Upcoming ASTI ballot on SLARS

Benicetomonty · 07-01-2020 9:41pm

Millem wrote: »

What is happening in a mixed union department?

No issue if meetings are scheduled inside school hours. Otherwise, since the TUI have issued no directive and are happy to ignore what's written in the agreement they signed up to, I would imagine their members need to make themselves available for SLARs whenever management decrees.

Having said that, I wouldnt imagine principals will see much point in insisting that meetings are carried out if half of the department are unable to attend. Id suspect that in dual union and ASTI schools, SLARs are pretty much finished, for the time being at least.

km79 · 07-01-2020 10:00pm

Benicetomonty wrote: »

No issue if meetings are scheduled inside school hours. Otherwise, since the TUI have issued no directive and are happy to ignore what's written in the agreement they signed up to, I would imagine their members need to make themselves available for SLARs whenever management decrees.

Having said that, I wouldnt imagine principals will see much point in insisting that meetings are carried out if half of the department are unable to attend. Id suspect that in dual union and ASTI schools, SLARs are pretty much finished, for the time being at least.

So in short TUI members won’t have to do SLARS
But also won’t have to face whatever sanctions the dept come back with

Feels familiar .......

Millem · 07-01-2020 10:25pm

Benicetomonty wrote: »

No issue if meetings are scheduled inside school hours. Otherwise, since the TUI have issued no directive and are happy to ignore what's written in the agreement they signed up to, I would imagine their members need to make themselves available for SLARs whenever management decrees.

Having said that, I wouldnt imagine principals will see much point in insisting that meetings are carried out if half of the department are unable to attend. Id suspect that in dual union and ASTI schools, SLARs are pretty much finished, for the time being at least.

Ok. What happens if tui members do the slar outside school time and Asti members attend?

km79 · 07-01-2020 10:36pm

Millem wrote: »

Ok. What happens if tui members do the slar outside school time and Asti members attend?

Then asti members have broken directive and should be reported

Benicetomonty · 07-01-2020 11:34pm

km79 wrote: »

So in short TUI members won’t have to do SLARS
But also won’t have to face whatever sanctions the dept come back with

Feels familiar .......

Majority TUI schools will. And I cant see their principals making any effort to bring SLARs back inside school hours, so theyl continue as they were. Which wont be appreciated if ASTI members arent doing them at all.

As regards sanctions, its hard to see what can actually happen. Nothing is being repudiated this time. All the ASTI is doing is following the agreement to the letter. Plus after the government caved with the nurses and given that we're so close to an election, any threats made are likely to ring hollow.

Somebody said that our professional time would be threatened. Hard to see how principals would be willing to see that through, especially given there are now probably very few exclusively ASTI schools anymore after the poaching episode, which means management would have to pick up serious flak from staff who end up with the extra 40mins. Ironic that the disharmony between the unions that made the govt's tactics so effective during the last dispute is precisely the reason this specific approach wont work this time around; if the two unions were towing the same line, reinstating the extra weekly period might actually be a feasible threat. It isnt in the current context.

acequion · 07-01-2020 11:58pm

Benicetomonty wrote: »

No issue if meetings are scheduled inside school hours. Otherwise, since the TUI have issued no directive and are happy to ignore what's written in the agreement they signed up to, I would imagine their members need to make themselves available for SLARs whenever management decrees.

Having said that, I wouldnt imagine principals will see much point in insisting that meetings are carried out if half of the department are unable to attend. Id suspect that in dual union and ASTI schools, SLARs are pretty much finished, for the time being at least.

I'd say it would depend on the management of the school. I can't see too many school managers allowing SLARS to be abandoned. Imagine if there was a WSE! All that documentation has to be shown to the inspectors.

But then I guess nothing is surprising any more and what you say is possible. Being in one of the few remaining almost exclusively ASTI schools, I've no idea what life is like in dual unions schools, thankfully.

Millem · 08-01-2020 5:32am

If the Slar was scheduled during the school day but you had no classes because you are part time and have a half day....that is ok?

themusicman · 08-01-2020 9:32am

Millem wrote: »

If the Slar was scheduled during the school day but you had no classes because you are part time and have a half day....that is ok?

Yes. We got this checked out in our school(which by the way hasnt had any issues with slars after hours).If its during school time and you are off then thats just the unlucky break.

As an aside one finished in 20 minutes in our place....and there was no rush in getting it done in that time

Treppen · 08-01-2020 8:05pm

Millem wrote: »

If the Slar was scheduled during the school day but you had no classes because you are part time and have a half day....that is ok?

In that case you could use your 'bundled time's from 22-21:20 allowance.

Treppen · 08-01-2020 8:56pm

In a way its a little bit of a dig at the TUI overlords who are happy to let their members suffer by the SLAR agreement being broken and ridden roughshod over.

In a dual school if you have ASTI representation then I think it's a matter of legality. Your employer can't ask you to work outside school hours and if they sanction you for refusing then it's lawyer-up time. I'd want assurances from the ASTI that they would have your back first.

If this stops SLARS being organised for ASTI members outside of school. Then it should follow that in dual schools it should stop SLARS being imposed on TUI and Non-Union members.

Snapgal · 10-01-2020 1:42am

I was permanent for 12 years but left job to come closer home and was with ASTI since day one I became a teacher. Have been in short term contracts last few years and this year on a term not own ours contract. Put myself forward as SLAR coordinator as don’t have third years and wanted to put on CV and see what all CBAs all about, SLAR Meetings in this school outside school hours. School would have roughly 20% ASTI members.ASTI Stewart did approach me about directive but don’t know what to do now - I ideally would love not to have SLAR meeting but then am afraid if any job interviews come up in summer would it look bad that I have not tried to get involved in new Junior Cycle. Nearly 20 years of experience of teaching and examining doesn’t seem to impress interviewers anyway.

doc_17 · 10-01-2020 10:34am

km79 wrote: »

So in short TUI members won’t have to do SLARS
But also won’t have to face whatever sanctions the dept come back with

Feels familiar .......

And what happens if the government retaliate, which they have said they will, by defining the school day? Even though TUI members haven't taken the action they will receive the same medicine as ASTI.

All these snarky comments at the TUI aren't going to anyone any good.

Benicetomonty · 10-01-2020 1:31pm

doc_17 wrote: »

And what happens if the government retaliate, which they have said they will, by defining the school day?

Where has this been said?

doc_17 · 10-01-2020 3:17pm

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Where has this been said?

Heard it from a high enough Union official at our December meeting, one of the ones that does the rounds to local branches. I know and trust the source.

Benicetomonty · 10-01-2020 4:36pm

doc_17 wrote: »

Heard it from a high enough Union official at our December meeting, one of the ones that does the rounds to local branches. I know and trust the source.

There's obviously a reason they havent made that threat public. The govt had no problem issuing threats and ultimatums through the indo and the Times in the run up to the last dispute before any directives were ever put in place. Why not this time?
Standardising the day would be a declaration of war with teaching unions, all 3 of them. INTO and TUI would feel exceptionally hard done by since theyve resisted nothing the dept have proposed in the last decade. Dont get me wrong, the way things are going, I could still see this becoming a reality at some point but it wont be anytime soon. And the stakes would have to be much higher than the issue of the SLAR meetings for a goverment to bring that level of strife upon themselves. A red herring if ever there was one.

History Queen · 10-01-2020 4:44pm

doc_17 wrote: »

Heard it from a high enough Union official at our December meeting, one of the ones that does the rounds to local branches. I know and trust the source.

Heard the same, I'd imagine from the same official

km79 · 10-01-2020 4:45pm

What exactly would a standardized school day mean ?
I assume for a start it would mean tearing up every teachers existing contract .........

Millem · 10-01-2020 4:53pm

History Queen wrote: »

Heard the same, I'd imagine from the same official

I heard the same too.

acequion · 10-01-2020 7:19pm

doc_17 wrote: »

Heard it from a high enough Union official at our December meeting, one of the ones that does the rounds to local branches. I know and trust the source.

Typical scaremongering tactics by TUI to make sure the members toe the line. And they do, every time.

"High enough union official," "does the rounds to local branches."

Says it all.:rolleyes:

joebloggs32 · 10-01-2020 8:18pm

I'm in the TUI and I clearly remember when we voted to accept the JCT agreement 4 years ago that we were told by our union officials that this would mean having slars outside of school time. The bundled time we would receive would be in part for doing SLARs.
As mentioned above, SLARs may be completed much quicker than 2 hours.
When we voted in 2016 our union officials also listed out the severe sanctions on the table if we had rejected the proposed deal. Remember, Fempi is a very big stick. Right or wrong the TUI accepted the deal. I do however remember many of my Asti colleagues confidently saying there was no way the government would come down that hard on them. We all know what did happen, and now as also mentioned the threat of the government designating the school day has reared its head. I sincerely hope it's just scaremongering, but if it comes to pass because of this issue there will not be much love from TUI members for the Asti for going on this solo run.

km79 · 10-01-2020 8:21pm

km79 wrote: »

What exactly would a standardized school day mean ?
I assume for a start it would mean tearing up every teachers existing contract .........

^

joebloggs32 · 10-01-2020 8:30pm

km79 wrote: »

^

It would mean every teacher being present in school from the start of the school day until the end, regardless of having free periods. It is what they have in the UK.

km79 · 10-01-2020 8:44pm

joebloggs32 wrote: »

It would mean every teacher being present in school from the start of the school day until the end, regardless of having free periods. It is what they have in the UK.

Right
So a complete change in contract ?

If this was to be forced on us then I assume we would pull out of every after school meeting ?
A unilateral change in working conditions wolly surely repudiate all agreements ........

I am generally in school all day anyway and getting my evenings back might not be such a bad thing .............

Assuming also it is not jail and lunch time means freedom like in every other job ............

doc_17 · 10-01-2020 8:46pm

acequion wrote: »

Typical scaremongering tactics by TUI to make sure the members toe the line. And they do, every time.

"High enough union official," "does the rounds to local branches."

Says it all.:rolleyes:

We aren’t balloting on anything so nobody was trying to get anyone to “toe the line”. Stupid comment.

It came up as it’s an action by another group that might affect our terms and conditions.

ASTI have made some poor decisions in the last few years that really worked out badly for them and their members, and now their poorly thought out strategies could have a real impact on the rest of us.

ASTI did well taking action against the TUI to get money back for central coffers from lost members. Maybe they should work as hard to get the money back for their members who had FEMPI applied to them during their strike, unlike the nurses.

km79 · 10-01-2020 8:52pm

doc_17 wrote: »

ASTI did well taking action against the TUI to get money back for central coffers from lost members. Maybe they should work as hard to get the money back for their members who had FEMPI applied to them during their strike, unlike the nurses.

Indeed
I actually raised this with a union rep and they assured me the TUI money is to be spread amongst the membership............
I Won’t hold my breath

And have also been assured the FEMPI fight is ongoing in European court
Again won’t hold my breath

Benicetomonty · 10-01-2020 8:56pm

joebloggs32 wrote: »

I'm in the TUI and I clearly remember when we voted to accept the JCT agreement 4 years ago that we were told by our union officials that this would mean having slars outside of school time. The bundled time we would receive would be in part for doing SLARs.
As mentioned above, SLARs may be completed much quicker than 2 hours.
When we voted in 2016 our union officials also listed out the severe sanctions on the table if we had rejected the proposed deal. Remember, Fempi is a very big stick. Right or wrong the TUI accepted the deal. I do however remember many of my Asti colleagues confidently saying there was no way the government would come down that hard on them. We all know what did happen, and now as also mentioned the threat of the government designating the school day has reared its head. I sincerely hope it's just scaremongering, but if it comes to pass because of this issue there will not be much love from TUI members for the Asti for going on this solo run.

Safe to say whatever happens, the TUI needn't expect an iota of support or sympathy from the ASTI unless it's for a common goal. Their poaching of ASTI members during the last dispute was probably the most blatant affront to the spirit of trade unionism we've witnessed in I dont know how long.

joebloggs32 · 10-01-2020 11:07pm

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Safe to say whatever happens, the TUI needn't expect an iota of support or sympathy from the ASTI unless it's for a common goal. Their poaching of ASTI members during the last dispute was probably the most blatant affront to the spirit of trade unionism we've witnessed in I dont know how long.

What is the current position of the Asti on pay equality?
TUI have given notice for industrial action in February. INTO have signalled that they will take action if it's not resolved by summer.
ASTI are sticking it to the man by not doing SLARs

Icsics · 10-01-2020 11:13pm

joebloggs32 wrote: »

What is the current position of the Asti on pay equality?
TUI have given notice for industrial action in February. INTO have signalled that they will take action if it's not resolved by summer.
ASTI are sticking it to the man by not doing SLARs

I think we all know at this stage that there’s no way TUI / INTO are going to go on strike.

Treppen · 10-01-2020 11:27pm

doc_17 wrote: »

We aren’t balloting on anything so nobody was trying to get anyone to “toe the line”. Stupid comment.

It came up as it’s an action by another group that might affect our terms and conditions.

ASTI have made some poor decisions in the last few years that really worked out badly for them and their members, and now their poorly thought out strategies could have a real impact on the rest of us.

ASTI did well taking action against the TUI to get money back for central coffers from lost members. Maybe they should work as hard to get the money back for their members who had FEMPI applied to them during their strike, unlike the nurses.

That's all neither here nor there, the agreement was the agreement. Both TUI and ASTI and Dept. all have and agreed upon the same words.

9.7. The 40 minute professional time period provided within timetable is available to teachers on the basis that they will use this time flexibly including bundling time periods and carrying forward time to facilitate professional collaboration. Teachers may also use the time periods for individual planning, feedback or reporting activities relating to Junior Cycle. In particular, time periods will need to be bundled to facilitate SLAR meetings. Since professional collaboration meetings can only be held when the relevant subject teachers can be present, a limited number of meetings may need to draw on teachers’ bundled time to run beyond normal school tuition hours for some of the duration of the meeting.

The clue is 'normal tuition hours'. When a school finishes on a half day the second half is NOT tuition hours. The students aren't there in class so it's not tution time.

The ASTI take the view that the 'school day' happens when students are present. Not sure about TUI.... But I am certain the ASTI negotiators were astute enough not to allow the term "school day" to be included.

So arguing over the "school day" is moot.

TUI need to read what they signed.

Treppen · 10-01-2020 11:35pm

Snapgal wrote: »

I was permanent for 12 years but left job to come closer home and was with ASTI since day one I became a teacher. Have been in short term contracts last few years and this year on a term not own ours contract. Put myself forward as SLAR coordinator as don’t have third years and wanted to put on CV and see what all CBAs all about, SLAR Meetings in this school outside school hours. School would have roughly 20% ASTI members.ASTI Stewart did approach me about directive but don’t know what to do now - I ideally would love not to have SLAR meeting but then am afraid if any job interviews come up in summer would it look bad that I have not tried to get involved in new Junior Cycle. Nearly 20 years of experience of teaching and examining doesn’t seem to impress interviewers anyway.

If you are SLAR coordinator are you getting your 2 hours off?

5.4. One teacher of each subject in the school will be allocated two additional hours by school management to facilitate the preparation for and coordination of each Subject Learning and Assessment Review meeting for that subject. To foster capacity building in each subject department this activity will normally be rotated among the relevant teachers.

Upcoming ASTI ballot on SLARS

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