What Is the real origin of the surname Miskimmins

owenc · 16-06-2011 9:47pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Indeed well not even that some of them were always catholic as they arrived before the reformation. Of course most of big names among the "Old English" are actually Cambro-Norman (Welsh-Norman). With regards to people with "scottish names" been "Church of Ireland" you have to remember that the Penal Laws of the 18th century applied to both Catholics and Presbyterian. I wouldn't be surprised if many switch affiliation for economical reasons so as to keep hold of land, business etc. You also have to remember that up until 1869 the Church of Ireland was the "State Church" of Ireland. Even though its members only formed a minority in both parts of the island (always more Presbytrians then Anglicans up north)

Anyways some protestants are actually Irish :P For example there's a former UUP MP in the North who has surname Maginnis. This surname is obviously Irish but they were known to have converted so as to keep hold of land and title. Likewise "the O'Brien" (Baron Inchiquin) is CoI

Oh aye i never thought of that, hmm maybe thats why because i know my family were very into farming and religious as-well i think they lived next door to the church LOL. Maybe there were no presbyterian churches then either? I can't remember seeing one being formed locally until 1810! :eek: Yes i know that theres loads of them in my school, i love telling them that their ancestry is irish, they don't like it at all its great sickening them and the funny thing is the most bitter ones are always the ones with the irish descent!:pac::pac: Theres also loads of catholics who are planters aswell due to the ne temere http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ne_Temere infact i'd estimate that at least 40% of catholics in northern ireland are protestant descent due to that rule, that is why you see a big rise in catholics out of nowhere in the 1970s in northern ireland.

owenc · 17-06-2011 3:58pm

Ok now I sincerely doubt Protestants would deliberately convert to catholism on their own free will!! And you Really haven't got a clue what your talking about, your from Donegal and you haven't really got any Protestant ancestry so you haven't got experience of this... but whatever... In my family it is a real mix between Presbyterian and catholism (my entire family not parental) but let's say before 1850 nearly all of them were presbyterians of some form but then after this, that new law came out and boom all these catholics come out of nowhere! I think its blatantly obvious that, that law caused this increase and it would be a bit ignorant to deny that! And is it just me or was this law brought out to try and sink the Presbyterian church? Because I certainly believe so! It's also obvious as-well that, thats the reason why the catholic church is increasing and also of note every single one of my ancestors who converted was FORCED to do so,they did not do so by choice ... so yea you can't talk when you have no experience of the matter! Oh and those figures don't look correct at all for a start it says that the C of I has decreased well actually as a matter of fact in my area or roundabouts there has been a major increase in the C of I aswell as the methodist church so you could say they were incorrect! Interestingly in the past three years the catholic church has started to go downhill rapidly here infact there is a shortage of priests locally i hear.. the local catholic schools are shrinking in population aswell! Infact they had to close one not to long ago and they are thinking of closing the other ones too! Its interesting too that after 1850 most of my ancestors who converted all converted around about the same dates! hmmm.. It doesn't matter anymore anyway because alot of catholics who had ancestors who converted are actually converting back to protestantism i had three different catholics in my family convert back to protestantism in my family alone in the last 20 years.. So it would be wise to say that the process is starting to reverse again.

Dun · 17-06-2011 4:48pm

Again, as I already pointed out, since you seem to have absolutely NO idea what Ne Temere actually is, despite pointing links, it is not forced conversion. Yikes. And it came from the Vatican, deep in the heart of Italy, where I doubt converting Presbyterians in Ireland even came across there mind. Even if that were the purpose of the law (which it was not), there was MUCH more forced conversion to Presbyterianism and Protestantism than there was to Catholicism on either the island of Ireland or Great Britain.

Also, you make a couple of statements that are false. Donegal was heavily planted in areas by people from Scotland, and many of those remain here, so to dismiss me just because of where I'm from is frankly ridiculous.

Regarding the CAIN figures, I think I'd rather believe the academics at the University of Ulster any day over your opinion, no offence intended, and they don't refer to your area, they refer to all of the six counties.

And lastly, I believe I DO have protestant ancestors on my mother's line, and unlike you, I do not intend to constantly criticise and demonise their faith if that's what they were. It'd add a nice blend in there in my opinion.

owenc · 17-06-2011 5:13pm

Stop defending the catholic church.. Your obviously being ignorant and it's obvious that the catholic church did this for world denomination! Why else would they make people convert! And yes I have been physically told that my ancestors were forced to convert so my point still stands!! And heavily planted my head there's very few Presbyterians In Donegal and even very few church of Ireland folk aswell and if abything the Presbyterians are living on the border.. A few Presbyterians here and there is not heavily planted come Here and you'll see what heavily planted is! And whatever about the figures I know mysel what way things have went here I don't nerd some figure telling me what is right and wrong the cof I has definsfely risen That is it! Oh and no there has not been more conversion I'n the Presbyterian church ministers do not care on the otherhand every mixed marriage ive heard of it's always the catholic church who are the ones making people convert! Dont make statements that are incorrect when you don't know what your talking about!

Dun · 17-06-2011 5:32pm

I'm not defending the Catholic church. I'm saying that your constant attack of it is unjustified, unwarranted, unsubstantiated and inexcusable.

Again, the Catholic church requires nobody to convert (and never has) from another Christian religion to marry another Catholic, no matter how many times you claim otherwise, it's a fact. And EVEN if they did (which they don't), people still have free will to choose to marry someone else. There was no such thing as long courtships and the like in the 1800s, and it's likely that most people getting married scarcely knew their spouse-to-be.

Also you say "mixed marriages". If it's a mixed marriage, then there's no conversion - that would mean it would be a purely Catholic marriage.

And again, it's hypocritical going after the Catholic church, when the penal laws were designed to force people to convert from Catholicism to (and to a much lesser degree and for a much lesser period of time, from Presybterianism) to Protestantism Church of Ireland.
Edit: There you go.

owenc · 17-06-2011 5:40pm

For frigg sake can you Naw see sunshine? I quote from wikipedia " The notable affect of the degree was the requirement for the non-catholic spouse to agree to raise his/her children as roman Catholics, I'n some cases it was also Expected for the spouse to convert to catholism" :rolleyes: now if that's not shellfish or an attempt at stealing other denominations then I don't know what is! Now what concern that is of them I don't know but that's plain shellfish! Excuse me I know about the penal laws but did you just say to me that they were forced to convert from Presbyterianism to "protestantism" lol the last time I checked the Anglican church considers itself a catholic church and the Presbyterian church a Christian church and also the last time I checked the presbyterian church was the only true Protestant church !! How ignorant are you? The more I see the more I laugh!!

owenc · 17-06-2011 5:46pm

Dun wrote: »

I'm not defending the Catholic church. I'm saying that your constant attack of it is unjustified, unwarranted, unsubstantiated and inexcusable.

Again, the Catholic church requires nobody to convert (and never has) from another Christian religion to marry another Catholic, no matter how many times you claim otherwise, it's a fact. And EVEN if they did (which they don't), people still have free will to choose to marry someone else. There was no such thing as long courtships and the like in the 1800s, and it's likely that most people getting married scarcely knew their spouse-to-be.

Also you say "mixed marriages". If it's a mixed marriage, then there's no conversion - that would mean it would be a purely Catholic marriage.

And again, it's hypocritical going after the Catholic church, when the penal laws were designed to force people to convert from Catholicism to Protestantism (and to a much lesser degree and for a much lesser period of time, from Presybterianism to Protestantism).

:rolleyes::rolleyes: Are presbyterians naw protestants? LOL the funny thing is the presbyterian church is the only true protestant church!

Dun · 17-06-2011 5:59pm

And again, as I said they had to AGREE to it, they did not have to DO it. It wasn't a legal requirement like the penal laws.

Let me make it clear, there is only reason one reason I posted here, and that's the end of my contribution, since the only argument you have is the one about "stealing", and is the only laughable aspect of your constant attack - the rest being absurd:

I'm not defending the Catholic church. I'm saying that your constant attack of it is unjustified, unwarranted, unsubstantiated and inexcusable.

owenc · 17-06-2011 6:09pm

Dun wrote: »

And again, as I said they had to AGREE to it, they did not have to DO it. It wasn't a legal requirement like the penal laws.

Let me make it clear, there is only reason one reason I posted here, and that's the end of my contribution, since the only argument you have is the one about "stealing", and is the only laughable aspect of your constant attack - the rest being absurd:

YES but they did not want to convert they were forced to! The church said they would not marry them if they did not convert! And they would probably convert because of love. :rolleyes: And no its not laughable i have a reason to be angry and i am very angry about this whole issue and how they have stolen several members of my family over the years! And yes they did steal them if it were not for this rule thy would not have converted! agg :mad::mad: I have nothing against the catholic church only this i can not stand them for this! Now i'm naw arguing way you again as i canny be bothered anymore i know my views and i will not change them for you, i will end this convo now! So do not reply!

P. Breathnach · 17-06-2011 6:52pm

What has this spat got to do with genealogy?

owenc · 17-06-2011 7:06pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

What has this spat got to do with genealogy?

Ano wtf like it was him who started it tho everytime i mention that he comes in! :rolleyes:

Dun · 17-06-2011 7:11pm

Every thread this fella is in, it's just dig, dig at the Catholic church. I snapped and responded to the bigotry, for which I am sorry. The constant comments to which I replied had nothing to do with the thread or genealogy to begin with, so I started nothing.

owenc · 17-06-2011 7:24pm

Dun wrote: »

Every thread this fella is in, it's just dig, dig at the Catholic church. I snapped and responded to the bigotry, for which I am sorry. The constant comments to which I replied had nothing to do with the thread or genealogy to begin with, so I started nothing.

And so what keep your nose out of my political views.. seriously if you think i'm a bigot you've obviously never spoken to any hardcore unionists! (im naw being bigoted fer the first place)...... And anyway your 24 so you canny talk any sense anyway! You've never experienced anything in the unionist community anyway so stop trying to tell me the way things work. :mad: Now leave me alone and gimmi head peace! Your the one who keeps starting the rows anyway.. AND yes it did we were discussing irish names and protestants and then you came in and gave us all a headrest!... Ok Hi i'll have tay cya later HI ok derry wan!

owenc · 17-06-2011 7:29pm

Dun wrote: »

You're saying then too that Catholics became a hell of a lot more attractive for some reason in the 1970s then? Also, a 1.7% rise in Catholic population in the 1970s is hardly a big one.

THis is were the row is started! :mad:

Dun · 17-06-2011 7:36pm

owenc wrote: »

Theres also loads of catholics who are planters aswell due to the ne temere http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ne_Temere infact i'd estimate that at least 40% of catholics in northern ireland are protestant descent due to that rule, that is why you see a big rise in catholics out of nowhere in the 1970s in northern ireland.

That's where it starts. The obvious nonsense concerning a non-existent "big rise", and falsities about a Catholic rule about an agreement that you can make and not even necessarily stick to when marrying someone from another Christian denomination; a rule that came into force in 1908. ALL of which has nothing to do with genealogy. Nor where the name came from.

[Edit:] I can't believe I'm getting sucked in again by this. Sorry folks. I shouldn't be responding when my age (which is wrong by 8 years in that post) is being thrown up as an argument as to why I'm wrong, as well as the fact I'm living in Derry :rolleyes:

barbarax · 17-06-2011 7:55pm

owenc wrote: »

Lol it's not me it's my family they have this stupid opinion that the spelling never changed and they ate denying that thus ever happened they also denying that they were church of Ireland... Yes I'm not surprised loll the Scottish version developed off the English one lol.. Cummings is a French name and it was brought to England first and then scotland so if anything we would be English lol... But I also thing that your going to have to face that your a Cummings swell lol because you won't find miskimmins in Scotland...

Nevvveeeerrrr Nevvveeeerrrr Nevvveeeerrrr lol

owenc · 17-06-2011 8:13pm

barbarax wrote: »

Nevvveeeerrrr Nevvveeeerrrr Nevvveeeerrrr lol

LOL but that will be the case since miskimmins is used in northern ireland.. i wonder who these ones are? I have traced them back to 1500! Its a pity i couldn't get back to scotland as i'd love to see how far back and were i could get to because the scottish records are while good!

John Cumming Compact Disc #133 Pin #3282301 Pedigree
Sex: M
Event(s)
Birth: 22 Oct 1642
Liberton, Midlothain, Scotland
Christening:
Liberton, Midlothain, Scotland
Death: 1703
Carnmoney, Antrim, Ireland
Burial:
Carnmoney, Antrim, Ireland

The ancestry sites say the origin of the name is in france but i don't beleive that as i have found sever comyns in morayshire in the 900AD era what you think? BTw does anyone from donegal know of the cummings donegal? Who are they? Here barbarax do you know these ones? Theres ones in donaghdee.. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rosdavies/SURNAMES/C/Cummings.htm .. It says they came over from scotland in 1607..

barbarax · 17-06-2011 8:38pm

owenc wrote: »

LOL but that will be the case since miskimmins is used in northern ireland.. i wonder who these ones are? I have traced them back to 1500! Its a pity i couldn't get back to scotland as i'd love to see how far back and were i could get to because the scottish records are while good!

John Cumming Compact Disc #133 Pin #3282301 Pedigree
Sex: M
Event(s)
Birth: 22 Oct 1642
Liberton, Midlothain, Scotland
Christening:
Liberton, Midlothain, Scotland
Death: 1703
Carnmoney, Antrim, Ireland
Burial:
Carnmoney, Antrim, Ireland

The ancestry sites say the origin of the name is in france but i don't beleive that as i have found sever comyns in morayshire in the 900AD era what you think? BTw does anyone from donegal know of the cummings donegal? Who are they? Here barbarax do you know these ones? Theres ones in donaghdee.. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rosdavies/SURNAMES/C/Cummings.htm .. It says they came over from scotland in 1607..

Don't know them personally I AM NOT THAT OLD, however my friend was married to a cummings so I must ask her was he from Donaghadee....or where. Also neighbours of ours when I was YOUNG were Cummings but they came from Belfast originally. At least my lot keep the name Miskimmin back to 1750 can't get any further back than that, your lot keeps changing their name;)
Yes the Scotlandspeople site is good, however same thing happens when you go back further than 1700 they are wrote in a list of baptisms and they don't tell you who father mother is and a lot of them you cant make out the writing.

owenc · 17-06-2011 8:48pm

barbarax wrote: »

Don't know them personally I AM NOT THAT OLD, however my friend was married to a cummings so I must ask her was he from Donaghadee....or where. Also neighbours of ours when I was YOUNG were Cummings but they came from Belfast originally. At least my lot keep the name Miskimmin back to 1750 can't get any further back than that, your lot keeps changing their name;)
Yes the Scotlandspeople site is good, however same thing happens when you go back further than 1700 they are wrote in a list of baptisms and they don't tell you who father mother is and a lot of them you cant make out the writing.

LOL well obviously!

Oh really lol your probably related no doubt! :eek: Its probably similar to the folk over in limavady related wayy out to us.. LOL your lucky tho at least when you check the records you know its yours but i have to do loads of research to make sure its them! :mad: Are you a member of scotlands people? I am not and everytime i look it asks me for money!:mad: I've tried looking at wigtownshire records and the earliest is 1680s lets hope that we are from the kirkcudbrightshire clan! that is originally were our landlord is from so lets hope so! Aw well at least i know we are planters and that i have an idea of where we came from when i first started three years ago i knew nothing! The name is very rare here we are the only ones with that spelling in the county so anyone with that spelling is a relative of my guaranteed, it seems that its the complete opposite in county down tho.

owenc · 17-06-2011 9:22pm

bob just thinkin that might be your ancestors carmoney is like 5 mile from carrickfergus..

jonniebgood1 · 17-06-2011 9:24pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

What has this spat got to do with genealogy?

The thread seems to have come back around to Genealogy again so it should stay on this for everyones sake, Thanks,

bobthefarmer · 17-06-2011 9:36pm

owenc wrote: »

bob just thinkin that might be your ancestors carmoney is like 5 mile from carrickfergus..

I'll look at that closely. What was that CD referring to? Is that something only available at PRONI?

I also saw a John Kymon referenced in one of your documents (links). I do not want to tread into what I do not know yet, so Cumming is not too likely.

owenc · 17-06-2011 9:43pm

bobthefarmer wrote: »

I'll look at that closely. What was that CD referring to? Is that something only available at PRONI?

I also saw a John Kymon referenced in one of your documents (links). I do not want to tread into what I do not know yet, so Cumming is not too likely.

What cd? Is that the ones at proni about the estate records? Ya you can only get them in there but they are really good, they give a list of tenants and actually some of them acutally have a list of scottish tenants in them but unfortunately as usual my ancestors estate records don't! :rolleyes: Yes but it was John Kymin and i think thats my scottish ancestor he came c1620 to coleraine i just can't find anything about him back in scotland so i don't know where hes from but i think its kirkcudbright as thats were the landlords were from and most of the other tenants. Well i don't mean to be rude but do try cumming because thats the scottish version of the surname and thats the form you'll most likely find in scotland not miskimmins that is only NI! Try kimmin aswell remember they used k instead of c back then and y instead of u too thats why my ancestor is spelt kymin when in relaity it should be cumin. Also take into account that they might be written in scottish english which will mean they are written as they are pronounced and they may not be pronounced the same in scotland as in england, thats prob why mines is spelt so weirdly!

owenc · 18-06-2011 11:24am

Ugh I've had enough of my famil and family trees they can all stuff it as far as I'm concerned if they wanny sit and huff about something which happened hundreds of years ago they can but as far as I'm concerned u dint care it's their loss.. Just had a half hour hour row With my dad about spellings he seems to think it never changed and then Miskimmins are someone elses well he can stuff it because I know they are my ancestors!!! Agg

Here are two people possibly relates to me

John comyn
Born 1608
Berwick Scotland

Then

John commine
Born 1706
Kirkcudbrightshire Scotland

I'll try find nose hopefully more successful In he Kirkcudbright area

Wow found more In Kirkcudbright:

John cumming
Born 1720
Colvend Kirkcudbright

John cumming
Born 1720
Colvend Kirkcudbright

Starting to dig deeper

John cumming
Born 1692
Colvend Kirkcudbright

Let's see if I can get further back I definately think I'm related to the cumming clan In Colvend

More:

James cumming
Born 1707
Colvend Kirkcudbright

bobthefarmer · 27-06-2011 1:28am

Can anybody tell me a source of the geographic name Linton? It pops up around geography related to our family in US. Maybe I can narrow my looking to a town in NI?

dubhthach · 27-06-2011 8:26am

bobthefarmer wrote: »

Can anybody tell me a source of the geographic name Linton? It pops up around geography related to our family in US. Maybe I can narrow my looking to a town in NI?

Here's what Woulfe said in 1923 for Linton:

Mac GIOLLA FHIONNTÁIN—IV—MacAlindon, MacClinton, MacLindon, MacLinton, Linton, Lindon; 'son of Giolla Fhionntán' (servant of St. Fintan); a surname of Scottish origin, well known in Ulster.

As you can see has scottish origin, however it's a scottish "gaelic" name as oppose to one connected with Lowlands.
http://www.libraryireland.com/names/macg/mac-giolla-fhionntain.php

There is also a very rare norman name:
http://www.libraryireland.com/names/d/de-liontun.php

I would think the first one is best option for you, Clinton is form of same name.

owenc · 29-06-2011 4:39pm

bobthefarmer wrote: »

Can anybody tell me a source of the geographic name Linton? It pops up around geography related to our family in US. Maybe I can narrow my looking to a town in NI?

Why do you not just do a y chromozone dna test that will tell you were your family originates, it would be far better and alot easier. Its very accurate as well as its passed from father to son etc so the dna will be unchanged. http://www.dna-worldwide.com/ancestry-testing/male-ancestry/

dubhthach · 29-06-2011 5:44pm

owenc wrote: »

Why do you not just do a y chromozone dna test that will tell you were your family originates, it would be far better and alot easier. Its very accurate as well as its passed from father to son etc so the dna will be unchanged. http://www.dna-worldwide.com/ancestry-testing/male-ancestry/

I'm a co-administrator on the Ireland Y-chromosome DNA project at FamilytreeDNA we have over 4k results for men who trace ancestry back to Ireland. Tbh it's not as simple as that. Mainly as there been a huge amount of traffic especially between Ireland and Scotland. For example majority of Irish men belong to sub-haplogroup of R1b called L21. The evidence is pointing to this as having originated in France about 3,700 years ago. Of course L21 is dominate haplogroup in Wales and Western Scotland as well. There are multiple sub-haplogroups of it, so you might get lucky and find matches.

Lets just say it can become an expensive hobby

owenc · 29-06-2011 9:59pm

Ugh so your telling me then that you can't put I'n the DNA test and if you have Scottish ancestry otl come out Irish or something well then there's no point In doing that then it's more exciting doing a family tree anyway..

owenc · 29-06-2011 10:25pm

Was just reading that site very interesting about the cummins down south it seems that they are English which is interesting because I thought they were Irish it's a pity Theres nothing on the mcwilliam surname I fail to find anything about us online and have searched numourous sites as I'm sure you'll find!

dubhthach · 30-06-2011 12:38am

owenc wrote: »

Ugh so your telling me then that you can't put I'n the DNA test and if you have Scottish ancestry otl come out Irish or something well then there's no point In doing that then it's more exciting doing a family tree anyway..

Well no that's not what I'm saying. Doing DNA testing will do two things. It will show for example

Ancient ancestral origin -- L21 for example appears to be "Celtic", so scots, irish, welsh, french can be carriers
It can show you surnames of men who are close matches to you, this can help from point of view of surnames been of certain geopgrahic origin or also when it comes to getting over roadblocks in your family tree -- someone who is close genetic match might have info you don't have etc.

The other thing to consider is that new discoveries are made on regular basis. For example there are know clades that are more common in Scotland, though they have some overlap into Ireland. They have also found clusters that appear geographically specific to parts of Ireland.

If for example you got tested and you came back R1b-U106 or I1 then that might indictate deep ancestry in the germanic world etc. You would then be given a list of men of same haplogroup who you have close affinity to "low genetic distance", you might of course belong to a specific Surname cluster. Or a cluster that contains a number of related surnames.

dubhthach · 30-06-2011 12:42am

owenc wrote: »

Was just reading that site very interesting about the cummins down south it seems that they are English which is interesting because I thought they were Irish it's a pity Theres nothing on the mcwilliam surname I fail to find anything about us online and have searched numourous sites as I'm sure you'll find!

Not necessary english see the below from Woulfes 1923 book:
http://www.libraryireland.com/names/oc/o-cuimin.php
http://www.libraryireland.com/names/oc/o-comain.php

McWilliam might be for example a branch of the Burkes. The two main septs in west of Ireland were Mac William "upper"/"lower"
http://www.libraryireland.com/names/d/de-burc-de-burca.php

I also see:
http://www.libraryireland.com/names/macu/mac-uilliam.php

owenc · 30-06-2011 6:58am

Thank you that's the same as I found but I'm convinced it's Scottish I'd love to get something about the family I'n this county though because if you look at the 1740 census every single one was Protestant just like the ones of antrim and down but after that they are all Catholics I'd love to know why a whole family converted and how they did it and wasn't to illegal to do that then? It's a very weird mystery... Mind you there's still some Protestants left In the family there's even some local one it's just very weird though how names change over the years like a Protestant becoming a catholic one it's very annoying when you tell people about McWilliams and they're like how you must be native ... people in northern Ireland dont seem to know much about ancestry... It's a bit depressing when ulster scots names start to turn catholic it would be nice if they stayed ulster scots and kept a bit of the family history! As for McWilliams I actually ment there history in northern Ireland as to how such a vast family became catholic in just a few years I'd love to know what went on!

dubhthach · 30-06-2011 8:35am

owenc wrote: »

Thank you that's the same as I found but I'm convinced it's Scottish I'd love to get something about the family I'n this county though because if you look at the 1740 census every single one was Protestant just like the ones of antrim and down but after that they are all Catholics I'd love to know why a whole family converted and how they did it and wasn't to illegal to do that then? It's a very weird mystery... Mind you there's still some Protestants left In the family there's even some local one it's just very weird though how names change over the years like a Protestant becoming a catholic one it's very annoying when you tell people about McWilliams and they're like how you must be native ... people in northern Ireland dont seem to know much about ancestry... It's a bit depressing when ulster scots names start to turn catholic it would be nice if they stayed ulster scots and kept a bit of the family history! As for McWilliams I actually ment there history in northern Ireland as to how such a vast family became catholic in just a few years I'd love to know what went on!

Well think of this way before the mid 16 century they were all Catholic who converted quite suddenly to Calvinism or Anglicanism. You have to remember that before the reformation that Ireland and Scotland were intimatly linked on many levels. Particulary due to language and culture over the vast bulk of both countries.

Regarding catholics converting well especially in Ulster I would imagine it was one of the few ways to maintain ones land. You see this throughout the island of Ireland. Catholics converted particulary to "Church of Ireland" so as to maintain land. The Penal laws in the 18th century (which also affected Presbytrians) insisted that Catholics subdivide their land among all their sons (thus making estate smaller and smaller over time), however if one of the heirs converted (not necessary the oldest) he would receive the entire estate.

If you look at the clerics in Church of Ireland who translated the bible into Irish you will see that the archbishop of Tuam was an O'Donnell (Ó Domhnaill) -- interesting enough this translation of the bible was used in the 18th century in Scotland as well in Highlands

http://books.google.com/books?id=niRMAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=An+B%C3%ADobla+Naomhtha&hl=en&ei=JyYMTsG8OITEswbY9czeDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://web.mac.com/onlinebible/Bible/IRL1817/IRL1817.html

owenc · 30-06-2011 10:34am

dubhthach wrote: »

Well think of this way before the mid 16 century they were all Catholic who converted quite suddenly to Calvinism or Anglicanism. You have to remember that before the reformation that Ireland and Scotland were intimatly linked on many levels. Particulary due to language and culture over the vast bulk of both countries.

Regarding catholics converting well especially in Ulster I would imagine it was one of the few ways to maintain ones land. You see this throughout the island of Ireland. Catholics converted particulary to "Church of Ireland" so as to maintain land. The Penal laws in the 18th century (which also affected Presbytrians) insisted that Catholics subdivide their land among all their sons (thus making estate smaller and smaller over time), however if one of the heirs converted (not necessary the oldest) he would receive the entire estate.

If you look at the clerics in Church of Ireland who translated the bible into Irish you will see that the archbishop of Tuam was an O'Donnell (Ó Domhnaill) -- interesting enough this translation of the bible was used in the 18th century in Scotland as well in Highlands

http://books.google.com/books?id=niRMAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=An+B%C3%ADobla+Naomhtha&hl=en&ei=JyYMTsG8OITEswbY9czeDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://web.mac.com/onlinebible/Bible/IRL1817/IRL1817.html

Hi i think your getting confused my Mcwilliams were planters from lowland scotland (they weren't irish catholics thats what i'm trying to work out why they converted) as far as i can see and they were brought in about the same time as my own family around 1620, but it seems that sometime around 1750 they all converted to catholism. I was just wondering how that could've happened back then and why a whole (massive) family would've converted together?.... something must've happened they must've been threatened or something and it was illegal to do that then aswell...

http://www.billmacafee.com/1766census/1766religiouscensusderry.pdf

As you can see they are all catholic here

http://www.billmacafee.com/1740returns/1740protestantreturnsderry.pdf

Now the same (mostly) people are all protestant

And it seems that they changed the spelling from williamson (which is the scottish version) to mcwilliams sometime too (maybe at the conversion?) but here they are anyway coming over from scotland.

http://www.billmacafee.com/1630musterrolls/1630musterrollsderry.pdf

Its obviously them because were are all the williamsons at down there right now? :P Its the same parish too.

I'm just trying to work out why they converted that is all.

Oh and heres them in the hearth role thingy aswell

http://www.billmacafee.com/1660shearthmoneyrolls/1663hearthmoneyrollsderry.pdf

Intrestingly the spelling is mcwilliams there, however those names look irish

Oh and you say about scottish plantation folk being linked with irish folk well i'm sick to the bone teeth of folk saying that, theres quite a difference in culture in scotland a bit like ni.... there are people from the lowlands these are presbyterians who originated in england and spoke english these were the planters, then there are other folk who are from the highlands who spoke the Gaelic language and were catholic these people were from western and northern scotland not southern scotland they were mostly irish... The people who were brought to ni were from the lowlands so would've originated somewhere in england so essentially no we are not irish descent, maybe if we were highland scots but no we aren't so we aren't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowland_Scotland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Highlands

dubhthach · 30-06-2011 12:21pm

Owen,

there's no need to get defensive no where in my post did I make such claims. I just mentioned that it is a know fact that native Irish did convert to the church of Ireland. This can be seen everywhere on the island of Ireland. For example the "O'Brien" who is linear descendant of Brian Boru (died 1014AD) is a member of Church of Ireland (as well as been Baron Inchiquin). Likewise conversions easily went the other way be it due to marriage or landlord etc, people were considerably more fluid at that time when it came to "denomination" particularly the ordinary person (as oppose to educated landed elite)

Regarding the lowlands/highlands. Our interpretation of them is actually quite different from the situation between the 11th and 15th century. for example on the wikipedia article you see the following:

However the linguistic situation in 1400 didn't actually reflect this. As can be seen here in this map of the time:

As you can see alot of the western lowlands was actually Gaelic speaking at this time. Scots itself had originally been restricted to the south-east lowlands (Lothian/Scottish Borders) until the area was absorbed into Kingdom of Scotland in the 11th century (before the Norman invasion). Scots itself gradually expanded into the rest of lowlands mainly due to creation of Burgs in the 12-14th century during which time it gained prestige and eventually became the language of the Scottish court. Before this it was just know as Inglis the term "Scottis" been the word for Gaelic, only from 15th century onwards that the term "Scottis" came to be used for what is now know as "Scots"

Even leaving aside all of that, there has been major traffic between the two islands since ancient times. For example the genetic marker M222 which is a subgroup of L21 is associated with the Uí Néill and Connachta in Ireland. However it seems to have higher genetic variation in Lowland Scotland and Northern England. The implication is it first arose in that area around 2,000 years ago and that men carrying it migrated into Ireland. Many men with Lowland scottish surnames have tested positive for it. The implication here is they their ancestors have lived in area for at least 2k years and they were absorbed by incoming "Anglo-saxon" groups from the 6th century onwards. If such a scenario is true they would have probably originally spoken a Brythonic (British) celtic language that would have been closely related to ancestor of Welsh.

End of day we are all human, there is less genetic variation between an Irishman and a Japanese man then there is between two chimps who live 1000km's apart.

owenc · 30-06-2011 12:30pm

Hmm well i still don't believe this nonsense about folk immigrating to southern ireland it just didn't happen. The Gaelic folk did immigrate between antrim and scotland though that definitely happened how could they not when they are that close! I think i will just stick to doing the family tree this dna nonsense is just far too confusing. Oh and the last paragraph are you saying that the southern irish are folk who migrated from scotland thousands or years ago and not the other way round? (most people believe that scottish people are irish) Its very confusing.

dubhthach · 30-06-2011 1:04pm

owenc wrote: »

Hmm well i still don't believe this nonsense about folk immigrating to southern ireland it just didn't happen. The Gaelic folk did immigrate between antrim and scotland though that definitely happened how could they not when they are that close! I think i will just stick to doing the family tree this dna nonsense is just far too confusing. Oh and the last paragraph are you saying that the southern irish are folk who migrated from scotland thousands or years ago and not the other way round? (most people believe that scottish people are irish) Its very confusing.

Well people emigrated both ways for example Jameson Whiskey founded in Dublin in 1780 by a good Scot

You have to think of this way Ireland (the geographic entity) and Scotland were in personal union under one King/Queen from 1603 (James I) to 1922. It was as easy for scots to travel to Ireland for business etc as it was for scots to live in England. In such a scenario especially after full political union in 1801 of course you had people going both ways (Plenty of Irish emmigrated to Scotland in 19th century for example)

Sorry if I've been bit detailed about DNA, it's one of my passions as it allows you to look back thousands of years. In the end of day as I said we are all Human. I would think for you the main benefit of DNA testing would be to see if you can find other Cummings who might be distantly related. For example where you share a common ancestor in 18th or 19th century. The advantage here could be that they might have a piece of "Family tree" jigsaw you don't have.

Other thing would be you could see that you cluster with lots of men with surnames that are very specific to lowland scotland/northern england.

A large number of people who have tested with FamilyTreeDNA would class themselves as "Scotch Irish"/"Ulster Scots" as their ancestors came to america from Ulster during the 18th century.

owenc · 30-06-2011 2:00pm

Hi... Is this the thing your going on about? http://www.familytreedna.com/family-finder-compare.aspx which one should I do I'm confused what does each of them show? Does it connect you with families in. Scotland or does if show your DNA makeup there's do many types of DNA tests im confused?

barbarax · 02-07-2011 10:39pm

owenc wrote: »

Hi i think your getting confused my Mcwilliams were planters from lowland scotland (they weren't irish catholics thats what i'm trying to work out why they converted) as far as i can see and they were brought in about the same time as my own family around 1620, but it seems that sometime around 1750 they all converted to catholism. I was just wondering how that could've happened back then and why a whole (massive) family would've converted together?.... something must've happened they must've been threatened or something and it was illegal to do that then aswell...

http://www.billmacafee.com/1766census/1766religiouscensusderry.pdf

As you can see they are all catholic here

http://www.billmacafee.com/1740returns/1740protestantreturnsderry.pdf

Now the same (mostly) people are all protestant

And it seems that they changed the spelling from williamson (which is the scottish version) to mcwilliams sometime too (maybe at the conversion?) but here they are anyway coming over from scotland.

http://www.billmacafee.com/1630musterrolls/1630musterrollsderry.pdf

Its obviously them because were are all the williamsons at down there right now? :P Its the same parish too.

I'm just trying to work out why they converted that is all.

Oh and heres them in the hearth role thingy aswell

http://www.billmacafee.com/1660shearthmoneyrolls/1663hearthmoneyrollsderry.pdf

Intrestingly the spelling is mcwilliams there, however those names look irish Oh and you say about scottish plantation folk being linked with irish folk well i'm sick to the bone teeth of folk saying that, theres quite a difference in culture in scotland a bit like ni.... there are people from the lowlands these are presbyterians who originated in england and spoke english these were the planters, then there are other folk who are from the highlands who spoke the Gaelic language and were catholic these people were from western and northern scotland not southern scotland they were mostly irish... The people who were brought to ni were from the lowlands so would've originated somewhere in england so essentially no we are not irish descent, maybe if we were highland scots but no we aren't so we aren't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowland_Scotland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Highlands

How did you get on to McWilliams, I have a McWilliams in my mothers tree they came over from Scotland.

owenc · 03-07-2011 12:03am

barbarax wrote: »

How did you get on to McWilliams, I have a McWilliams in my mothers tree they came over from Scotland.

Aw thats my mothers maiden name.. what are they to you?

barbarax · 03-07-2011 7:51pm

owenc wrote: »

Aw thats my mothers maiden name.. what are they to you?

very far out like they married into my ggggrandfathers brothers family.

owenc · 04-07-2011 7:46am

Went and did some research and turns out the McWilliams were williamsons and were brought over with sir Edward doddimgton the head of the skinners company from wiltshire! So the McWilliams are English from wiltshire, turns out I have more English ancestry than I expected! That's 2 out of 8 of my families that are English amazing I always thought the plantation was mostly Scottish!

owenc · 04-07-2011 12:36pm

barbarax wrote: »

very far out like they married into my ggggrandfathers brothers family.

LOL well i shouldn't bother then. Are you this woman?http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=40665

Are you living in australia! :eek:

barbarax · 12-07-2011 7:40pm

owenc wrote: »

LOL well i shouldn't bother then. Are you this woman?http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=40665

Are you living in australia! :eek:

No but she originates from Donaghadee and we were both researching the same families i.e. Miskimmin and Strain so we helped each other out quite a bit, and I suppose you could say we are related far out........;)

owenc · 12-07-2011 10:52pm

barbarax wrote: »

No but she originates from Donaghadee and we were both researching the same families i.e. Miskimmin and Strain so we helped each other out quite a bit, and I suppose you could say we are related far out........;)

Awk right i see i thought that was your account. Well i haven't got any further on the family tree. I think i will go upto proni someday before the summer is off and look at some of the estate records to see if i find anything will say on here if i do.

bobthefarmer · 13-07-2011 3:21pm

owenc wrote: »

Awk right i see i thought that was your account. Well i haven't got any further on the family tree. I think i will go upto proni someday before the summer is off and look at some of the estate records to see if i find anything will say on here if i do.

You two are up to something, aren't you. I need someone to help me with the following LIST: Names of 14,400 Protestant Householders in 1740 in Londonderry Survey in parts of counties of Denagal, Londonderry and Antrim.

Supposedly this list on Page 42 contains a family in Londonderry County, Kenought Barony, Tamlahtard Parish, Carnoury of....

David, George, John and James Muskimmin.

The DAVID that we look for is David Miskimmin(s) emigrated 1748 from Carrickfergus.

Close, but no cigar. I would request a focus on County Antrim (Carrickfergus and surrounding towns)

Can you get access at PRONI? Or this site offers a download list:
http://www.ulsterheritage.com/forrest/magilligan.htm but I am afraid to purchase it because it is not for Antrim or Down.

I would love to dig further, but all the toodoo about DNA is stretching a thin line. Interesting, but not a documented link that I'm surchin fer.

owenc · 13-07-2011 6:36pm

bobthefarmer wrote: »

You two are up to something, aren't you. I need someone to help me with the following LIST: Names of 14,400 Protestant Householders in 1740 in Londonderry Survey in parts of counties of Denagal, Londonderry and Antrim.

Supposedly this list on Page 42 contains a family in Londonderry County, Kenought Barony, Tamlahtard Parish, Carnoury of....

David, George, John and James Muskimmin.

The DAVID that we look for is David Miskimmin(s) emigrated 1748 from Carrickfergus.

Close, but no cigar. I would request a focus on County Antrim (Carrickfergus and surrounding towns)

Can you get access at PRONI? Or this site offers a download list:
http://www.ulsterheritage.com/forrest/magilligan.htm but I am afraid to purchase it because it is not for Antrim or Down.

I would love to dig further, but all the toodoo about DNA is stretching a thin line. Interesting, but not a documented link that I'm surchin fer.

Eh no we aren't i was just saying about going myself to look at the estate records possibly. Yes those are my ancestors by the sounds of things the david is probably the father of my samuel as he named his son david.
Anyway ok thats fine. No i have that document don't bother theres nothing much on my family in that except for the 1660 muster roll. I don't think theres much in county antrim records why don't you try the presbyterian church in carrickfergus. Btw what is this book you are talking about? I will try proni and see what i find do you know what townland your ancestors lived in.

owenc · 13-07-2011 7:20pm

Wait so he left from carrickfergus! Ok then I doubt he's from there then it's silly to look there just because ge left from there! You should try elsewhere I'n south Antrim... Ive tried all possible spellings and there are none I'n carrickfergus however there's loads elsewhere however these are further north around ballymoney and Ballintoy etc.. The closest ones are In ahoghill you may be related to them? EDIT: By the looks of things the 1740 census is only available for donegal and county londonderry so i doubt you'll find anything your best bet now is to just look at the land records.

barbarax · 16-07-2011 3:09pm

owenc wrote: »

Eh no we aren't i was just saying about going myself to look at the estate records possibly. Yes those are my ancestors by the sounds of things the david is probably the father of my samuel as he named his son david.
Anyway ok thats fine. No i have that document don't bother theres nothing much on my family in that except for the 1660 muster roll. I don't think theres much in county antrim records why don't you try the presbyterian church in carrickfergus. Btw what is this book you are talking about? I will try proni and see what i find do you know what townland your ancestors lived in.

The Samuel M'Skimin historian was from Ballyclare he went to live in Carrickfergus he is buried in the Church of Ireland graveyard St Nicholas.

What Is the real origin of the surname Miskimmins

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