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Can we talk about AH?

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Comments

  • #602
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 77,612 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Dale Doback wrote: »
    B0jangles, you're "being a dick" at this stage.

    The Mod made a decision and backed it up with his reasoning. Get over it.

    You're just soapboxing now.
    While I may have some sympathy with your comments, can you please just report concerns and leave it to mods (or in this particular forum the Admins) to have a look at

    Thanks


  • #603
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    Contrary to the opinion that there is ugliness, intolerance or disrespect in the trans thread I find the people on both sides of the discussion to be generally nice people who for the most part are being open and robust in their arguments from either side. I would have a beer with any of them in real life, even the ones who don't like my opinion. This is a huge issue that cannot be closed down with appeal to pity fallacies and so on. There will be occasional slips of the tongue and animus from either side, strong sentiment, edgy back and forth, but that is the adult world, where we are all entitled to our diverse opinions.


  • #604
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,211 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    B0jangles wrote: »
    No-one is asking you to control people's thoughts. You can and should require people to follow the charter which explicitly tells people 'don't be a dick'; even if that means forcing them to treat trans people with the bare minimum of respect.


    B0jangles I agree that you do have a point, but you used a terrible example to make it. The author of the tweet themselves referred to their penis themselves when they suggested that anyone who disagrees with them should suck on it. To be honest I won’t say I’ve lived a sheltered life, but the last time I heard similar sentiments expressed were that awful “GI Jane” film in which Demi Moore suggests that her CO “suck my dick” -

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvoRNuGccGo



    That was back some time in the mid-90’s. I’ve never heard a collective groan from a cinema audience like it since :pac:

    It was unnecessary then, it’s unnecessary now, for anyone to suggest someone who disagrees with them should suck on their penis. For you to use that to suggest any response to it would be motivated by transphobia is ridiculous, frankly, as the person themselves made their argument all about their penis.

    If someone showed up here to argue that gay people were deluded and perverted and a likely threat to children, they'd rapidly and rightly be banned for being repulsively homophobic. The same cannot be said for people saying the same sorts of things about trans people.

    The thing about refusing to sanction this kind of shít is that pretty quickly the only posters you have left are the ones who want to post this shít.

    Everyone else leaves.

    (how are boards sign-ups looking these days? - lots of new users who definitely aren't the same old reregs coming back for the 50th time?)


    As someone who was here during The Great Shìtposting Era (circa 1998 - present), I can assure you that I have witnessed plenty of groups in society experience the kind of bigotry and prejudice you’re referring to, and to be honest, you yourself have been at the Vanguard of many of these challenges to various groups in society whose perspective you didn’t agree with.

    Suddenly when the beliefs of a group you identify yourself with that are being challenged, you’re demanding people respect their beliefs and their right to tell women who challenge them, to suck on their dick?

    Ehhh... no, frankly.


  • #605
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    But I can also see why this further supports the need for a separate free access current affairs forum like AH but...well, current affairs :) ... where those who want a happy style AH don't have to be offended by the presence of challenging threads when they click on their AH page.


  • #606
    Baggly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    Zorya wrote:
    But I can also see why this further supports the need for a separate free access current affairs forum like AH but...well, current affairs ... where those who want a happy style AH don't have to be offended by the presence of challenging threads when they click on their AH page.


    I agree. I think there is appetite for both.


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  • #607
    Fr_Dougal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,166 ✭✭✭Fr_Dougal


    Can we re-ban toilet threads again? They’re stomach churning and vile.


  • #608
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Beasty wrote: »
    While I may have some sympathy with your comments, can you please just report concerns and leave it to mods (or in this particular forum the Admins) to have a look at

    Thanks


    Don't worry, I've said all I have to say and I've made my point as well as I can.


    I specifically didn't raise any of this in the original thread because I know that questioning mod action in-thread is a big no-no. So I brought my feedback here to 'Feedback'; apparently I have overstepped and given just too damn much feedback.


    Apologies.


  • #609
    Baggly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    B0jangles wrote:
    I specifically didn't raise any of this in the original thread because I know that questioning mod action in-thread is a big no-no. So I brought my feedback here to 'Feedback'; apparently I have overstepped and given just too damn much feedback.


    I appreciate that b0jangles and do appreciate the discussion also, even if we don't agree on all points.


  • #610
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,522 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Fr_Dougal wrote: »
    Can we re-ban toilet threads again? They’re stomach churning and vile.

    well don't read them then.

    I think they add much needed humour back to AH


  • #611
    klaaaz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭klaaaz


    Zorya wrote: »
    This is a huge issue that cannot be closed down with appeal to pity fallacies and so on.

    The transgender issue is not a huge issue in Ireland where 99% plus of the population are not transgender and that 99% plus couldn't care what that tiny minority do in their private lives. There have been too many trans related threads in AH even in my short time registered here, why oh why have they not been in the LGBT forum where specific answers can be found or maybe in one mega thread for AH?
    One eyed Jack wrote:
    It was unnecessary then, it’s unnecessary now, for anyone to suggest someone who disagrees with them should suck on their penis

    That post in AH is inappropriate, talking about anatomy like that should not be imported from twitter, it is indecent posting about "sucking on a d**k". There maybe a young audience in AH and they do not need language like that in their face, call me on morals or what but AH has it's title as Social and Fun, not explicit sexual stuff like that.


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  • #612
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,139 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    klaaaz wrote: »
    ...............


    That post in AH is inappropriate, talking about anatomy like that should not be imported from twitter, it is indecent posting about "sucking on a d**k". There maybe a young audience in AH and they do not need language like that in their face, call me on morals or what but AH has it's title as Social and Fun, not explicit sexual stuff like that.


    Taking that level of prudishness to posting guidelines would effectively kill the place.


  • #613
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,801 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    well don't read them then.

    I think they add much needed humour back to AH

    How is it humour?


  • #614
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,522 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    looksee wrote: »
    How is it humour?

    how is it not?


  • #615
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,801 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    If you have to answer a question with a question you don't have a great deal of confidence in your argument.


  • #616
    Baggly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    looksee wrote:
    If you have to answer a question with a question you don't have a great deal of confidence in your argument.


    You sure? :D


  • #617
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,522 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    looksee wrote: »
    If you have to answer a question with a question you don't have a great deal of confidence in your argument.

    I don't understand you question. It is of course funny, I don't understand how you can think its not. Do you not have a sense of humour?


  • #618
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,801 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    You are referring to a. bodily functions and b. waste disposal. Sleeping, eating, drinking, washing are necessary functions or activities, none of them are inherently funny. You might be able to find or create a joke in relation to one of these, but it isn't the basic act that is funny. You can empty rubbish bins, clean the sink, pour dirty water down a drain. Again nothing specifically funny about any of these.

    The scatalogical threads are created just to create an opportunity to discuss bodily waste, because of left-over notions from childhood and a glee in thinking that it is edgy (or something) to say things that you think are regarded as outrageous or embarrassing. When in fact it is just boring and/or distasteful.

    On the other hand it is not necessary to ban them, that would be playing into the hands of the people who are trying to be outré.


  • #619
    Fr_Dougal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,166 ✭✭✭Fr_Dougal


    Surely The Cuckoos Nest would be a better place for them?


  • #620
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 77,612 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Fr_Dougal wrote: »
    Surely The Cuckoos Nest would be a better place for them?
    Isn't that where the banks have been selling their tracker mortgages?



    :)


  • #621
    dulpit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,434 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    The difference with the toilet threads of late versus the usual current AH items is that while you might not find them funny, they are not in themselves anti-anybody, unlike the usual fare of AH (anti-traveller, anti-dole, anti-muslim, anti-feminist, anti-etc).

    More poo threads would make for a happier AH.


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  • #622
    Hedgelayer
    Registered Users Posts: 530 ✭✭✭Hedgelayer


    dulpit wrote: »
    The difference with the toilet threads of late versus the usual current AH items is that while you might not find them funny, they are not in themselves anti-anybody, unlike the usual fare of AH (anti-traveller, anti-dole, anti-muslim, anti-feminist, anti-etc).

    More poo threads would make for a happier AH.

    There's money in Sh1t I tell you


  • #623
    McMurphy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    Just regarding the political threads getting shunted off to the Cafe, depending on whatever far from clear factors get them shunted there:


    The Saoirdh/Love Ulster thread has been going for weeks now,

    Opened by a poster who has been repeatedly banned from politics threads, and now sits there as a tit for tat thread, with posters continually popping in and out to post such cool and edgy comments such as "zzzzzz" and "yawn" then followed up a few days later with comments like "Bobby Sands Batter Burger" which - imo is the very epitome of what trolling is.

    Apart from that, you have dozens (possibly hundreds at this stage) from a (I strongly believe) previously site banned poster who is posting stuff that is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, demanding proof from posters of things they never said, and likewise answer questions not asked of them, they've even gone to the lengths of suggest people have edited their posts (I believe only admin and moderators have this ability) to try and make it look like they posted things they didn't. (Cuck fcuking Coo)

    Thread has descended into a complete and utter car wreck, and it's not surprising that the usual, and previous site banned accounts are heavily involved in it.

    I've reported a few posts, but then just adopted a "fcuk it, sure they don't seem to give a shyte" attitude when noone gets pulled into line.


  • #624
    Kivaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    Just out of curiosity, what was the thinking behind merging threads where one dealt with gangland shootings/murders and organised crime, and the other was about teenage scumbags in Dublin?

    Link: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057832446&page=494


  • #625
    Ken.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,898 ✭✭✭✭Ken.


    Kivaro wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity, what was the thinking behind merging threads where one dealt with gangland shootings/murders and organised crime, and the other was about teenage scumbags in Dublin?

    Link: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057832446&page=494

    Because for the last 2 days both threads have been discussing the same thing. Every time something big comes up they both were going on about the same thing. One thread is enough.


  • #626
    Kivaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    Nosnon wrote: »
    Because for the last 2 days both threads have been discussing the same thing. Every time something big comes up they both were going on about the same thing. One thread is enough.

    Not sure what you are talking about here, but there is a lot of unnecessary confusion going on in that thread at the moment.
    Could a CMod or Admin take a look please?


  • #627
    Omackeral
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    Nosnon wrote: »
    Because for the last 2 days both threads have been discussing the same thing. Every time something big comes up they both were going on about the same thing. One thread is enough.

    A mod note to that end would have done the trick.

    One thread is discussing the ongoing and much publicised Gangland activity that has been raging on our and is very organised in its nasture. The other was discussing the arguably less publicised teenage sh*theads running amok in North County Dublin and its surrounds i.e. Balbriggan and the DART line towns.

    Two totally different topics.


  • #628
    Ken.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,898 ✭✭✭✭Ken.


    And for the last day and a half both have been discussing the recent murders in Dublin. Same every time a murder happens.


  • #629
    pjohnson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,148 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Yeah the two threads were odd they had morphed into one topic long before the merge.


  • #630
    MrFresh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭MrFresh


    Johnny Dogs wrote: »
    Just regarding the political threads getting shunted off to the Cafe, depending on whatever far from clear factors get them shunted there:


    The Saoirdh/Love Ulster thread has been going for weeks now,

    Opened by a poster who has been repeatedly banned from politics threads, and now sits there as a tit for tat thread, with posters continually popping in and out to post such cool and edgy comments such as "zzzzzz" and "yawn" then followed up a few days later with comments like "Bobby Sands Batter Burger" which - imo is the very epitome of what trolling is.

    Apart from that, you have dozens (possibly hundreds at this stage) from a (I strongly believe) previously site banned poster who is posting stuff that is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, demanding proof from posters of things they never said, and likewise answer questions not asked of them, they've even gone to the lengths of suggest people have edited their posts (I believe only admin and moderators have this ability) to try and make it look like they posted things they didn't. (Cuck fcuking Coo)

    Thread has descended into a complete and utter car wreck, and it's not surprising that the usual, and previous site banned accounts are heavily involved in it.

    I've reported a few posts, but then just adopted a "fcuk it, sure they don't seem to give a shyte" attitude when noone gets pulled into line.


    A user can edit their posts within a certain time limit without any indication of it appearing to others. I don't believe even admins can see when this happens.

    Omackeral wrote: »
    A mod note to that end would have done the trick.

    One thread is discussing the ongoing and much publicised Gangland activity that has been raging on our and is very organised in its nasture. The other was discussing the arguably less publicised teenage sh*theads running amok in North County Dublin and its surrounds i.e. Balbriggan and the DART line towns.

    Two totally different topics.


    It was just another immigration thread. Should have been moved to PC rather than being merged with the feud stuff.


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  • #631
    Kivaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    Nosnon wrote: »
    And for the last day and a half both have been discussing the recent murders in Dublin. Same every time a murder happens.

    I cannot recall that happening on the Dublin gangs thread, and if I did miss it, it certainly was not prevalent.
    A "back on topic" warning could have been easily given if that was the case, as in most threads when the topic veers sideways. I do not recall any warning about discussing murders in the last day and a half.

    Had a quick look at the thread you merged it with, and it has been totally consumed by the Gangland Shooting thread, and all we are reading about now are posts about the supposed identity of a shooter in the Gangland wars.

    So mission accomplished by you. You figured out a way to stop the discussion about the African gangs, or mostly African gangs, causing strife in the Dublin area. They were not shooting anybody, but they ended up on a thread about Gangland Shootings. I'd say their parents wouldn't be too pleased about that.


  • #632
    Brian201888
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,058 ✭✭✭Brian201888


    Really daft decision to merge the threads, two entirely separate issues and it's a really crap way to shut down a conversation that obviously made you uncomfortable.


  • #633
    Kivaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    It would be nice if an Admin took a look at this.
    I understand that this thread cannot now be un/de-merged at this stage, but it may show bias, which should not exist in the moderation of these types of threads.
    We, as in royal we, understand that there is reticent by Boards AH mods to not allow the discussion of anything that relates negatively to the new residents in our State, but it really should not be a taboo subject.

    As a matter of fairness, the merging of these two diverse threads should be discussed at an admin/business level.
    All we are asking for is impartially.


  • #634
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 77,612 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Kivaro wrote: »

    As a matter of fairness, the merging of these two diverse threads should be discussed at an admin/business level.
    All we are asking for is impartially.
    Just on this point, we have always adopted a hands-off approach except when there are specific issues we feel we need to deal with at site level. Imagine the outcry if we left ourselves open to accusations of censoring or indeed directing debate. We get accused of that already, but it simply does not happen

    On the specifics of these two threads, I've not been actively involved in either. I may have dipped into the Gangland Shootings one in the past, but not over the past month or so

    I've actually had some major real life issues going on this week, and have certainly not had time to look at anything beyond dealing with some of the regular re-reg trolls and a DRP. I'm heading out now, and will be travelling tomorrow not getting back until Tuesday evening. Other Admins may get a chance to have a look, and indeed I may get some time as I'm sitting on a ferry tomorrow afternoon. but if you want dedicated Admin attention it is likely to take some time for any of us not close to the underlying threads to get up to speed


  • #635
    Baggly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    Hope all is OK Beasty. Safe travels.


  • #636
    Boom_Bap
    Moderators, Music Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,734 Mod ✭✭✭✭Boom_Bap


    In relation to the merge, before it happened I couldn't tell which thread I was looking at as they were both talking about the same things.

    I think that the natural thing to do was merge to keep a single conversation. The started out as different topics but have circled in on the same discussion.


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  • #637
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    The gangland shooting thread had nothing in common with the other thread (which I don’t read). I clicked into the thread to see a few pages of posts to read, thought something big had happened like another shooting. But I had to trawl through numerous posts about weed and even a post saying everyone is growing their own! It was a confused mess. I still dunno what those posts have to do with organised crime.

    I seriously thought there was a glitch in the system. It was a ridiculous merge. Would it not have been easier to warn the other thread to get back on topic? You could have directed anyone that wanted to discuss the shootings to the gangland thread.


  • #638
    Omackeral
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    Pretty much this
    Pacing Mule wrote: »
    Ridiculous thread merging.

    Gangs of youths acting the bollox ≠ gangs of criminals shooting each other


  • #639
    Kivaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    I would like to see examples from the last day and a half (according to Nosnon) where these two threads could not be distinguished.
    I cannot recall posts about gangland shooters and their identities on the youth gangs thread.

    Beasty, thank you for responding. Your opinion is highly respected by many of us.
    Hope everything works out for you in the coming days.


  • #640
    McMurphy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    MrFresh wrote: »
    A user can edit their posts within a certain time limit without any indication of it appearing to others. I don't believe even admins can see when this happens.


    Yeah I know that, but a user can't edit another users posts, which is what your one was seemingly suggesting I did.


  • #641
    Gimme A Pound
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    Absolutely baffled by the impunity one particular regular AH poster seems to enjoy.

    Sneers and insults and winding up non stop. They get banned all right, but short-term, and then straight back to their original m.o. Just ****ting all over threads (metaphorically; I'm not talking about the poo threads, which I find much more enjoyable!)


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  • #642
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    He's an absolute buffoon. No idea of how to respond to any confrontational post without throwing the toys out of the pram and causing a scene.

    He's going to die of embarrassment if he ever looks back at these posts when he grows up.


  • #643
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 77,612 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Arely Dazzling Sidecar wrote: »
    Absolutely baffled by the impunity one particular regular AH poster seems to enjoy.

    Sneers and insults and winding up non stop. They get banned all right, but short-term, and then straight back to their original m.o. Just ****ting all over threads (metaphorically; I'm not talking about the poo threads, which I find much more enjoyable!)
    Deleted User wrote: »
    He's an absolute buffoon. No idea of how to respond to any confrontational post without throwing the toys out of the pram and causing a scene.

    He's going to die of embarrassment if he ever looks back at these posts when he grows up.
    This is not the place to discuss individual (albeit unnamed) posters. Can we therefore move away from discussing individuals like this

    Thanks


  • #644
    Dial Hard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,920 ✭✭✭✭Dial Hard


    Beasty wrote:
    This is not the place to discuss individual (albeit unnamed) posters. Can we therefore move away from discussing individuals like this

    Can I ask, where is that place? Genuine question. Reporting posts doesn't seem to make any difference? (Speaking generally here, I've no idea who the previous posters are referring to.)


  • #645
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 77,612 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Dial Hard wrote: »
    Can I ask, where is that place? Genuine question. Reporting posts doesn't seem to make any difference? (Speaking generally here, I've no idea who the previous posters are referring to.)
    It's a matter of speaking to local mods initially, and if not satisfied then speaking to CMods. After that any complaints are dealt with in the Help Desk forum where Admins and/or Office staff can get involved

    I would discourage anyone from naming anyone they are complaining about openly - it's unfair to have a discussion taking place about you in an open forum possibly without your knowledge. Replies (not the Opening Post) in Help Desk are pre-moderated allowing posters to relay confidential information which can be left unapproved. Only Office Staff, all Admins and Mods/CMods with responsibility for Help Desk can see unapproved posts


  • #646
    Gimme A Pound
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    Beasty wrote: »
    This is not the place to discuss individual (albeit unnamed) posters. Can we therefore move away from discussing individuals like this

    Thanks
    Reporting is futile.


  • #647
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,139 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    I see a few more threads dumped in the "Cafe" from AH to wither and die. If they were to be moved anywhere (and personally I don't think they should be), surely politics would be the better option, given the small numbers that use the "cafe".


  • #648
    Boom_Bap
    Moderators, Music Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,734 Mod ✭✭✭✭Boom_Bap


    Odhinn wrote: »
    I see a few more threads dumped in the "Cafe" from AH to wither and die. If they were to be moved anywhere (and personally I don't think they should be), surely politics would be the better option, given the small numbers that use the "cafe".


    There are probably a bunch of posts in an AH thread which violate the Politics Charter, but not that of the Cafe.


  • #649
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,139 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Boom_Bap wrote: »
    There are probably a bunch of posts in an AH thread which violate the Politics Charter, but not that of the Cafe.




    Probably, but given that as of this post there are 10 people looking at the cafe and 110 at the politics forum, it's the equivalent of taking them out and shooting them.


  • #650
    dulpit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,434 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    Odhinn wrote: »
    Probably, but given that as of this post there are 10 people looking at the cafe and 110 at the politics forum, it's the equivalent of taking them out and shooting them.

    So get more people to look at the cafe?

    Just because one forum has higher traffic than another is not a reason for you to post in that forum...


  • #651
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,139 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    dulpit wrote: »
    So get more people to look at the cafe?

    Just because one forum has higher traffic than another is not a reason for you to post in that forum...




    With a poster count that low, its the equivalent of talking to yourself. Facts are that there's far fewer posting on boards generally, and dragging off a thread thats gone to over 800 posts on a lively forum and dumping it in a long failed experiment is self defeating at best. If its going to be moved (and I don't think any should have been) it might at least be put somewhere where the conversation might continue.


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