Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Jump_In_Jack · 26-11-2019 1:40pm

bennyl10 wrote: »

CJ, who was our best player at the WC by a distance, drops out of the 23?
insane

No harm trying other options, if the other options are going well.
Stander has no claim on the jersey, he hasn't been that good.

Granny15 · 26-11-2019 2:36pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

I'm dismissing people who have completely failed recently. I mean look we're talking about a squad who failed. how do we change it? its not by dismissing players who are outside of that squad...

VDF has been super yeah. He's a different beast when backed to be a link man and carrier.

All bets have to be off imo, and if McCloskey or Cooney came in and added nothing then yeah look that argument dies. But so far they haven't been given a chance. There's other lads as well. Conway, Ruddock all fall into this subset, but don't have people questioning the veracity of their claims. Maybe because the all seeing Joe trusted them to an extent.

Its a new era. Its a reset i think

The best part of VDF's game is his carrying possibly his tackling. He is an animal of a player although needs to bulk a bit to be top class international. His appetite and workrate are second to none and if Leavy was fit he would be playing second fiddle.

TBH, I think Farrell will go with a cleanout but keep Sexton. I think Kearney is finished although i do think he's Farrell's type of player. I think he will go for the bulkier players like the England team have at the moment. Why? I'm not sure but to compete with England you need size and that has been proven at the world cup.

I think/hope Cooney will be in. Murray box kicks to often and it is predictable and too one dimensional. We need multiple arrows to our bow in attack and that means a wide game. Will we get a wide game with Farrell - I fear not.

Sexton stays until someone emerges capable of international rugby. He is on the downward slope but can still dictate a game.

I think we might see Kelleher come in up front and we will keep Kleyne and Stander. VDF and who knows on the blindside maybe Ruddock. Ryan lacks bulk but has a workrate that keeps him in there - I'm not as convinced by him as most people are I think he lacks bulk to be a top class second row.

Haley, Addisson and Larmour are all prospects at fullback - clear out Kearney and put one of them in they are all around the same level.

stephen_n · 26-11-2019 2:47pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Course, we all know who Andy Farrell needs to call to save Ireland.

We know.

It’s ok we actually have decent tightheads these days, he can stay milking his sheep.

awec · 26-11-2019 3:15pm

I'm near the end of Jamie Heaslip's book (which is not great overall - but more on that later), and a few things I read yesterday stuck with me.

He said that Schmidt is all about planning, structures, doing everything in his prescripted way, you do whatever Schmidt tells you to do and you don't deviate from it, whereas Lancaster is more an architect of chaos, preparing teams for the unexpected, improving skills so that things can happen that don't need to be planned, which is closer to what NZ do and why they score a lot more tries in open play from counter attacks and the likes. He attributed Leinster's recent success to Lancaster's approach.

He said that in his view, Ireland needed to be less rigid in their play, less Schmidt-like, and adopt a philosophy that was more Lancaster-like. The book was obviously pre-World Cup, so it's not a knee jerk based on that, but I do reckon it's only a matter of time before Lancaster is involved in the national side.

Before anyone says "but Lancaster has more time with the players, he can do more", the implication in the book was that Lancaster took training just one day a week at Leinster (a Tuesday).

The other thing he said was that Schmidt avidly reads the media and what they are saying about him, and takes great care with his public image. Unsurprising that his book media tour is just clichés in that case.

Yeah_Right · 26-11-2019 3:17pm

I always find it amusing when people say the the national team should be picked on form. On club form.

What if the player who is in playing great for his club, is absolutely stinking up the place in training for the national side? What if they simply can't implement the game plan the coach wants? Just because they are playing well at club level.

awec · 26-11-2019 3:21pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I always find it amusing when people say the the national team should be picked on form. On club form.

What if the player who is in playing great for his club, is absolutely stinking up the place in training for the national side? What if they simply can't implement the game plan the coach wants? Just because they are playing well at club level.

That's a lot of what ifs.

What if you keep picking players who are out of form, and they continue to be out of form, and the same issues keep popping up, which keeps leading to the same results? Luckily, we don't have to wonder too much about what happens in this case, just take a look at 2019.

Suggesting that form players be picked is not radical, nor hilarious. Nobody is expecting some lad with 3 Pro14 caps who has scored a bunch of tries to be parachuted straight into the team. Nobody is expecting anyone to be dropped after one bad game. But when the guys on the edge of the squad, or even the second choice players, are clearly playing a lot better than the incumbents, maybe it's time to change things up just a teeny bit.

Burkie1203 · 26-11-2019 3:24pm

bennyl10 wrote: »

CJ, who was our best player at the WC by a distance, drops out of the 23?
insane

Was he?

He carried loads but was largely ineffective.

Shefwedfan · 26-11-2019 3:26pm

awec wrote: »

I'm near the end of Jamie Heaslip's book (which is not great overall - but more on that later), and a few things I read yesterday stuck with me.

He said that Schmidt is all about planning, structures, doing everything in his prescripted way, you do whatever Schmidt tells you to do and you don't deviate from it, whereas Lancaster is more an architect of chaos, preparing teams for the unexpected, improving skills so that things can happen that don't need to be planned, which is closer to what NZ do and why they score a lot more tries in open play from counter attacks and the likes. He attributed Leinster's recent success to Lancaster's approach.

He said that in his view, Ireland needed to be less rigid in their play, less Schmidt-like, and adopt a philosophy that was more Lancaster-like. The book was obviously pre-World Cup, so it's not a knee jerk based on that, but I do reckon it's only a matter of time before Lancaster is involved in the national side.

Before anyone says "but Lancaster has more time with the players, he can do more", the implication in the book was that Lancaster took training just one day a week at Leinster (a Tuesday).

The other thing he said was that Schmidt avidly reads the media and what they are saying about him, and takes great care with his public image. Unsurprising that his book media tour is just clichés in that case.

I think Heaslip was a great player....

Would I read his book? no
Would anyone I know read his book? no

All coaches read the media. All are concerned about how they are viewed in media.

Do we really need some vague comments in a Heaslip book to have a pop at Joe?

bennyl10 · 26-11-2019 3:26pm

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Was he?

He carried loads but was largely ineffective.

2nd more tackles, 2nd most turn overs, most runs

Ineffective? facts say different really

Shefwedfan · 26-11-2019 3:28pm

bennyl10 wrote: »

2nd more tackles, 2nd most turn overs, most runs

Ineffective? facts say different really

Yes he was ineffective and he was in 6 nations

Not a Stander issue, he is a lone carrier in the back row. Just watch his opening carry v NZ and it tells you all you need to know.

The better teams just lined him up and waited. We need two ball carriers in the back row and I don;t think Stander is an 8.....he played best at 6

26-11-2019 3:29pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I always find it amusing when people say the the national team should be picked on form. On club form.

What if the player who is in playing great for his club, is absolutely stinking up the place in training for the national side? What if they simply can't implement the game plan the coach wants? Just because they are playing well at club level.

You think it's common that this massive divergence can/does actually occur?

This argument also falls apart a bit when your team keeps losing, as Ireland did in 2019, imo.

Jump_In_Jack · 26-11-2019 3:30pm

awec wrote: »

That's a lot of what ifs.

What if you keep picking players who are out of form, and they continue to be out of form, and the same issues keep popping up, which keeps leading to the same results? Luckily, we don't have to wonder too much about what happens in this case, just take a look at 2019.

Suggesting that form players be picked is not radical, nor hilarious. Nobody is expecting some lad with 3 Pro14 caps who has scored a bunch of tries to be parachuted straight into the team. Nobody is expecting anyone to be dropped after one bad game. But when the guys on the edge of the squad, or even the second choice players, are clearly playing a lot better than the incumbents, maybe it's time to change things up just a teeny bit.

Rónan Kelleher is impressing though, I would give him a shot IF he continues to impress.
Hooker is a position that is up for grabs right now and he is the form player despite his age.
Look at what Tom Curry has done for England in the past 12 months and he’s younger than Kelleher.

Shefwedfan · 26-11-2019 3:32pm

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Rónan Kelleher is impressing though, I would give him a shot IF he continues to impress.
Hooker is a position that is up for grabs right now and he is the form player despite his age.
Look at what Tom Curry has done for England in the past 12 months and he’s younger than Kelleher.

Another mention of Curry :P

What about Larmour for Leinster and Ireland?

Riskymove · 26-11-2019 3:38pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Not a Stander issue,

so he is not in fact ineffectual

he was used ineffectively in the Irish game plan this year

big difference

he remains in form, wins MOM etc. dropping him from the squad is a crazy idea

blaming stander for being the lone ball carrier is about as pointless for blaming players for all the box kicking or not trying offloads

they were simply carrying out instructions

Shefwedfan · 26-11-2019 3:42pm

Riskymove wrote: »

so he is not in fact ineffectual

he was used ineffectively in the Irish game plan this year

big difference

he remains in form, wins MOM etc. dropping him from the squad is a crazy idea

blaming stander for being the lone ball carrier is about as pointless for blaming players for all the box kicking or not trying offloads

they were simply carrying out instructions

Did I say to drop Stander? Did I say to drop him from the squad?

Did you read my post before this rant? as I said he was ineffective because he was the lone carrier.

If Ireland line up with Stander, VDF, POM come 6 nations time don't expect anything better than we have got the last 12 months. I did mention this prior to WC and was shot down......

Riskymove · 26-11-2019 3:55pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Did I say to drop Stander? Did I say to drop him from the squad?

......

?? no someone else did

there are a number of people in the discussion right?

I built on what you said and then made wider points aimed at the discussion in general

I am talking to everyone not just you

Shefwedfan · 26-11-2019 3:56pm

Riskymove wrote: »

?? no someone else did

there are a number of people in the discussion right?

I built on what you said and then made wider points aimed at the discussion in general

I am talking to everyone not just you

Then don't quote me

Granny15 · 26-11-2019 3:56pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Another mention of Curry :P

What about Larmour for Leinster and Ireland?

I would go further and argue parachuting young players into the national setup as a calculated risk more often than not pays off. Remember Dennis Hickie as a 19 year old? O'Driscoll as a 20 year old? If they are good enough they are old enough and conservatism is an anchor that will drown you.

I think Kelleher is better than the incumbents now that Best is gone and should seriously be looked at to at least sub in one of the 6 Nations games.

irishbucsfan · 26-11-2019 4:09pm

Malakai Some Revolution wrote: »

You think it's common that this massive divergence can/does actually occur?

This argument also falls apart a bit when your team keeps losing, as Ireland did in 2019, imo.

Given our top internationals barely play until the internationals themselves are on the horizon I’d be absolutely shocked if there wasnt extremely common and star divergence between the two.

I’ve heard that going into international camp is basically like a giant reset switch for form for a lot of players and guys who are struggling to get going at home often really look forward to that context switch

Faugheen · 26-11-2019 4:12pm

Granny15 wrote: »

The best part of VDF's game is his carrying possibly his tackling. He is an animal of a player although needs to bulk a bit to be top class international. His appetite and workrate are second to none and if Leavy was fit he would be playing second fiddle.

This myth again.

He knocks back lads much bulkier than him on a regular basis and if you get him to bulk up then you risk him losing pace. His pace is what sets him apart from other 7s (including Leavy).

Granny15 · 26-11-2019 4:15pm

Faugheen wrote: »

This myth again.

He knocks back lads much bulkier than him on a regular basis and if you get him to bulk up then you risk him losing pace. His pace is what sets him apart from other 7s (including Leavy).

Agreed. TBH I was nitpicking. He got fairly shunted around Vs. NZ tho' in the Aviva and England also - could have used a few extra KG.

As a matter of interest do you prefer small mobile 7's or large ones?

The idea i was getting at is bulking up without losing pace/stamina.

Faugheen · 26-11-2019 4:29pm

Granny15 wrote: »

Agreed. TBH I was nitpicking. He got fairly shunted around Vs. NZ tho' in the Aviva and England also - could have used a few extra KG.

As a matter of interest do you prefer small mobile 7's or large ones?

The idea i was getting at is bulking up without losing pace/stamina.

He’s not even that small. He weighs as much as Sam Underhill and just 2kgs less than Tom Curry for example.

Seriously, this notion that he’s undersized is a complete myth. It’s one of the laziest attempts to try and discredit him.

b.gud · 26-11-2019 5:14pm

Faugheen wrote: »

He’s not even that small. He weighs as much as Sam Underhill and just 2kgs less than Tom Curry for example.

Seriously, this notion that he’s undersized is a complete myth. It’s one of the laziest attempts to try and discredit him.

Of course he's small you're just showing your Leinster bias and I can prove it here is a picture of him next to a perfectly averaged sized human being

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Now look at that and tell me he's not small

26-11-2019 5:37pm

theVersatile · 26-11-2019 5:44pm

Some interesting takes in this thread.

Throwing Deegan straight into the number eight jersey is absolute madness. I'm not sure if Conan will be back from his injury come 6N time, but even if he isn't Deegan will barely be around the squad. CJs ball carrying is too much of an asset to leave out and I imagine Ruddock will also cover the #8 position in Conan's absence. A third number eight in the squad would be dodgy, I could see Deegan perhaps getting a training role with the squad in the absence of Leave and Conan - but starting him in any of the games would be silly. If such a training role would be available, it would be a straight shoot out between Deegan, and O'Donoghue - perhaps Leach if he reaches an acceptable enough level of fitness to be a bag carrier.

While he's in cracking form, starting Kelleher probably wouldn't be the smartest approach either . There will be plenty preaching "If he's good enough he's old enough" but international experience isn't something to take likely. James Ryan may have jumped into the Irish set up but he was an exception to the rule in a Lion's Tour Year summer tour. I can see him in the squad no doubt but Herring and Scannell are probably arm wrestling for 2 and 16 until Kelleher gets another few months of Pro14 and HEC. You'd never no what the story is with Cronin.

Scrumhalf is an interesting debate. Given how crucial Murray's tactical kicking was to Ireland in Joe's time, he'll be kept for now. Even if Farrell wants Ireland to play Kiwi rugby, he won't be able to implement it straight away. He'll have to gradually introduce it over the course of maybe a year or so - and the kicking game will likely still be a key aspect of the Irish gameplan. I'd keep Murray at 9 initially regardless of his speed at ruck time, although if Farrell does want to move to a more expansive game plan long term, I can see Cooney stepping in unless Murray speeds himself up. I feel "excitedness" and "snappiness" are overrated aspects of nines - playing fast looks lovely but sometimes patience is required roo. It doesn't that Munster and Irish gameplans of before have probably contributed to Murray's slow play - since he can play fast when he wants to.

I'd suggest something along the lines of:

Healy
Herring/Scannell
Furlong
Ryan
Hendo
CJ
JVDF
Conan (if fit)
Murray
Sexton
Earl's
Henshaw/Bundee
Ringtone/Farrell
Conway
Larmour (interchangeable with Conway)

Shefwedfan · 26-11-2019 6:47pm

theVersatile wrote: »

Some interesting takes in this thread.

Throwing Deegan straight into the number eight jersey is absolute madness. I'm not sure if Conan will be back from his injury come 6N time, but even if he isn't Deegan will barely be around the squad. CJs ball carrying is too much of an asset to leave out and I imagine Ruddock will also cover the #8 position in Conan's absence. A third number eight in the squad would be dodgy, I could see Deegan perhaps getting a training role with the squad in the absence of Leave and Conan - but starting him in any of the games would be silly. If such a training role would be available, it would be a straight shoot out between Deegan, and O'Donoghue - perhaps Leach if he reaches an acceptable enough level of fitness to be a bag carrier.

While he's in cracking form, starting Kelleher probably wouldn't be the smartest approach either . There will be plenty preaching "If he's good enough he's old enough" but international experience isn't something to take likely. James Ryan may have jumped into the Irish set up but he was an exception to the rule in a Lion's Tour Year summer tour. I can see him in the squad no doubt but Herring and Scannell are probably arm wrestling for 2 and 16 until Kelleher gets another few months of Pro14 and HEC. You'd never no what the story is with Cronin.

Scrumhalf is an interesting debate. Given how crucial Murray's tactical kicking was to Ireland in Joe's time, he'll be kept for now. Even if Farrell wants Ireland to play Kiwi rugby, he won't be able to implement it straight away. He'll have to gradually introduce it over the course of maybe a year or so - and the kicking game will likely still be a key aspect of the Irish gameplan. I'd keep Murray at 9 initially regardless of his speed at ruck time, although if Farrell does want to move to a more expansive game plan long term, I can see Cooney stepping in unless Murray speeds himself up. I feel "excitedness" and "snappiness" are overrated aspects of nines - playing fast looks lovely but sometimes patience is required roo. It doesn't that Munster and Irish gameplans of before have probably contributed to Murray's slow play - since he can play fast when he wants to.

I'd suggest something along the lines of:

Healy
Herring/Scannell
Furlong
Ryan
Hendo
CJ
JVDF
Conan (if fit)
Murray
Sexton
Earl's
Henshaw/Binder
Ringtone/Farrell
Conway
Larmour (interchangeable with Conway)

Conan is out
After that I disagree with all your points

Your team

Conway at 15??

What is a Binder?

ClanofLams · 26-11-2019 7:24pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I think Heaslip was a great player....

Would I read his book? no
Would anyone I know read his book? no

All coaches read the media. All are concerned about how they are viewed in media.

Do we really need some vague comments in a Heaslip book to have a pop at Joe?

Heaslip’s views are better informed than any on here so certainly worth posting. Particularly interesting that it was written pre WC so he can’t be accused of jumping on bandwagon.

theVersatile · 26-11-2019 7:25pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Conan is out
After that I disagree with all your points

Your team

Conway at 15??

What is a Binder?

Ofcourse you do. (-_-)

Bundee autocorrected to Binder. Corrected now.

Shefwedfan · 26-11-2019 7:33pm

ClanofLams wrote: »

Heaslip’s views are better informed than any on here so certainly worth posting. Particularly interesting that it was written pre WC so he can’t be accused of jumping on bandwagon.

Heaslip had 6 months training with Lancaster and had 7 years with Joe....

Lancaster was new and something different for a very short period.

I would read the book myself before making any judgements. It seems a certain group of people will read the negative in regards to Joe on anything written.....

The Lancaster trains one day a week with the Leinster squad, would like to see a source for that. As he is the head coach and is supposed to do all the work it is all the more impressive of the Leinster players if they can get everything done in one training session

awec · 26-11-2019 7:40pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Heaslip had 6 months training with Lancaster and had 7 years with Joe....

Lancaster was new and something different for a very short period.

I would read the book myself before making any judgements. It seems a certain group of people will read the negative in regards to Joe on anything written.....

The Lancaster trains one day a week with the Leinster squad, would like to see a source for that. As he is the head coach and is supposed to do all the work it is all the more impressive of the Leinster players if they can get everything done in one training session

The source was Jamie Heaslip, played a few times for Leinster, captain for a bit, maybe you’ve heard of him?

My post wasn’t a dig at Schmidt, just iterating what a former captain of Schmidt said in his book about him, you’re just being overly precious about it.

Shefwedfan · 26-11-2019 7:51pm

awec wrote: »

The source was Jamie Heaslip, played a few times for Leinster, captain for a bit, maybe you’ve heard of him?

My post wasn’t a dig at Schmidt, just iterating what a former captain of Schmidt said in his book about him, you’re just being overly precious about it.

Not been overly precious at all....just seen a lot of cr*p twisted on here to suit someone's view point.....

Wasn't too long ago Jamie mentioned this: https://extra.ie/2018/03/28/sport/rugby/heaslip-coach-lancaster

‘I put him up there with [Ireland Grand-Slam winning coach] Joe Schmidt in terms of best coaches I have ever worked for.

So Jamie Heaslip mentions in his book that Lancaster only takes 1 training session per week with the Leinster squad?

Yeah_Right · 26-11-2019 7:58pm

awec wrote: »

That's a lot of what ifs.

What if you keep picking players who are out of form, and they continue to be out of form, and the same issues keep popping up, which keeps leading to the same results? Luckily, we don't have to wonder too much about what happens in this case, just take a look at 2019.

Suggesting that form players be picked is not radical, nor hilarious. Nobody is expecting some lad with 3 Pro14 caps who has scored a bunch of tries to be parachuted straight into the team. Nobody is expecting anyone to be dropped after one bad game. But when the guys on the edge of the squad, or even the second choice players, are clearly playing a lot better than the incumbents, maybe it's time to change things up just a teeny bit.

Sorry I wasn't clear in what I was trying to say. Players in good form at club level should get called up to the squad. I don't think they should automatically go into the starting line up. It depends on how they perform at the camp, which is something we will never know.

Established international players who are out of form at club level should probably still get a place in the squad depending on their credit in the bank and how long they have been out of form. If their poor form continues, then they should be cut.

awec · 26-11-2019 8:04pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Not been overly precious at all....just seen a lot of cr*p twisted on here to suit someone's view point.....

Wasn't too long ago Jamie mentioned this: https://extra.ie/2018/03/28/sport/rugby/heaslip-coach-lancaster

‘I put him up there with [Ireland Grand-Slam winning coach] Joe Schmidt in terms of best coaches I have ever worked for.

So Jamie Heaslip mentions in his book that Lancaster only takes 1 training session per week with the Leinster squad?

Yes, he even says the Leinster players call it "stuesday".

Yes, Jamie Heaslip also said Schmidt is the best coach he has ever worked with, which doesn't deflect from or diminish anything I posted at all. Again, you are being overly precious. If all you're looking for is endless posts that say "Joe Schmidt is great" then what you're after is an echo chamber, not a discussion forum.

prawnsambo · 26-11-2019 9:05pm

awec wrote: »

Yes, he even says the Leinster players call it "stuesday".

Yes, Jamie Heaslip also said Schmidt is the best coach he has ever worked with, which doesn't deflect from or diminish anything I posted at all. Again, you are being overly precious. If all you're looking for is endless posts that say "Joe Schmidt is great" then what you're after is an echo chamber, not a discussion forum.

I wouldn't be surprised at that training regime at all. Leinster have a fair few coaches. And not that many full training days between matches. Iirc, Monday is review of the last match in the morning and recovery/fitness sessions, Tuesday is the first full training session, Wednesday is a half day, Thursday another full day and Friday is off.

ionadnapokot · 27-11-2019 12:56am

theVersatile wrote: »

Some interesting takes in this thread.

Throwing Deegan straight into the number eight jersey is absolute madness. I'm not sure if Conan will be back from his injury come 6N time, but even if he isn't Deegan will barely be around the squad. CJs ball carrying is too much of an asset to leave out and I imagine Ruddock will also cover the #8 position in Conan's absence. A third number eight in the squad would be dodgy, I could see Deegan perhaps getting a training role with the squad in the absence of Leave and Conan - but starting him in any of the games would be silly. If such a training role would be available, it would be a straight shoot out between Deegan, and O'Donoghue - perhaps Leach if he reaches an acceptable enough level of fitness to be a bag carrier.

I'd suggest something along the lines of:

Healy
Herring/Scannell
Furlong
Ryan
Hendo
CJ
JVDF
Conan (if fit)
Murray
Sexton
Earl's
Henshaw/Bundee
Ringtone/Farrell
Conway
Larmour (interchangeable with Conway)

Think Dorris is a better player than Deegan. Will be very interesting to see how they both develop with Conan out.
CJ should start at no.8 for 6N.

Marmion would be my choice at 9. Again it will be an interesting battle between him and Blade in Connacht.

And I would be one for putting Kelleher straight in at 2.

Sexton - I would give serious consideration to benching Sexton over the course of the 6N - IF Carbery is back and has played 4 or 5 games for Munster before 1st Feb.

AbusesToilets · 27-11-2019 2:14am

I don't want to see Stander start until he learns how to do something other than run directly into the nearest defender. He offers little to nothing as an international 8 at the moment. His lack of passing ability is a huge deficiency and has been persistent for years. Conan is streets ahead of him in terms of attacking ability and ball skills, and the newer players coming through, such as Deegan and Doris, are likely better again.

Dubinusa · 27-11-2019 6:11am

If Murray doesn't improve he should be left at Munster!
We have seen what the other lads are doing on the pitch and they are doing very well. For me, Cooney is the starter right now. His try last week was brilliant. He see's opportunities and takes them. Why continue flogging a dead horse? Murray was way below the standard required all year. He was crap in the 6nations. Cooney is also a very good place kicker. Besides Cooney, Blade is playing great and we know Marmion is good enough.
Carberry may not be the answer at 10. I haven't seen enough control from him to be our 10. I think Carty could be if given the chance. RB is also a very good player and then we have Burns.
Conan is out, so Stander will be at 8 for the 6nations. The summer tour is an ideal time to blood Deegan or Doris. I reckon both of them can do well for us and in 4 years time Stander probably won't even be in the squad.
I think Scannell is in pole position for the 2 shirt. Herring for the 16, but if Kelleher continues his form, I think he will get capped off the bench during the 6nations.
Kleyn is falling further down the pecking order for me. I think Dillane and Roux are back in the mix.
But, it's all speculation atm.

Burkie1203 · 27-11-2019 8:38am

bennyl10 wrote: »

2nd more tackles, 2nd most turn overs, most runs

Ineffective? facts say different really

Runs/carries the same thing?

His carries were by and large ineffective producing slow ruck ball time and again. He is very easy for opponents to cover off and the argument that gets pushed forward about how it takes 2 or 3 of the opposition out of action and creates space is nonsense. Space is no good if the opposition have time to align defensively.

The facts show that he worked hard. Nothing more, nothing less. The very first carry v NZ and he got turned over quite easily. Summed up his international performances in 2019 in a nutshell.

Compare his performance to Read or Savea (he picked off the base at a scrum and made 15m at one point).

Burkie1203 · 27-11-2019 8:40am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So Jamie Heaslip mentions in his book that Lancaster only takes 1 training session per week with the Leinster squad?

There is also a 2 month pre season. The entire set up around a club side is very different to the national team.

Shefwedfan · 27-11-2019 8:56am

awec wrote: »

Yes, he even says the Leinster players call it "stuesday".

Yes, Jamie Heaslip also said Schmidt is the best coach he has ever worked with, which doesn't deflect from or diminish anything I posted at all. Again, you are being overly precious. If all you're looking for is endless posts that say "Joe Schmidt is great" then what you're after is an echo chamber, not a discussion forum.

Did I ask for "Joe is great".....let's have a quick look at your first post

awec wrote: »

which is closer to what NZ do and why they score a lot more tries in open play from counter attacks and the likes. He attributed Leinster's recent success to Lancaster's approach.

He said that in his view, Ireland needed to be less rigid in their play, less Schmidt-like, and adopt a philosophy that was more Lancaster-like.........

The book was obviously pre-World Cup, so it's not a knee jerk based on that, but I do reckon it's only a matter of time before Lancaster is involved in the national side.

The other thing he said was that Schmidt avidly reads the media and what they are saying about him, and takes great care with his public image. Unsurprising that his book media tour is just clichés in that case.

The tone of the post is Heaslip is been critical of Joe.....No mention of Heaslip saying Joe is one of best coach's he has worked under.....

Squidgy Black · 27-11-2019 9:00am

Source on the Stuesdays.

https://youtu.be/up6I3bnsdDw

Granny15 · 27-11-2019 9:05am

Dubinusa wrote: »

If Murray doesn't improve he should be left at Munster!
We have seen what the other lads are doing on the pitch and they are doing very well. For me, Cooney is the starter right now. His try last week was brilliant. He see's opportunities and takes them. Why continue flogging a dead horse? Murray was way below the standard required all year. He was crap in the 6nations. Cooney is also a very good place kicker. Besides Cooney, Blade is playing great and we know Marmion is good enough.
Carberry may not be the answer at 10. I haven't seen enough control from him to be our 10. I think Carty could be if given the chance. RB is also a very good player and then we have Burns.
Conan is out, so Stander will be at 8 for the 6nations. The summer tour is an ideal time to blood Deegan or Doris. I reckon both of them can do well for us and in 4 years time Stander probably won't even be in the squad.
I think Scannell is in pole position for the 2 shirt. Herring for the 16, but if Kelleher continues his form, I think he will get capped off the bench during the 6nations.
Kleyn is falling further down the pecking order for me. I think Dillane and Roux are back in the mix.
But, it's all speculation atm.

I would also be an advocate of putting more Connacht players in the team. I would like to see Tom Farrell given a run out. And perhaps either Dillane or Roux a chance depending on how Kleyn is playing. As well as he's playing I think Ryan is a bit wirey to be top class.

Shefwedfan · 27-11-2019 9:14am

Granny15 wrote: »

I would also be an advocate of putting more Connacht players in the team. I would like to see Tom Farrell given a run out. And perhaps either Dillane or Roux a chance depending on how Kleyn is playing. As well as he's playing I think Ryan is a bit wirey to be top class.

At this rate come 6 nations people will want the entire Connacht team to start for Ireland.....don't like what those Ulster lads are up to???

One of the few players in the Irish team would could be put into the WC bracket and people think he is "a bit wirey" :P:P

aloooof · 27-11-2019 9:32am

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I don't want to see Stander start until he learns how to do something other than run directly into the nearest defender. He offers little to nothing as an international 8 at the moment. His lack of passing ability is a huge deficiency and has been persistent for years. Conan is streets ahead of him in terms of attacking ability and ball skills, and the newer players coming through, such as Deegan and Doris, are likely better again.

I think this completely overlooks his ability defensively, both on the ground and in the tackle, as well we his carrying.

In any case it'll be interesting to see how he adapts to Larkham's influence at club level; he had 2 offloads on Saturday, for example.

kingofthekong · 27-11-2019 1:29pm

Anyone who watches ireland underage rugby realises that Doris is the next high quality 8 to wear the Irish jersey, very good player hopefully he gets a run in Europe this year after his head knock

Clegg · 27-11-2019 2:00pm

kingofthekong wrote: »

Anyone who watches ireland underage rugby realises that Doris is the next high quality 8 to wear the Irish jersey, very good player hopefully he gets a run in Europe this year after his head knock

I don't think that's certain at all. Deegan has been in good form since getting the 8 jersey back. And wrt U20's performances surely that would make Deegan the anointed one? World Rugby U20's player of the year and all that.

kingofthekong · 27-11-2019 2:04pm

Clegg wrote: »

I don't think that's certain at all. Deegan has been in good form since getting the 8 jersey back. And wrt U20's performances surely that would make Deegan the anointed one? World Rugby U20's player of the year and all that.

Again anyone who watches underage rugby will know Doris has the best chance of being the next Irish 8.....Deegan can absoltely be there aswell but maybe at 6.

As a ball carrier Doris is the one

stephen_n · 27-11-2019 10:36pm

I think your man Hodnett will have some say in that matter. It’s all shiny new toy stuff till they are playing regularly in the HEC. Stander will remain first choice in the short term. If Conan gets fit for any length of time he might unseat him or shove him sideways to 6. It will be another few years before Deegan or Doris are starting 6N games barring injuries.

Dubinusa · 28-11-2019 5:58am

It could be a few years but the onus is on Deegan and Doris to stake a claim while Conan is out. The 2 lads may develop a rivalry like the Healy/Jack only a short time ago. They both may become better than both Stander and Conan.
I reckon one of them will be capped within a year. I believe it will be Deegan.. They both have the potential to be special.

Granny15 · 28-11-2019 9:38am

Deegan isn't as good technically as Doris. I can't remember the last ruck he hit straight on with a shoulder. Most of the clearouts he does are hit in side-on forearm/bicep wrap/hit. How long does it take a young player to learn hit straight on and go through the gate and not hit sideways leading with the side of your torso. It's bad technical coaching he has learnt.

I would also say his handling leaves a lot to be desired and he can be lazy at times waiting out on the wing for a ball down the tramlines. In a game like Lyon you aren't going to get that and the forwards need all the help they can get in tight exchanges. He has a tendancy to MIA in these exchanges.

Finally, his ball handling skills are poor. I can't remember how many times he has knocked on or fumbled a pass to him. A guy of his athletic ability should be able to pick up a ball off his bootlaces if he gets a bad pass. I put it down to mentality - confidence or laziness.

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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