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Train and Rail Systems

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    #32
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    The Idyl Race wrote: »
    Reregistered for this.

    C&T and T&RS are dominated by regular posters with a consensus, and even innocent "what if" posts are abused out of it.

    One poster in particular was highly abusive to both me and my brother, who posted as Wote, a railway industry professional, who quit boards in disgust.

    Neither board are welcoming to newcomers. In its own way, with the regulars policing contrary points of view it has become as exclusive as IRN.

    Boards.ie must decide is C&T for its regulars or is it for everyone with different points of view about the future of Irish railways.
    The Idyl(l) Race, I take a somewhat different view. Discussions about active railways, many in danger of closure, are frequently hijacked by - sorry to not mince my words here - fantasists who want to reopen many of the pre 1960s railway network - for the most part in areas of the country which have lost virtually all their prior population. There are also declarations that various sorts of railfreight would be immediately profitable if Those With Dark Agendas would just get out of the way. The technical and financial impediments regarding returning the Mark 3s to operational service are deemed fiddle-faddle and Todd Andrews talk.

    When challenged on where the money would come from and why it would be prioritised over transport projects unresourced at present they cannot answer, take personal offence and declare that those who differ from their opinion have an anti-rail agenda. It would take a fairly twisted outlook on life for even a handful of anti-rail people to hang out on a forum called "Train and Rail Systems" yet the fantasists see them everywhere.

    I'm willing to live and let live and all that, especially if people labelled their fantasy threads so that everybody knows what they are getting into and forbore from posting fantasies into discussions of active lines but if people want to put forth their fact free opinions without danger of heretical reply they should start a blog with closed comments or something.


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    #33
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Beruthiel wrote: »
    Karsini
    Are you, (and everyone else for that matter) reporting the troublesome posts so the Mod can take action?
    I do what I can and will continue to do so. :)


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    #34
    The Idyl Race
    Closed Accounts Posts: 222 ✭✭The Idyl Race


    dowlingm wrote: »
    The Idyl(l) Race, I take a somewhat different view. Discussions about active railways, many in danger of closure, are frequently hijacked by - sorry to not mince my words here - fantasists who want to reopen many of the pre 1960s railway network - for the most part in areas of the country which have lost virtually all their prior population. There are also declarations that various sorts of railfreight would be immediately profitable if Those With Dark Agendas would just get out of the way. The technical and financial impediments regarding returning the Mark 3s to operational service are deemed fiddle-faddle and Todd Andrews talk.

    When challenged on where the money would come from and why it would be prioritised over transport projects unresourced at present they cannot answer, take personal offence and declare that those who differ from their opinion have an anti-rail agenda. It would take a fairly twisted outlook on life for even a handful of anti-rail people to hang out on a forum called "Train and Rail Systems" yet the fantasists see them everywhere.

    I'm willing to live and let live and all that, especially if people labelled their fantasy threads so that everybody knows what they are getting into and forbore from posting fantasies into discussions of active lines but if people want to put forth their fact free opinions without danger of heretical reply they should start a blog with closed comments or something.

    You have two choices then, it seems to me.

    Either amend the charter to ban or flag what the regulars deem to be "fantasy" threads, or restrict membership of the board.

    In any case, I would strongly suggest to anyone with an interest in railways to read both C&T and T&RS carefully before they wade in. Perhaps this rider could be placed on the boards? Life is too short to take shít from anonymous strangers.


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    #35
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    dowlingm wrote: »
    The Idyl(l) Race, I take a somewhat different view. Discussions about active railways, many in danger of closure, are frequently hijacked by - sorry to not mince my words here - fantasists who want to reopen many of the pre 1960s railway network - for the most part in areas of the country which have lost virtually all their prior population. There are also declarations that various sorts of railfreight would be immediately profitable if Those With Dark Agendas would just get out of the way. The technical and financial impediments regarding returning the Mark 3s to operational service are deemed fiddle-faddle and Todd Andrews talk.

    When challenged on where the money would come from and why it would be prioritised over transport projects unresourced at present they cannot answer, take personal offence and declare that those who differ from their opinion have an anti-rail agenda. It would take a fairly twisted outlook on life for even a handful of anti-rail people to hang out on a forum called "Train and Rail Systems" yet the fantasists see them everywhere.

    I'm willing to live and let live and all that, especially if people labelled their fantasy threads so that everybody knows what they are getting into and forbore from posting fantasies into discussions of active lines but if people want to put forth their fact free opinions without danger of heretical reply they should start a blog with closed comments or something.

    thats telling it as it is! T and RS is for those interested in Railways as they are and as they once were, not how they could be in the imagination of dreamers.


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    #36
    The Idyl Race
    Closed Accounts Posts: 222 ✭✭The Idyl Race


    corktina wrote: »
    T and RS is for those interested in Railways as they are and as they once were, not how they could be in the imagination of dreamers.

    That's the Charter there. Straight and to the point. I would suggest that as the charter because it cannot be misinterpreted in any way.


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    #37
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I went up this road years ago, I'm now banned from Commuting & Transport permanently and the clique of regulars remain.

    Considering I work at the airport, have a great interest in transport forms of all types and regularly travel cross country, this is an inconvenience.

    The boards.ie Transport "community" is dominated by people who are one side of a debate, and will not allow people of any other ilk to post without "their" side being reported so as to be the dominant side. This includes anyone who has no interest in the politics posting to look for travel information.

    It's a private clique, and until that clique is brought into line and/or removed there is nowhere to discuss transport issues on boards.ie.


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    #38
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I went up this road years ago, I'm now banned from Commuting & Transport permanently and the clique of regulars remain.

    Considering I work at the airport, have a great interest in transport forms of all types and regularly travel cross country, this is an inconvenience.

    The boards.ie Transport "community" is dominated by people who are one side of a debate, and will not allow people of any other ilk to post without "their" side being reported so as to be the dominant side. This includes anyone who has no interest in the politics posting to look for travel information.

    It's a private clique, and until that clique is brought into line and/or removed there is nowhere to discuss transport issues on boards.ie.

    that's nonsense...I've been on there ages, have strong views on a few subjects and I didn't ever get banned.


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    #39
    newmug
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,571 ✭✭✭newmug


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    Is this not already in place across boards?

    Its supposed to be alright, but what one person considers offensive might be water off a ducks back to someone else. If yiz all think this sub-forum is bad, take a look at the Christianity forum!!!


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    #40
    The Idyl Race
    Closed Accounts Posts: 222 ✭✭The Idyl Race


    corktina wrote: »
    that's nonsense...I've been on there ages, have strong views on a few subjects and I didn't ever get banned.

    That's a bit like saying Margaret Thatcher had strong views in her Cabinet but didn't fall foul of Parliament until she fell from power :D

    I endorse a limiting of the charter because it will mean you will only ever hear from those who don't cross you. It will clearly point out to outsiders what sort of place it is.

    In your own wonderfully dismissive words:

    "T and RS is for those interested in Railways as they are and as they once were, not how they could be in the imagination of dreamers".


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    #41
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Corktina, you're one of the clique. Agree with you and a poster gets no trouble, disagree and a poster's made unwelcome.


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    #42
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    I don't think she did fall foul of Parliament did she? Still a golden girl despite her health problems I believe as far as the British Establishment is concerned.


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    #43
    sligotrain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 148 ✭✭sligotrain


    corktina wrote: »
    I don't think she did fall foul of Parliament did she? Still a golden girl despite her health problems I believe as far as the British Establishment is concerned.
    A bizarre response, however there seems to be a lot posts there advocating cuts to the rail network. How come these aren't considered fantasy threads by the clique?


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    #44
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Corktina, you're one of the clique. Agree with you and a poster gets no trouble, disagree and a poster's made unwelcome.

    I'm not part of any clique. I am of a similar opinion to a good few users of the Forum. I'd say it's more a case of not being able to stand the heat rather than being made feel unwelcome.I don't mind if folk disagree with me, I can argue my corner reasonably rationally.


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    #45
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Why should it be a case of "stand the heat or GTFO"?


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    #46
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Why should it be a case of "stand the heat or GTFO"?

    not gtfo at all....argue your case instead of just slagging off off. In other wortds, if you think T&RS should be something more than

    "T and RS is for those interested in Railways as they are and as they once were, not how they could be in the imagination of dreamers"

    tell us what it should be and maybe I might even agree with you.

    (this isn't really the place to be debating this...maybe this can be split off back to the forum in question...mods?)


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    #47
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Why should everything in T&RS be about arguing a case?


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    #48
    LoLth
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 10,339 Mod ✭✭✭✭LoLth


    ok,

    lets not start accusing users of being part of a clique.

    In general, any discussion will involve users who have opposing opinions or even jsut slightly differing opinions. Readers and subsequent posters will agree with one (or both to an extent) of those points of view. If more agree with one then that does not necessarily make them a clique of any sort, they could just be likeminded people who have had discussions in teh past and came to the same general point of view. - could be, not definitely are but lets err on the side of caution here.

    as for arguing a case: if a user posts up a claim that they want to be taken as fact then they should be prepared to post supporting evidence if they want others to also accept their claim as fact. "because" or "it just is" very rarely wins a debate or convinces a non-believer.

    If you want to state an opinion, then feel free to do so but expect it to be questioned and expect others to post their opposing opinions. If they can support their opinion with fact then you'll find yourself hard pressed to convince others of the merit of your opinion if you cannot do the same.

    Of course, you dont have to argue, you can just post your opinion but doing this too often and not providign support for that opinion can be deemed as an attempt to soapbox or preach and in many forums thats against the rules as it does not lead to discussion (which is what boards.ie is all about) but instead encourages trench warfare where neither side is willing to actually read the other side's opinion or supporting facts because they are convinced that their own opinion is the only one that matters.

    As for multi-accounts: report them. report the post(s) so the mods can pick it up. Sock puppeting is against the rules of boards (one user with multiple accounts that back each other up as if they are different people). We *might* catch them in time on our own but with users' help we'll do it a lot faster and make boards that bit more useful.

    If more mods are needed then thats something we'll have to talk to the cmods about and see if they can arrange it (each forum should have at least 2 mods, if you see a forum with only 1 mod please feel free to bring it to that mod's attention or to the attention of the cmod).


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    #49
    The Idyl Race
    Closed Accounts Posts: 222 ✭✭The Idyl Race


    corktina wrote: »
    not gtfo at all....argue your case instead of just slagging off off. In other wortds, if you think T&RS should be something more than

    "T and RS is for those interested in Railways as they are and as they once were, not how they could be in the imagination of dreamers"

    tell us what it should be and maybe I might even agree with you.

    (this isn't really the place to be debating this...maybe this can be split off back to the forum in question...mods?)


    Before you get your wish and this discussion is moved back into C&T land, is post #2777 below a good example of the cut and thrust of disagreeing with a certain bunch of posters?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=80891101

    It certainly soured me against boards. Imagine having that conversation in real life. I wouldn't.


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    #50
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    LoLth wrote: »
    ok,

    lets not start accusing users of being part of a clique.

    In general, any discussion will involve users who have opposing opinions or even jsut slightly differing opinions. Readers and subsequent posters will agree with one (or both to an extent) of those points of view. If more agree with one then that does not necessarily make them a clique of any sort, they could just be likeminded people who have had discussions in teh past and came to the same general point of view. - could be, not definitely are but lets err on the side of caution here.

    as for arguing a case: if a user posts up a claim that they want to be taken as fact then they should be prepared to post supporting evidence if they want others to also accept their claim as fact. "because" or "it just is" very rarely wins a debate or convinces a non-believer.

    If you want to state an opinion, then feel free to do so but expect it to be questioned and expect others to post their opposing opinions. If they can support their opinion with fact then you'll find yourself hard pressed to convince others of the merit of your opinion if you cannot do the same.

    Of course, you dont have to argue, you can just post your opinion but doing this too often and not providign support for that opinion can be deemed as an attempt to soapbox or preach and in many forums thats against the rules as it does not lead to discussion (which is what boards.ie is all about) but instead encourages trench warfare where neither side is willing to actually read the other side's opinion or supporting facts because they are convinced that their own opinion is the only one that matters.

    As for multi-accounts: report them. report the post(s) so the mods can pick it up. Sock puppeting is against the rules of boards (one user with multiple accounts that back each other up as if they are different people). We *might* catch them in time on our own but with users' help we'll do it a lot faster and make boards that bit more useful.

    If more mods are needed then thats something we'll have to talk to the cmods about and see if they can arrange it (each forum should have at least 2 mods, if you see a forum with only 1 mod please feel free to bring it to that mod's attention or to the attention of the cmod).

    Thanks for stepping in, but have you seen the history of messes that went/goes on when you talk about trains on boards.ie? It's been like this since the early 00s, there's been minor political pressure groups that have started with discussions from here, and a huge swathe of posts by the "regulars" (If you're not calling them a clique) waxing lyrical about how they oppose other political pressure groups. I think any new mod needs to be mindful of this, and the question needs to be asked: Do we need a sub forum for the Politics of Transport?

    There's two sides to Transport discussion- one is the logistical side, the "when is my train/is there disruption/ what services are running" stuff, and then there's the "we want X in our town/should we lobby for Y/ why the F is there Z" stuff that the regulars absolutely stuff (when I was there) the pages with.

    Any useful non political discussion was completely drowned out by the reams and reams of topics & text about opposing & supporting various causes in transport.

    But, as I say, I was banned from the place permanently, so I don't think my opinion will matter.


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    #51
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Deleted User wrote: »
    T
    There's two sides to Transport discussion- one is the logistical side, the "when is my train/is there disruption/ what services are running" stuff, and then there's the "we want X in our town/should we lobby for Y/ why the F is there Z" stuff that the regulars absolutely stuff (when I was there) the pages with.

    r.

    yes thats right and those discussions belong in Commuting and Transport, not T&RS which was conceived as a place for Rail Enthusiasts to talk about Railways as they are and as they once were (to coin a phrase)

    In most cases the former are posted in the right place and in the latter case , it is usually not the "clique" who post such stuff , it is usually them that are opposed to "we want X in our town/should we lobby for Y/ why the F is there Z" posts.(such as the WRC threads and fantasies about an Sbahn for Donegal or a tunnekl to Britain


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    #52
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Tunnel to Britain? That's a new one. But still, what's the problem with them being posted about? And if there is none, why go after them with such vitriol? (I'm presuming the same kind of language usage is used as when I wasn't banned)

    So,some newbie comes in, posts an idea that the regulars find laughable/fantasy/derisible, regulars flame it, newbie either goes away or sticks around to get either converted to regular's cause or derided enough to leave.


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    #53
    The Idyl Race
    Closed Accounts Posts: 222 ✭✭The Idyl Race


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Tunnel to Britain? That's a new one. But still, what's the problem with them being posted about? And if there is none, why go after them with such vitriol? (I'm presuming the same kind of language usage is used as when I wasn't banned)

    So,some newbie comes in, posts an idea that the regulars find laughable/fantasy/derisible, regulars flame it, newbie either goes away or sticks around to get either converted to regular's cause or derided enough to leave.

    Plenty of vitriol, I was called "insane" and told "aw diddums theres your soo soo" when I dared to suggest what you are saying.

    I think the vitriol is from the IRN war seven years ago, when it seems they must think that any newbie is an ex adversary of theirs from IRN. I do have an account on IRN but I rarely post there and certainly didn't get involved in the WRC/Platform 11 handbags.


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    #54
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    There is *shed* loads of baggage with discussing transport on boards.ie, and I think it's time for a clean slate. No more rail pressure group bullcrap from any side. I've never been a member of anything, and I've no interest in it, but I can't share any airport insights or discuss getting across the country just because I was stupid enough to go against the railway clique.


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    #55
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Tunnel to Britain? That's a new one. But still, what's the problem with them being posted about? And if there is none, why go after them with such vitriol? (I'm presuming the same kind of language usage is used as when I wasn't banned)

    So,some newbie comes in, posts an idea that the regulars find laughable/fantasy/derisible, regulars flame it, newbie either goes away or sticks around to get either converted to regular's cause or derided enough to leave.

    the problem is they don't really belong on that Forum, they are C&T matters not Heritage or railfan (and most of them are indeed laughable flights of fancy!) They concern development of services, not interest in the service itself for its own sake.

    The basic problem stems from the Forum being poorly named in the first place.imho

    I'm nothing to do with platform 11 or indeed any other poster on the forum none of whom I have ever met. I don't own a handbag.

    I do have a IRN identity and you can check it out for baggage...KID CARDINAL


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    #56
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Well, it's not really up to members to say what is or isn't allowed in a forum. That's for the charter to say. And if a member objects to a topic in a forum, then they have to bring it to a mod. If the mod allows it, then, well, it's allowed. Dumbo here (me) fell foul of the mods, and here I am, permabanned.

    If you don't like the topic being there, then it's a mod thing to change. Go say it to the mod.
    (and most of them are indeed laughable flights of fancy!)

    What bearing has your personal opinion got on this? Does that make it less/more in the wrong/right place?


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    #57
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    it's the only opinion I have.....


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    #58
    AltAccount
    Registered Users Posts: 2,058 ✭✭✭AltAccount


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Well, it's not really up to members to say what is or isn't allowed in a forum. That's for the charter to say. And if a member objects to a topic in a forum, then they have to bring it to a mod. If the mod allows it, then, well, it's allowed.

    IIRC, one of the first (if not THE first) threads on T&RS was "what should this forum be about".
    The forum was requested by the members and Victor allowed the members to help define its parameters and tone.
    So it is in fact up to the members to say what's in the forum, and to lobby for changes to the Charter if required.

    Deleted User wrote: »
    Dumbo here (me) fell foul of the mods, and here I am, permabanned.

    Seeing as you've brought it up (several times), what did you get banned for exactly?


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    #59
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Saying what I'm saying in here in threads IIRC.

    Edit: (no need to bring this back to the top unless someone else wants to discuss this topic) I logged out and had a look at Commuting & Transport and Train & Rail, and I gotta say Commuting & Transport hasn't a problem.

    Why the hell is a thread like this allowed fester in Trains & Rail though?


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