Picard 1x04 - "Absolute Candour" [ SPOILERS WITHIN ]

Spear · 19-02-2020 11:43am

Johnny Storm wrote: »

+1
Same with the way he appears to have treated Ralphie (or whatever her name is)

He's mockingly referred to as the Hermit of LeBarre, so it seems he pretty much retreated inwards and cut off contact with pretty much everyone.

Stark · 19-02-2020 11:50am

AllForIt wrote: »

Totally agree. I had a hectic lifestyle in the late 90's so I could only pop into DS9 and Voyager now and again. Although I was a little bit lost with DS9 at times I did enjoy the occasional self contained episode's, but Voyager was better for that.

Discovery had only one episodic episode I can recall, the one where an antagonist went round in circles in a time loop hoping to get a different result each time. I enjoyed that episode. That was more like the Trek I enjoy.

And no matter how better Picard could possibly become, you can't just pop back and watch the odd episode like you can with Voyager or DS9. I know Voyager was not that popular in the Star Trek community but I do have my favorites like 'Counterpoint' and others that weren't particularly highly rated.

I've been thinking about this with a lot of shows.

I originally was more a fan of Voyager than DS9 as in the days before streaming services, it was easier to tune into an episode of Voyager and catch up quickly on the story. DS9, I could tell I was watching something good, but at the same time was mostly lost as to what was going on.

That said, after catching up on the run of DS9, I think DS9 structured its episodes well. Even the episodes that are focused on the overall arc are still fairly self contained, preferring to focus on one or two characters and giving a good resolution to their part in the story by the end of the episode.

Contrast with something like Game of Thrones which is impossible to rewatch without committing to a season. Each episode consisting of a few minutes from Jon's story, Cersei's story, Daenery's story, Caitlyn's story, Arya's story, Brienne's story etc. You never get satisfaction by the end of the episode.

Evade wrote:

The other problem with the 10 episode arc is that if you don't like the premise you're out of luck. If you didn't like the premise of an episode of Star Trek before you'd probably get one you liked more the next week.

Yup. First 10 episodes of TNG and DS9 were extremely ropey but it didn't matter because they had plenty of time to develop into something great. My biggest worry for Picard is they run out of runway before it gets to that point. At least it's already renewed for second season so that's something. Don't have to worry about them doing a "Firefly" on it.

silverharp · 19-02-2020 11:53am

Its cheaper to make a series based around 1 running story , so they are motivated to make them that way

H3llR4iser · 19-02-2020 12:43pm

silverharp wrote: »

Its cheaper to make a series based around 1 running story , so they are motivated to make them that way

And should I add - it's a staple of the "soapification" of every single TV series, paired with cramming forced romance and "relationship drama" into everything in order to attract as widespread an audience base as possible and with it, revenue. Worked for soaps all over the world for 60+ years, it's working for series now.

pixelburp · 19-02-2020 1:01pm

Don't entirely blame studios for going serialised, Science Fiction has always been expensive to make; given it often means new sets, cast, locations and FX every episode. That's super expensive and a helluva waste, asking a lot of any production team. It's no wonder teams often re-used that one cave or village set in various iterations of Trek.

I think there's a happy medium to be struck between procedural and serialised story-telling, but TBH if push came to shove, I prefer the latter. While once off stories can be fun, I like the "novelisation" of TV to the point where you're going on a journey with characters - that investment works for me. On the flip-side, aggressive procedural series like TNG jarred in how quickly big moments, characters or incidents were just ignored. I've said it before, Picard becoming a Borg would have been an entire season's worth of storytelling, yet in the cold light of day was a "thing" for... what? 1, 2 episodes max? Not saying they should have had 20 episodes of Picard's leadership questioned, but it could have been a factor without derailing the entire thrust of the show. And arguably, romantic stories came off even worse: characters falling deeply in love, heartbroken by the roll of the credits, only to be back to their happy single self next episode. Again, I'm not saying there should have been episodes of Riker wallowing after the events of The Outcast, but it should have tweaked the character a little.

DS9 probably struck the right balance - hey, do you get the impression that's my favourite Trek show? lol - finding a nice equilibrium where you still had those once off stories, but they would still slowly nudge a character forward. Like, I don't think that brilliant Quark-Odo friendship & rivalry would have been so satisfying were it not for those isolated stories where they had to work together.

Evade · 19-02-2020 1:28pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Don't entirely blame studios for going serialised, Science Fiction has always been expensive to make; given it often means new sets, cast, locations and FX every episode. That's super expensive and a helluva waste, asking a lot of any production team. It's no wonder teams often re-used that one cave or village set in various iterations of Trek.

While that is all true, Picard doesn't seem to be skimping on sets and locations. Just off the top of my head the main recurring ones are

The three(?) La Sirena sets
The four or five Artifact sets
The Chateaux Picard interior sets

And then there are sets/ locations with only one or two uses so far. Some might be revisited but I'd guess not more that once or twice again.

Daystrom interior(s) and exterior
Starfleet HQ interior(s) and exterior
Dahj's apartment
Chateaux Picard grounds
Ten Forward
Night time street
The big plaza Dahj tracked Picard to
The roof Dahj died on
A few sets on Vashti
I'm sure Freecloud will have a few in the next episode
Vasquez Rocks and the trailer

Mollyb60 · 19-02-2020 2:23pm

Problems (all of which I'm sure have already been mentioned):
Why the hyper sexualised incesty thing between evil Romulan and his "sister". It's weird. And unnecessary.
And they need to stop telegraphing his future good guy flip. It's ridiculously obvious.

I understand the 'JL' thing but christ it's just lazy writing. Yes, we understand she has a close relationship with him. No need to wedge in a cutsie nickname too. Ugh. A lot of the writing has been clunky imo. Especially Dajh's dialogue.

Could the 'Next time on Picard' trailers please stop giving away all the spoilers? The 'oh no it's an ambush' thing was not necessary. FFS just let me have a bit of surprise.

Picard seems to be an absolute dick to his mates over the last 20 years. Abandoned the kid, didn't even call his mate Rafi to check on her after he basically destroyed her career. Just walked away and set up camp in his fancy chateaux. Nice one. And tearing down that 'Romulans Only' sign is just asking for trouble. And then he acts all surprised when they square up to him?

The accents. Oh god the accents. Why has one of the holograms got an irish accent? No need for it. Especially when they already have an irish Romulan.

Doctor lady is just gonna be Picard's Tilly. Why do they need a Tilly in all the shows these days? It's not cute, it's infuriating.

Good points - eerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmmmmm I do love Patrick Stewart.

19-02-2020 3:03pm

Her calling him Jean Luc, while in active service, would have been enough.

AFAIR only Beverly did that, on a regular basis

H3llR4iser · 19-02-2020 3:19pm

Mollyb60 wrote: »

Doctor lady is just gonna be Picard's Tilly. Why do they need a Tilly in all the shows these days? It's not cute, it's infuriating.

Misplaced "audience proxy" thinking - the writers think she is a character the audience, or at least a certain portion of they audience, will identify with.

We've seen too little of Agnes Jurati to tell so far, but in the case of Tilly, it's an idiotic idea that shows the Disco writers don't know the audience they're pandering to.

We had this kind of character before - none other than Lieutenant JG Reginald Barclay: initially, he was thought out as a running joke, a satire about Star Trek fans and their obsessiveness.

He was socially awkward, anxiety ridden, unpopular and prone to addictions (e.g. the holodeck); at the same time, he was genuinely knowledgeable and technically gifted, yet pretty much everyone belittled him, dismissed his ideas/concerns and overlooked his achievements based on his social and emotional stand.

The result was that millions of kids, teenagers and even adults watching TNG could easily identify themselves with Reginald Barclay - stereotypes exist for a reason. He became a fan favorite, to the point the writers started giving him occasional redemption (he was instrumental in bringing Voyager back).

With Tilly, the writers don't understand they're going exactly the opposite way - she's shown to have pretty much similar "character faults" to Barclay, yet everyone around her thinks she's great, takes her seriously and keep telling her she's destined for a "bright future". She is, basically, a popular kid character - that one each of us knew in school that had everybody fawning about how "great" she/he was, for no good reason whatsoever.

Evade · 19-02-2020 3:28pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Her calling him Jean Luc, while in active service, would have been enough.

AFAIR only Beverly did that, on a regular basis

It's been used more often than not in a Star Trek series to establish a character has a close relationship with their commander. Bones almost always called Kirk Jim, Beverly used Jean-Luc as above, and both Daxes called Sisko Ben. If Tuvok wasn't a Vulcan he might have dropped a Katherine in private, even at that Chakotay did it once or twice.

Then in Enterprise you have a person who almost always prefers to go by their nickname but none of the engineering crew call Tucker Trip. I don't think any of the lower ranked main cast called him Trip either now that I think of it.

Though there is a way it could have worked, if Rafi was and alien and "jayelle" was a term of respect in her native language. You might think that it'd be clunky to get that across but those alien language scenes they're so fond of lately could have done it and actually have had a reason to exist.

Picard: *Does the wine scene in her language with subtitles*
Rafi: Jayelle *subtitle has it as an honorific of some sort or even a translators note would do*
And from then on you don't need the subtitle because it's been explained.

Something like that would also do more to get across their deeper relationship than anything we've gotten so far.

pah · 19-02-2020 4:17pm

H3llR4iser wrote: »

. She is, basically, a popular kid character - that one each of us knew in school that had everybody fawning about how "great" she/he was, for no good reason whatsoever.

The kind of kid who got a medal for coming 9th in a 10 person race. generation fluff

AMKC · 19-02-2020 9:32pm

AllForIt wrote: »

Totally agree. I had a hectic lifestyle in the late 90's so I could only pop into DS9 and Voyager now and again. Although I was a little bit lost with DS9 at times I did enjoy the occasional self contained episode's, but Voyager was better for that.

Discovery had only one episodic episode I can recall, the one where an antagonist went round in circles in a time loop hoping to get a different result each time. I enjoyed that episode. That was more like the Trek I enjoy.

And no matter how better Picard could possibly become, you can't just pop back and watch the odd episode like you can with Voyager or DS9. I know Voyager was not that popular in the Star Trek community but I do have my favorites like 'Counterpoint' and others that weren't particularly highly rated.

Discovery had only one episodic episode I can recall, the one where an antagonist went round in circles in a time loop hoping to get a different result each time. I enjoyed that episode. That was more like the Trek I enjoy.

That was Evil Harry Mudd and I think it was him that was controlling the time loop just have fun because he felt like it. It is quite a fun episode alright.

TheValeyard · 19-02-2020 10:08pm

AMKC wrote: »

Discovery had only one episodic episode I can recall, the one where an antagonist went round in circles in a time loop hoping to get a different result each time. I enjoyed that episode. That was more like the Trek I enjoy.

That was Evil Harry Mudd and I think it was him that was controlling the time loop just have fun because he felt like it. It is quite a fun episode alright.

Ah, the many deaths of Captain Lorca. That was fun.

19-02-2020 10:11pm

AMKC wrote: »

Discovery had only one episodic episode I can recall, the one where an antagonist went round in circles in a time loop hoping to get a different result each time. I enjoyed that episode. That was more like the Trek I enjoy.

That was Evil Harry Mudd and I think it was him that was controlling the time loop just have fun because he felt like it. It is quite a fun episode alright.

I really enjoyed that episode

_Kaiser_ · 20-02-2020 9:16am

I think this review perfectly covers most of the issues of the last 4 episodes, as well as being pretty funny generally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHLYtcgZGpg

Johnny Storm · 20-02-2020 10:56am

Mollyb60 wrote: »

Why the hyper sexualised incesty thing between evil Romulan and his "sister". It's weird. And unnecessary.

Trying to drag in the Game of Thrones demographic?

Johnny Storm · 20-02-2020 10:57am

Deleted User wrote: »

Her calling him Jean Luc, while in active service, would have been enough.

AFAIR only Beverly did that, on a regular basis

Bev always called him John Luc for some reason

Rawr · 20-02-2020 10:59am

Johnny Storm wrote: »

Bev always called him John Luc for some reason

Screenshot-2020-01-22-at-11.47.21-AM.png

TomSweeney · 22-02-2020 11:33pm

So Romulan women are wearing the hijab now ... and they are refugees - are they even trying to hide their analogy ??

Yes PAtrick Stewart - Brexit BAD, Trump Bad !! people against open borders - RACIST!!!

Remember when Star TRek was a show about the 24th century and not a virtue signal political borefest..

tromtipp · 23-02-2020 12:15pm

Long memory obviously, all the way back to a suppressed and almost forgotten first series in the early 1960s, before TOS came in with all its virtue signalling stuff about nuclear war, overpopulation, fascism, racism etc etc

23-02-2020 1:34pm

TomSweeney wrote: »

Remember when Star TRek was a show about the 24th century and not a virtue signal political borefest..

No, actually

pixelburp · 23-02-2020 1:43pm

Is it just a union obligation at this stage or something, where it's contracted there must be a tone deaf moan about politics in Trek? But then here I come I suppose, scoffing at the irony, right on cue so *shrug*

I don't even remember an bleedin' "hijab" anyway TBH, but then I wasn't watching the episode looking for Subtexts to get annoyed at. The Text had more than enough on that front

Stark · 24-02-2020 9:18am

Looked more like the habits than nuns wear (which makes sense as they were "nuns") than hijabs to me.

Reminds me of replying to someone with a gif of the nun from game of thrones and "Shame!" written next to it and getting a reply about muslims and some such.

pah · 02-03-2020 7:13pm

TomSweeney wrote: »

So Romulan women are wearing the hijab now ... and they are refugees - are they even trying to hide their analogy ??

Yes PAtrick Stewart - Brexit BAD, Trump Bad !! people against open borders - RACIST!!!

Remember when Star TRek was a show about the 24th century and not a virtue signal political borefest..

Yes

Nesta99 · 09-03-2020 8:17pm

I think too much is being read in to this series being a commentary on contemporary political issues. I didnt take the 'hijab' as anything more than a scarf or headdress or that Romulan refugees are just ST universe refugees. What next, calling out the old regular comic relief comments on Vulcan/Romulan pointy ears or Cardassian 'spoonheads' as akin to comments on East-Asian eyes?

Bobtheman · 10-03-2020 10:00pm

Star trek TOS was political before political tv full scale arrived. All SF is about us today for all writing is auto biographical.
Even in STNG it was about glasnost. The kllingon/federation alliance etc = USA/Russia

Picard 1x04 - "Absolute Candour" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

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Picard 1x04 - "Absolute Candour" [ SPOILERS WITHIN ]