Railfreight

Losty Dublin · 23-07-2012 10:38am

dowlingm wrote: »

in this electronic day and age there are ways to deliver documents and have verification of receipt without requiring physical pieces of paper to be countersigned, and surely IE isn't still issuing wages cheques but instead doing direct deposit? Even if it was required to hand carry them the delivering trains could carry a guard for that service who could then do ticket checking as well, with the circulars being stored in the rear cab (I think the 22s have a locker which allows IE to claim they could restore FastTrack while having no intention to?)

There is a lot of safety critical information is included in the WTT supplement. Many grades of staff have to sign to confirm receipt of a copy as a result. Copies are sent electronically but many staff require a paper copy to hand, such as the many who are not working in offices like on board or PW staff. If there was train guards or spare drivers to deliver them then I am sure your idea would be reasonable.

Judgement Day wrote:

Come on Losty you're just digging a yourself a hole now. Any train I travel on is met by whoever's on duty to wave their flag (except Rathdrum which mysteriously doesn't need a flag waver) and the circulars could be handed over then - even if it would disrupt the staff banter for a few seconds.

You know well enough that a driver and the man on the platform have to ensure that passengers board and alight safely and that the train moves off safely. Chasing around after parcels and signing off doesn't allow for safe boarding.

end of the road · 23-07-2012 1:34pm

they could multi task, they watch the passengers and hand over the circulars at the same time.

Losty Dublin · 23-07-2012 1:39pm

end of the road wrote: »

they could multi task, they watch the passengers and hand over the circulars at the same time.

Could you see the Railway Safety Commission agree to that one?

Judgement Day · 23-07-2012 7:18pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

You know well enough that a driver and the man on the platform have to ensure that passengers board and alight safely and that the train moves off safely. Chasing around after parcels and signing off doesn't allow for safe boarding.

If you seriously believe that, you should go for Dick Fearn's job as you would be a shoo-in.

Sligo Quay · 23-07-2012 10:48pm

Most of this discussion on circulars is a bit of a red herring, most whats in the circular anyway is generally fiction, most decisions and movements are handled on daily running notices, the weekly circular is just expensive toilet paper.

Judgement Day · 23-07-2012 11:39pm

Of course the weekly circulars are a red herring but as I said earlier on the thread - the delivery of the circulars is indicative of the CIE/IE mindset. They are NOT railway minded. The enthusiast community is full of the same type indviduals - some of whom even post on this forum - who never use the railway but like to photograph and comment on it.

John Denver · 25-07-2012 6:29am

Sligo Quay wrote: »

Hmmm well Esso fuel and homeheating oil actually left from ''your door'' Esso's own door on Alexandra rd and traveled all the way to the Esso storage fuel depot at Sligo Quay, no double handling, I could never understand IE getting out of this particular traffic, like Tara ore, it was ''door to door'' when its not door to door, well it kind of defeats the purpose

In 2003 the Esso fuel storage depot in Sligo was e.h.s. audited by Esso itself and the site was found to have alot of out-dated and hazardous work practises and the site needed up-grading and investment which Esso Ireland wasnt willing to provide as the consensus was with the N4 been vastly improved it was cheaper to move all flows by road. It had nothing to do with Iarnod Eireann getting out of this movement.

Hungerford · 25-07-2012 9:36am

Losty Dublin wrote: »

You know well enough that a driver and the man on the platform have to ensure that passengers board and alight safely and that the train moves off safely. Chasing around after parcels and signing off doesn't allow for safe boarding.

It's funny then that Translink make extensive use of their trains for passing documents etc. between stations without any resulting wave of fatalities.

davidlacey · 25-07-2012 10:17am

John Denver wrote: »

Sligo Quay wrote: »

Hmmm well Esso fuel and homeheating oil actually left from ''your door'' Esso's own door on Alexandra rd and traveled all the way to the Esso storage fuel depot at Sligo Quay, no double handling, I could never understand IE getting out of this particular traffic, like Tara ore, it was ''door to door'' when its not door to door, well it kind of defeats the purpose

In 2003 the Esso fuel storage depot in Sligo was e.h.s. audited by Esso itself and the site was found to have alot of out-dated and hazardous work practises and the site needed up-grading and investment which Esso Ireland wasnt willing to provide as the consensus was with the N4 been vastly improved it was cheaper to move all flows by road. It had nothing to do with Iarnod Eireann getting out of this movement.

But did IE encourage Esso to stay on rail or did they just accept this fate because just accepting it is just like getting out of it

dowlingm · 25-07-2012 2:12pm

Hungerford wrote: »

It's funny then that Translink make extensive use of their trains for passing documents etc. between stations without any resulting wave of fatalities.

A guard is mandated on NIR under their operating rules, isn't it? So there is no *additional* burden imposed by using hand delivery.

That said, Losty and I will have to agree to differ on the circulars - a cheap printer (let's say two because of the inevitable what if it breaks argument, and let's say inkjet because we wouldn't want to cause a H&S issue with ozone from a laser) would not only allow circulars to be printed but also for timetable updates to be printed and displayed in a timely and professional manner.

dowlingm · 25-07-2012 2:14pm

davidlacey wrote: »

But did IE encourage Esso to stay on rail or did they just accept this fate because just accepting it is just like getting out of it

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "encourage"? I do hope you don't mean either of

a) "go on go on go on go on go on go on go on"
b) a price cut, bearing in mind IE receive no government support for railfreight

Judgement Day · 25-07-2012 3:21pm

dowlingm wrote: »

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "encourage"? I do hope you don't mean either of

a) "go on go on go on go on go on go on go on"
b) a price cut, bearing in mind IE receive no government support for railfreight

And there you have it in a nutshell - the long standing laissez faire government attitude to the railways has lead to the present position where CIE gets it in the neck for losing traffic and can blame the government, and the government can say it's an operational matter for CIE and 'we are where we are'...:rolleyes:

Sligo Quay · 25-07-2012 7:21pm

John Denver wrote: »

In 2003 the Esso fuel storage depot in Sligo was e.h.s. audited by Esso itself and the site was found to have alot of out-dated and hazardous work practises and the site needed up-grading and investment which Esso Ireland wasnt willing to provide as the consensus was with the N4 been vastly improved it was cheaper to move all flows by road. It had nothing to do with Iarnod Eireann getting out of this movement.

Interesting, the tank wagons where also life expired as they dated from BR stock 1960s, they should have been upgraded to bogie tank cars if their was a will to stay in the business, theres always plenty of excuses to get out of rail freight, but not enough to stay in the business, the will just isn't there.
Iv actually fallen asleep listening to staff in IR giving a lonnnng list of excuses of why this and that can't be done, so so negative, Im tolded why it can't be done, but never tolded it can be done, yawn yawn, Im going for pint.

Losty Dublin · 25-07-2012 7:30pm

Hungerford wrote: »

It's funny then that Translink make extensive use of their trains for passing documents etc. between stations without any resulting wave of fatalities.

Of course, their trains have train guards on board to deal with such duties. Mind you, they also deliver documents to and from stations using couriers for some reason

davidlacey · 26-07-2012 10:35am

Any update on dfds liners? Has it been lost the road since moving to dublin port?

yachtsman · 26-07-2012 8:13pm

Yes:cool:

Sligo Quay · 26-07-2012 8:29pm

davidlacey wrote: »

Any update on dfds liners? Has it been lost the road since moving to dublin port?

Not quite lost to road, just diverted to Dublin Port, handled by IWT, DFDS has lost the business to IWT, but still going by rail, Dublin to Ballina instead of Waterford to Ballina.

davidlacey · 26-07-2012 9:24pm

Sligo Quay wrote: »

davidlacey wrote: »

Any update on dfds liners? Has it been lost the road since moving to dublin port?

Not quite lost to road, just diverted to Dublin Port, handled by IWT, DFDS has lost the business to IWT, but still going by rail, Dublin to Ballina instead of Waterford to Ballina.

Does this mean there is m

davidlacey · 26-07-2012 9:24pm

Sligo Quay wrote: »

davidlacey wrote: »

Any update on dfds liners? Has it been lost the road since moving to dublin port?

Not quite lost to road, just diverted to Dublin Port, handled by IWT, DFDS has lost the business to IWT, but still going by rail, Dublin to Ballina instead of Waterford to Ballina.

Does this mean there is more than the regular 5 workings a week then?

Sligo Quay · 26-07-2012 9:37pm

davidlacey wrote: »

Does this mean there is more than the regular 5 workings a week then?

1 extra midweek each way at the moment, Ballina to Dublin on Wednesday, Dublin / Ballina on Thursday, in negotiations at the moment for more. Things move at a snail pace in these areas, the ''flying snail'' is a myth, never existed except as a symbol on the side of a bus or loco.:D

yachtsman · 26-07-2012 11:41pm

The DFDS traffic is gone to road. You can see it on the M50 every day and the transition is working well according to a friend in the business. Whether tanks Interbulk and ECS will travel via IWT remains to be seen. Contacts in the road haulage game say that Port to West is more attractive to them than Bellview. They felt the pinch of the DFDS and IWT and reckon IE are not interested in the long run so they are regrouping for a fightback. Signs from the DfT indicate little knowledge and no interest or commitment to rail so logistics managers are anxious to keep a good proportion of traffic on the road. Transport keep remarking that the loss of the toll payments caused by rail is a subsidy to rail as they have to compensate some tollroads if revenue falls below a certain level !!!So you can see where their preference lies. One senior civil servant thought the containers were carrying timber from Galway to Dublin Port for export! The question is will IE decide to invest in rail equipment for other destinations than the West and build on what is a profitable business. My view is they won't. I think they are a busted flush. I'd have confidence if the road haulage industry was given control and access to the railfreight business but thats not likely.

dowlingm · 27-07-2012 3:31am

yachtsman wrote: »

Transport keep remarking that the loss of the toll payments caused by rail is a subsidy to rail as they have to compensate some tollroads if revenue falls below a certain level !!!

Given the length and frequency of freights at present that has to be a red herring surely. Railfreight is a drop in the bucket of cargo movements nationally.

L1011 · 27-07-2012 5:30pm

yachtsman wrote: »

Transport keep remarking that the loss of the toll payments caused by rail is a subsidy to rail as they have to compensate some tollroads if revenue falls below a certain level

Two specific tollroads, neither of which are on the way from Ballina to Waterford or Dublin.

I call "made up" on this.

yachtsman · 27-07-2012 6:56pm

Apart from the fact that the former dfds is using the m4 i reckon they mean the wholesale diversion of freight to rail would lead to significant loss of tolls. I agree its insignificant at present.

kc56 · 27-07-2012 8:01pm

And likely to remain so...

Dublin port has about 17000 truck movements per day and 80% of these are containers so that leaves 15,000 possible loads per day mostly 40ft. A standard IE freight train can take 18 wagons and lets say 30 containers (40' and 20' to fit on a 60' wagon). That's 500 train-loads per day!!! A more modest 10% of traffic would need 50 trains per day. That's a train every hour each way. I don't think the infrastructure is there in the port never mind the netork to handle that.

Therefore the toll operators have no fear of a move to rail.....

L1011 · 27-07-2012 8:18pm

yachtsman wrote: »

Apart from the fact that the former dfds is using the m4 i reckon they mean the wholesale diversion of freight to rail would lead to significant loss of tolls. I agree its insignificant at present.

The M4 does not receive any subsidies for traffic, nor did it ever - its not in their concession contract.

N18 and M3 only.

Sligo Quay · 27-07-2012 8:33pm

MYOB wrote: »

Two specific tollroads, neither of which are on the way from Ballina to Waterford or Dublin.

Correct, you can take the M9 and drive all the way to Waterford and not encounter a toll, that was down to Martin Cullen looking after Waterford supporters, but the Cork rd from Waterford on the new bridge I think is tolled, a lot of nonsense and spin about tolls........ I know many truckers who avoid tolls, they have toll avoidance down to a fine art, I know some truckers depart Dublin Port, go free through Port Tunnel, then take M3, come out somewhere near Kilcock/ Enfield, the Kinnegad, thus avoiding 2tolls, M50 M4, look start a thread on road tolls, be my guest.

Victor · 28-07-2012 2:19pm

yachtsman wrote: »

Transport keep remarking

Who? Where were these remarks made?

Sligo Quay wrote: »

I know some truckers depart Dublin Port, go free through Port Tunnel, then take M3, come out somewhere near Kilcock/ Enfield, the Kinnegad, thus avoiding 2tolls, M50 M4, look start a thread on road tolls, be my guest.

Are you sure about this? Those roads aren't in sequence.

Sligo Quay · 28-07-2012 5:02pm

Victor wrote: »

Who? Where were these remarks made?

Are you sure about this? Those roads aren't in sequence.

I listen to talk among the truckers themselves, don't ask me how they get from the N2 or N3 to the N4 or M4, probably have good road knowlege of cross country routes, if your driving the routes often enough, probably get it down to a fine art.

Losty Dublin · 29-07-2012 11:17am

Sligo Quay wrote: »

I listen to talk among the truckers themselves, don't ask me how they get from the N2 or N3 to the N4 or M4, probably have good road knowlege of cross country routes, if your driving the routes often enough, probably get it down to a fine art.

I'm guessing they are turning off the M 3 just before the Dunshaughlin toll plaza and heading via Trim and Summerhill to Kilcock and onto Enfield. Good move; for the sake of two tolls it's the guts of an hour over narrow roads, slow speeds, towns and the risk of a hold ups from agricultural traffic or get there way earlier.

AlekSmart · 29-07-2012 2:52pm

Sligo Quay wrote: »

Correct, you can take the M9 and drive all the way to Waterford and not encounter a toll, that was down to Martin Cullen looking after Waterford supporters, but the Cork rd from Waterford on the new bridge I think is tolled, a lot of nonsense and spin about tolls........ I know many truckers who avoid tolls, they have to have toll avoidance down to a fine art, I know some truckers depart Dublin Port, go free through Port Tunnel, then take M3, come out somewhere near Kilcock/ Enfield, the Kinnegad, thus avoiding 2tolls, M50 M4, look start a thread on road tolls, be my guest.

With margins in road haulage now cut to the bone,Truckers simply have no choice but to avoid,what in Irish terms,is just thievery.

IF the Government were serious about green issues and the rest of it then both Buses/Coaches and HGV's would be FREE of Tolls...but hey,just lookit where Mr Dempsey has brought us...to a land where the Toll Franchise deals are shrouded in secrecy and "Commercial Confidentiality" clauses....to protect who's interests exactly ?

corktina · 29-07-2012 3:00pm

well if you follow through the idea of free toll roads, the hauliers then wouldnt mibnd iof we went round and used their trucks... companies invested in the toll roads and if anyone doesnt want to use them, thats OK, but they need paying for and we didnt pay for them.

J Cheever Loophole · 15-08-2012 12:09pm

A ray of light perhaps? The following was posted by trackie1 on the Irish Railway News forum. Apologies if it has been mentioned elsewhere.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/business/irish-rail-ceo-indicates-that-foynes-rail-link-could-be-re-opened-1-4148299

From Limerick Leader
By Gerard Fitzgibbon
Published on Sunday 12 August 2012 09:00

IARNROD Éireann has given the clearest indication yet that the railway line between Foynes and Limerick city may be re-opened in the near future.

Iarnrod Éireann chief executive Richard Fearn has said that following discussions with management at the Shannon Foynes Port Company, it is believed that there will soon be enough commercial traffic to justify re-opening the line, which has been dormant since 2001.
Mr Fearn made the comments in response to a parliamentary question by Fine Gael TD Patrick O’Donovan regarding the future of the rail line, and what potential exists for it to be re-opened to freight traffic.

...

dowlingm · 15-08-2012 9:24pm

Sorry Dick, but we've heard this song before "in the near future", a "good business case" etc. The reality is Dick wants SFPC and the freight forwarders to pay everything (including reinstatement of LCs and viaduct refurbishment) and him nothing, and this is a position totally in keeping with the government's attitude to railfreight.

kc56 · 15-08-2012 11:19pm

dowlingm wrote: »

Sorry Dick, but we've heard this song before "in the near future", a "good business case" etc. The reality is Dick wants SFPC and the freight forwarders to pay everything (including reinstatement of LCs and viaduct refurbishment) and him nothing, and this is a position totally in keeping with the government's attitude to railfreight.

Not just the Government. EU regulations prohibit subsidisation of freight so every freight operation must be self financing. (And that is the main reason why there is so little freight operations at present). So unless there is a justification for passenger links to Foynes, the cost of re-instatement has to be included in the charges to the freight operators.

Jamie2k9 · 16-08-2012 6:54pm

Was on the 13.10 to Waterford today, while passing Kildare there was a almost full DFS liner on the centre track (Dublin Track) but the 201 loco was facing towords Cherryville. Was it operating from Northwall to Ballina or Ballina to Waterford (suposed to of ceased). Seems very strage for a Northwall-Ballina service to be stopped in Kildare as it would not be to common.

We then stopped at Cherryville waiting for an empty timter service to pass so the DFS would of had to get moving soon afterwords.

Losty Dublin · 16-08-2012 7:04pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Was on the 13.10 to Waterford today, while passing Kildare there was a almost full DFS liner on the centre track (Dublin Track) but the 201 loco was facing towords Cherryville. Was it operating from Northwall to Ballina or Ballina to Waterford (suposed to of ceased). Seems very strage for a Northwall-Ballina service to be stopped in Kildare as it would not be to common.

We then stopped at Cherryville waiting for an empty timter service to pass so the DFS would of had to get moving soon afterwords.

That was an IWS working between Ballina and Northwall; the Waterford liner stopped a month ago.

Jamie2k9 · 16-08-2012 7:06pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

That was an IWS working between Ballina and Northwall; the Waterford liner stopped a month ago.

We passed a Ballina-Northwall at Park West but if it was a second one why was the loco facing Ballina direction, do you mean it was heading from Northwall-Ballina.

Losty Dublin · 16-08-2012 7:42pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

We passed a Ballina-Northwall at Park West but if it was a second one why was the loco facing Ballina direction, do you mean it was heading from Northwall-Ballina.

Possibly, yeah. They have been known to run reliefs and extras on busy days as needed.

Hungerford · 17-08-2012 10:40pm

kc56 wrote: »

Not just the Government. EU regulations prohibit subsidisation of freight so every freight operation must be self financing. (And that is the main reason why there is so little freight operations at present).

Would that be the same EU that recently signed off on a massive €1 billion rail freight subsidy for Austria (http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/policy/ec-authorises-state-aid-for-austrian-railfreight.html)?

The reality is that the government could subsidise rail freight if the political willingness was there. But it isn't.

Robbo · 08-10-2012 7:45am

Long time follower to this thread, first time poster etc.

I spotted this (apologies for rubbish quality) going through Ceannt Station this morning. I presume this is some kind of box ticking exercise for IE to say that they're promoting Railfreight?

gobnaitolunacy · 08-10-2012 9:54am

Robbo wrote: »

Long time follower to this thread, first time poster etc.

I spotted this (apologies for rubbish quality) going through Ceannt Station this morning. I presume this is some kind of box ticking exercise for IE to say that they're promoting Railfreight?

Seen a few of those...including one at one station juxtaposed with an ad for a local BMW dealer exhorting people to 'make their own tracks'.... mixed messages for rail customers there.

Judgement Day · 08-10-2012 3:45pm

Reminds me of the giant billboards that CIE retained adjacent to some bridges on the North Kerry line which were still used to promote rail travel back in the 1980s - the route closed in 1963. :rolleyes:

Hungerford · 08-10-2012 4:15pm

I think a more recent example of that was IÉ promoting its new intercity railcars on billboards in Co. Donegal.

dowlingm · 28-11-2012 5:15am

IRN rumour has it that 12 pocket wagons are in Limerick for servicing with a view to re-entry to service. There doesn't seem to be clarity about intended purpose.

Losty Dublin · 28-11-2012 11:32am

dowlingm wrote: »

IRN rumour has it that 12 pocket wagons are in Limerick for servicing with a view to re-entry to service. There doesn't seem to be clarity about intended purpose.

DPDS didn't pull out of rail freight here; they just hadn't enough loads to keep up their committed contract for now. Suffice to say, they will be back; it's just a case of when.

Incidentally, I have heard of a potential new freight flow that is likely to come in after the new year. A regular daytime path has been freed up for it and it will involve container loads.

davidlacey · 28-11-2012 2:56pm

are containers the only real future for railfreight in ireland? anymore details on where in which this flow in the new year will be i.e ballina to waterford via kildare

dowlingm · 28-11-2012 3:07pm

davidlacey - the future of railfreight in Ireland is, in the main, whatever the port companies and the freight forwarders want it to be as long as IE doesn't bear losses.

Losty Dublin · 28-11-2012 3:51pm

davidlacey wrote: »

are containers the only real future for railfreight in ireland? anymore details on where in which this flow in the new year will be i.e ballina to waterford via kildare

Zinc and lead ore from Navan will be good for some years to come. The likelyhood of the Tipperary/Limerick Zinc deposits becoming viable traffic from Foynes is quite high given their projected volume of traffic will be similar to that from Navan and that it's virtually door to door.

Overall, the universal future of modern rail freight is pre packed containers/pallets or mineral ore; loads which have minimal loading time at freight heads. The day of sundries and mixed customer trains are fading away though they will have a role in some circumstances.

LivelineDipso · 28-11-2012 4:00pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Overall, the universal future of modern rail freight is pre packed containers/pallets or mineral ore; loads which have minimal loading time at freight heads. The day of sundries and mixed customer trains are fading away though they will have a role in some circumstances.

In many countries wagonload is thriving too. Depends on the mentality of the rail operator.

We do not have a rail operator with a mind.

As for the Tipp mining, I would not be too optimistic that ever going by rail. I would be amazed if Foynes ever saw another train. I was down there last week and the route has fallen into bits in the last 2 years.

The CIE 'Care and Maintainance' or 'Keep on Trucking' program is the only show down there now.

Railfreight

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