Hydrogen powered production Hyundai Nexo does 778km on 1 tank.

Markcheese · 11-12-2019 12:12pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I doubt it would be. H2 infrastructure would only need to be rolled out to a relatively few sites (there are only a couple hundred filling stations in the country now anyway).

Kerbside charging would need to see every footpath in every residential street ripped up.

Yup, it's being done all the time, virgin media are currently ripping up footpaths in Midleton to put in fibre optic cables,no big deal...
Running an under pavement cable from a street light to, say, a thin steel bollard with a power lead inside isn't exactly rocket science,

Padre_Pio · 11-12-2019 12:27pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Yup, it's being done all the time, virgin media are currently ripping up footpaths in Midleton to put in fibre optic cables,no big deal...
Running an under pavement cable from a street light to, say, a thin steel bollard with a power lead inside isn't exactly rocket science,

Or put it in the street light. Having every point a charge point is unnecessary.

cruizer101 · 11-12-2019 12:31pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

CNG cars should not be hard to convert to hydrogen when the time comes

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Hydrogen cars will be using fuel cells to convert the fuel to electricity and use that to drive motor.

To the best of my knowledge we are a long way of practical fuel cells for methane, so CNG cars would be using more traditional combustion to get the energy from it.

Secondly the tanks needed to store hydrogen are a far higher spec than needed for other gases.

In general I don't think hydrogen is the way forward, it has too many issues in terms of storage and transport.
If we could get methane fuel cells working that would be ideal as already have a network for its distribution and it can potentially be made in environmental friendly way via biogas digesters.

Wibbs · 11-12-2019 1:59pm

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Hydrogen is flammable and explosive so safety is absolutely paramount.

So is petrol.

But yeah the "you're driving a Hindenburg" would be an easy enough sell alright.

cruizer101 wrote: »

If we could get methane fuel cells working that would be ideal as already have a network for its distribution and it can potentially be made in environmental friendly way via biogas digesters.

This in a big way. If it comes to pass, then I can see the fuel cell being a pretty strong alternative.

Ubbquittious · 11-12-2019 2:26pm

cruizer101 wrote: »

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Hydrogen cars will be using fuel cells to convert the fuel to electricity and use that to drive motor.

To the best of my knowledge we are a long way of practical fuel cells for methane, so CNG cars would be using more traditional combustion to get the energy from it.

Secondly the tanks needed to store hydrogen are a far higher spec than needed for other gases.

In general I don't think hydrogen is the way forward, it has too many issues in terms of storage and transport.
If we could get methane fuel cells working that would be ideal as already have a network for its distribution and it can potentially be made in environmental friendly way via biogas digesters.

You dont have to use fuel cells if you don't want to. You might have to change the CNG injectors out for hydrogen the only real big change will be the tank.

liamog · 11-12-2019 2:55pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

You dont have to use fuel cells if you don't want to. You might have to change the CNG injectors out for hydrogen the only real big change will be the tank.

Burning Hydrogen in a combustion engine is around 20-25% versus 60% using it in a fuel cell. Its a pretty daft way to waste energy.

Ubbquittious · 11-12-2019 8:23pm

liamog wrote: »

Burning Hydrogen in a combustion engine is around 20-25% versus 60% using it in a fuel cell. Its a pretty daft way to waste energy.

It should be a bit bette than 25% but it would still be less efficient. The system is simpler though and any cars with fuel cells also seem to rely on lithium ion batteries as a buffer

theguzman · 12-12-2019 1:11am

The Hydrogen car will be the way forward unless super-capacitor batteries with a 1,000km range are developed and rechargeable in say under 30 minutes. Lithium technology cannot achieve this, Lithium has disastrous environmental effects, so Hydrogen produced from Renewable energy is the best solution as of now.

Lets imagine, bus and major truck companies, they could easily spend €1m per week on Diesel, build a few windturbines to generate their own Green Power and with Hydrogen they could go entirely green.

Houses could replace their Kerosene and LPG tanks with a Hydrogen tank and fuel cell to produce Electricity for heating etc. A stable country like Saudi Arabia, Oman or Dubai, Northern Brazil etc. could blanket a few square miles of desert with Solar plants, use that renewable power to produce renewable Hydrogen from seawater and the oiltankers of the past would be replaced with Hydrogen tankers.

mikeecho · 12-12-2019 1:33am

theguzman wrote: »

The Hydrogen car will be the way forward unless super-capacitor batteries with a 1,000km range are developed and rechargeable in say under 30 minutes. Lithium technology cannot achieve this, Lithium has disastrous environmental effects, so Hydrogen produced from Renewable energy is the best solution as of now.

Lets imagine, bus and major truck companies, they could easily spend €1m per week on Diesel, build a few windturbines to generate their own Green Power and with Hydrogen they could go entirely green.

Houses could replace their Kerosene and LPG tanks with a Hydrogen tank and fuel cell to produce Electricity for heating etc. A stable country like Saudi Arabia, Oman or Dubai, Northern Brazil etc. could blanket a few square miles of desert with Solar plants, use that renewable power to produce renewable Hydrogen from seawater and the oiltankers of the past would be replaced with Hydrogen tankers.

I can refill my 1200km 70L diesel tank a lot faster than 30 min., I'm guessing 5 minutes.

I honestly believe that CNG will be the next big thing

Audi have a Gtron line. CNG cars are currently being manufactured.
I'm an eye witness to this

theguzman · 12-12-2019 2:14am

mikeecho wrote: »

I can refill my 1200km 70L diesel tank a lot faster than 30 min., I'm guessing 5 minutes.

I honestly believe that CNG will be the next big thing

Audi have a Gtron line. CNG cars are currently being manufactured.
I'm an eye witness to this

A 20 to 30 mins recharge time on a 1000km range would be ok, because lets imagine Ireland and say you wanted to drive from the Dursey Island Cable Car in West Cork to Ballycastle in North Antrim a journey of 653km and about the longest journey possible in Ireland between two points (longer than Malin to Mizen).

With a 7hrs 30 mins drive time you are surely going to stop at least once for to eat and use the bathroom and a 20 to 30mins recharge time at say Junction 14 on the M7 would be perfectly acceptable, with 1000km range you could complete the journey without recharging along the way if you left home fully charged.

My problem with electric vehicles today is that battery range is terrible and then it takes too long to recharge. A fast recharge on smaller capacity battery would be okay if you had a 500km range but a 30mins recharge time. However you then have problems with charging stations ICED or out of order. You can't beat range and this where Hydrogen clearly wins against current battery technology. You can refuel on hydrogen in similar times to Diesel or Petrol and you get similar range making Hydrogen the natural successor in my view.

I drove a car on LPG for six years and availability of the fuel was always a problem but by always planning carefully I rarely ran out and it extended the cars life far beyond what I had imagined until I replaced it with Diesel in 2018. I still have the LPG car and keep it as a classic now and still clock up around 2,000kms per year on it, mainly on journeys to towns where LPG is available to purchase.

I don't see LPG or CNG having any future since they emit C02 and the whole mantra is towards lower and zero emissions and wheras modern BEV cars actually increase emissions over the most efficient "dirty Diesels" and I hope Hydrogen or else super capacitor tech is way forward because lithium ion batteries certainly are not.

Padre_Pio · 12-12-2019 9:48am

Houses could replace their Kerosene and LPG tanks with a Hydrogen tank and fuel cell to produce Electricity for heating etc. A stable country like Saudi Arabia, Oman or Dubai, Northern Brazil etc. could blanket a few square miles of desert with Solar plants, use that renewable power to produce renewable Hydrogen from seawater and the oiltankers of the past would be replaced with Hydrogen tankers.

Why would you bother going to the hassle of using electricity to create hydrogen, then transport it, store it and convert it to electricity, when every house has electricity already??

It doesn't make any sort of sense. It takes more power to create hydrogen than you would ever get back through burning or a fuel cell.

The economic of these arguments don't stack up. Range anxiety is less and less a thing on you hit the 400-500km mark, which new EVs are hitting. Regarding charge times, if you can charge at home your time is zero. New Tesla fast charging can add 75 miles in 5 mins, which is more than enough to get you most places, people who buy EVs have accepted they may spend time waiting for cars to charge and plan accordingly.

You're comparing apples to oranges, current EV tech with future, mystical, 5-10 years in the future hydrogen technology.

Yawlboy · 12-12-2019 11:38am

I spoke with a friend of mine who works for a gas company (O2 to hospitals etc.) He said that he sees home alternative (solar/wind) powered hydrogen production, with local storage of both the gas and conversion to electricity, being the future for both home and transport needs. I'm not convinced its viable but he says there are major advances coming down the track.

I think he might be on to something as his company literally makes products from thin air.

whippet · 12-12-2019 3:53pm

I know of a company who are heavily invested in H2O as a viable fuel and are making some in roads .

The efficiency of electrolysis is getting better and so is the engineering of cooling / storing hydrogen ... this company is already using wind and solar to generate H2O which is then being used in either fuel cells or converted back to Electricity.

ELM327 · 12-12-2019 3:57pm

Yawlboy wrote: »

I spoke with a friend of mine who works for a gas company (O2 to hospitals etc.) He said that he sees home alternative (solar/wind) powered hydrogen production, with local storage of both the gas and conversion to electricity, being the future for both home and transport needs. I'm not convinced its viable but he says there are major advances coming down the track.

I think he might be on to something as his company literally makes products from thin air.

Why would you generate H2 at home?
It takes 3kWh of stored energy to make 1kWh of H2.
Wouldnt you prefer to store that 3kWh to use as energy directly and remove the fool cell middle man?

Padre_Pio · 12-12-2019 6:07pm

Yawlboy wrote: »

I spoke with a friend of mine who works for a gas company (O2 to hospitals etc.) He said that he sees home alternative (solar/wind) powered hydrogen production, with local storage of both the gas and conversion to electricity, being the future for both home and transport needs. I'm not convinced its viable but he says there are major advances coming down the track.

I think he might be on to something as his company literally makes products from thin air.

I still don't understand the "Why?"

Why would you do this when you already have electricity to your home. You're wasting energy creating hydrogen and wasting energy turning it back to electricity.

ELM327 · 12-12-2019 6:08pm

Padre_Pio wrote: »

I still don't understand the "Why?"

Why would you do this when you already have electricity to your home. You're wasting energy creating hydrogen and wasting energy turning it back to electricity.

+1
In a ratio of 2:1 wastage to production.

BloodBath · 12-12-2019 6:10pm

Yawlboy wrote: »

I spoke with a friend of mine who works for a gas company (O2 to hospitals etc.) He said that he sees home alternative (solar/wind) powered hydrogen production, with local storage of both the gas and conversion to electricity, being the future for both home and transport needs. I'm not convinced its viable but he says there are major advances coming down the track.

I think he might be on to something as his company literally makes products from thin air.

He's talking ****e.

ELM327 · 12-12-2019 6:21pm

BloodBath wrote: »

He's talking ****e.

Maybe the gas that his company produces is methane, and he's supplying it himself from all the sh1te talk

theguzman · 12-12-2019 8:37pm

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Why would you bother going to the hassle of using electricity to create hydrogen, then transport it, store it and convert it to electricity, when every house has electricity already??

It doesn't make any sort of sense. It takes more power to create hydrogen than you would ever get back through burning or a fuel cell.

The economic of these arguments don't stack up. Range anxiety is less and less a thing on you hit the 400-500km mark, which new EVs are hitting. Regarding charge times, if you can charge at home your time is zero. New Tesla fast charging can add 75 miles in 5 mins, which is more than enough to get you most places, people who buy EVs have accepted they may spend time waiting for cars to charge and plan accordingly.

You're comparing apples to oranges, current EV tech with future, mystical, 5-10 years in the future hydrogen technology.

Because you cannot store energy in batteries in the gargantuan volumes required for to power whole cities or countries.

Saudi Arabia could blanket a few hundred square kilometres of Empty Desert in Solar panels, molten salt variety mirror generators. Similarly countries like Iceland and the Philippines with vast geothermal resources could ramp up production of green energy and produce millions of barrels of Hydrogen for export where it could be turned back into Electricity for the National Grid and for to run Hydrogen vehicles.

Iceland could send a few Oil tankers sized bulk shipments of Hydrogen every day to New York and London, displacing carbon energy. Similarly the Philippines could export millions of barrels of Hydrogen to China.

You cannot just create such a floating battery and recharge it in the desert or geothermally and then bring it back because battery electric storage is not this advanced so Hydrogen is the solution, also Hydrogen is far less damaging to the Environment than Lithium which is a finite resource unlike Hydrogen which only requires Oxygen and Water and enough Green Energy for the production.

The entire global energy consumption could be met by renewables and that is before we factor in possible future Nuclear Fusion also.

Padre_Pio · 12-12-2019 9:08pm

theguzman wrote: »

Because you cannot store energy in batteries in the gargantuan volumes required for to power whole cities or countries.

Saudi Arabia could blanket a few hundred square kilometres of Empty Desert in Solar panels, molten salt variety mirror generators. Similarly countries like Iceland and the Philippines with vast geothermal resources could ramp up production of green energy and produce millions of barrels of Hydrogen for export where it could be turned back into Electricity for the National Grid and for to run Hydrogen vehicles.

Iceland could send a few Oil tankers sized bulk shipments of Hydrogen every day to New York and London, displacing carbon energy. Similarly the Philippines could export millions of barrels of Hydrogen to China.

You cannot just create such a floating battery and recharge it in the desert or geothermally and then bring it back because battery electric storage is not this advanced so Hydrogen is the solution, also Hydrogen is far less damaging to the Environment than Lithium which is a finite resource unlike Hydrogen which only requires Oxygen and Water and enough Green Energy for the production.

The entire global energy consumption could be met by renewables and that is before we factor in possible future Nuclear Fusion also.

All of that totally ignores the economics of creating, storing, transporting and using hydrogen in the first place. You would need to charge 5 times more for hydrogen created electricity at least, at a time when it's cheaper and cheaper to directly power houses from renewables.
Right now at this moment wind energy alone is powering half the country, with nary a fuel cell or battery in sight.

You cant draw direct comparisons between oil/gasoline and hydrogen because they're two completely different substances.

BloodBath · 12-12-2019 9:55pm

theguzman wrote: »

Because you cannot store energy in batteries in the gargantuan volumes required for to power whole cities or countries.

Saudi Arabia could blanket a few hundred square kilometres of Empty Desert in Solar panels, molten salt variety mirror generators. Similarly countries like Iceland and the Philippines with vast geothermal resources could ramp up production of green energy and produce millions of barrels of Hydrogen for export where it could be turned back into Electricity for the National Grid and for to run Hydrogen vehicles.

Iceland could send a few Oil tankers sized bulk shipments of Hydrogen every day to New York and London, displacing carbon energy. Similarly the Philippines could export millions of barrels of Hydrogen to China.

You cannot just create such a floating battery and recharge it in the desert or geothermally and then bring it back because battery electric storage is not this advanced so Hydrogen is the solution, also Hydrogen is far less damaging to the Environment than Lithium which is a finite resource unlike Hydrogen which only requires Oxygen and Water and enough Green Energy for the production.

The entire global energy consumption could be met by renewables and that is before we factor in possible future Nuclear Fusion also.

That's a complete over simplification of the matter. There's lot's of rare earth metals needed for wind turbines and solar as well. Producing hydrogen will require more of these as it's pretty inefficient to produce. Transport ships are one of the biggest polluters on the planet as well not to mention all the trucks to transport it after that.

There is no way in hell Hydrogen production, transport and storage is greener than electricity through the grid.

Sabre Man · 12-12-2019 10:12pm

theguzman wrote: »

I don't see LPG or CNG having any future since they emit C02 and the whole mantra is towards lower and zero emissions and wheras modern BEV cars actually increase emissions over the most efficient "dirty Diesels" and I hope Hydrogen or else super capacitor tech is way forward because lithium ion batteries certainly are not.

BEVSs are NOT dirtier than diesel:
https://innovationorigins.com/diesel-better-than-electric/

Sabre Man · 12-12-2019 10:15pm

All hydrogen filling station in Norway are still closed after an explosion at a filling station in June.

Fortunately, there are less than 200 hydrogen cars in Norway, so it doesn't affect too many people.

BloodBath · 13-12-2019 1:27am

Sabre Man wrote: »

BEVSs are NOT dirtier than diesel:
https://innovationorigins.com/diesel-better-than-electric/

Anyone that thinks that is a complete and total moron in fairness. The "scientific" studies are completely flawed and most likely funded by the oil industry.

Diesel is filthy. Anyone that lives near a busy traffic area can attest to that now that every dickhead on the road is driving big diesel vehicles.

It should never have been allowed to happen.

Wibbs · 13-12-2019 9:14am

BloodBath wrote: »

Anyone that thinks that is a complete and total moron in fairness.

+1, while the manufacture of any car is "dirty" in operation leccy cars are significantly cleaner in operation, particularly locally.

Hydrogen powered production Hyundai Nexo does 778km on 1 tank.

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