Hydrogen powered production Hyundai Nexo does 778km on 1 tank.

drunkmonkey

No hydrogen-powered production car has gone further on a single charge.
Hyundai has set a new distance record for production hydrogen-powered vehicles with the Nexo.

Driven by French aeronaut and president of the Solar Impulse Foundation, Bertrand Piccard, the car completed 778 kilometers (483.4 miles) across northern France on a single refuel, and still had 49 km (30.4 miles) of range left at the end of the journey.

Full story https://www.motor1.com/news/386621/hyundai-nexo-hydrogen-distance-record/

You can buy a nexo now in the UK we just don't have any hydrogen fuel stations yet. https://mobile.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/nexo

Will Hydrogen be a treat to electric dreams over the next few years, we'd certainly have to invest a lot less in putting chargers everywhere as range isn't such an issue.

MrMusician18

I'd be surprised now if hydrogen isn't heavily promoted since it allows the taxation and motoring economics system to essentially stay the same.

Now I'm sure we will have the EV fanbois on shortly shiting on about efficiency and the like but efficiency doesn't actually matter to the consumer (see current ICE vehicles as a case-in-point).

liamog

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Will Hydrogen be a treat to electric dreams over the next few years, we'd certainly have to invest a lot less in putting chargers everywhere as range isn't such an issue.

How'd do you figure out that one? Every single hydrogen mile requires a hydrogen filling station, 85% of EV mileage is done by charging at home.

Del2005

liamog wrote: »

How'd do you figure out that one? Every single hydrogen mile requires a hydrogen filling station, 85% of EV mileage is done by charging at home.

What happens when people who can't charge at home need to buy a new vehicle? Current EV owner can still be considered early adapter's, look at them trying to get etiquette for using the public charging network. To become mainstream they need to reduce the recharge time or people will continue to buy fossil fuel vehicles, which is what is happening as EVs are still mostly being sold on subsidies and people still don't want them.

liamog

Del2005 wrote: »

What happens when people who can't charge at home need to buy a new vehicle? Current EV owner can still be considered early adapter's, look at them trying to get etiquette for using the public charging network. To become mainstream they need to reduce the recharge time or people will continue to buy fossil fuel vehicles, which is what is happening as EVs are still mostly being sold on subsidies and people still don't want them.

They'll probably have an easier time finding a charger than a Hydrogen station.

Pretty much every EV on the market at the moment has a waiting list, in my opinion, the real thing holding back sales is the lack of choice. The top 3 cars this year (according to beepbeep) are the Corolla, Tucson, and Qashqai. There isn't really a decent EV alternative for the Tucson or Qashqai. The closest alt for a Corolla is likely an Ioniq and that has a waiting list.

Ireland has a much lower perecentage of on-street parking than most European countries, meaning home charging going to cover the majority of usage.

If we wanted to go to a full H2 fleet, we'd basically need to replace every single petrol pump with a H2 pump, I'd say that would be a far bigger waste of money.

drunkmonkey

liamog wrote: »

Pretty much every EV on the market at the moment has a waiting list, in my opinion, the real thing holding back sales is the lack of choice.

What's holding back sales is crazy prices and lack of range, incentives are propping up sales, those incentives aren't sustainable as we've already seen the one for business users axed. The days of free driving are over with the introduction of fines and charges. The cost to fuel and EV is only going up.
Germany is ploughing ahead with hydrogen stations nearly opening one a week, EV bus services are being shut down no talk of replacing them with more lithium batteries, it'll be hydrogen if anything.
https://www.electrive.com/2019/12/04/technical-problems-halt-long-distance-flixbus-e-bus-services-in-germany/

liamog

drunkmonkey wrote: »

What's holding back sales is crazy prices and lack of range, incentives are propping up sales, those incentives aren't sustainable as we've already seen the one for business users axed. The days of free driving are over with the introduction of fines and charges. The cost to fuel and EV is only going up.
Germany is ploughing ahead with hydrogen stations nearly opening one a week, EV bus services are being shut down no talk of replacing them with more lithium batteries, it'll be hydrogen if anything.
https://www.electrive.com/2019/12/04/technical-problems-halt-long-distance-flixbus-e-bus-services-in-germany/

Sales aren't held back, every available EV has a waiting list.
Last year sales doubled, this year it's looking like tripled.
There is no point selling an affordable model when you can instead sell a high value and high margin car.

I think H2 has a place in transport but it's not likely to be in personal transportation. Trucks, Buses, Aircraft and Shipping are likely to be where H2 is successful.

drunkmonkey

liamog wrote: »

Sales aren't held back, every available EV has a waiting list.
Last year sales doubled, this year it's looking like tripled.
There is no point selling an affordable model when you can instead sell a high value and high margin car.

It's easy double a cent into 2 cent, it gets a hell of a lot harder to do that every day for 30 days.
Supply will meet demand early this year, you should be able to get a Tesla off the shelf in February. We should see how sustainable the model of ever increasing prices is then. One look at the second hand market and it appears there's little to no demand at current prices, dealers seem to be sitting on the best the EV world has to offer for way too long.
The id3 from VW seems to have a cancellation every day, a real world milage of 120miles in winter for 50k+ is not going to take Ireland or the world by storm.

galwaytt

liamog wrote: »

How'd do you figure out that one? Every single hydrogen mile requires a hydrogen filling station, 85% of EV mileage is done by charging at home.

Charging at home is never going to work for a huge amount of people: on-street parking, apartments etc etc.

Hydrogen has more potential for wider and easier use imho.

[edit] https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/esb-ecars-advises-electric-vehicle-owners-to-disregard-its-own-app-1.4108892 [/edit]

LOLZ

They can't even tell you where and if you can charge your car now. At least a petrol/H2 station would be.

MetzgerMeister

Mazda have been working on a Hydrogen RX8/rotary engine for over a decade now and still no sign of it.

Yawlboy

Nearly £70k after government grants for a midsize SUV . This is the big problem never mind refueling stations.

Wibbs

liamog wrote: »

I think H2 has a place in transport but it's not likely to be in personal transportation. Trucks, Buses, Aircraft and Shipping are likely to be where H2 is successful.

Sure, but if it is a success in those sectors it'll mean more H2 around in general and that could well kickstart it as a tech for private vehicles. Ireland being well within the ranges of most new models and with its much more spread out private housing with private parking is near ideal for pure EV's, but in more centralised and apartment living Europe not nearly so much. H2 could well prove more suitable.

There's a hint of the betamax/VHS about this and it'll be interesting to see how it plays out beyond the early adopters.

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

Mazda have been working on a Hydrogen RX8/rotary engine for over a decade now and still no sign of it.

In fairness MM, Mazda's petrol rotary has had issues from the start. Not slagging the rotary Mazdas, bloody great cars, but with more issues than the standard piston engines.

MetzgerMeister

Wibbs wrote: »

In fairness MM, Mazda's petrol rotary has had issues from the start. Not slagging the rotary Mazdas, bloody great cars, but with more issues than the standard piston engines.

I 100% agree but those issues would definitely have been ironed out if they were developing a hydrogen version. No point in building on a flawed platform.

seamus

Del2005 wrote: »

What happens when people who can't charge at home need to buy a new vehicle? Current EV owner can still be considered early adapter's, look at them trying to get etiquette for using the public charging network. To become mainstream they need to reduce the recharge time or people will continue to buy fossil fuel vehicles, which is what is happening as EVs are still mostly being sold on subsidies and people still don't want them.

Ultimately the capital costs of charging stations are considerably lower than filling stations.
Retrofitting hydrogen into an existing petrol station is a huge cost, and the ability to do it may be limited due to location and proximity to residential buildings.

Retrofitting charging points by comparison is incredibly cheap and there are virtually no restrictions on location.

EVs have the jump on hydrogen here in reality. If retrofitting petrol infrastructure to hydrogen was easy and cheap, this would be the way to go. Or if both were just just getting out of the starting blocks, it could be a runner.

But energy density in batteries is constantly going up, battery costs have dropped 50% in 3 years, and the reality is that trickle or overnight charging is sufficient for the transport needs of 99.9% of vehicle owners. "Distance on a single charge" is a largely useless metric once you go about a few hundred KM, because the amount of journeys which require one to use a full tank/charge are negligible. I can't see hydrogen catching on for ordinary day-to-day drivers tbh. Maybe for trucks, maybe in some markets (like the US) where some drivers might do 3,000 miles a week for work.

But not for the everyday. Charging points will become so ubiquitous that the idea of having to stop mid-journey to refuel your car will seem really odd.

MetzgerMeister

seamus wrote: »

Retrofitting charging points by comparison is incredibly cheap and there are virtually no restrictions on location.

Shouldn't there then in theory be a lot more of them if that's the case?

colm_mcm

This is certainly the way forward, but they are where BEVs were 15 years ago.

Henry Ford III

colm_mcm wrote: »

This is certainly the way forward, but they are where BEVs were 15 years ago.

I'd be inclined to agree. It'll be interesting to see where this technology goes.

liamog

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

Shouldn't there then in theory be a lot more of them if that's the case?

Easy to install, but not much requirement for them. Most people are charging at home. In general, EV makers are only selling high margin models. People who can afford the higher vehicle cost generally have access to private car parking. The UK market is more mature, they've started installing 50kW chargers at supermarkets. Recharge your car whilst doing your weekly shop.

ELM327

This is laughable.
Fool cells.

ELM327

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Good counter point, when can we expect your follow up paper on the topic?

I'll start by quoting the mpge as being less efficient than BEVs, about on par with an average diesel.
Then the fact it takes 3kWh of energy to produce 1kWh of hydrogen energy stored.


Additionally the fact that in order for this to take off we'd have to build a whole new infrastructure. And there's no charging at home either.


The only advantage it offers is range. And that's dying. The model S loaner I have at the moment has 613km range.

seamus

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

Shouldn't there then in theory be a lot more of them if that's the case?

It's a fair point, but as liam says a lot of people have charging points at home (or a cable out the window), so demand for them will never be as high as a petrol pump.

You also have to consider the fact that there's no margin in it for the petrol station. A BEV owner is not going to sit in a petrol station - even for twenty minutes - to wait for the vehicle to charge. They will appear in places where people will be spending some time; supermarkets, shopping centres, office blocks, parks, etc. Whereas with an ICE, filling your tank is an event within your day, with a BEV charging the vehicle is something that happens while you go about your day.

But again, the demand will still be pretty limited. We're not going to see 1,000 car parking spaces with a charger beside them. There'll be a section of any given car park with chargers in it, probably with a surcharge for using it. Because most vehicles will be charged at home.

The cost of fitting a home charger is already pretty small, and I can see it soon becoming mandatory for all new builds to have at least one charge point per unit (or "charge point ready" or something), with even bigger subsidies for retrofitting them when you buy an EV. If Nissan offered a rebate for fitting the home charger when you buy a Leaf, they could drive a much strong uptake.

ELM327

seamus wrote: »

It's a fair point, but as liam says a lot of people have charging points at home (or a cable out the window), so demand for them will never be as high as a petrol pump.

You also have to consider the fact that there's no margin in it for the petrol station. A BEV owner is not going to sit in a petrol station - even for twenty minutes - to wait for the vehicle to charge. They will appear in places where people will be spending some time; supermarkets, shopping centres, office blocks, parks, etc. Whereas with an ICE, filling your tank is an event within your day, with a BEV charging the vehicle is something that happens while you go about your day.

But again, the demand will still be pretty limited. We're not going to see 1,000 car parking spaces with a charger beside them. There'll be a section of any given car park with chargers in it, probably with a surcharge for using it. Because most vehicles will be charged at home.

The cost of fitting a home charger is already pretty small, and I can see it soon becoming mandatory for all new builds to have at least one charge point per unit (or "charge point ready" or something), with even bigger subsidies for retrofitting them when you buy an EV. If Nissan offered a rebate for fitting the home charger when you buy a Leaf, they could drive a much strong uptake.

You already get a rebate from SEAI of 600 quid.
Agree with the rest of your post.

listermint

galwaytt wrote: »

Charging at home is never going to work for a huge amount of people: on-street parking, apartments etc etc.

Hydrogen has more potential for wider and easier use imho.

[edit] https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/esb-ecars-advises-electric-vehicle-owners-to-disregard-its-own-app-1.4108892 [/edit]

LOLZ

They can't even tell you where and if you can charge your car now. At least a petrol/H2 station would be.

just have to call out this nonsense argument. because ive seen it pulled out a few times.

The VAST majority of people in ireland DONT live in apartments AND do have space available for car out front and charging.

Its the minority that you are saying is 'huge' figures. Its a pain in the arse that this crap keeps getting rolled out as a negative reason for EVs. no basis in fact.

ELM327

listermint wrote: »

just have to call out this nonsense argument. because ive seen it pulled out a few times.

The VAST majority of people in ireland DONT live in apartments AND do have space available for car out front and charging.

Its the minority that you are saying is 'huge' figures. Its a pain in the arse that this crap keeps getting rolled out as a negative reason for EVs. no basis in fact.

+1
As an apartment owner it really does get annoying to be told repeatedly that apartment owners can't have charging stations. especially when I have one outside!

mikeecho

CNG will be available long before Hydrogen.

There are plenty of CNG vehicles in asia. (i'm not talking about LPG)

Gas Networks Ireland have already started the CNG rollout, and i believe that Circle K will be fitting out stations with CNG pumps.

https://www.gasnetworks.ie/business/natural-gas-in-transport/cng-refuelling-stations/

MrMusician18

ELM327 wrote: »

I'll start by quoting the mpge as being less efficient than BEVs, about on par with an average diesel.
Then the fact it takes 3kWh of energy to produce 1kWh of hydrogen energy stored.


Additionally the fact that in order for this to take off we'd have to build a whole new infrastructure. And there's no charging at home either.


The only advantage it offers is range. And that's dying. The model S loaner I have at the moment has 613km range.

BINGO!

drunkmonkey

ELM327 wrote: »

The model S loaner I have at the moment has 613km range.

It does if you live in California, Tell the truth what would the range be if you had to drive from Dublin to Tralee and back yesterday. If you had half of that I'd be surprised.

Eric Cartman

MrMusician18 wrote: »

BINGO!

no rare earth metal involvement really and its very possible to build a load of hydrogen processing plants powered by purely renewable energy that can produce when the power is available and not when its not. Hydrogen production is perfect for solar or wind installs instead of building thousands of miles of cable and huge battery stores you can just have a truck collect the hydrogen from remote sites and drop it off to fuel vehicles.

The entire hydrogen economy can be done without really involving china, without using fossil fuels to provide power in the background and provide the user the same convenient range and fill experience theyre used to .

Also from generation to charge you could be losing anywhere from 20-51% on electricity.
https://blog.se.com/energy-management-energy-efficiency/2013/03/25/how-big-are-power-line-losses/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360544217303730

vectra

listermint wrote: »

just have to call out this nonsense argument. because ive seen it pulled out a few times.

The VAST majority of people in ireland DONT live in apartments AND do have space available for car out front and charging.

Its the minority that you are saying is 'huge' figures. Its a pain in the arse that this crap keeps getting rolled out as a negative reason for EVs. no basis in fact.

I am one that can't have a charger as I live on a street of 20+ houses, and would all be in the same situation.
There are hundreds oh houses in this town that are in this situation.

liamog

Eric Cartman wrote: »

no rare earth metal involvement really and

Just to clarify as I see this a lot by EV sceptics, the main use of rare earth minerals in an EV motor, well the permanent magnet type any. H2 powered cars use exactly the same motor types as BEVs. Current lithium-ion batteries generally don't use rare earth minerals.

liamog

vectra wrote: »

I am one that can't have a charger as I live on a street of 20+ houses, and would all be in the same situation.
There are hundreds oh houses in this town that are in this situation.

Not sure as to your exact circumstances, but it's a problem that is already solved. Takes a little more effort, here's what we installed at our house. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=104941705

The Netherlands and some UK councils will tender for public slow chargers in an area based on resident demands. Not only is it a non-issue, but we can also look to other EU countries for their experience.