Item being withheld for not selecting "friends and family of PayPal."

ToddDameron

Hi,

I've recently used a repair shop for an item, and upon completion they requested I pay through Paypal and send as a "friend." I absent-mindedly clicked goods and services and they incurred a small fee, which they are now saying I will have to pay before I can collect the item. PayPal is willing to reverse the fee but only if they request it, which for some reason they don't want to do. They also said that the Paypal receipt is my receipt, even though I asked for a detailed receipt will a breakdown of the work carried out. Anyway, they are a legit business or are supposed to be, but I'm a bit annoyed they are throwing a strop over a couple of euro, which I will pay as a last course of action. Should I just pay up and forget about it?

Edit: Title should read "friends and family" on PayPal.

Uncle Pierre

First thing I'll say is that if they're a properly legit business, they probably wouldn't be asking you to pay as "friends and family" on PayPal in the first place, and they shouldn't have an issue with giving you a proper receipt of their own either.

But having said that, if they asked you to pay that way and you didn't have an issue with it, but then you mistakenly paid a different way that incurred an extra fee, then I'd say you should pay that fee yourself. I know I would, particularly if the fee is only small anyway. But maybe that's just me.....

If you pay as friends/family and there is something wrong with the repair work. PayPal will not assist you in getting money back as essentially the money is a gift.

Uncle Pierre

^^^

That's a valid point too, and another reason to pay the fee to have the transaction remain as being for goods or services. Think of it as a form of insurance.

ToddDameron

I didn't think of that either. What I might do is pay the difference in cash then, rather than having PayPal change the status of the transfer. Cheers.

seagull

Any business asking you to pay via friends/family is generally screaming scam.

IAmTheReign

ToddDameron wrote: »

Hi,

I've recently used a repair shop for an item, and upon completion they requested I pay through Paypal and send as a "friend." I absent-mindedly clicked goods and services and they incurred a small fee, which they are now saying I will have to pay before I can collect the item. PayPal is willing to reverse the fee but only if they request it, which for some reason they don't want to do. They also said that the Paypal receipt is my receipt, even though I asked for a detailed receipt will a breakdown of the work carried out. Anyway, they are a legit business or are supposed to be, but I'm a bit annoyed they are throwing a strop over a couple of euro, which I will pay as a last course of action. Should I just pay up and forget about it?

Edit: Title should read "friends and family" on PayPal.

I sell quite a few things online and I can tell you this kind of behaviour is totally against Paypals TOS. Even requesting that you pay through F&F for a business transaction is enough for Paypal to block their account. I would suggest pointing this out to them might be enough to get them to cope on over a few Euro.

ToddDameron

seagull wrote: »

Any business asking you to pay via friends/family is generally screaming scam.

They are well-reviewed and highly rated, I had them recommended by a number of people. It's been a fairly poor experience overall though, it's taken 5 months to do the repair and the message I received was very unprofessional- "we have been charged a fee as you somehow selected the wrong payment option, it's not rocket science." I just want the item back with as little hassle as possible, and I'll put it down to financial strain due to covid, but I'm not impressed and won't be using them again.

Uncle Pierre

Have to say it sounds suspicious to me all the same. Only time I was ever asked to pay for anything on PayPal that way was for a certain TV-related service which we're not allowed discuss on Boards (and to be honest, which I'm a bit dubious about referring to in even this sideways manner, for fear the rules on it are even stricter than I realise).

Their reluctance to give a proper receipt is an even bigger flag for me.

But having said all that, if all OP really wants is to get the item back, then the most straightforward thing to do is really just pay the fee, particularly if it's only a few quid, and chalk it all down as a learning experience.

Darc19

The bank would charge a fee for lodging cash, the card processor would charge a fee for paying by card and PayPal charge a fee for their services.

I wouldn't back down as you have protection against defective work.

The fee is 2.9%

What is the issue here?

Op, you were informed that payment should be made in this way, but you didn’t do it. If they incur an additional charge because you made a mistake and didn’t pay they way you were supposed to, and they will release your goods when you reimburse them for that charge, the way forward would seem obvious to most.

Bikerman2019

How much are we talking about ? Could also be a way to protect against fraudulant paypal chargebacks. Paypal allow chargebacks and dont look to hard at the reasons.


If you agreed to pay 100 euro, by friends and family, the other side gets 100 euro.



If you then send it a different way and they get less, then they are not getting 100 euro so you pay the difference.


As you said yourself, you "absently mindedly" did different to the agreement.

neris

If they are legit LTD company look them up on the CRO website to see if they are registered and if not a tip off to revenue might sort out their dodgy practices in future

Bikerman2019

neris wrote: »

If they are legit LTD company look them up on the CRO website to see if they are registered and if not a tip off to revenue might sort out their dodgy practices in future

There is nothing dodgy about agreeing a price and then rejecting less.

neris

neris wrote: »

If they are legit LTD company look them up on the CRO website to see if they are registered and if not a tip off to revenue might sort out their dodgy practices in future

Being on the CRO register does not guarantee trustworthiness nor tax compliance. The op isn’t paying in cash, the money is being transferred electronically into the service providers account, hard to hide that from Revenue.

IAmTheReign

Dav010 wrote: »

What is the issue here?

Op, you were informed that payment should be made in this way, but you didn’t do it. If they incur an additional charge because you made a mistake and didn’t pay they way you were supposed to, and they will release your goods when you reimburse them for that charge, the way forward would seem obvious to most.

The issue is that refusing to issue a receipt and paying as friends & family on Paypal leaves the consumer with absolutely zero recourse if something goes wrong.

It's also totally against Paypals rules for a seller to do this. You cannot use F&F for a business transaction for the exact reason given above.

Bikerman2019 wrote: »

There is nothing dodgy about agreeing a price and then rejecting less.

The OP has paid the fee agreed. Financial transactions cost money and it's Paypals policy that the seller has to pay the fees, exactly the same as if he had paid with a credit card. If you paid for something with your Visa card would you just pay up if you were told to top up the transaction 3% in cash? I doubt it.

Xterminator

Hi OP

A couple of things have happened here.

1. your short changed them a couple of euro from the agreed price.

2. Under paypals t's&c's you now have a lot more clout, you could potentially get your money back if you claimed service wasn't as advertised etc. IE you have exposed them to more risk.

To sum up, you made an agreement on how to pay, and what the terms would be etc and you inadvertently broke the agreement, and now you are annoyed at them ? For real? If you shortchanged the supermarket a few euro for your weekly shop and they objected would you get annoyed with them?

Its your bad, and the onus is on you to make it right.

Xterminator

IAmTheReign wrote: »

The issue is that refusing to issue a receipt and paying as friends & family on Paypal leaves the consumer with absolutely zero recourse if something goes wrong.

It's also totally against Paypals rules for a seller to do this. You cannot use F&F for a business transaction for the exact reason given above.

No the issue is that the OP said okay, lets do the friends and family thing, then failed to keep his word.

you are correct about how it works, but OP cannot make a deal then change the terms of the deal unilaterally and short change the merchant.

OP can refuse to go friends and family in the 1st place, and perhaps pay merchant cash etc. But you cant make a deal then break it.

IAmTheReign

IAmTheReign wrote: »

The issue is that refusing to issue a receipt and paying as friends & family on Paypal leaves the consumer with absolutely zero recourse if something goes wrong.

It's also totally against Paypals rules for a seller to do this. You cannot use F&F for a business transaction for the exact reason given above.



The OP has paid the fee agreed. Financial transactions cost money and it's Paypals policy that the seller has to pay the fees, exactly the same as if he had paid with a credit card. If you paid for something with your Visa card would you just pay up if you were told to top up the transaction 3% in cash? I doubt it.

Are you sure about this?

Your consumer rights are not dependent on having a receipt, and not having one does not mean you have zero recourse under the SoGASA.

While PayPal advise buyers to use G&S payment because it provides for payment protection, I wasn’t aware a seller was prohibited from using F&F payment, can you link where it is against the rules for a business to do this?

L1011

Dav010 wrote: »

In relation to the last line of your post, some businesses charge more for payment by CC.

Not legal (on the standard cards) for nearly 3 years, even if its still being done.

Miaireland

I would pay the charge/fee via the friend and family section in Paypal rather than change the status of the amount you paid. You currently have the backup of paypal for the main fee if something is wrong with the repair.

I would pay the extra charge online rather than in cash as you have a paper trial if ever needed. I think it is the easiest way to get your item back

Sonic the Shaghog

OP this crowd isnt doing repairs on a bike by any chance?

kennethsmyth

Dav010 wrote: »

What is the issue here?

Op, you were informed that payment should be made in this way, but you didn’t do it. If they incur an additional charge because you made a mistake and didn’t pay they way you were supposed to, and they will release your goods when you reimburse them for that charge, the way forward would seem obvious to most.

The business is not using a business paypal account, this is against paypals terms of service - it doesnt matter if the op paid differently - any decent business would not be trying to circumvent this with shady methods. I'd do as another has said and tell the business to give back my item or you're going to paypal with evidence and account will be suspended.

ToddDameron

Xterminator wrote: »

Hi OP

A couple of things have happened here.

1. your short changed them a couple of euro from the agreed price.

2. Under paypals t's&c's you now have a lot more clout, you could potentially get your money back if you claimed service wasn't as advertised etc. IE you have exposed them to more risk.

To sum up, you made an agreement on how to pay, and what the terms would be etc and you inadvertently broke the agreement, and now you are annoyed at them ? For real? If you shortchanged the supermarket a few euro for your weekly shop and they objected would you get annoyed with them?

Its your bad, and the onus is on you to make it right.

I'm not sure you read the OP, Paypal is willing to change the status of the payment and return the fee, but seller refuses to initiate this. Only they can initiate this. Your supermarket comparison is nonsensical because of this, it's like me laying down the money and the cashier refusing to pick it up because they want it straight into their hand. I'm annoyed that they didn't make an effort to try this first, as it's a minor inconvenience. PayPal wrote back to me within 2 hours and had reviewed the case, it could have been fixed in no time.

They wouldn't give me a receipt detailing the work they have done, I need to see this because it seems there were a lot of components involved in the repair, it makes me feel as they aren't confident in the work they have done. If a component breaks, I'm worried that they will just say it wasn't part of the repair.

They also pissed me off by ranting about it despite spending an insane amount of time on the job, 5 months in total, and I had a lot of patience with them, something they should have considered when confronting me about a few quid. Implying that a customer is thick isn't an acceptable course of action for any business.

If it gives me more clout as you say, then I'm going to pay the difference rather than change the type of payment, as I no longer trust them after the comments here from people who know far more about PayPal than I do. As for being annoyed, I think there are justifiable reasons to be.

ToddDameron

Sonic the Shaghog wrote: »

OP this crowd isnt doing repairs on a bike by any chance?

No, musical instruments. 5 months is unheard of really. I should have travelled further and used the company I have experience with, lesson learned.

Pkiernan

Op... don't mind the usual suspects on here who are just looking to give you grief. They have poor comprehension skills.

I'd pay the fee, vigorously inspect the repair and if unhappy use PayPal protection to the full.

I'd also leave an accurate review of your experience quoting their rocket science jibe on every common review platform.

This might be useful to someone. I regularly buy/sell online and find its easier to pay goods/service and just add the fee to the payment. The link below is to a payment calculator I've been using for years.

https://www.clothnappytree.com/ppcalculator/

mrcheez

The repair company should have just added the Paypal fee onto their own fee rather than ask the customer to pay in an unorthodox manner... it's not rocket science

mrcheez

mrcheez wrote: »

The repair company should have just added the Paypal fee onto their own fee rather than ask the customer to pay in an unorthodox manner... it's not rocket science

There is no guarantee the op would have followed that payment method correctly either. I do agree with you though, it certainly isn’t rocket science.

mrcheez

Dav010 wrote: »

There is no guarantee the op would have followed that payment method correctly either.

they can also set up a Pay With Paypal button on their website. Literally plug and play.

mrcheez

mrcheez wrote: »

they can also set up a Pay With Paypal button on their website. Literally plug and play.

Isn’t that more useful where you shop for fixed cost items and then pay for your basket at the end? Repairs may not have fixed prices, I would suspect it depends on components and labour costs.

mrcheez

Dav010 wrote: »

Isn’t that more useful where you shop for fixed cost items and then pay for your basket at the end? Repairs may not have fixed prices, I would suspect it depends on components and labour costs.

nah can be customised with a form easily... regardless even if the op had accidentally paid via Friends the supplier would still not be shortchanged as the Paypal fee was included to cover the Services method

CramCycle

Dav010 wrote: »

There is no guarantee the op would have followed that payment method correctly either. I do agree with you though, it certainly isn’t rocket science.

But if they had the fee covered in their charge, then it really wouldn't matter to the company.

Low Energy Eng

To me, it sounds like they've lost money on this repair.
Still doesn't justify their attitude though.

CramCycle

Low Energy Eng wrote: »

To me, it sounds like they've lost money on this repair.
Still doesn't justify their attitude though.

Probably, which means they are struggling to be competitive of the PayPal fee is an issue on one sale. That's no the OPs issue and a smart business person would see the stupidity of bickering over it for one sale. they need to increase their margin, significantly if that is the issue, but again, not the OPs issue.

OP, pay the few euro, get your stuff, never go back, its not really worth anymore hassle if they are tight over what is very little in the end and if they don't learn soon, they are unlikely to be around much longer anyway.

ToddDameron

Dav010 wrote: »

There is no guarantee the op would have followed that payment method correctly either. I do agree with you though, it certainly isn’t rocket science.

Well there are only two outcomes in that scenario, they get paid what they asked or they get paid even more money.

ToddDameron

ToddDameron wrote: »

Well there are only two outcomes in that scenario, they get paid what they asked or they get paid even more money.

Actually there is three, you mistakenly use the wrong payment method and they neither get paid what they asked nor more money, that is the scenario you came to the forum with.

ToddDameron

What? If they include the transaction fee in the bill then how can they possibly end up short changed? They can only receive what I sent them with PayPal taking the fee (which they have accounted for) or if I select the wrong payment they get an extra few quid. You quite clearly have no clue what you are talking about.

ToddDameron

ToddDameron wrote: »

What? If they include the transaction fee in the bill then how can they possibly end up short changed?

Their fee was based on you paying a certain way, you agreed but made a mistake which reduces the amount paid to them. Where is the issue here?

ToddDameron

Dav010 wrote: »

Their fee was based on you paying a certain way, you agreed but made a mistake which reduces the amount paid to them. Where is the issue here?

Somebody said if they include the fee in the bill this wouldn't happen. You said it could still happen. Explain how.

The original issue is that the money is there for them to claim from PayPal, but they won't make the effort. Meaning I pay the fee twice.

ToddDameron

ToddDameron wrote: »

Somebody said if they include the fee in the bill this wouldn't happen. You said it could still happen. Explain how.

They obviously hadn’t included the PayPal fee in your case. Isn’t that why they are requesting the additional fee to cover PayPal charge? You agreed to use a payment method which would not cause them to incur a fee, then mistaken used one that did. Why are you complaining? You stated in your op that it was you who made the mistake.

ToddDameron

Dav010 wrote: »

They obviously hadn’t included the fee in your case. Isn’t that why they are requesting the additional fee to cover PayPal charge? You agreed to use a payment method which would not cause them to incur a fee, then mistaken used one that did. Why are you complaining? You stated in your op that it was you who made the mistake.

Are you seriously not understanding? Somebody said in future they should include the fee in the charge. And you said I could still select the wrong payment option and short change them. Explain how that works in that scenario?

In my case the fee is there for them to retrieve if they want it. But they want me to pay twice. I can't really dumb it down any further for you. Sorry.

Bikerman2019

ToddDameron wrote: »

Somebody said if they include the fee in the bill this wouldn't happen. You said it could still happen. Explain how.

The original issue is that the money is there for them to claim from PayPal, but they won't make the effort. Meaning I pay the fee twice.

The money is NOT there to claim. They claim what is there, but paypal takes their cut so they do not get 100 euro.


You agreed to pay an amount, paid a way that gives them ----100

---

euro. Then you broke the agreement and paid a different way which changed what they get.


I am starting to think this was no accident and you did this deliberately.


Cancel the payment and just give them the money. Stop arsing around.

ToddDameron

Bikerman2019 wrote: »

The money is NOT there to claim. They claim what is there, but paypal takes their cut so they do not get 100 euro.


You agreed to pay an amount, paid a way that gives them ----100

---

euro. Then you broke the agreement and paid a different way which changed what they get.


I am starting to think this was no accident and you did this deliberately.


Cancel the payment and just give them the money. Stop arsing around.

Read the op, PayPal have agreed to change the status of the payment and return the fee to them.

Bikerman2019

Maybe a moderator could change the title to say something like:


I broke my payment agreement which reduces the payment they get, but now the other side wont accept my change"

ToddDameron

Is that genuinely your comprehension of the situation or are you just trolling? The fee is there if they want it. Can't really make it any clearer.

ToddDameron

ToddDameron wrote: »

Are you seriously not understanding? Somebody said in future they should include the fee in the charge. And you said I could still select the wrong payment option and short change them. Explain how that works in that scenario?

In my case the fee is there for them to retrieve if they want it. But they want me to pay twice. I can't really dumb it down any further for you. Sorry.

Actually I said there is no guarantee you would be able to follow any payment method requested considering you were unable to follow the original one.

Dav010 wrote: »

There is no guarantee the op would have followed that payment method correctly either. I do agree with you though, it certainly isn’t rocket science.

The fee you paid is there for them, but they receive less than you agreed because you couldn’t follow through on the agreed method of payment. They have incurred charges that were not included in the invoice because you were agreed to pay through F&F.

ToddDameron

Dav010 wrote: »

Actually I said there is no guarantee you would be able to follow any payment method requested considering you were unable to follow the original one.


The fee you paid is there for them, but they receive less than you agreed because you couldn’t follow through on the agreed method of payment. They have incurred charges that were not included in the invoice because you were agreed to pay through F&F.

If I selected either option in that scenario, how can they end up short changed if the fee is included in their price?

Oh my god. PayPal have agree to refund them the difference on request, you can't be serious.

runawaybishop

Using F+F for business transactions is against Paypals t+cs. No legit business should be requesting payment this way as it provides absolutely no protection for the buyer and can be used to evade tax.

Op, do not change to a F+f payment under any circumstances.

Bikerman2019

ToddDameron wrote: »

If I selected either option in that scenario, how can they end up short changed if the fee is included in their price?

Oh my god. PayPal have agree to refund them the difference on request, you can't be serious.

If I agree to do something for you for 100 euro in magic beans, or 100 euro in 1 cent coins and you agree, that is an agreement.



You can faff around all you like but if you dont like it, dont agree to it. You can break the agreement if you wish, but I will decide if your change is acceptable.

Bikerman2019

runawaybishop wrote: »

Using F+F for business transactions is against Paypals t+cs. No legit business should be requesting payment this way as it provides absolutely no protection for the buyer and can be used to evade tax.

Op, do not change to a F+f payment under any circumstances.

What you are suggesting is ignore your agreement and do it whatever way you want. Accordingly, be prepared to not get your stuff.


Dont go back on / change / lie in an agreement you do not intend to keep to. (delete as applicable.)