmin.
The DAVID that we look for is David Miskimmin(s) emigrated 1748 from Carrickfergus.
Close, but no cigar. I would request a focus on County Antrim (Carrickfergus and surrounding towns)
Can you get access at PRONI? Or this site offers a download list:
http://www.ulsterheritage.com/forrest/magilligan.htm but I am afraid to purchase it because it is not for Antrim or Down.
I would love to dig further, but all the toodoo about DNA is stretching a thin line. Interesting, but not a documented link that I'm surchin fer.
Eh no we aren't i was just saying about going myself to look at the estate records possibly. Yes those are my ancestors by the sounds of things the david is probably the father of my samuel as he named his son david.
Anyway ok thats fine. No i have that document don't bother theres nothing much on my family in that except for the 1660 muster roll. I don't think theres much in county antrim records why don't you try the presbyterian church in carrickfergus. Btw what is this book you are talking about? I will try proni and see what i find do you know what townland your ancestors lived in.0 -
Wait so he left from carrickfergus! Ok then I doubt he's from there then it's silly to look there just because ge left from there! You should try elsewhere I'n south Antrim... Ive tried all possible spellings and there are none I'n carrickfergus however there's loads elsewhere however these are further north around ballymoney and Ballintoy etc.. The closest ones are In ahoghill you may be related to them? EDIT: By the looks of things the 1740 census is only available for donegal and county londonderry so i doubt you'll find anything your best bet now is to just look at the land records.0
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Eh no we aren't i was just saying about going myself to look at the estate records possibly. Yes those are my ancestors by the sounds of things the david is probably the father of my samuel as he named his son david.
Anyway ok thats fine. No i have that document don't bother theres nothing much on my family in that except for the 1660 muster roll. I don't think theres much in county antrim records why don't you try the presbyterian church in carrickfergus. Btw what is this book you are talking about? I will try proni and see what i find do you know what townland your ancestors lived in.
The Samuel M'Skimin historian was from Ballyclare he went to live in Carrickfergus he is buried in the Church of Ireland graveyard St Nicholas.0
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