BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

hippy_hop · 08-06-2017 3:31pm

"Bizarrely enough it is useful having depots at either end of the routes, given that buses start at both ends of bus routes, not just the outer end.
A mix of the two is useful."

Having 6 out of 7 depots in the city center is not a mix.

LXFlyer · 08-06-2017 3:39pm

Neither Clontarf nor Donnybrook are in the city centre - you're stretching things a bit by claiming that.

I've already said there is a need for another depot to the west.

Dravokivich · 08-06-2017 3:45pm

hippy_hop wrote: »

Maybe develop high density housing at Broadstone Station. Keep the southern depot. Knock Constitution Hill flats and move residents into Broadstone development. Expand southern Depot into flats site. Move Bus Eireann depot to docklands and port which is much closer to Busaras.

Sell Conyngham Road (near Heuston Station), Ringsend and Summerhill and phase out to newly built depots outside city. These are perfect locations for high density residential due to location and planning requirements.

You're also making it harder for drivers to get to them.

Kamili · 08-06-2017 3:51pm

brokenarms wrote: »

Very unlikly any garages will move. They are owned by DB. And are set up to fix and wash buses, with canteens and so on. Moving somthing like that would be out of the question

Although I could see another garage open out in the likes of Grange Castle. In my own opinion that is.

Land in Grange castle is too expensive, so I wouldn't see that as being an option for DB.

blah_blah_90 · 08-06-2017 4:15pm

Donnybrook is 2km from the Canal, so we can call it "inner suburb". Anyway, thats the Bus depot land which has highest value.

Clontarf would also be valuable due to seafront location.

Also, Clontarf is not near any high frequency routes, so its location is poor strategically. It makes more sense to have depots near high frequency routes or maybe in between two routes.

Anyway, with the electrification of buses, purpose built depots will be necessary.
Drivers can get to work however they did in the past. I doubt they all live in the city center or near depots, so they must have their own modes of transport.

Stephen15 · 08-06-2017 4:33pm

Whats the story with Bray depot I know its small what routes operate from there 84, 184, 185?

I suggest a good location for a small new bus depot on the southside would be the old ferry terminal in DL. They could also turn into a bus station/interchange and give people a proper place to wait for their bus.

BonnieSituation · 08-06-2017 4:57pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Actually those tickets are still in use in many cities across Europe. I actually it's a better system than smarts as its allows better for multi modal journeys without paying twice.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Whats the story with Bray depot I know its small what routes operate from there 84, 184, 185?

I suggest a good location for a small new bus depot on the southside would be the old ferry terminal in DL. They could also turn into a bus station/interchange and give people a proper place to wait for their bus.

You have come up with some whopper suggestions in your time. My fave being the stops on the N4 Chapo bypass, but the ferry terminal as a bus depot?

GAS!

Never mind you can't get anything build in DL on the seafront as it is, but the plans are to continue to use that area for facilitating cruise ships in summer. Not a hope of this happening never mind the awful entrance/exit points at either end. Never a goer.

Stephen15 · 08-06-2017 5:44pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You have come up with some whopper suggestions in your time. My fave being the stops on the N4 Chapo bypass, but the ferry terminal as a bus depot?

GAS!

Never mind you can't get anything build in DL on the seafront as it is, but the plans are to continue to use that area for facilitating cruise ships in summer. Not a hope of this happening never mind the awful entrance/exit points at either end. Never a goer.

The cruise terminal isn't going to happen and rightly so. Ile use your words and say it was another 'whopper suggestion'. Only smaller cruise vassels ever come into DL harbour and they come in over near the east pier where the orignal ferry terminal was.

It looks like the ferry terminal is becoming a tech centre anyway.

I should put a disclaimer in my posts to say that they probably will never happen.

lucernarian · 08-06-2017 7:17pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Broadstone/Phibsboro actually contains three depots - 2 Dublin Bus depots and a BE one.

A rather pedantic point seeing as the mechanics of Phibsboro 1 also work in Phibsboro 2

orangerhyme · 08-06-2017 7:50pm

I'm not sure how anyone in their right mind would argue that Broadstone station, a listed building from 1850, is best used as a BUS GARAGE!

Thats before even considering with the few hectares behind it, forms one of the best city center development land in the city Center, right on the Luas, 10 min walk to Capel/Parmell street, near the new DIT campus, Phibsborough new town center, New Dalymount, Smithfield etc.........

bk · 08-06-2017 9:13pm

Every time I pass the Donnybrook depot I think what prime development land.

But why not have your cake and eat it?

Build a large tall office building over the depot, but still have the depot there. Maybe even put the depot underground.

Building transport stations and hubs underground and ground floor and then offices and shopping centres above them is pretty common throughout Europe. It is a good use of valuable city centre land while still maintaining high quality public transport.

And it isn't like we don't already have experience with this. After all this is exactly what Busaras is, a bus station with offices built over it, Deptartment of Social Protection are above it.

BTW lxflyer, CIE owns all DB, BE and IR facilities and land. CIE in turn is 100% owned by the government. So in the end they will do whatever the government directs them to do with this land. And rightfully so as all this property was paid for by the Irish taxpayer.

LXFlyer · 08-06-2017 9:14pm

lucernarian wrote: »

A rather pedantic point seeing as the mechanics of Phibsboro 1 also work in Phibsboro 2

Well it was more to point out that it's not just BE there as many people think - there are a large number of DB vehicles there too.

n97 mini · 08-06-2017 9:23pm

bk wrote: »

Every time I pass the Donnybrook depot I think what prime development land.

Along with other depots like Coyngham Rd it's a complete eyesore too.

Stephen15 · 08-06-2017 9:50pm

bk wrote: »

Every time I pass the Donnybrook depot I think what prime development land.

But why not have your cake and eat it?

Build a large tall office building over the depot, but still have the depot there. Maybe even put the depot underground.

Building transport stations and hubs underground and ground floor and then offices and shopping centres above them is pretty common throughout Europe. It is a good use of valuable city centre land while still maintaining high quality public transport.

And it isn't like we don't already have experience with this. After all this is exactly what Busaras is, a bus station with offices built over it, Deptartment of Social Protection are above it.

BTW lxflyer, CIE owns all DB, BE and IR facilities and land. CIE in turn is 100% owned by the government. So in the end they will do whatever the government directs them to do with this land. And rightfully so as all this property was paid for by the Irish taxpayer.

It could be difficult as the building in Donnybrook is a protected structure.

Spanish Eyes · 08-06-2017 10:01pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

It could be difficult as the building in Donnybrook is a protected structure.

I'd say that's only the facade i.e. the design on top of the buildings. Could easily be dismantled and re erected surely.

I'm all for preserving our heritage don't get me wrong, but honestly this building is gross, apart from the roof thing. If it is so wonderful and so on, why allow a stupid wall to be build in front of it so no one can actually see it! I suppose it is the curvature of the construction or something. So original.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.318741,-6.2315051,3a,90y,218.3h,91.41t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3bxpUmaIHQPJfwiBNfTflw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Stephen15 · 08-06-2017 10:15pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I'd say that's only the facade i.e. the design on top of the buildings. Could easily be dismantled and re erected surely.

I'm all for preserving our heritage don't get me wrong, but honestly this building is gross, apart from the roof thing. If it is so wonderful and so on, why allow a stupid wall to be build in front of it so no one can actually see it!

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.318741,-6.2315051,3a,90y,218.3h,91.41t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3bxpUmaIHQPJfwiBNfTflw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Just because you don't like it dosen't mean that others think the same. Anyway protecting a structure is not based off personal taste its based off a buildings uniqueness something which this building is as its the first building in the world to a roof of its kind. The orignal idea was to copy its template and replicate it at every CIE bus depot in the country.

The surrounding land could be sold off dont get me wrong but the building would have to remain but its use could be changed maybe some kind of hipstery place.

john boye · 08-06-2017 11:03pm

Is Ringsend not owned by Eircom (or whatever they're called now) anymore? Hadn't heard of it changing hands.

punisher5112 · 08-06-2017 11:32pm

Something that needs changing in the city is enforcement of bus stops as to keep the service running and safety of passengers and basically anyone else around.

Today like every other day private coaches are parked on Nassau st.

Private vehicles parking in and right up to bus stops.

Taxis making ranks and just sitting in bus stops blocking them for intended purpose.

Earlier seen a lady park up at connolly station and a bus pulled in to let passengers off safely including a buggy so getting to the kerb was IMO very good practice for safety of passengers alighting.

Do you think this fool would move .... No.

The driver had to get out to ask her to move but she still just sat there.

Eventually she moved off to then do an illegal u-turn. But ended up going back in to the stop to block more.

I believe it is time to get serious on issues like above and have enforcement agents or parking attendants and start issuing fines.

Years ago traffic wardens would do this but they have dried up now at this stage and I believe they are near all retired or left and are not replaced.

I can't see why clampers couldn't do enforcement as they would do very well on revenue from it.

Stephen15 · 08-06-2017 11:42pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Something that needs changing in the city is enforcement of bus stops as to keep the service running and safety of passengers and basically anyone else around.

Today like every other day private coaches are parked on Nassau st.

Private vehicles parking in and right up to bus stops.

Taxis making ranks and just sitting in bus stops blocking them for intended purpose.

Earlier seen a lady park up at connolly station and a bus pulled in to let passengers off safely including a buggy so getting to the kerb was IMO very good practice for safety of passengers alighting.

Do you think this fool would move .... No.

The driver had to get out to ask her to move but she still just sat there.

Eventually she moved off to then do an illegal u-turn. But ended up going back in to the stop to block more.

I believe it is time to get serious on issues like above and have enforcement agents or parking attendants and start issuing fines.

Years ago traffic wardens would do this but they have dried up now at this stage and I believe they are near all retired or left and are not replaced.

I can't see why clampers couldn't do enforcement as they would do very well on revenue from it.

A solution would be municipal police. Common enough on the continent employed by the local council to serve the purpose of policing of local more minor issues such as traffic and parking policing, donning the white gloves when the lights are out, policing byelaws etc.

Victor · 09-06-2017 2:50am

The buildings only talk up about half the Donnybrook site: https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3178533,-6.2318806,270m/data=!3m1!1e3

bk wrote: »

Build a large tall office building over the depot, but still have the depot there. Maybe even put the depot underground.

Next to a river that floods?

Bray Head · 10-06-2017 7:53am

Stephen15 wrote: »

Anyway protecting a structure is not based off personal taste its based off a buildings uniqueness something which this building is as its the first building in the world to a roof of its kind.

A decision to protect a structure is always done on personal taste! Planners and conservation fans like to claim there clear objective criteria but there aren't. It is just stuff they like, much of which is not that old.

Anyway you can browse the list of protected structures in Dublin and Donnybrook bus depot is not on it.

dublinman1990 · 10-06-2017 5:07pm

I just listened to a really good podcast from The Pat Kenny Show on Newstalk just now.

The podcast is on Pat Kenny's interview with Dr Jarett Walker about the redesign of the Dublin Bus Network.

If you missed the interview earlier this week; I recommend you to have a listen. A lot of very informative information in it explained in a very reasonable way.

http://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/The_Pat_Kenny_Show/Highlights_from_The_Pat_Kenny_Show/195019/The_plan_to_reinvent_Dublins_bus_system

Feckofff · 10-06-2017 5:21pm

Victor wrote: »

The buildings only talk up about half the Donnybrook site: https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3178533,-6.2318806,270m/data=!3m1!1e3Next to a river that floods?

The site is in a natural hollow and does flood quiet regularly. I would estimate at least once every ten years.
Of course you could build flood defences for the site but it would flood the neighbouring houses.

Stephen15 · 10-06-2017 5:56pm

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I just listened to a really good podcast from The Pat Kenny Show on Newstalk just now.

The podcast is on Pat Kenny's interview with Dr Jarett Walker about the redesign of the Dublin Bus Network.

If you missed the interview earlier this week; I recommend you to have a listen. A lot of very informative information in it explained in a very reasonable way.

http://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/The_Pat_Kenny_Show/Highlights_from_The_Pat_Kenny_Show/195019/The_plan_to_reinvent_Dublins_bus_system

Yeah I listened to it myself and I thought it was good. Forgot to post the link here

orangerhyme · 11-06-2017 2:23pm

Hes a fascinating guy.
His basic philosophy is to have a high frequency network where changing buses isnt penalised by buying another ticket.
This will require a simplification of certain routes and also adding 2 or 3 high frequency orbital routes.
Also a cashless card based ticketing system will most likely be introduced.

I think there will be little change in Luas, DART or other rail systems in the next 10 years really so we need to bet big on the bus network.

If you can imagine the bus network will be like the London underground.
Whereby you know that a bus is always coming as its such a high frequency and you can get anywhere in the city with just one change.

orangerhyme · 11-06-2017 2:27pm

orangerhyme · 11-06-2017 2:37pm

If you can imagine the above network but also with 2 or 3 orbital routes.
Its much more simplified.

The idea is you can get from anywhere in Dublin to another with just one change and to change buses will just require a short walk.

Also the simplification will mean that as opposed to the seemingly endless bus numbers, routes will just be color coded.

Another analogy would be to think of it like 5 routes being added to the Luas network. Each line will be colour coded and you will know where each route starts and ends, and how to change between them. Right now, I doubt anyone can say that about the bus network.

Victor · 11-06-2017 3:29pm

orangerhyme wrote: »

Also the simplification will mean that as opposed to the seemingly endless bus numbers, routes will just be color coded.

Numbers will still exist, although there is likely to be some rationalisation / simplification. It will only be in central areas (definition of 'central areas' will vary) that you can somewhat ignore numbers.

Dyr · 11-06-2017 3:45pm

orangerhyme wrote: »

Hes a fascinating guy.
His basic philosophy is to have a high frequency network where changing buses isnt penalised by buying another ticket.
This will require a simplification of certain routes and also adding 2 or 3 high frequency orbital routes.
Also a cashless card based ticketing system will most likely be introduced.

I think there will be little change in Luas, DART or other rail systems in the next 10 years really so we need to bet big on the bus network.

If you can imagine the bus network will be like the London underground.
Whereby you know that a bus is always coming as its such a high frequency and you can get anywhere in the city with just one change.

Has anyone told him about dublin bus?

you can have all the philosophy you want, it has to be implemented successfully.

brokenarms · 11-06-2017 4:28pm

Bambi wrote: »

Has anyone told him about dublin bus?

you can have all the philosophy you want, it has to be implemented successfully.

Yeah I was thinking that myself. The contract buyout of the marked in drivers alone will probably cost more than the new buses.

orangerhyme · 11-06-2017 5:10pm

Victor wrote: »

Numbers will still exist, although there is likely to be some rationalisation / simplification. It will only be in central areas (definition of 'central areas' will vary) that you can somewhat ignore numbers.

Its a guess on my part really, but I guess theyll keep lots of numbers, but I imagine color coded routes with color coded bus stops. This is will increase usability a lot I think.

Dyr · 11-06-2017 6:18pm

brokenarms wrote: »

Yeah I was thinking that myself. The contract buyout of the marked in drivers alone will probably cost more than the new buses.

You have to look at the organization that will be tasked with implementation. unless someone is standing over them holding them to account it will quickly slide back to whatever suits dublin bus.

Same with enforcement of lanes etc. Unless someone has to power to ensure its done then all their good ideas are goosed

Stephen15 · 11-06-2017 8:15pm

orangerhyme wrote: »

Its a guess on my part really, but I guess theyll keep lots of numbers, but I imagine color coded routes with color coded bus stops. This is will increase usability a lot I think.

Maybe a colour coded LED displays aswell like this one here. Common enough in some cities on the continent.

orangerhyme · 11-06-2017 8:25pm

People need to come together for the greater good and stop looking after self interest.
Dublin Bus is vital to the city and this is the first big redesign its ever had.

The LED system looks good. Maybe have something similar on the bus stops, or maybe its too late now with displays they have.

I honestly think Buses will be one of the first forms of to give way to automated systems. The Luas also.

So maybe instead of striking, they should be learning how to code.

orangerhyme · 11-06-2017 8:32pm

So for example, based on the above diagram: if I want to go from Crumlin to Ballymun, I hop on any Red line bus, hop off in the city center, walk to nearest Green line bus stop and take the next bus. It seems like a good system.
Right now Ive no idea to make transfers like this.

Peregrine · 11-06-2017 8:56pm

That's all well and good until you have to get a Mauve line bus to the city centre and interchange with the Turquoise bus. You're going to run out of common colours. You've already lost red and green to the Luas.

orangerhyme · 11-06-2017 9:06pm

You could have symbols or names of famous irish people also. I dont think we'd run out of colours anyway

Stephen15 · 11-06-2017 9:21pm

Why colours though when numbers work in nearly every other city.

orangerhyme · 11-06-2017 9:24pm

I mean numbers and colours together.

Kyleboy · 11-06-2017 9:24pm

orangerhyme wrote: »

People need to come together for the greater good and stop looking after self interest.
Dublin Bus is vital to the city and this is the first big redesign its ever had.

The LED system looks good. Maybe have something similar on the bus stops, or maybe its too late now with displays they have.

I honestly think Buses will be one of the first forms of to give way to automated systems. The Luas also.

So maybe instead of striking, they should be learning how to code.

Morse code?

orangerhyme · 11-06-2017 9:29pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Why colours though when numbers work in nearly every other city.

For example the blue line might have 11, 17 16 or whatever but all on the blue line.

Stephen15 · 11-06-2017 9:34pm

orangerhyme wrote: »

For example the blue line might have 11, 17 16 or whatever but all on the blue line.

Fair enough but my idea was to have colours aswell as numbers on LED displays. Most the times of seen this is in smaller cities so it might work better in likes of Cork, Galway or Limerick.

orangerhyme · 11-06-2017 9:43pm

yeah I think thats a good idea. The colour for simplicity and the number for specificity.

thomasj · 11-06-2017 9:56pm

Interestingly enough that route map seems to suggesting a return of the old 10 bus route and a merger of the northside 39A and southside 46A

Stephen15 · 11-06-2017 11:30pm

On the subject of middle doors the buses which are less often operated by a GT or an SG the middle doors are almost never used I was on a GT today on the 63 which is usually operated by an AX or an EV and the middle door was not used once compare to the 46a or the 145 which is mostly operated by them and the middle is used at most stops.

Victor · 12-06-2017 12:41am

Stephen15 wrote: »

Maybe a colour coded LED displays aswell like this one here. Common enough in some cities on the continent.

I would be slow to do this. Orange-red is much more vision-friendly than, say, green.

thomasj · 12-06-2017 12:50am

Stephen15 wrote:

Maybe a colour coded LED displays aswell like this one here. Common enough in some cities on the continent.

I'd be fairly sure, the NDA might have an issue with this, there are people out there that are colour-blind.

Victor · 12-06-2017 12:59am

thomasj wrote: »

Interestingly enough that route map seems to suggesting a return of the old 10 bus route and a merger of the northside 39A and southside 46A

It was specifically pointed out that there are no proposals at this time.

Bray Head · 12-06-2017 11:12am

Stephen15 wrote: »

On the subject of middle doors the buses which are less often operated by a GT or an SG the middle doors are almost never used I was on a GT today on the 63 which is usually operated by an AX or an EV and the middle door was not used once compare to the 46a or the 145 which is mostly operated by them and the middle is used at most stops.

I have no idea what you mean.

Stephen15 · 12-06-2017 11:17am

Bray Head wrote: »

I have no idea what you mean.

That the middle door isin't used on routes that aren't often operated GTs/SGs.

BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

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