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“Google’s Ideological Echo Chamber” memo goes viral, usual suspects outraged

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    #62
    red ears
    Closed Accounts Posts: 945 ✭✭✭red ears


    Only 18 percent of IT graduates in the US are female. Are we going to have a situation where they get 50 percent of the jobs at Google. How is that going to be fair on the 82 percent of men studying the subject. Will we have the same 50 percent hiring policy for teachers, nurses, speech therapists etc.


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    #63
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,664 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Stefan Molyneux has an insightful take on this, link.

    As for the firing the employee instead of engaging with his points underpins the very nature of the cult of liberal diversity that is not open to heretic arguments based on logic but instead attempts to rely on the tried and true "point and shriek" method of dealing with dissent. Google is the company that the majority of the world's data and news flow through: thus at the very least a political neutral work environment should be key to allow different view points and avoid bias, not instead one seeming based on a Gender studies curriculum.


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    #64
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    red ears wrote: »
    Only 18 percent of IT graduates in the US are female. Are we going to have a situation where they get 50 percent of the jobs at Google. How is that going to be fair on the 82 percent of men studying the subject. Will we have the same 50 percent hiring policy for teachers, nurses, speech therapists etc.

    I remember hearing about a hedge fund that shorts companies with excessive diversity programs, if half of google's IT specialists end up being female this hedge fund might add google to their list :D

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #65
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,775 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    silverharp wrote: »
    What does that mean , forced diversity and quotas is an anti-conservative idea, Conservatives are more interested in a quality of the individual not what group they "belong" too

    Exactly

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #66
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    silverharp wrote: »
    I remember hearing about a hedge fund that shorts companies with excessive diversity programs, if half of google's IT specialists end up being female this hedge fund might add google to their list :D

    Hedge funds are great at making cash for there managers, not so much there customers.


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    #67
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,775 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    silverharp wrote: »
    I remember hearing about a hedge fund that shorts companies with excessive diversity programs, if half of google's IT specialists end up being female this hedge fund might add google to their list :D

    Sounds like a brilliant way to lose money.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #68
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Brian? wrote: »
    Exactly

    you implied conservatives are against diversity which is incorrect

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #69
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,775 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    silverharp wrote: »
    you implied conservatives are against diversity which is incorrect

    You just agreed they were !?!

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #70
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    wes wrote: »
    Hedge funds are great at making cash for there managers, not so much there customers.

    who knows but one can see the reasoning, if a company goes out of its way not to hire or promote the best staff, the competition are likely to overtake at some stage

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #71
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Brian? wrote: »
    You just agreed they were !?!

    I said forced as in if a company sacks or doesn't promote or hire male staff to advance women.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #72
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,775 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    silverharp wrote: »
    I said forced as in if a company sacks or doesn't promote or hire male staff to advance women.

    No, you didn't say that. You said they were against forced diversity quotas.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #73
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Brian? wrote: »
    No, you didn't say that. You said they were against forced diversity quotas.

    that's what I said
    forced diversity and quotas

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #74
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    silverharp wrote: »
    who knows but one can see the reasoning, if a company goes out of its way not to hire or promote the best staff, the competition are likely to overtake at some stage

    Just pointing out that hedge funds don't really have a clue, and Googles reasoning is that having different people in the room, can avoid problems. Here is an admittedly extreme example from HP:

    HP Face-Tracking Webcams Don't Recognize Black People


    Google is world wide, and having capable people from different back grounds would be an asset for them.

    Also, in the past there use to be a lot more Women involved in computing, but then something happened to change that:

    Computer Programming Used To Be Women’s Work


    Take a look at people like people like Grace Hopper etc from the early days of programming. A lot of Women were involved and that changed later for some reason. We have to ask what the hell happened?


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    #75
    brevity
    Registered Users Posts: 8,483 ✭✭✭brevity


    There are 3 .net developers on my team that are women are are all very good. One is excellent.

    By and large its a male heavy role but it doesn't necessarily mean there aren't good women engineers out there.

    Depends on the person.


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    #76
    Biggest lickspittle on boardz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 558 ✭✭✭Biggest lickspittle on boardz


    Well Google responded to a discussion on diversity by straight up hunting the guy down and firing him.

    Keep this up and Trump will get reelected without any problems.


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    #77
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    wes wrote: »
    Just pointing out that hedge funds don't really have a clue, and Googles reasoning is that having different people in the room, can avoid problems. Here is an admittedly extreme example from HP:

    HP Face-Tracking Webcams Don't Recognize Black People


    Google is world wide, and having capable people from different back grounds would be an asset for them.

    Also, in the past there use to be a lot more Women involved in computing, but then something happened to change that:

    Computer Programming Used To Be Women’s Work


    Take a look at people like people like Grace Hopper etc from the early days of programming. A lot of Women were involved and that changed later for some reason. We have to ask what the hell happened?

    you either hire or promote the best people or you don't. If you don't then the best people are going to either get demotivated and leave or potential applicants will decide Google is a dodgy place to work.
    I'd imagine computer work was very different in the 40's and 50's , Im sure it came up on a thread here before but cant remember the arguments, it wasn't the Patriarchy anyway

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #78
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    Biggest lickspittle on boardz wrote: »
    Well Google responded to a discussion on diversity by straight up hunting the guy down and firing him.

    Keep this up and Trump will get reelected without any problems.

    You really think people care? Random internet outrage ranks very, very low on peoples lists when it comes to elections.


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    #79
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    silverharp wrote: »
    you either hire or promote the best people or you don't. If you don't then the best people are going to either get demotivated and leave or potential applicants will decide Google is a dodgy place to work.
    I'd imagine computer work was very different in the 40's and 50's , Im sure it came up on a thread here before but cant remember the arguments, it wasn't the Patriarchy anyway

    The diversity programs would argue that isn't happening that various bias are screwing over perfectly capable people.


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    #80
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Biggest lickspittle on boardz wrote: »
    Well Google responded to a discussion on diversity by straight up hunting the guy down and firing him.

    He wasn't hunted down. He was put his name to his rant.
    Biggest lickspittle on boardz wrote: »
    Keep this up and Trump will get reelected without any problems.

    Trump is a big fan of corporations being able to fire people at will. He even had a TV show were he did that on the regular :P.


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    #81
    Wombatman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Wombatman


    Manach wrote: »
    Stefan Molyneux has an insightful take on this, link.

    As for the firing the employee instead of engaging with his points underpins the very nature of the cult of liberal diversity that is not open to heretic arguments based on logic but instead attempts to rely on the tried and true "point and shriek" method of dealing with dissent. Google is the company that the majority of the world's data and news flow through: thus at the very least a political neutral work environment should be key to allow different view points and avoid bias, not instead one seeming based on a Gender studies curriculum.

    Do you really think the arguments in the memo are based on logic?

    Men and women are biologically different ergo women are not suitable for software development or leadership roles. Stunning conclusion there Einstein.

    Apples and oranges logic sprinkled with random negative female traits. Why didn't he state the women a better at multi tasking then men for example? In the "Women, on average, have more" section he makes 5 gross generalizations about women out of a possible 1000, no 10000. 4 of the 5 are pointing out limitations and 1 just states that women are neurotic. Cool. So next time a women isn't seeing things my way I can just fire out "Ah will you stop now hon, you are just being neurotic".

    I mean what has this got to do with software development....
    For heterosexual romantic relationships, men are more strongly judged by status and women by beauty. Again, this has biological origins and is culturally universal.

    Men and women are biologically different. No sh1t Sherlock.

    Apply the logic below to blue eyed people and non-blue eyed people, or gingers and non-gingers.
    Non-gingers who have the hair dyed at birth behave like gingers.
    So what fooking what! It has no baring on someone's ability to be a software developer or a leader.
    On average, men and women biologically differ in many ways. These differences aren’t just socially constructed because:
    ·They’re universal across human cultures
    ·They often have clear biological causes and links to prenatal testosterone
    ·Biological males that were castrated at birth and raised as females often still identify and act like males
    ·The underlying traits are highly heritable
    ·They’re exactly what we would predict from an evolutionary psychology perspective

    All that said I feel very uneasy about the sacking. If every woman who stated that all men were pigs or every man who made fun of a woman's driving was sacked, there would be a sh1t load of people on the dole.


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    #82
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    wes wrote: »
    The diversity programs would argue that isn't happening that various bias are screwing over perfectly capable people.

    well they would wouldn't they. Also there is a difference between "perfectly capable" and the best. Ive never hired anyone because they were the lowest acceptable unless I didn't have any better options.
    We are talking about an industry that's begging Trump not to stop staff coming from India which implies there would be an open door to anyone with the right skills

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #83
    Biggest lickspittle on boardz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 558 ✭✭✭Biggest lickspittle on boardz


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    You really think people care? Random internet outrage ranks very, very low on peoples lists when it comes to elections.

    I think you are under estimating just how much of a backlash there was against this type of PC tyranny in the last election. There's a creeping authoritarian mindset that has set in within the liberals in the States.

    It isn't so much internet outrage we're talking here, but this is an example of some absurd logic that is taking place every day in offices, colleges, and boardrooms across the US. It all adds up.


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    #84
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,237 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Biggest lickspittle on boardz wrote: »
    Well Google responded to a discussion on diversity by straight up hunting the guy down and firing him.

    Keep this up and Trump will get reelected without any problems.

    Didn't Trump just fire a bunch of people because he didn't like what they had to say? And all his supporters praised him for it.

    Seems to me Trump voters should love Google.


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    #85
    Silver Lynel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭Silver Lynel


    wes wrote: »
    Here is an admittedly extreme example from HP:

    HP Face-Tracking Webcams Don't Recognize Black People


    A terrible example.

    The issue was not with skin tone, the issue was with lighting.

    "HP Face Tracking Webcams Don't Perform As Well In Bad Lighting Conditions" would have been a more accurate headline. Of course, it wouldn't have been much of a headline.

    This seems to be a recurring theme. People are able to take something and twist it until they can make references to racism or sexism.

    "HP Selling Alt-Right Webcams"

    Or, as I imagine you might argue, "your side are buying racist webcams, our side are simply buying webcams that don't work as well in bad lighting conditions".


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    #86
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    silverharp wrote: »
    well they would wouldn't they. Also there is a difference between "perfectly capable" and the best. Ive never hired anyone because they were the lowest acceptable unless I didn't have any better options.

    Semantics. Google will try and hire the best people they can, and I am sure they have the data to back up there decisions.
    silverharp wrote: »
    We are talking about an industry that's begging Trump not to stop staff coming from India which implies there would be an open door to anyone with the right skills

    Trump is happy to use the same program to hire people for his own businesses. They aren't really in any danger as long as he does exactly what they do.


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    #87
    Skylinehead
    Registered Users Posts: 11,690 ✭✭✭✭Skylinehead


    Biggest lickspittle on boardz wrote: »
    I think you are under estimating just how much of a backlash there was against this type of PC tyranny in the last election. There's a creeping authoritarian mindset that has set in within the liberals in the States.

    It isn't so much internet outrage we're talking here, but this is an example of some absurd logic that is taking place every day in offices, colleges, and boardrooms across the US. It all adds up.

    You're going way overboard with how much influence internet gender wars etc have in real life. Unless you're one of those that actually talks about it outside the internet...


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    #88
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    wes wrote: »
    Semantics. Google will try and hire the best people they can, and I am sure they have the data to back up there decisions.

    the best they can under their constraints. Either you hire by merit or you compromise

    There is still the fundamental issue that high end IT related fields of study are vast majority male so it tells you something about interest in the field particularly after a couple of decades of "you go girl!"

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #89
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    silverharp wrote: »
    There is still the fundamental issue that high end IT related fields of study are vast majority male so it tells you something about interest in the field particularly after a couple of decades of "you go girl!"

    So, we would then expect the case that the percentage of work force, would match roughly the percentage of Women graduating, which isn't the case for a lot of these tech companies.


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    #90
    Silver Lynel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭Silver Lynel


    Skylinehead wrote: »
    You're going way overboard with how much influence internet gender wars etc have in real life. Unless you're one of those that actually talks about it outside the internet...

    When you look at the absolute buffoon the USA elected as President and you consider how much his internet presence affected the election do you not start to wonder?

    Like you, I also have severe doubts that all this internet bickering influences "real life" but there is a niggling doubt now.

    I was at a comedy show very recently and the jokes were not offensive or political or even all that funny. Near the end of the show the comedian made some throwaway remark about "the LGBTLMNOP community or whatever they are calling themselves" and it was the biggest laugh and cheer and applause of the night.

    It was a bit unsettling for me personally but it did get me thinking that maybe there is something more than we realize brewing under the surface in "real life" and that people are becoming increasing angry about things they are seeing online.

    The "right" actually do seem to be controlling that narrative online. The "left" are perceived as unfunny, irrational, overly sensitive and authoritarian.

    Even here, this guy complains about Google and it's not TOO unreasonable. He raises points and gets fired and it feeds the perception of "the left".

    Google are probably right to fire him, from a purely corporate perspective, but it's not a good look. The guy uses some rational points to basically claim that Google has some kind of cult mentality and Google excommunicates him for saying that. This just confirms certain biases.

    The harder you try to shut them down the more support they gain.

    If you look at something like "Gamergate" then you can easily see that the efforts to shut down Gamergate involved maybe not being 100% honest here and there. The result was that Gamergate grew and grew and people who were once simply opinionated posters on message boards became highly popular and well paid internet celebrities.

    On Youtube, for example, for every pro-Feminist channel with 10k viewers there is an anti-Feminist channel with over 100k viewers, even more sometimes.

    You allow people to say what they want anonymously and they will rant and rant and rant about SJWs. They might not speak about it in the real world but I am sure many people are thinking it.

    They probably don't want to speak up because it will cost them their job. However, nobody knows who you voted for.

    I think about that and then I look at Donald Trump. I'll admit that the hysteria following his election was hilarious to me and that makes me wonder if maybe there is a connection.


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    #91
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,237 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Have the people getting pissed off actually read this guys manifesto?

    It's complete gibberish and garbage
    "I'm simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don't see equal representation of women in tech and leadership."

    I'm starting to see why he lost his job. Because he's a dickhead.


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