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Viability of small dairy farm

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    #122
    Kevhog1988
    Registered Users Posts: 3,968 ✭✭✭Kevhog1988


    Ford4life wrote: »
    Council are always stuck for mechanics so would be 9-5 there would suit grand and take time off for the important jobs around the place, calving, slurry, silage and youd be home in time for milking each day

    yes but youd be doing 2 days work in one. You have to realise that if/when you have a partner/kids in a few years you wont want to be out of the house from 5am to 10pm every day, presuming you are milking twice a day. Id say the joy of being around stock/milking wouldnt last too long if you were putting in a 100 hr week every week. Feck that like.


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    #123
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    Kevhog1988 wrote: »
    yes but youd be doing 2 days work in one. You have to realise that if/when you have a partner/kids in a few years you wont want to be out of the house from 5am to 10pm every day, presuming you are milking twice a day. Id say the joy of being around stock/milking wouldnt last too long if you were putting in a 100 hr week every week. Feck that like.

    No way. The council don't hire trades much like that nowadays unless they can really have to. The vast majority of work is being done by contractors and the councils have all been winding down their direct labour side of the organisation, not replacing retired or leaving staff, not replacing plant and machinery when it is life expired. The slack is increasingly taken up by contractors, who drive their staff very hard as they have to compete for to get the contracts.

    I work for a council and I often have to go for meetings at a machinery yard that has no machinery in it. Occasionally contractors use it as a base to run a job from, but most of the time it is just an empty yard. Even the salters are supplied by a plant leasing company for the council staff to use. Once the driver retires, the plant company will probably be supplying the driver too. But most of it is now empty and the former workshops are just used for storage space for deliveries.

    So forget the handy mechanic job in the council. That is a soon to be a thing of the past. Just forget it.


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    #124
    minerleague
    Registered Users Posts: 1,036 ✭✭✭minerleague


    Never regretted staying at home farming here ( different times maybe ) , had degree in engineering but 9-5 wasnt for me. I may not have the income that off farm job would provide but plenty upsides to compensate. OP needs to talk to parents ( achieve good leaving - more say in running farm etc and so on to achieve same qualification) . Quotas gone now but limits to new entrants in intensive areas might scupper plans in 10 years when travelling / training done. Think myself more land will become available in years to come , beef has gone from premium product to commodity now and see what has happened to pig and poultry sectors, a lot of part time beef farmers grew up when the farm was viable but will their children have the same gra ( dont think so )


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    #125
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,119 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Ford4life wrote: »
    im 17, work off the farm but im thinking a few years in advance when the father might eventually hand over the farm and peoples recommendations for different things to do with it

    Sucklers are not profitable by any means, if you have to rely on a SFP then its a waste of time, we are very understocked, keep the costs to a minimum and still lose money on them, unless we get €4 a kilo in the mart all of a sudden for weanlings then the last few sucklers will die out and leave the beef farmers rearing calves




    It is not guaranteed, but highly likely that you will change your outlook as you get older and get exposed to more things. You might hit 21 and all your old school pals who went off to do mickey mouse courses are suddenly heading off on J1s for great craic. Or you'll be seeing some girl who finishes her course and wants to go off on a working holiday for a year to Oz or similar and you won't be able to go with her



    No harm thinking things through and looking ahead but don't close any doors and leave your options open.


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    #126
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,119 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    minerleague wrote: »
    Never regretted staying at home farming here ( different times maybe ) , had degree in engineering but 9-5 wasnt for me. I may not have the income that off farm job would provide but plenty upsides to compensate. OP needs to talk to parents ( achieve good leaving - more say in running farm etc and so on to achieve same qualification) . Quotas gone now but limits to new entrants in intensive areas might scupper plans in 10 years when travelling / training done. Think myself more land will become available in years to come , beef has gone from premium product to commodity now and see what has happened to pig and poultry sectors, a lot of part time beef farmers grew up when the farm was viable but will their children have the same gra ( dont think so )




    The important difference for yourself is that you have that degree in your back pocket. That is great security to fall back onto. Because you have that security you can also take on a little bit more risk on the farm as well.


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    #127
    minerleague
    Registered Users Posts: 1,036 ✭✭✭minerleague


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    The important difference for yourself is that you have that degree in your back pocket. That is great security to fall back onto. Because you have that security you can also take on a little bit more risk on the farm as well.

    Was prob always going to farm here ( father was 65 when I finished college ) but yes would encourage some qualification to OP. try for something your interested in rather than something you assume will tie in with farming plans.


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    #128
    whelan2
    Registered Users Posts: 29,153 ✭✭✭✭whelan2


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    Perhaps no problems yet, but the big operators who have invested heavily in facilities and are stocking land to the maximum allowable, well, they are sailing close to the wind, have no margin or reserve if anything were to go wrong. A drop in demand or price, or a bad drought, could bring an operation like that with such tigh margins, large debts, and land and feed resouces maxxed out, crashing down if any cogwhell the system that supports it all falters.

    I think it is only a matter of time before there is an upset.

    Every bubble that ever was, burst. Why should milk be the exception?

    Fair enough, there have been no massive shifts in 5 years. OK. But what terms are these fellas borrowing over? 15, 20, 25? That timescale gives a lot more scope for market shifts or weather induced hardships to break the knife edge run farms. Look at the past 25 years. Property up, property bust. dot com up, dot com bust. Are you telling me dairy will be the one bubble that will continue forever?

    And one more thing, for an inevitable event, the longer time goes on without an event happening, the more likely it is to happen.

    In my view, the part time suckler lad who starts making inroads into dairy and taking on debts to do so, is the agriculture equivalent of the 2007 taxi driver with a Bulgarian property portfolio.
    Why are you so worried about them. I'm sure they have their figures done in the event of something happening. Covid is happening and brexit too and we are still here


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    #129
    Base price
    Registered Users Posts: 11,164 ✭✭✭✭Base price


    whelan2 wrote: »
    Why are you so worried about them. I'm sure they have their figures done in the event of something happening. Covid is happening and brexit too and we are still here
    It always amazes me why some people are forever concerned about other peoples enterprises.
    A local man bought land (80 odd acres) adjoining him a couple of years ago to increase his home farm base by double. He wouldn't be the most popular guy in the area but he keeps to himself and minds his own business. We would lift the finger to each other when we meet on the road but that would be the height of it. He and his son (early/mid 20's) decided to go dairying and build a new parlour, etc The nosey begrudging neighbours are all wondering how he is going to pay for the land, parlour etc. I wish them the best of luck in the enterprise and any time I'm passing the home farm or their out farm in the lorry I always throw an eye over the hedge at the cows/heifers to see if any are in trouble. Last Nov I saw a cow on her feet in a gripe and since I didn't have his phone number I phoned another lad that I knew had. I told him about the cow and he phoned your man to let him know, since then I get a slightly friendlier wave when I meet them on the road :)
    People would be better off concerning themselves about what goes on inside their own farm gates.


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    #130
    minerleague
    Registered Users Posts: 1,036 ✭✭✭minerleague


    Base price wrote: »
    It always amazes me why some people are forever concerned about other peoples enterprises.
    A local man bought land (80 odd acres) adjoining him a couple of years ago to increase his home farm base by double. He wouldn't be the most popular guy in the area but he keeps to himself and minds his own business. We would lift the finger to each other when we meet on the road but that would be the height of it. He and his son (early/mid 20's) decided to go dairying and build a new parlour, etc The nosey begrudging neighbours are all wondering how he is going to pay for the land, parlour etc. I wish them the best of luck in the enterprise and any time I'm passing the home farm or their out farm in the lorry I always throw an eye over the hedge at the cows/heifers to see if any are in trouble. Last Nov I saw a cow on her feet in a gripe and since I didn't have his phone number I phoned another lad that I knew had. I told him about the cow and he phoned your man to let him know, since then I get a slightly friendlier wave when I meet them on the road :)
    People would be better off concerning themselves about what goes on inside their own farm gates.

    I thin OP is 17 and came looking for advice, hard to give advice without giving examples or figures. Dont think posters are being nosey in that sense. ( could be wrong - nearly crashed the jeep several times looking over the hedge :eek: )


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    #131
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,119 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Base price wrote: »
    It always amazes me why some people are forever concerned about other peoples enterprises.
    A local man bought land (80 odd acres) adjoining him a couple of years ago to increase his home farm base by double. He wouldn't be the most popular guy in the area but he keeps to himself and minds his own business. We would lift the finger to each other when we meet on the road but that would be the height of it. He and his son (early/mid 20's) decided to go dairying and build a new parlour, etc The nosey begrudging neighbours are all wondering how he is going to pay for the land, parlour etc. I wish them the best of luck in the enterprise and any time I'm passing the home farm or their out farm in the lorry I always throw an eye over the hedge at the cows/heifers to see if any are in trouble. Last Nov I saw a cow on her feet in a gripe and since I didn't have his phone number I phoned another lad that I knew had. I told him about the cow and he phoned your man to let him know, since then I get a slightly friendlier wave when I meet them on the road :)
    People would be better off concerning themselves about what goes on inside their own farm gates.


    To be fair, they are probably wondering how the land can pay for itself and be trying to figure out what they might be doing wrong themselves.


    If you started with 160 acres and decided to move to dairy from scratch, you would have a big liability on your back. It would be a fair investment.

    To do that with another debt for 80 acres (1m maybe?) is another level. You also can't write off the cost of the land as an expense.



    It's a lot when you are starting off with only 80 to begin with. You man might have come into some money unknown to his neighbours.


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    #132
    Ford4life
    Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭Ford4life


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    maybe some bit but an awful lot of main dealers wouldn't even have the proper gear either. They either can't afford it themselves or are just pure tight because it isn't them having to risk life and limb out there on she shop floor.

    I think the likes of FarmFlix and Grassmen has popularised and glamourised farming and the daysul lifestyle. But young people need to realise that what is shown on those is not in any way representative of what the real life of machinery and farming is about. mechanicing jobs are amongst the worst, if not the worst, paid trade.

    For any lad that is intelligent and driven, it really is a waste of their potential to get go down that road.

    I see fellas that are in that sector with years and they all have bad backs in their 30s, health problems in their 40s escalating in their 50s with heart attacks and unsually dead before they are 70

    You probably are right about the dealerships or the vast majority of them, would you know much about McCarthy's the claas dealer? From what I have heard they're very good to work for
    You are definitely right about farmflix and grassmen, not all sunshine and rainbows, drawing grass with not a care in the world, reality is cattle and calves dying, things breaking down etc
    As bad are the facilities mat be now in dealerships theyre bound to have improved some bit from when those fellas started working
    Im a fairly driven fella, average enough intelligence and sometimes below average with some of the ideas i come up with


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    #133
    Ford4life
    Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭Ford4life


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    No way. The council don't hire trades much like that nowadays unless they can really have to. The vast majority of work is being done by contractors and the councils have all been winding down their direct labour side of the organisation, not replacing retired or leaving staff, not replacing plant and machinery when it is life expired. The slack is increasingly taken up by contractors, who drive their staff very hard as they have to compete for to get the contracts.

    I work for a council and I often have to go for meetings at a machinery yard that has no machinery in it. Occasionally contractors use it as a base to run a job from, but most of the time it is just an empty yard. Even the salters are supplied by a plant leasing company for the council staff to use. Once the driver retires, the plant company will probably be supplying the driver too. But most of it is now empty and the former workshops are just used for storage space for deliveries.

    So forget the handy mechanic job in the council. That is a soon to be a thing of the past. Just forget it.

    Might be the case in your local council but there's 3 fellas working inside the council and always looking for more fellas to work there, running apprenticeships and everything to get fellas in


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    #134
    Ford4life
    Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭Ford4life


    minerleague wrote: »
    Never regretted staying at home farming here ( different times maybe ) , had degree in engineering but 9-5 wasnt for me. I may not have the income that off farm job would provide but plenty upsides to compensate. OP needs to talk to parents ( achieve good leaving - more say in running farm etc and so on to achieve same qualification) . Quotas gone now but limits to new entrants in intensive areas might scupper plans in 10 years when travelling / training done. Think myself more land will become available in years to come , beef has gone from premium product to commodity now and see what has happened to pig and poultry sectors, a lot of part time beef farmers grew up when the farm was viable but will their children have the same gra ( dont think so )

    Was your home farm always dairy? The thing is when you have the love for farming you have the love for it and that's just the way it is, money doesnt matter as much when doing something you love, pretty much full time managing the home farm myself already, sat around 300-350 points in the leaving atm, lot of beef farms in my area plus i dont know how much longer these dairy farms can afford to rent hundreds of acres, feed hundreds of cattle and pay fellas to look after them, closed off on 3 sides of the farm and the busy mainroad is closing off the other side, there is some ~20 acres there that could be bought for 2 or 3 thousand an acre i reckon as its good land that went to **** with furze bushes, bits and pieces of rock that would have to be buried there, couple weeks with a 13 ton digger would make an awful difference and it could be grazed if push came to shove and grass growth stopped in a drought.
    Not too bothered about travelling the world, might go to NZ or Aus drawing silage for a season or two but i am a bit of a home bird i suppose would be the word for it


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    #135
    Ford4life
    Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭Ford4life


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    It is not guaranteed, but highly likely that you will change your outlook as you get older and get exposed to more things. You might hit 21 and all your old school pals who went off to do mickey mouse courses are suddenly heading off on J1s for great craic. Or you'll be seeing some girl who finishes her course and wants to go off on a working holiday for a year to Oz or similar and you won't be able to go with her



    No harm thinking things through and looking ahead but don't close any doors and leave your options open.

    vast majority of my friends are dairy farmers with the odd few beef farmers like myself thrown in, a summer in Oz or NZ drawing silage sounds like good fun tbh, variety is the spice of life as they say, now all i gotta do is find a girlfriend :D


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    #136
    Ford4life
    Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭Ford4life


    whelan2 wrote: »
    Why are you so worried about them. I'm sure they have their figures done in the event of something happening. Covid is happening and brexit too and we are still here

    Thats true tbfabout brexit, there was a lot of fellas got into deep water when the milk price was down to 19c/l a few years ago my father told me so they would surely be atleast half prepared for the **** to hit the fan


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    #137
    Ford4life
    Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭Ford4life


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    The important difference for yourself is that you have that degree in your back pocket. That is great security to fall back onto. Because you have that security you can also take on a little bit more risk on the farm as well.

    Exactly, having a backup plan is very important, if things did go to **** then there will still be machines to be fixed, theres fella who would have nothing to fall back on if things do collapse


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    #138
    funkey_monkey
    Registered Users Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭funkey_monkey


    How many cows does IFarm WeFarm have? Is he not floating in around the 60 mark.


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    #139
    vurstflavor
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 46 ✭vurstflavor


    Some of my family members have 1000 acres and another job to pay the bills


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    #140
    Ford4life
    Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭Ford4life


    Base price wrote: »
    It always amazes me why some people are forever concerned about other peoples enterprises.
    A local man bought land (80 odd acres) adjoining him a couple of years ago to increase his home farm base by double. He wouldn't be the most popular guy in the area but he keeps to himself and minds his own business. We would lift the finger to each other when we meet on the road but that would be the height of it. He and his son (early/mid 20's) decided to go dairying and build a new parlour, etc The nosey begrudging neighbours are all wondering how he is going to pay for the land, parlour etc. I wish them the best of luck in the enterprise and any time I'm passing the home farm or their out farm in the lorry I always throw an eye over the hedge at the cows/heifers to see if any are in trouble. Last Nov I saw a cow on her feet in a gripe and since I didn't have his phone number I phoned another lad that I knew had. I told him about the cow and he phoned your man to let him know, since then I get a slightly friendlier wave when I meet them on the road :)
    People would be better off concerning themselves about what goes on inside their own farm gates.

    I'm pretty sure no one would wish bad luck on the big dairy fellas, we might be talking **** about them but wouldn't wish bankruptcy on them at all, just don't understand why some fellas double the land, double the cows, double the parlour, double the costs and employing a fella to look after them all for the sake of keeping up with the neighbours, because if he's doing it then he must know something I don't, same as when you see the first fella throwing out the fertilizer and then the next day the countryside will be plastered with fertilizer spreaders :D
    fair play to ya keeping an eye on the cattle in the field for him when ya pass, most people wouldn't be arsed


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    #141
    Ford4life
    Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭Ford4life


    minerleague wrote: »
    I thin OP is 17 and came looking for advice, hard to give advice without giving examples or figures. Dont think posters are being nosey in that sense. ( could be wrong - nearly crashed the jeep several times looking over the hedge :eek: )

    Advice is appreciated, havent we all been looking in over the ditch for a bit too long and had to swerve back in our lane when we turn back to the road :D
    Recent figures are the best as lot can change in 10 years


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    #142
    minerleague
    Registered Users Posts: 1,036 ✭✭✭minerleague


    Ford4life wrote: »
    Was your home farm always dairy? The thing is when you have the love for farming you have the love for it and that's just the way it is, money doesnt matter as much when doing something you love, pretty much full time managing the home farm myself already, sat around 300-350 points in the leaving atm, lot of beef farms in my area plus i dont know how much longer these dairy farms can afford to rent hundreds of acres, feed hundreds of cattle and pay fellas to look after them, closed off on 3 sides of the farm and the busy mainroad is closing off the other side, there is some ~20 acres there that could be bought for 2 or 3 thousand an acre i reckon as its good land that went to **** with furze bushes, bits and pieces of rock that would have to be buried there, couple weeks with a 13 ton digger would make an awful difference and it could be grazed if push came to shove and grass growth stopped in a drought.
    Not too bothered about travelling the world, might go to NZ or Aus drawing silage for a season or two but i am a bit of a home bird i suppose would be the word for it

    No, sucklers here (45 when quotas went), drystock in fathers time ( no patience or skill whealin & dealin with me). Just to add you'll never again have the drive or ambition that you have in your 20s to start something new. ( have to do your own figures of course and live your own life) Should prob add I have (to me anyway) decent SFP as to how I can farm fulltime


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    #143
    Jjameson
    Registered Users Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Jjameson


    The good years in beef in the last 20 years can be counted with at best a couple the fingers of one hand. (Above the cost of production)The really bad years of dairying would not use all the others.
    If you are serious about farming Op you are backing the right enterprise in terms of profitability. I think your figures are realistic.
    However a saying used in these parts for dairying is “to be tied to a cows tail to be scuttered to death”
    Not in your late teens twenties and even early 30’s when you’ve a few wild oats to sow and hopefully crop failures!


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    #144
    Ford4life
    Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭Ford4life


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    To be fair, they are probably wondering how the land can pay for itself and be trying to figure out what they might be doing wrong themselves.


    If you started with 160 acres and decided to move to dairy from scratch, you would have a big liability on your back. It would be a fair investment.

    To do that with another debt for 80 acres (1m maybe?) is another level. You also can't write off the cost of the land as an expense.



    It's a lot when you are starting off with only 80 to begin with. You man might have come into some money unknown to his neighbours.

    Opened the biscuit tin ;) 80 acres is nearly enough to keep 80 cows anyway depending on quality of the land, might have only started with 40 acres or something, over 25 years repayment for landwould be 40,000 if paying 1m for the 80 acres, thats quite achievable with 80 cows, parlour would be 100,000 or more depending on amount of clusters and what spec they go for, maybe 120,000 on a cubicle shed for them, plus assuming his son is qualified for tams grant thats 72,000 back on the cubicle shed bundle all the costs together into a 25 year loan we'll say 1148000 to repay then interest of 3% each year would be 35,000, round it up to 1.2m to repay over 25 years would be 48000 in repayments with interest included each year thats quite achievable considering with 24 cows i accounted for 10000 in repayments for first 4 years with ~20k profit, then with 3.3 times the cows you could have roughly 50-60k income after repayments are taken away
    Its a big advantage to not have to buy land when starting out
    Disclaimer: These figures are very rough estimates


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    #145
    Ford4life
    Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭Ford4life


    funkey_monkey wrote: »
    How many cows does IFarm WeFarm have? Is he not floating in around the 60 mark.

    I think around the 60-70 cows mark, he keeps his cards close to his chest, he was always milking cows i think so thats a big advantage, my father was milking cows before but gave it up as working as a builder carpenter jack of all trades kind of fella you'd be wore out and having to go milk cows then, tis the cost of getting into them is the problem always


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    #146
    Ford4life
    Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭Ford4life


    vurstflavor wrote: »
    Some of my family members have 1000 acres and another job to pay the bills

    Are they in tillage with that kind of acreage?


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    #147
    Ford4life
    Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭Ford4life


    minerleague wrote: »
    No, sucklers here (45 when quotas went), drystock in fathers time ( no patience or skill whealin & dealin with me). Just to add you'll never again have the drive or ambition that you have in your 20s to start something new. ( have to do your own figures of course and live your own life) Should prob add I have (to me anyway) decent SFP as to how I can farm fulltime

    You must have a serious SFP or just be a really tight ****er :D Thats what im worried about aswell that i would lose the ambition to go dairying, no one would want to be getting into cows in their 30s with kids around the place maybe and be milking until their 60s to clear the debt on the farm, once you hit your 30s most people become complacent with their jobs no matter how mundane and just dont change as they dont know any different and get into a routine of getting up going to work get home throw themselves down on the couch as they have no energy left and go to bed rinse and repeat
    What breed of cattle do you have and do you finish the cattle? Would you be making a loss without the SFP?


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    #148
    einn32
    Registered Users Posts: 988 ✭✭✭einn32


    Ford4life wrote: »
    60 cows managed well would easily give you a good wage to live off of, money isnt my biggest concern either my love is for farming and its what i want to do, working 1000 hours a year roughly at home for a tenner at the end of it so as you can see i do it for the love of it! :D
    I'd argue that the fellas with 60-80 cows managed well would be earning more than the lads with 200 having to pay others to look after them

    Fair enough so. I think most lads don't care about the money either. They just milk cows. Best of luck with it.


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    #149
    Ford4life
    Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭Ford4life


    Jjameson wrote: »
    The good years in beef in the last 20 years can be counted with at best a couple the fingers of one hand. (Above the cost of production)The really bad years of dairying would not use all the others.
    If you are serious about farming Op you are backing the right enterprise in terms of profitability. I think your figures are realistic.
    However a saying used in these parts for dairying is “to be tied to a cows tail to be scuttered to death”
    Not in your late teens twenties and even early 30’s when you’ve a few wild oats to sow and hopefully crop failures!

    Glad that im not too far off with my figures, wont be a millionaire but as long as i can make a living at it im happy, no point in letting the cows rule your life, have to have some sort of life outside of it, be it down to the pub for a few pints and a chat with other fellas, I dont know what you mean by praying for crop failure, you have to breed your own farm relief! Isnt that the sole purpose of having children :D


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    #150
    Ford4life
    Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭Ford4life


    einn32 wrote: »
    Fair enough so. I think most lads don't care about the money either. They just milk cows. Best of luck with it.

    The bit of money is just a bonus :) wont be a millionaire with it but will be comfortable anyway all things going well which is the main thing


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    #151
    minerleague
    Registered Users Posts: 1,036 ✭✭✭minerleague


    Ford4life wrote: »
    You must have a serious SFP or just be a really tight ****er :DThats what im worried about aswell that i would lose the ambition to go dairying, no one would want to be getting into cows in their 30s with kids around the place maybe and be milking until their 60s to clear the debt on the farm, once you hit your 30s most people become complacent with their jobs no matter how mundane and just dont change as they dont know any different and get into a routine of getting up going to work get home throw themselves down on the couch as they have no energy left and go to bed rinse and repeat
    What breed of cattle do you have and do you finish the cattle? Would you be making a loss without the SFP?

    Ha - close to the truth there:D Did my own accounts for years, no farm, house, or tractor insurance , any building /cattle crushes etc done myself. Use accountant now ( gone lazy), was surprised when he told me people eat into SFP, Lim / salers sucklers (all finished )


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