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Item being withheld for not selecting "friends and family of PayPal."

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    #62
    Kraftwerk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 472 ✭✭Kraftwerk


    Whether a legit business or not they're obviously not professional. Asking a customers to breach a payment service terms to avoid paying a transaction fee and then insulting them isn't something any reputable company would do.

    As for who's responsible, it's the business that are responsible for paying any transactional fees. The OP did exactly what any customer should do. Pay via goods and services and request a detailed receipt.

    Given the 5 month wait, the insults and the attempts to weasel out of paying for payment transactions/avoid giving a customer the ability to dispute any issue I'd say this guy is an absolute chancer. OP you'd do well to get the item back without him sabotaging it. Pay the extra, get the item, inspect it thoroughly. Then put up a review to warn the next poor sod that makes the mistake of thinking he's operating a professional service.


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    #63
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,084 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Kraftwerk wrote: »
    Whether a legit business or not they're obviously not professional. Asking a customers to breach a payment service terms to avoid paying a transaction fee and then insulting them isn't something any reputable company would do.

    As for who's responsible, it's the business that are responsible for paying any transactional fees. The OP did exactly what any customer should do. Pay via goods and services and request a detailed receipt.

    Given the 5 month wait, the insults and the attempts to weasel out of paying for payment transactions/avoid giving a customer the ability to dispute any issue I'd say this guy is an absolute chancer. OP you'd do well to get the item back without him sabotaging it. Pay the extra, get the item, inspect it thoroughly. Then put up a review to warn the next poor sod that makes the mistake of thinking he's operating a professional service.

    What payment service term do you keep referring to? I didn’t see it when I had a quick look, but you seem certain it is there, I’d really appreciate a link to what you are basing this on.


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    #64
    Kraftwerk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 472 ✭✭Kraftwerk


    Dav010 wrote: »
    What payment service term do you keep referring to? I didn’t see it when I had a quick look, but you seem certain it is there, I’d really appreciate a link to what you are basing this on.

    "A4.2 A "Personal Transaction" payment involves sending money (initiated from the “Friends and Family” tab of the “Send Money” flow) to, and receiving money into your PayPal Account from, friends and family without making an underlying commercial transaction (that is, the payment is not for the purchase of goods or services or for making any other commercial transaction).

    If you are making a commercial transaction (for instance selling goods or services), you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Transaction payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept any or all payments for Personal Transactions."

    https://www.paypal.com/ie/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full


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    #65
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,084 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Kraftwerk wrote: »
    "A4.2 A "Personal Transaction" payment involves sending money (initiated from the “Friends and Family” tab of the “Send Money” flow) to, and receiving money into your PayPal Account from, friends and family without making an underlying commercial transaction (that is, the payment is not for the purchase of goods or services or for making any other commercial transaction).

    If you are making a commercial transaction (for instance selling goods or services), you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Transaction payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept any or all payments for Personal Transactions."

    https://www.paypal.com/ie/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full

    Thank you.


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    #66
    ToddDameron
    Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭ToddDameron


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Thank you.
    It wasn't rocket science in fairness.


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    #67
    Jim_Hodge
    Registered Users Posts: 10,492 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    ToddDameron wrote: »
    It wasn't rocket science in fairness.

    Then did you quote it to them?


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    #68
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,849 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    This thread is unnecessarily heated, could everyone try tone it down somewhat


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    #69
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    Dav010 wrote: »
    This has been posted a few times, but so far no one has provided a link.

    Could you please link the PayPal t&c which states a business cannot use F&F, I had a quick look when the op was posted, and though I’ll admit it was a quick scan, I couldn’t see the t&c you are referring to so I’d appreciate it if you posted the link.

    Also, considering it is an electronic payment into a bank account, how does F&F aid tax evasion?

    Certainly the buyer gets better protection with G&S, but the op still has the SoGASA to rely on if needs be.


    It's in the user agreement.


    A4.2 A "Personal Transaction" payment involves sending money (initiated from the “Friends and Family” tab of the “Send Money” flow) to, and receiving money into your PayPal Account from, friends and family without making an underlying commercial transaction (that is, the payment is not for the purchase of goods or services or for making any other commercial transaction).

    If you are making a commercial transaction (for instance selling goods or services), you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Transaction payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept any or all payments for Personal Transactions.


    PayPal report business account to revenue, personal accounts are not sent in to revenue. Requesting payment via f+f is a common tactic to avoid PayPal's fees and to avoid declaring income.

    Under no circumstances should a consumer be advised to pay for goods/services using friends and family.


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    #70
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,084 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    It's in the user agreement.


    A4.2 A "Personal Transaction" payment involves sending money (initiated from the “Friends and Family” tab of the “Send Money” flow) to, and receiving money into your PayPal Account from, friends and family without making an underlying commercial transaction (that is, the payment is not for the purchase of goods or services or for making any other commercial transaction).

    If you are making a commercial transaction (for instance selling goods or services), you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Transaction payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept any or all payments for Personal Transactions.


    PayPal report business account to revenue, personal accounts are not sent in to revenue. Requesting payment via f+f is a common tactic to avoid PayPal's fees and to avoid declaring income.

    Yes, another poster kindly provided that link 4 hours ago.

    In the US, income above $20k through PayPal must be reported to the IRS, what is the threshold here in Ireland and did the repair shop meet that threshold?

    And how is it a means of avoiding declaring it? It goes into a bank account, same as if you electronically transferred it using an IBAN given by the business.


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    #71
    mrcheez
    Registered Users Posts: 13,637 ✭✭✭✭mrcheez


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    PayPal report business account to revenue, personal accounts are not sent in to revenue. Requesting payment via f+f is a common tactic to avoid PayPal's fees and to avoid declaring income.

    aye, hence what I was alluding to earlier. A nice way to avoid the taxman and pay the legally required fees for goods and services, while also avoiding culpability for any issues with repairs down the line.

    No chance of Paypal helping you get the money back if repairs go awry.


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    #72
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,084 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    mrcheez wrote: »
    aye, hence what I was alluding to earlier. A nice way to avoid the taxman and pay the legally required fees for goods and services, while also avoiding culpability for any issues with repairs down the line.

    No chance of Paypal helping you get the money back if repairs go awry.

    Under the SOGASA the seller cannot avoid culpability by using any method of payment. The consumers rights is unaffected by the method of payment.

    So far you haven’t shown how this was illegal, despite saying it is, and how this in anyway avoids taxation in any way differently from paying electronically using an IBAN, which I do regularly, isn’t clear.


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    #73
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Yes, another poster kindly provided that link 4 hours ago.

    In the US, income above $20k through PayPal must be reported to the IRS, what is the threshold here in Ireland and did the repair shop meet that threshold?

    And how is it a means of avoiding declaring it? It goes into a bank account, same as if you electronically transferred it using an IBAN given by the business.

    Stop being deliberately obtuse. If you are really that clueless please stop giving people advice, especially advice that is in violation of a services t+c and aids tax evasion.


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    #74
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,084 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    Stop being deliberately obtuse. If you are really that clueless please stop giving people advice, especially advice that is in violation of a services t+c and aids tax evasion.

    What tax evasion? You are the one making that claim. A quick google shows that in the US PayPal informs the IRS if the income goes above $20k per year, you are the one making the statements here, can you back it up?

    If you can, post it. It is not being obtuse to ask that question. Another poster put up info about F&F on business accounts, it’s there, I’m grateful for that as I was as clueless about it. If a seller tries that with readers, now we know what to reply with. But if you/mrcheez are claiming illegality or tax evasion, put up the link.

    The only advice I would give is this, if the op wants the instrument back without further delay, paying the additional 2.9% charge incurred by absentmindedly doing something other than they agreed to, is the quickest way of resolving this. Unless we are talking about an extremely expensive instrument/repair, it’s a small amount. By all means, give a poor review, 5 months is to long to wait even though there may have been extenuating circumstances like getting components if they came from China for an electrical instrument.

    Sometimes the simplest way of resolving an issue is the best.


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    #75
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    Dav010 wrote: »
    What tax evasion? You are the one making that claim. A quick google shows that in the US PayPal informs the IRS if the income goes above $20k per year, you are the one making the statements here, can you back it up?

    If you can, post it. It is not being obtuse to ask that question. Another poster put up info about F&F on business accounts, it’s there, I’m grateful for that as I was as clueless about it. If a seller tries that with readers, now we know what to reply with. But if you/mrcheez are claiming illegality or tax evasion, put up the link.

    The only advice I would give is this, if the op wants the instrument back without further delay, paying the additional 2.9% charge incurred by absentmindedly doing something other than they agreed to, is the quickest way of resolving this. Unless we are talking about an extremely expensive instrument/repair, it’s a small amount. By all means, give a poor review, 5 months is to long to wait even though there may have been extenuating circumstances like getting components if they came from China for an electrical instrument.

    Sometimes the simplest way of resolving an issue is the best.

    Sometimes it's best to stop digging. You gave bad advice, accept it and stop trying to obfusticate. Under no circumstances should the op facilitate tax evasion and the violation of PayPal's t+s as that can have implications for the op.

    When a business refuses to provide a receipt and asks for payment in a way that revenue may not see then it is not because they are legit.

    PayPal reports income to revenue as part of the real time income reporting. It is irrelevant what the threshold is, you are just trying to move the conversation past your bad advice. If you really want to know how revenue interact with PayPal start a new thread.


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    #76
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,084 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    Sometimes it's best to stop digging. You gave bad advice, accept it and stop trying to obfusticate. Under no circumstances should the op facilitate tax evasion and the violation of PayPal's t+s as that can have implications for the op.

    When a business refuses to provide a receipt and asks for payment in a way that revenue may not see then it is not because they are legit.

    PayPal reports income to revenue as part of the real time income reporting. It is irrelevant what the threshold is, you are just trying to move the conversation past your bad advice. If you really want to know how revenue interact with PayPal start a new thread.

    So where’s the link to PayPal reporting to Revenue and how does paying either way on PayPal support tax evasion?

    By the way, according to the ccpc, there is no obligation to provide a receipt, an invoice will do as proof of purchase.

    https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/shopping/buying-goods/buying-goods/

    You’ve made your claim, back it up or stop making these claims.

    My advice is for the op to accept he/she made an absentminded mistake, and do what is quickest and easiest to resolve the matter, you may see that as bad advice, but the alternative is going to needlessly drag the issue out longer.


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    #77
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    Dav010 wrote: »
    So where’s the link to PayPal reporting to Revenue and how does paying either way on PayPal support tax evasion?

    By the way, according to the ccpc, there is no obligation to provide a receipt, an invoice will do as proof of purchase.

    https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/shopping/buying-goods/buying-goods/

    You’ve made your claim, back it up or stop making these claims.

    See my previous post.


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    #78
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,084 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    See my previous post.

    Your previous post has nothing to back it up, you are speculating on the legitimacy and tax compliance of a business. Post the links to support your opinion.

    The ccpc site does not mention legitimacy in relation to obligation to provide a receipt, in fact it states an invoice will do.

    Googling PayPal reporting to Revenue doesn’t show any sites which confirm this, no doubt you can provide one, though there is mention of a threshold on the PayPal user agreement. Also, tell me again how using either method on PayPal, both of which pay into the shops bank account, aids tax evasion.

    This is just going around in a tired circle, put the links up and it’s all over.


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    #79
    mrcheez
    Registered Users Posts: 13,637 ✭✭✭✭mrcheez


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    Stop being deliberately obtuse. If you are really that clueless please stop giving people advice, especially advice that is in violation of a services t+c and aids tax evasion.

    That poster has been obsessively posting to this thread since 8am this morning.. I think it's probably best just to stop responding as this thread will drag on until midnight tomorrow :rolleyes:


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    #80
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,084 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    mrcheez wrote: »
    That poster has been obsessively posting to this thread since 8am this morning.. I think it's probably best just to stop responding as this thread will drag on until midnight tomorrow :rolleyes:

    You do realise that my post at 8am was in response to your one even earlier?

    Did you manage to find that law which the seller broke? And please don’t say tax evasion without something to substantiate it.


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    #81
    Low Energy Eng
    Registered Users Posts: 297 ✭✭Low Energy Eng


    It's cringy reading people saying this is tax evasion. It's got nothing to do with the situation and it is pure speculation.

    Someone else posted it but I reckon the repair company spelt it out in black and white to pay as f&f. It's the only reason I can think why they got so cheeky about it. The OP probably knew well what they were doing when processing the payment.


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    #82
    ToddDameron
    Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭ToddDameron


    Low Energy Eng wrote: »
    It's cringy reading people saying this is tax evasion. It's got nothing to do with the situation and it is pure speculation.

    Someone else posted it but I reckon the repair company spelt it out in black and white to pay as f&f. It's the only reason I can think why they got so cheeky about it. The OP probably knew well what they were doing when processing the payment.

    We had a phone call one morning where he said the job is done, talked a bit about the logistics of collecting it with the restrictions, and he said at the end of the call select friends and family when paying. I was at work so didn't get around to paying until later that night, I also had to set up a PayPal account.

    I then went online and deliberately selected the wrong payment to cause an inconvenience for us both just so I could start a thread here.


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    #83
    Pkiernan
    Registered Users Posts: 4,315 ✭✭✭Pkiernan


    A business requesting F&F pay pal payment obviously has no intention of standing over what services or goods it is offering .


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    #84
    L1m1tless
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,164 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1m1tless


    Using F+F for a business transaction is technically fraud.

    This business sounds very unprofessional.


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