Anyone in Ireland that can speak Irish only?

GazzaL · 15-08-2020 1:22pm

It's be great if we could converse in our own language, like the Welsh. Instead, people come out of school with a better grasp of French or German and so on despite having studied those languages for half the length of time. It'd probably help if we didn't have to suffer the poetry and reading about some auld wan who lived on an island.

ILoveYourVibes · 15-08-2020 1:22pm

I hope this doesn't go into a long history lesson thread.

I more interested in linguistics. Language learning techniques. And if there IS actually anyone out there whose Irish is better than their English?

IAMAMORON · 15-08-2020 1:22pm

ILoveYourVibes · 15-08-2020 1:23pm

GazzaL wrote: »

It's be great if we could converse in our own language, like the Welsh. Instead, people come out of school with a better grasp of French or German and so on despite having studied those languages for half the length of time. It'd probably help if we didn't have to suffer the poetry and reading about some auld wan who lived on an island.

Irish people don't come out with German or French. We are not great at teaching languages AT ALL. Full stop.

I think we need to admit that.

Insect Overlord · 15-08-2020 1:24pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

You pull the other one.

What has translation of Russian and German got to do with anything? Some people are talented translators. Some are better at socio-linguistic research, or analysis of literature, or preserving folklore. Not all PhD candidates are the same, just as not all speakers of Irish are the same. Arrogance is a human trait that is found in all parts of society, whatever the Lingua Franca.

How would you react if a stranger told you that every single English-speaking PhD in the world was arrogant? Or everyone with a degree in English? You'd disagree, wouldn't you?

ILoveYourVibes · 15-08-2020 1:28pm

Insect Overlord wrote: »

How would you react if a stranger told you that every single English-speaking PhD in the world was arrogant? Or everyone with a degree in English? You'd disagree, wouldn't you?

Yes because they aren't. Because they are not given the chance to be. Because there are so many native speakers OF english. They are reminded of what they don't know.

I mean the amount of people who said they can speak Irish on the census should tell you what i am saying is true.

Its almost impossible imo to become like a native in a language past the age of 12. Even then its hard. And you have to be really living in the country and using the language at a high level.

Maybe I am wrong and its a general academic thing.

Bannasidhe · 15-08-2020 1:28pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Irish people don't come out with German or French. We are not great at teaching languages AT ALL. Full stop.

I think we need to admit that.

My brother who did his LC through Irish and then went to work in Switzerland using the German and French he learned in school might disagree with you.

ILoveYourVibes · 15-08-2020 1:32pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

My brother who did his LC through Irish and then went to work in Switzerland using the German and French he learned in school might disagree with you.

He would be unusual.

Also I know switzerland ...he didn't need french or German ..and he wouldn't speak their german anyway. People from Germany can't understand swiss german.

I could say my brother is using his lc french in brussels right now. But it wouldn't be true ..they all speak English.

My godfathers brother lives in switzerland ..he is actually from the gaeltact and did lc german. He had to learn from scratch over there though ..it took a few years but he has fluent french and high german now. He has been there over 20 yrs though. But they all speak English at a very high level.

And although he has high German ..he still can't speak swiss german. So sometimes in some towns he would still be lost if they don't swtich for him. Swiss German is very diff.

Insect Overlord · 15-08-2020 1:54pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Maybe I am wrong and its a general academic thing.

You seem to have a somewhat naive impression of English speakers. Look at British and American politics, or even the carry on in Dáil debates. Plenty of well educated, privileged people, and their debates are often as ludicrous as anything posted in After Hours. Arrogance is everywhere. It is not a trait unique to one small section of Irish academia.

Back to the OP's question, I found this reference in an essay by Dónall P. Ó Baoill from the Léachtaí Cholm Cille series from 2002.

Tá diminsiún tábhachtach eile le cur san áireamh i gcás fhoghlaim agus shaothrú agus úsáid na Nua-Ghaeilge mar gur i méid atá an tionchar atáthar a oibriú ar struchtúr agus ar fhoirm na teanga ag gabháil, is é sin, an cineál dátheangachais atá againn áit ar fhoghlaimeoirí dara teanga iad lucht na Gaeilge a rinne insealbhú ar a gcuid Gaeilge trí chóras an Oideachais. Fiú taobh istigh den Ghaeltacht féin tá na cainteoirí is líofa i nGaeilge eolach agus oilte go maith i mBéarla, cé go bhféadfaí céimeanna ar leith dátheangachais a ríomh agus a shainmhíniú.

Another important dimension to be aware of with regards to learning and cultivation and use of Modern Irish is the increased influence that is working on the form and structure of the language, that is, the kind of bilingualism we have in places where we have learners of Irish as a second language who acquired their Irish through the Education system. And even within the Gaeltacht itself the most fluent Irish speakers are knowledgeable of and educated in English, although there are various degrees of bilingualism that could be identified and defined.

The point being, I think, that everyone on this island is influenced by the languages, dialects, slang and word-play around them. Even two decades ago there was an awareness of at least a foundational level of English in all parts of the Gaeltacht.

ILoveYourVibes · 15-08-2020 1:59pm

Insect Overlord wrote: »

You seem to have a somewhat naive impression of English speakers. Look at British and American politics. Plenty of well educated, privileged people, and their debates are often as ludicrous as anything posted in After Hours. Arrogance is everywhere. It is not a trait unique to one small section of Irish academia.

Im speaking solely with reference to language skills not arrogance about anything else ...

Actually though now that i think of it ..there are a couple of American politicians who claim to speak certain languages partic spanish to the level of being able to speak publicly ..when they certainly should not be speaking publicly in that language at the level they are at! But it doesn't stop them.

Not that i am a great person for languages. But i like learning !

Little by little etc.

The point being, I think, that everyone on this island is influenced by the languages, dialects, slang and word-play around them. Even two decades ago there was an awareness of at least a foundational level of English in all parts of the Gaeltach

English is a global ocean. Irish is a glass of water. Its hard to immerse yourself in a glass. If there were more films etc. More books more tv.
Its interesting though and Irish has a lot of interesting features like declension etc.

When you learn major languages ..like french or russian or italian ...a world opens up. All the films you can now understand or songs you know books you can read.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! · 15-08-2020 2:09pm

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Why give up on a thousand years of awesome poetry, song, story, dance, sport, jokes, music, satire, history, heritage, craic and conversation because of a rare bad experience with a snob?

Actually I do believe it, I've witnessed the arrogance of fluent Irish speakers first hand... they think they're more Irish than other people just because they speak the dead/dying language of our ancestors... which is horsesh!t really.

You don't have to speak Irish to be connected to your culture or history. If that were actually true, then Italians would have no culture because they don't speak latin anymore or any other language that went out of fashion...

Irish speakers just hang onto this "cultural significance" mantra, because they can't think of any other legitimate criteria when trying to convince people to keep the language alive... they know they can't appeal to people to use the language for practical day-to-day use... so they try to pull on people's heart strings about "identity" "culture" "Irishness" etc etc...

But it's a load of BS... Our culture and our "Irishness" is not dependent on the Irish language... Our culture and history exists, whether we keep the Irish language alive or not.

If you bring some tourists around and tell them about different aspects of Irish history and culture, sure you might throw a few Irish words in to impress them... but the most important language you need to actually converse with them, is english.... not Irish!

The few Irish words are just a nice little party trick. Like being able to juggle or walk on your hands... it might impress a few people, but basically it's not really essential at all.

I'm not suggesting we should throw Irish in the bin and forget about it... all I'm saying is that people should stop pushing it on people, or brow beating people into speaking it so they can be "more Irish"...

And stop throwing tax money down the drain by forcing kids to learn it... if people want to learn it of their own accord and develop a love for it themselves, I've no problem with that at all... good luck to those people.

(And don't even get me started on the GIANT waste of money needed to print every official document/road sign in both Irish and English - when most Irish speakers are also fluent in English :mad:)

We need to stop this charade of pretending that Irish is on a level footing with English in terms of its national importance to most of the people on this Island... because most people know that this is complete cobblers if they are being honest!

anplaya27 · 15-08-2020 2:09pm

For a different take on the question, I'm a native Irish Sign Language user, like most of the Deaf community.

Our language was recognised as an official language in legislation in 2017.

Spoken English and spoken Irish would be very much second languages for the majority of the community.

ILoveYourVibes · 15-08-2020 2:11pm

anplaya27 wrote: »

For a different take on the question, I'm a native Irish Sign Language user, like most of the Deaf community.

Our language was recognised as an official language in legislation in 2017.

Spoken English and spoken Irish would be very much second languages for the majority of the community.

Im actually embarrassed i have no sign language. I think they should make Irish students learn it for one year.

Its not like you can learn to hear us is it?

Upforthematch · 15-08-2020 2:11pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

English is a global ocean. Irish is a glass of water. Its hard to immerse yourself in a glass. If there were more films etc. More books more tv.
Its interesting though and Irish has a lot of interesting features like declension etc.

When you learn major languages ..like french or russian or italian ...a world opens up. All the films you can now understand or songs you know books you can read.

I disagree - it is very easy to immerse yourself in an irish pint of plain.

In the last 10 years, those cultural aspects of Irish language (tv, music & books) have opened up more to learners than in the past.

There is *plenty* of interesting tv and books out there in Irish. Go to the tg4 archive or a website like litriocht.com if you don't believe me.

The one area seriously lacking is film. This is disappointing because there is no shortage of Irish language theatre talent out there, even it that was recorded it would be a start.

Insect Overlord · 15-08-2020 2:19pm

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

Actually I do believe it, I've witnessed the arrogance of fluent Irish speakers first hand... they think they're more Irish than other people just because they speak the dead/dying language of our ancestors... which is horsesh!t really.

Okay then, that's unfortunately been your experience. But Cultural Nationalism is a complicated part of Irish history, in both Irish and English. And, of course, some people are just dicks. I just wish you didn't think that every single Gaeilgeoir in the country was the very same.

Some love the Aisling poems of the 16th and 17th centuries. Some love the Blasket autobiographies or the Fionn and the Fianna stuff, or the Ruairíocht stories further north, or the poetry of Nuala Ní Dhomhnall. Most of them are just regular people who watch the Premier League and Netflix and listen to Spotify, who don't get too bogged down about holding onto the past at all.

ILoveYourVibes · 15-08-2020 2:27pm

Upforthematch wrote: »

In the last 10 years, those cultural aspects of Irish language (tv, music & books) have opened up more to learners than in the past.

There is *plenty* of interesting tv and books out there in Irish. Go to the tg4 archive or a website like litriocht.com if you don't believe me.

The one area seriously lacking is film. This is disappointing because there is no shortage of Irish language theatre talent out there, even it that was recorded it would be a start.

I don't believe you. Because i have searched.

I respect what you are saying. But I think you have to understand ..i can watch a video in spanish on anything I want. I can watch exercise classes. I can watch Rene Lavand do magic tricks! I can watch films. I can watch muas. I can watch comedies. I can watch videos on mathematics or philosophy! Politics comedy. Film etc.

This is flipping hilar!

I can listen to pop songs in spanish. I read any book i want to read ..in spanish.

There are now added topics that don't get discussed much in the Anglophone world.

I do think the state needs to start sponsoring youtubers to do irish channels. Because they don't get enough views to make it profitable to make vids in Irish really. But its a small world.

https://www.litriocht.com/?term=&s=terry+pratchet&post_type=product&taxonomy=product_cat

The above site doesn't have my fav author Terry Pratchet for example. But I am reading Witches Abroad /Brujas De Viaje right now in spanish.

I know i shouldn't expect a minority language to have the same resources as one spoken by 350 million speakers but its one of the best things about learning a language.

coffee_cake · 15-08-2020 2:29pm

I think nintendo or one of those sites has a totally irish version of the website as well. Couldn't get over it when i saw it

Bannasidhe · 15-08-2020 2:30pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

He would be unusual.

Also I know switzerland ...he didn't need french or German ..and he wouldn't speak their german anyway. People from Germany can't understand swiss german.

I could say my brother is using his lc french in brussels right now. But it wouldn't be true ..they all speak English.

My godfathers brother lives in switzerland ..he is actually from the gaeltact and did lc german. He had to learn from scratch over there though ..it took a few years but he has fluent french and high german now. He has been there over 20 yrs though. But they all speak English at a very high level.

And although he has high German ..he still can't speak swiss german. So sometimes in some towns he would still be lost if they don't swtich for him. Swiss German is very diff.

Working for a multinational company in Basel High German was what he needed, he also learned Basel Deutsche while he was there. He was one of a group of Irish people working there so not that unusual.

He then transferred to Geneva where his knowledge of French was absolutely necessary.
Everyone in Switzerland does not speak English. I lived in a small town named Nyon for a year and survived only because thanks to my LC French I had the basics and learned as I went along. I still speak French with a Swiss accent.

As for this suggestion that if they speak English a person need not learn the language of the country they live and work in - how very English a world view that is - if the silly natives don't know enough English should one enunciate loudly at them?

ILoveYourVibes · 15-08-2020 2:31pm

bluewolf wrote: »

I think nintendo or one of those sites has a totally irish version of the website as well. Couldn't get over it when i saw it

That's a brilliant idea!

ILoveYourVibes · 15-08-2020 2:33pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Working for a multinational company in Basel High German was what he needed, he also learned Basel Deutsche while he was there. He was one of a group of Irish people working there so not that unusual.

He then transferred to Geneva where his knowledge of French was absolutely necessary.
Everyone in Switzerland does not speak English. I lived in a small town named Nyon for a year and survived only because thanks to my LC French I had the basics and learned as I went along. I still speak French with a Swiss accent.

As for this suggestion that if they speak English a person need not learn the language of the country they live and work in - how very English a world view that is - if the silly natives don't know enough English should one enunciate loudly at them?

Im sorry with all due respect. I don't believe his LC gave him the necessary level of any language.

Insect Overlord · 15-08-2020 2:37pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

The above site doesn't have my fav author Terry Pratchet for example. But I am reading Witches Abroad /Brujas De Viaje right now in spanish.

I know i shouldn't expect a minority language to have the same resources as one spoken by 350 million speakers but its one of the best things about learning a language.

It seems you're suggesting that Irish has a problem, not due to a lack of books or authors, but because there aren't enough translations of books from English. An Gúm ran a translation project in the 1920s and 30s. It was a bit of a disaster. They were extremely conservative, and some of the best and brightest writers of the generation nearly went mad working there. While there's always an appetite for translations of best-sellers, I'd say it's less important than encouraging original works.

Upforthematch · 15-08-2020 2:38pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I don't believe you. Because i have searched.

I respect what you are saying. But I think you have to understand ..i can watch a video in spanish on anything I want. I can watch exercise classes. I can watch Rene Lavand do magic tricks! I can watch films. I can watch muas. I can watch comedies. I can watch videos on mathematics or philosophy! Politics comedy. Film etc.

I can listen to pop songs in spanish. I read any book i want to read ..in spanish.

There are now added topics that don't get discussed much in the Anglophone world.

I do think the state needs to start sponsoring youtubers to do irish channels. Because they don't get enough views to make it profitable to make vids in Irish really. But its a small world.

https://www.litriocht.com/?term=&s=terry+pratchet&post_type=product&taxonomy=product_cat

The above site doesn't have my fav author Terry Pratchet for example. But I am reading Witches Abroad /Brujas De Viaje right now in spanish.

I know i shouldn't expect a minority language to have the same resources as one spoken by 350 million speakers but its one of the best things about learning a language.

I hear what you are saying and the caveat about Irish being a minority language. I love your suggestion about paid Irish language youtubers. Now there's an idea.

No, Irish is not a 'global' language like Irish or Spanish, but just as an experiment I did a quick search and can't see any Terry Pratchet translated into Swedish, a language with 10m speakers!

https://www.bokus.com/cgi-bin/product_search.cgi?ac_used=yes&search_word=terry+pratchett

Lots of English to Irish translations have been done, but my focus is on genuine Irish language material instead of second hand content.

There is plenty out there to enjoy.

Fuascailteoir · 15-08-2020 2:42pm

AdrianBalboa wrote: »

Issues I have with Irish is its use of religious terminology in their greetings, and the genderized surnames.

My children go to a Gaelscoil and I told them to use “hello” instead of Dia Dhuit and to use whichever version of their surname they are more comfortable with instead of following the outdated Ó/Ní format for boys and girls respectively.

I also told them to just ignore whatever their teacher says about the “rules” and pronunciation and all that rubbish and just talk to each other. They’re never going to learn how to speak if they’re learning grammar!

Most gaelscoils use haigh

ILoveYourVibes · 15-08-2020 2:43pm

Upforthematch wrote: »

I hear what you are saying and the caveat about Irish being a minority language. I love your suggestion about paid Irish language youtubers. Now there's an idea.

No, Irish is not a 'global' language like Irish or Spanish, but just as an experiment and did a quick search and can't see any Terry Pratchet translated into Swedish, a language with 10m speakers!

https://www.bokus.com/cgi-bin/product_search.cgi?ac_used=yes&search_word=terry+pratchett

Lots of English to Irish translations have been done, but my focus is on genuine Irish language material instead of second hand content.

There is plenty out there to enjoy.

It's lucky i have spanish then :P

Poor swedes ..I guess its why they learn English!

Yeah ...I think the state should sponsor a channel or something ..but give the creator freedom to create what they wish to. Normal youtube things. Make up or challenges etc.

ILoveYourVibes · 15-08-2020 2:58pm

If i were a rich person ..i would move around diff countries learning diff languages ..but at least i have books and youtube for now!

I do want to live in spain for a bit though. I lived there before ..its amazing to me how much language changes ...you hear things now like estoy 'super' cansada and 'xonis'

Bannasidhe · 15-08-2020 3:04pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Im sorry with all due respect. I don't believe his LC gave him the necessary level of any language.

With respect I don't give a fig what you believe.

No one claimed learning a language ends at the LC.

His honours level LC in German and French gave him enough working knowledge to start working in Switzerland aged 19 - he obviously increased his knowledge of both languages building on the foundation he already had.
5 other Irish people started at the same time as he did - they all have enough of a foundation in French and German due to their LC.

He is now also fluent in Italian, has excellent spoken Spanish and Portuguese but feels his literacy is not good enough to qualify as fluent.
He never returned to live in Ireland so tbh his English is heavily accented and a bit hesitant now.
His Irish, however, is still perfect - thanks to TG4.

There are people working across Europe, including in various high level E.U. roles, whose knowledge of French in particular earned while doing the LC gave them the required basics.

It is possible to leave school with a good working knowledge of French/German. Thousands have done it.

I would agree with posters here who feel the way Irish is taught needs a radical overhaul. Not enough emphasis is placed on conversation.

ILoveYourVibes · 15-08-2020 3:09pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

With respect I don't give a fig what you believe.

No one claimed learning a language ends at the LC.

His honours level LC in German and French gave him enough working knowledge to start working in Switzerland aged 19 - he obviously increased his knowledge of both languages building on the foundation he already had.
5 other Irish people started at the same time as he did - they all have enough of a foundation in French and German due to their LC.

He is now also fluent in Italian, has excellent spoken Spanish and Portuguese but feels his literacy is not good enough to qualify as fluent.
He never returned to live in Ireland so tbh his English is heavily accented and a bit hesitant now.
His Irish, however, is still perfect - thanks to TG4.

There are people working across Europe, including in various high level E.U. roles, whose knowledge of French in particular earned while doing the LC gave them the required basics.

It is possible to leave school with a good working knowledge of French/German. Thousands have done it.

I would agree with posters here who feel the way Irish is taught needs a radical overhaul. Not enough emphasis is placed on conversation.

I am extremely skeptical.

According to you he speaks 7 languages.

As regards Irish...language learning is hard. It requires dedication and motivation. And at least a few years of immersion. No teacher is going to spoon feed it into you. But bad teachers can really waste your time.

Insect Overlord · 15-08-2020 3:15pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I am extremely skeptical.

According to you he speaks 7 languages.

It's not as rare as some would expect.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_polyglots

paul71 · 15-08-2020 3:15pm

I have not read the entire thread, but I did once watch a youtube of an interview with a man who was claimed to be the last non English speaker. It was in the 50s or 60s and he was probably 60 at the time.

I suspect that today the only ones who cannot speak English are under 5 in Irish speaking households who have not yet started speaking English but will.

I also have a couple of ancedots, my mother was a nurse in Navan hospital in the 60s and 70s and did say that there were sometimes elderly patients from Rathcairn and Gibbstown who as a result of dementia had forgotten how to speak English, I came accross an elderly man lost on one occasion myself who had a similar issue.

In conclusion I would say the only monolingual Irish speakers are young children who have started to learn English yet or the old who have forgotten how to speak it.

paul71 · 15-08-2020 3:16pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I am extremely skeptical.

According to you he speaks 7 languages.

As regards Irish...language learning is hard. It requires dedication and motivation. And at least a few years of immersion. No teacher is going to spoon feed it into you. But bad teachers can really waste your time.

No learning a language is not difficult.

Anyone in Ireland that can speak Irish only?

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