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"Analysts"

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    #122
    Nucular Arms
    Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭Nucular Arms


    smash wrote: »
    You're neither, it's just a part of your over all job. Ask any designer or developer and you'll find they do the same thing. These job specs of "software engineer" just piss me off.

    That seems kind of arbitrary though. I mean software engineering as a discipline has been around for what? 30 years odd.

    Also why not take umbrage at the term developer? Is it any less ambiguous? And what is your definition of an engineer anyway? Surely they could just as easily be called builders?


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    #123
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,657 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »
    I'm an analyst in the purest sense of the word, in that I have passed the exams needed to become a CFA (Certified Financial Analyst). I must admit to being annoyed when I see some graduate with a 2.1 degree from UCD and two years of work experience for AIB describe himself on a CV as a financial analyst. An analyst of what? Self-delusion? Come back to me when you've put in over 1200 hours of study over a three year period to get the only qualification that matters in our industry.


    I'm sure you mean Chartered Financial Analyst there Aongus, right? :confused:



    Shame it's not an MBA, eh? ;)


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    #124
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,953 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    I bet it has always been this way. Imagine the job description 'typist' when typewriters were brand new. You know the person typed for a living but it tells you nothing about the setting, the type of material, is it replication or original material. Was it in a regal court, legal court or were they a forger? Private or public sector?

    The same characters who didn't know what 'typist' meant would have been complaining that typists were illusive and self important.


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    #125
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    You've misunderstood. I haven't tried to spoof. In fact I've overtly declined to inform you about the particulars of my research. I'm enjoying your ignorance to tell the truth.

    Not only do we not now understand what analysts do, it seems clear that analysts don't know what analysts do.


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    #126
    Mickey H
    Registered Users Posts: 1,822 ✭✭✭Mickey H


    PandaPoo wrote: »
    What else can you call a nail technician?

    Nail Painter
    Nail Decorator
    Jacinta


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    #127
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,953 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Eugene Norman wrote: »
    Not only do we not know understand what analysts do, it seems clear that analysts don't know what analysts do.

    The op was hostile to the job title and those who do it, then demanded that I tell him what it means. I decided not to oblige him. Would you go into detail in that situation?


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    #128
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Nucular Arms wrote: »
    That seems kind of arbitrary though. I mean software engineering as a discipline has been around for what? 30 years odd.

    Also why not take umbrage at the term developer? Is it any less ambiguous? And what is your definition of an engineer anyway? Surely they could just as easily be called builders?

    They're not engineers, they're designers and developers. Engineer has a clear definition:

    "a person who designs, builds, or maintains engines, machines, or structures."


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    #129
    Cold War Kid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,353 ✭✭✭Cold War Kid


    "Don't be afraid to user your nails boys!"


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    #130
    Nucular Arms
    Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭Nucular Arms


    smash wrote: »
    They're not engineers, they're designers and developers. Engineer has a clear definition:

    "a person who designs, builds, or maintains engines, machines, or structures."

    Well since you seem committed to the terminology employed..

    Structure - Definition: a complex construction or entity

    Entity - Definition:
    Something having real or distinct existence; a thing, esp when considered as independent of other things

    In all fairness you have no reason to feel the way you do. It's a perfectly reasonable application of the term engineer. You're just trying to be pedantic to cover the irrationality of your objections.


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    #131
    Nucular Arms
    Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭Nucular Arms


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I'm sure you mean Chartered Financial Analyst there Aongus, right? :confused:



    Shame it's not an MBA, eh? ;)

    Someday I dream of earning a Most Business Achiever too! ;)


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    #132
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,447 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    The op was hostile to the job title and those who do it, then demanded that I tell him what it means. I decided not to oblige him. Would you go into detail in that situation?

    Keep being evasive. The term is too generic and that is why loads of people use it. They don't want to use a word that more accurately describes their role because they are so precious.


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    #133
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Nucular Arms wrote: »
    Well since you seem committed to the terminology employed..

    Structure - Definition: a complex construction or entity

    Entity - Definition:
    Something having real or distinct existence; a thing, esp when considered as independent of other things

    In all fairness you have no reason to feel the way you do. It's a perfectly reasonable application of the term engineer. You're just trying to be pedantic to cover the irrationality of your objections.

    It's not irrational to object to it. It's taking a phrase and assigning it where it doesn't belong. Why do certain companies now call developers or designers, engineers?


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    #134
    Nucular Arms
    Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭Nucular Arms


    smash wrote: »
    It's not irrational to object to it. It's taking a phrase and assigning it where it doesn't belong. Why do certain companies now call developers or designers, engineers?

    Ok well the word engineer was originally a Norman word used to describe someone who built military siege equipment. At some stage the meaning of the word evolved to encompass a broader definition of someone who generally built things.

    The point is that language is not fixed and that it evolves over time. Your assertion that the term engineer shouldn't apply to someone who builds software is irrational because it is based on the faulty premise that your idea of what an engineer means or where the term came from or what it should apply to is the definitive ideal for the term when it is not, strictly speaking.

    It is also irrational due to the fact that using your own terminology to describe an engineer I was able to assign a legitimate use case for the term as applied to the discipline of software engineering.

    You seem to prefer the term developer for no apparent reason other than that engineer annoys you, which is almost the definition of irrational thought in that it follows no rational or logical reason based motive to arrive at your conclusion, given your proposition.


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    #135
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Nucular Arms wrote: »
    Ok well the word engineer was originally a Norman word used to describe someone who built military siege equipment. At some stage the meaning of the word evolved to encompass a broader definition of someone who generally built things.

    The point is that language is not fixed and that it evolves over time. Your assertion that the term engineer shouldn't apply to someone who builds software is irrational because it is based on the faulty premise that your idea of what an engineer means or where the term came from or what it should apply to is the definitive ideal for the term when it is not, strictly speaking.

    It is also irrational due to the fact that using your own terminology to describe an engineer I was able to assign a legitimate use case for the term as applied to the discipline of software engineering.

    You seem to prefer the term developer for no apparent reason other than that engineer annoys you, which is almost the definition of irrational thought in that it follows no rational or logical reason based motive to arrive at your conclusion, given your proposition.

    I guess it annoys me because I feel that using it to describe the role of a software developer or designer just undervalues the use of it for careers where it's the only word to describe it. Where it without a doubt belongs. All done in the hopes of making people feel more important.


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    #136
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    smash wrote: »
    It's not irrational to object to it. It's taking a phrase and assigning it where it doesn't belong. Why do certain companies now call developers or designers, engineers?

    1)The term software engineering is older than developer.
    2) most software engineers have computer science or B.Eng backgrounds, and are therefore scientists or engineers.


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    #137
    Eugene Norman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,191 ✭✭✭Eugene Norman


    smash wrote: »
    I guess it annoys me because I feel that using it to describe the role of a software developer or designer just undervalues the use of it for careers where it's the only word to describe it. Where it without a doubt belongs. All done in the hopes of making people feel more important.

    Software developers are most definitely engineers ie applied scientists.

    The term is as old as the industry.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_engineering


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    #138
    Nucular Arms
    Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭Nucular Arms


    smash wrote: »
    I guess it annoys me because I feel that using it to describe the role of a software developer or designer just undervalues the use of it for careers where it's the only word to describe it. Where it without a doubt belongs. All done in the hopes of making people feel more important.

    That's fair enough I suppose. My own understanding of the history of the discipline is that there was a concerted effort to introduce the term software engineer in or around the 80's in an attempt to legitimise and bring a greater amount of accountability to the field. At the time there were just 'programmers' and there wasn't really a defined framework within which the growing complexity of software projects could be easily and reproducibly managed. There was little to no general consensus on best practice's or on standardised methodologies that could translate to different projects with reproducible or predictable results. Someone would hire a bunch of programmers to build something and they would all divy up the work and then each would do their own part basically however they felt like and at the end they would jury rig it all together until they had a system.

    Obviously this approach was incredibly difficult to maintain or extend, and the knowledge of any part of the system rested solely with the individual programmer who built it. If he left the company or whatever and you had to add some functionality you were screwed because you'd have to go in and reverse engineer what that particular guy had done essentially unilaterally before you could even attempt to alter the program.

    So my understanding is that a bunch of movers and shakers in the industry came up with the idea of promoting standards and methodologies that, if everyone knew about and subscribed to, should lead to more accurate time frames, more easily maintained systems and a more rigorous methodology all around. Basically constructing the field of 'software engineering' as a result.

    So now today when you're taught software engineering in college and you learn all your lovely UML, OOP, design patterns etc. you can rely on the fact that everyone new to field has the same common background to draw from and further expand upon.


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    #139
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    To be honest I wouldn't actually mind if the phrase "software engineer" was used correctly or if it had a defined role but it's been so interchangeable with other titles these days and because of its overuse, it just doesn't hold value over the title of 'developer'. A lot of companies use it to make a role look more attractive. Hell, I've even had 'engineer' offered as an extension to my title in a previous role as a bargaining tool to stop me moving to a competitor, but it would have by no means extended my responsibilities.


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    #140
    Badly Drunk Boy
    Registered Users Posts: 6,452 ✭✭✭Badly Drunk Boy


    Mr_Muffin wrote: »
    Subway are always looking for 'Sandwich Artists'. Seems like you'd need a degree of some sort for that.
    Nothing much to do with the thread, but earlier on the Channel 4 election coverage, comedian Roisin Conaty mentioned how sometimes she forgets very common words and not being able to remember the word 'sandwich', she referred to her sandwich as a 'double bread'.

    (She also got the lowest ever score on Countdown.)


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    #141
    Nucular Arms
    Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭Nucular Arms


    smash wrote: »
    To be honest I wouldn't actually mind if the phrase "software engineer" was used correctly or if it had a defined role but it's been so interchangeable with other titles these days and because of its overuse, it just doesn't hold value over the title of 'developer'. A lot of companies use it to make a role look more attractive. Hell, I've even had 'engineer' offered as an extension to my title in a previous role as a bargaining tool to stop me moving to a competitor, but it would have by no means extended my responsibilities.

    Perhaps you're right. I mean I tend to think of myself as more of a programmer I guess. When I think of a 'proper' software engineer I think of the likes of building guidance systems for airliners or interpreting the data from the LHC at cern or something. I still believe that it can be reasonably applied in a lot of cases though. I mean if you're building a serious financial services product or something its a non trivial project.

    I suppose I see what you mean in a sense but it wouldn't really bother me either way.


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    #142
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,953 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Keep being evasive. The term is too generic and that is why loads of people use it. They don't want to use a word that more accurately describes their role because they are so precious.

    I'm not being evasive. I've overtly told you that, since you were hostile to both the job title and those who do the job, I don't want to share the information with you.

    If you're always this hostile to people when you ask them then that's probably the reason why they dont go into detail and allows you to continue not knowing what they do. It does seem to upset you to an unusual degree.

    What makes you feel entitled to detailed information about other people's jobs?


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    #143
    Endaaaagh
    Registered Users Posts: 637 ✭✭✭Endaaaagh


    Analysts?
    They're only 1 letter removed from Anal Cysts :D:D:D:pac::pac::pac:


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    #144
    Special Circumstances
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    smash wrote: »
    They're not engineers, they're designers and developers. Engineer has a clear definition:

    "a person who designs, builds, or maintains engines, machines, or structures."
    That's a pretty crap, narrow definition of engineer that completely ignores how you are accessing the internet, the internet itself and several huge employers in Ireland.

    I prefer the theory of it being derived from ingenuity/genius.
    I do agree however that the term is used a bit too loosely in some countries and businesses.


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