Bridge from Scotland to Northern Ireland

cgcsb · 01-03-2018 8:07pm

Skedaddle wrote: »

Why would an independent Scotland want that?

Pop Scotland: 5.295 million
Pop Ireland: 6.484 million (Republic 4.773m NI : 1.811m)

With 11.879 million in Scotland and Ireland, you're still looking at only the size of either Paris or London.

I didn't say it would happen only that it would be more likely to happen because London and the tories have no interest in peripheral regions of the UK, to the point that they are considered foreign.

The Chunnel example is one thing but that was planned and designed in the 1980s. If the issue of a fixed crossing comes up again in say 10 years you're talking an absolutely MASSIVE difference in the technology available and the scale of automation available.

Also it's not so much about populations as it is volumes of trade and volumes of passengers. Dublin-London is the second busiest international air route in the world after Tokyo-Soul despite Dublin being nowhere near mega city status. Japan and South Korea are giving very serious thought to a fixed link and the gap between them would be quite similar to the gap between here and Britain.

youreadthat · 03-03-2018 4:27pm

Skedaddle wrote: »

Even with the relatively enormous population that's in reach of the Channel Tunnel, it took 26 years for the operating company to make a profit.

It was a bit unlucky that low cost air travel exploded in the years following its opening. Plus for such huge projects you need to look at what it does over a much longer time period. Take away the Victorian rail infrastructure from Britain and it would be crippled!

Sam Russell · 04-03-2018 12:41pm

Maybe a link from Dublin to Holyhead which would be 95 km might be a better idea. So might be a better proposition, or Rosslare to St David's at 80 km. When the traffic gets to the UK side, it is not such a long way to centres of population and commerce.

The Dublin to Holyhead would make the most sense (except for Brexit).

Jawgap · 04-03-2018 12:48pm

There simply isn't the population, commercial or industrial density to justify this type of development at any point on the Irish sea, imo.

If you look at the construction history of the EuroTunnel it gives a fair idea of how, even with the best of funding models, these type of projects can spiral out of control.......and that was one to link two of the largest urban areas in Europe while running through some densely populated areas on their respective outskirts.

If we did it, it would hang like a millstone around our neck.

defrule · 04-03-2018 5:21pm

They building a massive bridge between Hong Kong and Macau. While it's cool I can't imagine driving on it, I'd get bored.

sdanseo · 07-03-2018 12:28am

In theory a bridge would be simpler. Millau viaduct in France is up to 270m above the ground. Irish Sea / North Channel are 50-120m deep.

Only problem is the 90.1km from Howth to Holy Island. So um, around 40 of the same viaduct. €395m each gives a cost of €15.8bn

Let's assume the cost was €20bn as per the Wiki page (yes reliable I know)

There were 944k freight units shipped to or from Dublin Port last year, let's be conservative and say that's all the traffic that uses the bridge. Plus let's say 1m cars, going both ways.

If we charged a car €100 each way and a truck €200 each way

944,000 x 200 = €188m
1,000,000 x 100 = €100m

That's around €300m a year just in tolls

At a cost of 20bn it would pay for itself in 66 years. Not bad really. Especially when you consider 90km at 120km/h would take you about 45 mins vs 2 to 4hrs on a boat plus all the associated check in time etc

07-03-2018 12:43am

This whole thread is one big face palm....... and that's being kind

If you're looking for me, I'll be in the "Tunnel to Australia" thread

sdanseo · 07-03-2018 12:48am

I forgot to add itll never happen, just had some time and was bored.

We cant even figure out a 6km tunnel for the DART. A 90km bridge to Wales is an absolute pipe dream.

prinzeugen · 08-03-2018 12:39am

Doubt it will ever happen. Beaufort's Dyke is filled with WW2 live ammunition/bombs etc that was dumped in the late 40's, which will make any bridge/tunnel fun to build.

(1 million tons worth apparently)

I remember the amount of stuff that got washed up on the beaches when they laid the gas pipeline.

An old lad in Scotland went out and collected phosphorus shells/bombs to burn on his fire!

Edit- only read back a few posts. Has been mentioned.

sdanseo · 08-03-2018 1:39am

So um...apparently its happening

(it's a stupid and misleading headline...says theyre thinking about figuring out whether its maybe feasilble)

https://www.irishpost.co.uk/news/scottish-government-gives-go-ahead-bridge-linking-northern-ireland-scotland-150679

JohnC. · 12-06-2018 2:16am

Now that there's an important Brexit voting day coming, it's time for idiots to back this plan again, apparently without thought.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/06/11/boris-johnson-backs-15billion-brexit-bridge-linking-scotland/

marno21 · 12-06-2018 2:35am

JohnC. wrote: »

Now that there's an important Brexit voting day coming, it's time for idiots to back this plan again, apparently without thought.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/06/11/boris-johnson-backs-15billion-brexit-bridge-linking-scotland/

Boris away with the fairies. Nothing new there. A lot of roads to be sorted within the province before this Unionist claptrap is entertained

Sam Russell · 12-06-2018 1:43pm

JohnC. wrote: »

Now that there's an important Brexit voting day coming, it's time for idiots to back this plan again, apparently without thought.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/06/11/boris-johnson-backs-15billion-brexit-bridge-linking-scotland/

What nonsense.

Even if the bridge was built, it would need to be a lot longer than 14 miles shortest distance, probably 21 miles. The shortest distance ends up on the end of a very long peninsular that has no real connections.

The journey time from the Scottish side using the 21 miles would be over two hours to the M6, and really not worth the investment.

A better investment would be a bridge from Dublin to Holyhead, and even that would be nuts in the good times. Given Brexit, that is not going to happen.

JohnC. · 14-02-2021 12:26pm

The crazy neighbours are at it again.

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1360724248382353414

The real reason appears to be Brexit sabre rattling. Though I'm not sure threatening something that would have enormous cost and take a long time (and probably wouldn't pass a feasibility study) is much of a threat.

Sam Russell · 14-02-2021 1:11pm

What is that old saying - When in a hole stop digging?

Boris is in a hole so he starts digging.

Well, he starts talking about digging, knowing it will end up like his garden bridge, or his airport on the mudflats of the Thames Estuary, or his bridge from remote west of Scotland to Larne. When someone points out that the tunnel would pass under the Beuafort Dyke which is rather deep (300 m) and filled with millions tonnes of unexploded munitions, dumped there at the end of WW II, he might decide to build the Bridge instead.

From link:

Munitions have since been deposited by the tide on nearby beaches. In 1995, phosphorus bombs washed up on Scottish coasts, coinciding with the laying of the Scotland-Northern Ireland pipeline (SNIP), a 24-inch (610-millimetre) gas interconnector constructed by British Gas. In the prior five years, antitank grenades had been washing up on Northern Irish and Isle of Man shores.[4]

An explosion was registered as a 2.5 Magnitude earthquake on 08 Feb 1986.[5]

Oh, look, squirrels!

Zebra3 · 14-02-2021 2:52pm

I kinda hope this goes ahead so along as the Irish taxpayer doesn't pay a penny towards it.

The Tories and DUP already got one thing they claimed they wanted and that hasn't turned out well for them.

Imagine trying to justify the money for this? It's crackpot dictatorship white elephant stuff.

bigroad · 14-02-2021 2:59pm

What was the cost of this bridge ,could you build a children's hospital for the same price.

Brian CivilEng · 14-02-2021 3:01pm

There's plenty of reasons not to go ahead with this tunnel, but engineering isn't one of them. Every time it comes up someone brings up the munitions dump in Beauford's Dyke as is if it's a gotcha. You can go around it, or go under it and still not break any world records for longest or deepest tunnels. The first stage in any feasibility study would come up with a safe route.

Still not going to happen in my lifetime unless something happens which makes air travel impossible.

Sam Russell · 14-02-2021 3:10pm

Brian CivilEng wrote: »

There's plenty of reasons not to go ahead with this tunnel, but engineering isn't one of them. Every time it comes up someone brings up the munitions dump in Beauford's Dyke as is if it's a gotcha. You can go around it, or go under it and still not break any world records for longest or deepest tunnels. The first stage in any feasibility study would come up with a safe route.

Still not going to happen in my lifetime unless something happens which makes air travel impossible.

But it is daft for many reasons - the Beaufort Dyke is the easiest to cite. Why go from nowhere in West Scotland to nowhere in NI with a tunnel?

How much freight does the Channel Tunnel take from Kent to France compared with ferries? Why do the ferries still have business? How much more traffic is there through Kent to/from France than the West of Scotland to Larne/Belfast?

It would be more useful to build a second channel tunnel from Kent to France, or Holyhead to Dublin, or Pembrokeshire to Wexford.

By the way, the tunnel would have to be a train tunnel and the trains on one side are on a different gauge so that has to be coped with as well.

Daft.

Brian CivilEng · 14-02-2021 3:28pm

I am not in favour of this tunnel. Bloody expensive, and should not be built. But building it is not impossible, and could be done if someone found 20billion down the back of their couch. But I do enjoy thinking about how and why it could be done.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why go from nowhere in West Scotland to nowhere in NI with a tunnel?

25km from Belfast is hardly nowhere. But Scotland would be difficult. 140km to the M6 or West Coast mainline would be expensive. Would need HS2 like expenditure on land to actually make use of the tunnel, it's not like the Channel Tunnel where they could survive on existing infrastructure until HS1 was built.

Sam Russell wrote: »

How much freight does the Channel Tunnel take from Kent to France compared with ferries? Why do the ferries still have business? How much more traffic is there through Kent to/from France than the West of Scotland to Larne/Belfast?

From what I read potential traffic from NI to Scotland would be about 25% of what the channel tunnel takes. In the most optimistic scenarios.

Sam Russell wrote: »

It would be more useful to build a second channel tunnel from Kent to France, or Holyhead to Dublin, or Pembrokeshire to Wexford.

I'm not sure of the economics of a second Channel tunnel, but for the purposes of regional developments in Scotland/NI I doubt it would make sense. Holyhead to Dublin and Pembrokeshire to Wexford would both be way more than anything that has been constructed elsewhere and are probably not feasibile using current technolgy. They'd make more money than a tunnel between Larne and Portpatrick, but not as much money as one from Dublin to New York which is also unfeasibile. Larne to Portpatrick would not be record setting.

Sam Russell wrote: »

By the way, the tunnel would have to be a train tunnel and the trains on one side are on a different gauge so that has to be coped with as well.

25km of new standard guage railway line from Larne to Belfast is hardly going to be a gamechanger in a project this big.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Daft.

100% agree!

Peregrine · 14-02-2021 4:50pm

Brian CivilEng wrote: »

There's plenty of reasons not to go ahead with this tunnel, but engineering isn't one of them. Every time it comes up someone brings up the munitions dump in Beauford's Dyke as is if it's a gotcha. You can go around it, or go under it and still not break any world records for longest or deepest tunnels. The first stage in any feasibility study would come up with a safe route.

Still not going to happen in my lifetime unless something happens which makes air travel impossible.

I don't think people are highlighting those problems to claim that it's an impossible engineering problem. It's only to highlight that the level of engineering required to build it and the costs associated with it are completely off the scale when you consider the level of travel between the two regions.

roadmaster · 14-02-2021 4:56pm

By the time if this where to ever happen Scotland would probably be independent and the North would be reintergreated in to the Republic so the most important thing to happen before construction starts is Boris & Co pays up front!

Sam Russell · 14-02-2021 4:58pm

Peregrine wrote: »

I don't think people are highlighting those problems to claim that it's an impossible engineering problem. It's only to highlight that the level of engineering required to build it and the costs associated with it are completely off the scale when you consider the level of travel between the two regions.

I think Johnson has two problems - DUP up in arms about the NI protocol, and SNP leading the charge on Covid and leading in the fight for INDYREF 2, so what a surprise - there is a (daft) story linking the two and it is so daft that it will take the media a week or two to dismiss it as daft beyond measure.

Straight from the Trump playbook.

14-02-2021 5:01pm

This is the British equivalent of the Western Rail Corridor

Zebra3 · 14-02-2021 5:33pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think Johnson has two problems - DUP up in arms about the NI protocol, and SNP leading the charge on Covid and leading in the fight for INDYREF 2, so what a surprise - there is a (daft) story linking the two and it is so daft that it will take the media a week or two to dismiss it as daft beyond measure.

Straight from the Trump playbook.

It is utterly daft as I doubt any serious percentage of voters in Scotland's Central Belt gives a toss about this proposal.

Muahahaha · 14-02-2021 8:15pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think Johnson has two problems - DUP up in arms about the NI protocol, and SNP leading the charge on Covid and leading in the fight for INDYREF 2, so what a surprise - there is a (daft) story linking the two and it is so daft that it will take the media a week or two to dismiss it as daft beyond measure.

Straight from the Trump playbook.

Pretty much what I thought as well, a Tory ruse because they know there is independence stirring strongly in Scotland which could then tip NI the same way.

Boris is great at major infrastructure announcments knowing well he'll be long out of office before anything come to fruition (if at all). Very easy to call pressers and announce stuff knowing you'll never have to actually follow through.

And is there ever a day when he isnt on the UK tv news at some farm, factory, hospital, laboratory or whereever. He seems to spend all his days visiting these places to put on the hi-vis and a hard hat with a tv camera crew permanently following him. Id wonder does he ever do any work in no.10 at all or is it just all outsourced to his team of SPADs

cgcsb · 18-02-2021 3:07pm

Would be great to see a Dublin-Wales high speed rail link in the future, provided we have an internal high speed network between the three metropolitan areas by then.

Connecting Antrim to Scotland is nonsense from a transport planning POV. The fast majority of Ireland-Britain trips start and end South of Drogheda and South of Leeds. The Antrim-Scotland link is only useful for Ireland-Scotland journeys which are minimal. Also Ireland to France journeys by rail would become practical with a Dublin-Wales link, even if that meant a change of trains and there'd be gauge issues to be resolved. The Antrim-Scotland link would be no challenge to the aviation industry and wouldn't even be competitive with Dublin and Rosslare ferry crossings.

That being said, there's still not much HSR in the UK and we're even further away from having HSR in Ireland, so the whole thing is a long way off. The recent chat about it is more unionist propaganda than a serious proposal. The timing is good for drowning out the loyalist working class threatening the UK govt. with violence.

Sam Russell · 18-02-2021 3:38pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Would be great to see a Dublin-Wales high speed rail link in the future, provided we have an internal high speed network between the three metropolitan areas by then.

Connecting Antrim to Scotland is nonsense from a transport planning POV. The fast majority of Ireland-Britain trips start and end South of Drogheda and South of Leeds. The Antrim-Scotland link is only useful for Ireland-Scotland journeys which are minimal. Also Ireland to France journeys by rail would become practical with a Dublin-Wales link, even if that meant a change of trains and there'd be gauge issues to be resolved. The Antrim-Scotland link would be no challenge to the aviation industry and wouldn't even be competitive with Dublin and Rosslare ferry crossings.

That being said, there's still not much HSR in the UK and we're even further away from having HSR in Ireland, so the whole thing is a long way off. The recent chat about it is more unionist propaganda than a serious proposal. The timing is good for drowning out the loyalist working class threatening the UK govt. with violence.

I think you have it in one.

marno21 · 13-09-2021 11:33pm

https://www.ft.com/content/b7c47e4e-92e1-4d34-8a0f-91b40c360b00

Canned by Rishi Sunak

Atlantic Dawn · 13-09-2021 11:41pm

Looks like they have let NIRL go from the 'Union'.

loyatemu · 14-09-2021 10:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117887653#Comment_117887653

can you "can" something that was never likely to happen anyway?

CatInABox · 14-09-2021 4:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/106261731#Comment_106261731

Funny to look back at my old posts in this thread and realise that while I follow politics quite closely, at the end of the day, I still know nothing about politics.

26-11-2021 11:38pm

Well that's that then

https://www.thejournal.ie/boris-johnson-bridge-plans-scotland-northern-ireland-5612680-Nov2021/

Darc19 · 26-11-2021 11:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118229709#Comment_118229709

😂 As if it was ever a runner. Yet some eejits in the UK will credit Boris for having such an idea in the first place - not understanding that he knew it was economical and construction impossibility from day one.

LXFlyer · 27-11-2021 8:35am

All this ever was on the part of Boris Johnson was deploying his now classic diversionary tactics, to move media attention away from less popular decisions that he was taking, and focus it on something ridiculous.

The fact that UK public funds were wasted on even evaluating this nonsense is more of a scandal.

05-12-2021 12:52pm

Some details on what would actually be required, from an engineering perspective

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/irish-sea-link-the-bridge-and-tunnel-options-deemed-technically-feasible-by-ex-ice-presidentshow-a-bridge-or-tunnel-in-the-irish-sea-could-feasibly-be-built-according-to-ex-ice-presidents-30-11-2021/

Sam Russell · 05-12-2021 1:31pm

I think one of the comments below that article should be reiterated here:-

David Read

30 Nov, 2021 at 11:32 am

Surely this tunnel option with a problem has been aired before. The railway gauge in UK is 1435mm(4 feet 8.5inches), and in Ireland 1600mm (5feet 3inches).Solutions welcomed.

That was my first thought when this was proposed as a rail bridge, apart from the Beaufort Dyke filled with unexploded munitions from WW II.

A daft proposal followed by a waste of time and money investigating an obvious daft proposal.

Zebra3 · 05-12-2021 2:02pm

Far worse than anything ever proposed here for purely political means.

Would’ve bought off a lot of people in the PUL community for a while.

CatInABox · 05-12-2021 3:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118271680#Comment_118271680

If we're seriously considering doing a tunnel, then it'd be an entirely new line, running from Belfast, that'd use the UK gauge. Zero point in building this tunnel and tying it into the substandard network in Ireland/Northern Ireland.

The expense of a new line from the tunnel portal all the way to Belfast (or indeed Dublin) would have been a drop in the ocean compared to the price of the Tunnel.

Sam Russell · 05-12-2021 4:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118272089#Comment_118272089

While I accept that running a std gauge rail connection would be small extra cost, I also think the the proposer of the daft idea was completely unaware of the gauge problem. It was proposed as a railway bridge from a peninsula in Scotland that had long lost its rail connection and was hours from anywhere even by a newly built rail connection across a hostile sea crossing to another peninsular that ran on an incompatible rail gauge.

Only an idiot - wait a minute - OK, I get it.

Capt'n Midnight · 05-12-2021 6:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118272543#Comment_118272543

We use a 1.6m gauge while the Spanish Iberian one is 68mm wider.

in particular on routes to Northern Spain, Renfe has fleets of variable gauge AVE high-speed trains, which can run on the old network as well as the new one. They can even change from Iberian gauge to standard gauge, or the reverse, without stopping, as they pass through gauge-changing points at the intersection between new routes and old ones.

It's a classic our trains can use their network but they can't use ours :p

However that report shows a 17 year long construction timescale. Before delays. Might have to change some of the colours on the maps by then.

Bridge from Scotland to Northern Ireland

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