Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

N17 & M18 - Galway to Tuam and rest of Atlantic corridor back on agenda

  • 19-05-2008 6:28pm
    #1
    Chris_533976
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭


    Another newspaper article, but I'm inclined to agree with this one :D
    After years of campaigning, construction of the long-awaited Claregalway bypass will begin in the next 18 months.
    The N17 bypass from Tuam to Galway is seen as a definite solution to relieve the village of the heavy traffic congestion that builds up on a daily basis.
    This will come as a relief to local Claregalway residents, as it was suggested last month that funding for a bypass would not be available for a number of years.

    Galway West TD and Chairman of the Oireachtas Transport Committee Frank Fahey said, “The bypass of Claregalway has now been given the go-ahead, and will start once the planning process has been completed.
    “The Government have approved for the work to be done by a Public Private Partnership, so the money for the whole Atlantic corridor is now available.”
    He added, “Rather than the road being delayed, the Claregalway bottleneck situation will now be improved as a result of this money being provided by a private sector.”

    An oral hearing was held in the last two weeks to discuss the situation and it was decided that the money that had been provided by the Government in the original estimates would now be used on public transport initiatives.
    It has been estimated that the new N17 will remove 80 per cent of the traffic from Claregalway, most of which is generated from Tuam to Galway city.
    There have also been many objections to the scheme, mainly from farmers and landowners, whose land will be affected by the construction of the N17 motorway.

    Deputy Fahey said that there is now a definite timescale for the solution to the Claregalway problem.

    Now it is going to be M17, but they do use the road motorway too.

    I dont believe that 80% of the Claregalway traffic will be removed, due to the motorway alignment and the fact that you'd have to go to Athenry. Also the fact that although there is no N17 junction on the proposed Galway City Outer Bypass, you can come off a junction early and ratrun through a silly country lane. They will have to build a local Claregalway bypass once the N designation is removed from the road and it gets given to (loud and demanding) local authorities.


    Good news tho that the M17 and N18 seem to be back on the agenda, despite recent news. Tolls though? I dont know. Recent word seems to be 'no tolls but the gov will slowly pay back the Private company'.
    Tagged:


«13

Comments

  • #2
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Chris_533976 wrote: »
    Another newspaper article, but I'm inclined to agree with this one :D



    Now it is going to be M17, but they do use the road motorway too.

    I dont believe that 80% of the Claregalway traffic will be removed, due to the motorway alignment and the fact that you'd have to go to Athenry. Also the fact that although there is no N17 junction on the proposed Galway City Outer Bypass, you can come off a junction early and ratrun through a silly country lane. They will have to build a local Claregalway bypass once the N designation is removed from the road and it gets given to (loud and demanding) local authorities.


    Good news tho that the M17 and N18 seem to be back on the agenda, despite recent news. Tolls though? I dont know. Recent word seems to be 'no tolls but the gov will slowly pay back the Private company'.


    The problem with Claregalway is not only is it a bottleneck on a busy national route.
    But its the intersection of two important national routes. Both of these roads have to stop at this busy juction to give way for the oncoming traffic. At peak times so much traffic is trying to merge that it results in queues on all approaches. The New Motorway mght not remove 80% of traffic but it will certainly remove the conflicting traffic and tailbacks that regulary occur.

    There will still be a lot of Galway and North Galway/Roscommon traffic using the old road even after the new Motorway. But the vast majority of heavy traffic will be eliminated from the village itself.


  • #3
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Chris_533976 wrote: »
    Another newspaper article, but I'm inclined to agree with this one :D


    Tolls though? I dont know. Recent word seems to be 'no tolls but the gov will slowly pay back the Private company'.


    No there won't be tolls (in my mind), Two tolls within a few miles of each other in the one region. Getting stung at Derrydonnell on the new N6 and again on the M17 a few miles northwest of the ****ty roundabout flyover that they are proprosing that is not entirely free flow Toll motorways tend to be built to a higher standard with proper flyovers in place, Like In other countries. M3 toll road, will be the most modern and efficient motorway when it's completed, capable of handling 55,000 vehicles a day. Whereas the rest of the interubans can only handle 35,000 by design standards. Quoted from the NRA site.

    even though on both approaches of M17 and N6 could hypothetically be tolled.... then you'd have to toll the M18 too. It won't work, its actually quite funny to even think it would happen like this...

    Tolls? Eh no.. As in no way.

    No... it should not be tolled. If this is tolled then Galway commuters will refuse too pay tolls on its two only outbound highways. Period.


  • #4
    Cool Mo D
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Cool Mo D


    It looks to me like the Government's PPP funding plans are basically another form of loan, but I'm not sure if they have to account for the money in the same way so it affects their EU budgetary commitments. The way the PPP's work is that the builder of the road will get a guaranteed income over 30 years after the road is built - basically like paying back a loan, but the principal doesn't go on the books, I think. (I could be wrong - that's mostly speculation on my part)
    On the tolled projects, like the M50 upgrade, the M3, and the N6, the money will be paid back by toll revenue, however, if toll revenue falls below a certain agreed amount, the Government is on the hook for the rest. Funding by PPP basically serves the same purpose as a loan, instead of spending, say €600m over 2 years, a road might cost €1bn over 30 years.
    I don't think tolls are planned on the N17, N18 though.

    Interestingly, the head of the NRA was interviewed in the business section of the Sunday Times last week, saying that roads planned to be built from central Government funding, like the N18 and N20, will now be built as PPP, as the RPA has decided that it wants to go for Government rather than PPP funding for it's projects. This could knock the headline cost of the metro down by about half, as I understand the €5bn cost floating about is the PPP cost spread over 30 years, and the actual construction cost will probably be well under €3bn. Since the cost of road projects rarely hit the headlines in the same way, or are subject to the same financial scrutiny as the metro, or luas (with the exception of the Port Tunnel),
    I wonder if this is an attempt to surprise all the Metro doubters with a slick new lower than anticipated cost? Which is probably a fair enough method of doing it really, as the cost estimations flung around in the papers are always hard to follow - are they construction costs only, do they include land acquisition, financing, etc, so you can hardly blame the RPA for trying to get the visible cost down, even if it will just get dumped on the roads programme.


  • #5
    serfboard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Chris_533976 wrote: »
    Good news tho that the M17 and N18 seem to be back on the agenda, despite recent news. Tolls though? I dont know. Recent word seems to be 'no tolls but the gov will slowly pay back the Private company'.
    As other posters have said, I don't think it will be tolls on this road.

    In the same way that Ryanair keep announcing the same procurement of planes over and over again, this particular gent (Frank Fahey) has announced many times that work is due to start "very soon" on the N/M17, just to keep himself in the news and to be seen to be doing something. I'll believe it when I see it.

    As regards the other point about whether the new road will take traffic away from Claregalway, this link shows that the busiest times are 8/9/10 AM southbound and 5/6/7 PM northbound, which fits the pattern of commuter traffic into/from Galway. By all means build this road, but please give us a decent public transport system into Galway and we might use it!


  • #6
    ga2re2t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 134 ✭✭ga2re2t


    mysterious wrote: »
    even though on both approaches of M17 and N6 could hypothetically be tolled.... then you'd have to toll the M18 too. It won't work, its actually quite funny to even think it would happen like this...

    How about the toll-system I see here in France? - a ticket in/ticket out system and selectrive tolling of on and off ramps. You can then tailor the toll system to whatever you want. With an eToll tag you can further tailor the system. For example, commuters could have free or heavily discounted access to the motorways during commuting hours (send an ESB bill with home address and some form of work document to the tag supplier to avail of the offer). The notion of creating a dynamically tailored toll system hasn't being really proposed in Ireland yet, which I feel is a pity. The Dublin Port tunnel toll system and the proposed barrier free M50 toll system could be considered as tailored systems, though I'm no fan of the latter system.


  • Advertisement
  • #7
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,147 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Thank God this road is back on track. I hope that Sponge Bob chap comes in here and reads this!

    The N18 and N20 really are desperate roads, on skyscrapercity.com I had to listen to a Pole laughing at pics of the N20 someone posted, he said you wouldn't see it in Poland.
    serfboard wrote: »
    By all means build this road, but please give us a decent public transport system into Galway and we might use it!
    Unfortanately since trains have to go via Athenry and reverse back out again, the Tuam-Galway journey time won't be the mae west. Probably only worthwhile for the carless.


  • #8
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Thank God this road is back on track. I hope that Sponge Bob chap comes in here and reads this!

    This thread is based on a story that Frank Fahey fed to a junior hack in the Galway sAdvertiser . I did the math here

    The math tells us that the Atlantic Corridor is more like the Atlantic Pipe Dream . The first post is complete ****e but I would have responded sooner had the OP attributed his data rather than copied and pasted from a Galway freesheet . Nobody else callled him on it, maybe people want to believe:eek: in Frank Fahey :eek: or something. Whatever :cool:

    There was no money last week and there is no money this week and there will be no money next year either ....although maybe the Gort bypass may get the go ahead with an election coming up meaning dribs in 2009 and 2010 and 2011 .

    As for the N20 , hah hahahahhahha ha ha ha ha ha ha ahahhahhaaaahhh!!!!! Its not beyond route selection yet for Gods sake !!!!

    Route Selection was all settled on the N18 in 2001 and we are still nowhere 7 years later.

    Follow the money people, there is none. Its all gone into putative holes in Dublin .


  • #9
    serfboard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭serfboard


    serfboard wrote: »
    By all means build this road, but please give us a decent public transport system into Galway and we might use it!
    spacetweek wrote: »
    Unfortanately since trains have to go via Athenry and reverse back out again, the Tuam-Galway journey time won't be the mae west. Probably only worthwhile for the carless.

    When I said public transport, I meant both trains and buses, and in particular buses. As someone who's a big fan of train travel, I would much rather that the money be spent on bus travel - given the fact that the biggest concentration of employment in Galway is Parkmore/Ballybrit - an area that the rail line goes nowhere near.

    If you were to keep one lane of every dual carriageway both in and to the city for bus transport only (or even for commuting hours only and from a distance of 15km out), and have a very frequent service, then you'd have a great incentive for public transport vs. disincentive for private transport situation applying.

    In relation to the topic, echoing a previous poster and as I said already, just because Frank Fahey says it's going to happen, doesn't mean it's going to happen. Boy who cried wolf, and all that.


  • #10
    rekrow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 78 ✭✭rekrow


    What is the point in announcing that this is going to take place in 18 months. Surely this announcement is relevent in 17 1/2 months time! A lot can change between this and then. It is amazing that he can make statements like 80% of traffic originates in June, when the experts appointed in the NRA have traffic counter data that contradicts it. As a resident of claregalway I won't be jumping up and down at this announcement. To little to late. The upside of the house price collapse is there will be little or no further urban sprawl in the next couple of years to add to this mess!!


  • #11
    Irish and Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    rekrow wrote: »
    The upside of the house price collapse is there will be little or no further urban sprawl in the next couple of years to add to this mess!!

    ...and that house prices will be a little more realistic thereby rendering houses a bit more affordable to people getting onto the property ladder. The disgusting house prices in this country are a product of sheer greed which rob many decent hard working individuals of their earnings. There are just too many leeches out there in the property industry. :mad:

    Regards!


  • Advertisement
  • #12
    mysterious
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Ah the government have played this game before

    Cancel the project. Re anounce the project. Cancel the project.. No money. Oh surprise its starting next june.

    Have we had this before?

    Then what? Oh I'll tell you what. They have went through two development plans and now a fun fair T21, where are we still with this crap.


    Government get your finger out and just build the friggen thing, while the is money there. We don't want to wait until the money is gone! Just build it and stop jumping around the bushes.


  • #13
    LFC Murphy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 825 ✭✭✭LFC Murphy


    Just seen this morning that they have started to put down the Timber Fences for the Tuam by-pass (beside the west-wing)


  • #14
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,491 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Moved to Infrastructure.


  • #15
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    So I was right !!!!


  • #16
    MotteDai
    Registered Users Posts: 242 ✭✭MotteDai


    Where is this at now? I know public consultation went on but is it actually going to go ahead?


  • #17
    Chris_533976
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    No idea yet. If it goes to construction, it will be at the end of 2010. Thats a very big IF at the moment.


  • #18
    The Word Is Bor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭The Word Is Bor


    All going well I would think Q4 2010, but Q1 2011 would be more realistic.


  • #19
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,147 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    So I was right !!!!
    Not really much of a victory. That's like correctly guessing that your auntie will get cancer this year.


  • #20
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    The Word Is Bor wrote: »
    All going well I would think Q4 2010, but Q1 2011 would be more realistic.

    Not if the Greens get their way, just pasted this post over from the other thread which is very similar to this one - maybe we should just have one running.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055203154&page=6


    No doubt readers of this thread will have read this depressing news

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...255612639.html


    Irish Times Thursday October 1st Greens seek major gains to offset budgetary pains Transport policy is another key area for the Greens and the party wants to see a reversal of the current ratio of investment in public transport by comparison with roads, with 94 road projects at the design or earlier stages being scrapped. The Atlantic road corridor and the eastern bypass plans would be dropped, while the western rail project would be extended. .



    Subject already debated on WRC thread but it seems the Greens are going to kill off our much needed Atlantic Road corridor. Its almost like an act of spite - not only will we keep FF in power and let them push through NAMA but we will also impose our will on everyone who owns a car and force them to spend the next ten years in a traffic jam in Claregalway. The greens will deserve to be annihalated at the next election.


  • #21
    Chris_533976
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    The Greens arent in charge of transport though. FF can just tell them to stuff it.

    Its not the fact that the ratio of investment will have to be changed, its that there isnt money for EITHER roads OR rail :(


  • Advertisement
  • #22
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Chris_533976 wrote: »
    The Greens arent in charge of transport though. FF can just tell them to stuff it.

    Its not the fact that the ratio of investment will have to be changed, its that there isnt money for EITHER roads OR rail :(

    Don't think FF can tell them to stuff it if they want to get NAMA through - you are of course quite right about NO MONEY!!!!


  • #23
    Tech3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    The Greens mainly the party leaders have been bums for FF over the last number of years. I think this new programme for government could change the funding prioritised for transport though. I agree to a certain extent that it show be put on public transport as it's 3rd world quality. After the PPP's and the M20 there should be no more motorway builds instead heavily focusing on rail in particular.


  • #24
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    If the Greens are serious about beefing up public transport and infrastructural sustainability, then surely they should do something about one-off housing and bad planning instead of chucking the Atlantic Corridor out the window.


  • #25
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    tech2 wrote: »
    The Greens mainly the party leaders have been bums for FF over the last number of years. I think this new programme for government could change the funding prioritised for transport though. I agree to a certain extent that it show be put on public transport as it's 3rd world quality. After the PPP's and the M20 there should be no more motorway builds instead heavily focusing on rail in particular.

    Tech2 we don't really need a motorway for the Atlantic Road corridor just a good safe road that is seamless and keeps out of the towns - in reality 20 miles north or Galway the road could be standard national road like the Knock bypass, the rest dc similar to the 2+2 on the Dromod Roosky section of the N4. All the arguments about rail in the west have been expounded on the WRC thread - we have to live with the car dependency we have - we now need good roads with good bus services and better supply chain on the new roads.


  • #26
    serfboard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Furet wrote: »
    If the Greens are serious about beefing up public transport and infrastructural sustainability, then surely they should do something about one-off housing and bad planning instead of chucking the Atlantic Corridor out the window.

    Agree 100%. The Atlantic Corridor is sustainable infrastructure. It doesn't need motorway the whole way, and that's not planned, anyway. The current plan is M20+M18+M17 as far as Tuam, and (I think) 2+2 for the rest of the N17. In fact 2+2 should only be used for the exceptionally bad bits i.e. The Tuam Bypass, from Curry->Collooney and (maybe) from Milltown to Ballindine. The S2 that currently exists for the rest is fine.

    Sticking one-off houses everywhere around the country is madness, of course. But then, John Gormley can do whatever he likes with regulations now, but after the next election a new Minister can just come along and change them.


  • #27
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Furet wrote: »
    If the Greens are serious about beefing up public transport and infrastructural sustainability, then surely they should do something about one-off housing and bad planning instead of chucking the Atlantic Corridor out the window.

    Also echoing what Serf has said - the Greens seem to have a simplistic view that Roads and cars are bad; there is little doubt our car dependency is pretty difficult to sustain; but so is our residential house planning or non planning; some of the one off mansions being built now for families that are actually reducing in size are quite ludicrous; but that aside, what the greens don't get about the road building programme is that new roads will mean more efficient running of cars lorries and indeed buses - what is better for example to have all north south traffic bypassing Galway to sit idling their engines for an hour every morning in Claregalway or to travel efficiently and more carbon efficiently on a modern seamless road? The Greens won't change our car dependency - but they have the power to make our cars more efficient by improving the roads - will they see it this way - I think not.


  • #28
    Enbee
    Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭Enbee


    Furet wrote: »
    If the Greens are serious about beefing up public transport and infrastructural sustainability, then surely they should do something about one-off housing and bad planning instead of chucking the Atlantic Corridor out the window.

    Indeed if they showed a little more imagination they might realise how the motorway network offers improved opportunities for a better nationwide public transport system.

    This article by George Monbiot proposed a very sensible use of the bursting at the seams motorway network in the UK:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/dec/05/comment.politics

    Commenting on the lamentable state of the coach system in the UK he says:

    ...the system is unbelievably stupid. It is a hangover from the time when coaches were pulled by horses, and were probably faster. A far better scheme has been proposed by a visionary economist called Alan Storkey.Storkey's key innovation is to move coach stations out of city centres, to the junctions of motorways. One of the reasons long coach journeys are so slow in the UK is that - in order to create a system that allows passengers to transfer from one coach to another - they must enter the towns along the way, travelling into the centre and out again. In the rush hour you might as well walk.

    Instead of dragging motorway transport into the cities, Storkey's system drags city transport out to the motorways. Urban buses on their way out of town, he proposes, keep travelling to the nearest motorway junction, where they meet the coaches. By connecting urban public transport to the national network, Storkey's proposal could revitalise both systems, as it provides more frequent and more viable bus services for the suburbs.
    The coaches would never leave the trunk roads and motorways. Some services would constantly circle the orbital roads; others would travel up and down the motorways that connect to them. You would change from one coach to another at the junctions. Just 200 coaches on the M25, Storkey calculates, would ensure an average waiting time of between two and three minutes. They would be given dedicated lanes and priority at traffic lights, disentangling them from the cars that now hold them up and force them to bunch. The tabloid newspapers might fulminate, but it would not be long before people stuck in their cars began to notice the buses roaring past on the inside.


    Imagine how fast a coach route the M20-M18-M17-N17 from Cork to Sligo via Limerick and Galway could be............


  • #29
    serfboard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Enbee wrote: »
    Indeed if they showed a little more imagination they might realise how the motorway network offers improved opportunities for a better nationwide public transport system.

    This article by George Monbiot proposed a very sensible use of the bursting at the seams motorway network in the UK:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/dec/05/comment.politics

    Commenting on the lamentable state of the coach system in the UK he says:

    ...the system is unbelievably stupid. It is a hangover from the time when coaches were pulled by horses, and were probably faster. A far better scheme has been proposed by a visionary economist called Alan Storkey.Storkey's key innovation is to move coach stations out of city centres, to the junctions of motorways. One of the reasons long coach journeys are so slow in the UK is that - in order to create a system that allows passengers to transfer from one coach to another - they must enter the towns along the way, travelling into the centre and out again. In the rush hour you might as well walk.

    Instead of dragging motorway transport into the cities, Storkey's system drags city transport out to the motorways. Urban buses on their way out of town, he proposes, keep travelling to the nearest motorway junction, where they meet the coaches. By connecting urban public transport to the national network, Storkey's proposal could revitalise both systems, as it provides more frequent and more viable bus services for the suburbs.
    The coaches would never leave the trunk roads and motorways. Some services would constantly circle the orbital roads; others would travel up and down the motorways that connect to them. You would change from one coach to another at the junctions. Just 200 coaches on the M25, Storkey calculates, would ensure an average waiting time of between two and three minutes. They would be given dedicated lanes and priority at traffic lights, disentangling them from the cars that now hold them up and force them to bunch. The tabloid newspapers might fulminate, but it would not be long before people stuck in their cars began to notice the buses roaring past on the inside.


    Imagine how fast a coach route the M20-M18-M17-N17 from Cork to Sligo via Limerick and Galway could be............

    Another name for this fancy scheme is Bus Park & Ride. It's what I've been saying for a long time. Located on the outskirts of a town/city you can park your car there and get a bus into the city centre. Express buses can also stop there (and even terminate there) for the same purpose.

    When (if) Gort->Tuam M18/M17 does get built, you could build a fantastic one at Rathmorissey. All M6, M18, M17 buses could stop there and you could transfer to an express bus to Galway City centre, its suburbs and its industrial parks. Likewise people could park & ride there to get services to Galway, Dublin, Limerick and Sligo.


  • #30
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Serfboard, great idea. Is anyone with any influence reading this thread? Sometimes I think we should put pen to paper and espouse our views in a newspaper letters page!


  • Advertisement
  • #31
    nordydan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭nordydan


    Enbee wrote: »
    Indeed if they showed a little more imagination they might realise how the motorway network offers improved opportunities for a better nationwide public transport system.

    This article by George Monbiot proposed a very sensible use of the bursting at the seams motorway network in the UK:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/dec/05/comment.politics

    Commenting on the lamentable state of the coach system in the UK he says:

    ...the system is unbelievably stupid. It is a hangover from the time when coaches were pulled by horses, and were probably faster. A far better scheme has been proposed by a visionary economist called Alan Storkey.Storkey's key innovation is to move coach stations out of city centres, to the junctions of motorways. One of the reasons long coach journeys are so slow in the UK is that - in order to create a system that allows passengers to transfer from one coach to another - they must enter the towns along the way, travelling into the centre and out again. In the rush hour you might as well walk.

    Instead of dragging motorway transport into the cities, Storkey's system drags city transport out to the motorways. Urban buses on their way out of town, he proposes, keep travelling to the nearest motorway junction, where they meet the coaches. By connecting urban public transport to the national network, Storkey's proposal could revitalise both systems, as it provides more frequent and more viable bus services for the suburbs.
    The coaches would never leave the trunk roads and motorways. Some services would constantly circle the orbital roads; others would travel up and down the motorways that connect to them. You would change from one coach to another at the junctions. Just 200 coaches on the M25, Storkey calculates, would ensure an average waiting time of between two and three minutes. They would be given dedicated lanes and priority at traffic lights, disentangling them from the cars that now hold them up and force them to bunch. The tabloid newspapers might fulminate, but it would not be long before people stuck in their cars began to notice the buses roaring past on the inside.


    Imagine how fast a coach route the M20-M18-M17-N17 from Cork to Sligo via Limerick and Galway could be............

    I've often thought of this system myself. the bus follows the route and you get to the route.


  • #32
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Think we had a thread on this subject earlier in the year - in fact I think I started it suggested bus halts near the junctions of the new motorways but out of the towns would expedidiate journies. Again its joined up thinking but as ever that is what we lack when it comes to transport planning.

    Serfboard - do you think this idea could be incorporated into Green transport bus planning for the west?


  • #33
    serfboard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Furet wrote: »
    Serfboard, great idea. Is anyone with any influence reading this thread? Sometimes I think we should put pen to paper and espouse our views in a newspaper letters page!

    Good idea Furet. I've created a Google Doc which has the points I've raised above in it and whose link I will send to you via PM so that you can add to it. We can then decide what to do with it later.

    Anyone else want to contribute, please PM me.


  • #34
    Enbee
    Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭Enbee


    nordydan wrote: »
    I've often thought of this system myself. the bus follows the route and you get to the route.

    A better use of money than having a matching rail line though.


  • #35
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,147 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    nordydan wrote: »
    I've often thought of this system myself. the bus follows the route and you get to the route.
    That system is great for the company, but not the passenger. You have to get a bus/taxi to the motorway, then get the bus, then another at the far end into the city centre. With you luggage, that's a lot of hassle.
    westtip wrote: »
    Think we had a thread on this subject earlier in the year - in fact I think I started it suggested bus halts near the junctions of the new motorways but out of the towns would expedidiate journies. Again its joined up thinking but as ever that is what we lack when it comes to transport planning.
    It makes a one-stage journey into a 3-stage journey. It's the opposite of joined-up thinking.


  • #36
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    spacetweek wrote: »
    That system is great for the company, but not the passenger. You have to get a bus/taxi to the motorway, then get the bus, then another at the far end into the city centre. With you luggage, that's a lot of hassle.

    It makes a one-stage journey into a 3-stage journey. It's the opposite of joined-up thinking.

    Spacetweek - think this is taking us off thread - but there you go. I think the guy in the Guardian got it pretty spot on - the idea really does have merit and his description of his journey in Cambridge is a good case study - Lets think how this could be applied on our own emerging motorway system. Lets accept your argument about additional journies after you have got off the bus - lets face it not many of us live in five minutes walk of the bus station - so this journey has to be made - the idea of being dropped off at a bus station/halt near a motorway junction is I suppose the equivalent of Ryanairs "London Luton" type argument, Luton is not in London but has a good fast train line into Kings Cross and is well serviced by buses (national coache services etc, so you can move on quickly from Luton Airport. The Guardian article argued that local buses would regularly go through these "gateway" periphery bus stations - which would give connectivity to the local town/city centre - so why not adopt this idea - surely this is joined up thinking? The idea is a good one - but it would need to be incorporated into the plannng of the motorway system - Unfortunately we are building a motorway system that doesn't even have a network of petrol/service stations on it - so plannng in mini bus stations near the road junctions to major towns would be asking far too much methinks.


  • Advertisement
  • #37
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    I would think that a permanent shuttle can run city centre > bus hub Spacetweek . Not in Tuam mind but in Galway or Limerick or even Athlone !

    It need not be luxurious , bit like an airport bus . It would only do 2 -3 mile runs on a loop and back .


  • #38
    Zoney
    Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    In Limerick's case you'd lose the advantage of the interconnect between bus and rail. Also it would not take much to provide a bus corridor between one of the M7 interchanges and the bus station - the planned change to the bus station to have access via Roxboro road will improve things too, although that will be slightly negated by the loss of access from M7/M20 to Childers/Roxboro roads (buses will have to use the N24 junction). For ten years there have been plans to have a bus corridor on Mulgrave St. (former N24 into city centre) held up.

    If city-bound access was restored at M20/M7, adding slips to Roxboro Road as suggested, then it would be trivial for buses to get to the new bus station access point further in along the same road - the only intermediate traffic junctions being Roxborough roundabout and the T junction for Carey's Road.


  • #39
    Enbee
    Registered Users Posts: 83 ✭✭Enbee


    Zoney wrote: »
    In Limerick's case you'd lose the advantage of the interconnect between bus and rail.

    That wouldn't happen if these additional routes complemented existing ones.


  • #40
    serfboard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭serfboard


    spacetweek wrote: »
    That system is great for the company, but not the passenger. You have to get a bus/taxi to the motorway, then get the bus, then another at the far end into the city centre. With you luggage, that's a lot of hassle.

    It makes a one-stage journey into a 3-stage journey. It's the opposite of joined-up thinking.

    Good arguments. The bus route would go something like this. City Centre A->Bus Park & Ride A->Bus Park & Ride B->City Centre B. Bus Park & Ride A->Bus Park & Ride B could thus be made into very reliable and quick journey times.

    I've been on bus services in the UK that do this. Local services also pick up and drop off at the Park & Ride.
    westtip wrote: »
    lets face it not many of us live in five minutes walk of the bus station - so this journey has to be made

    Exactly. Under the existing set-up, you still have to make a journey from your location in City A to the bus station (city centre) in City A, and from the bus station (city centre) in city B to your final destination. Still a 3-stage journey anyway.


  • #41
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Thang goodness this project wasn't named to be shelved in the new programme for Government - The Eastern wider orbital bypass of Dublin was - although this was highyly unlikely to happen in any event - but the Greens had names the Atlantic Road Corridor as one they had targetted to take off the list in last weeks report - Thankfully this has not happened - Anyway as we all know makes little difference as there is no money!

    Mind I did the N17 to Galway last night there and back in the evening (Sligo Galway) - not been on it for a few weeks - each time I do I am reminded of the brutality of this route - god help you folk who use it everyday.


  • Advertisement
  • #42
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    It is shelved. the 2:1 ratio is predicated on public transport spending post 2011 . This itself shall be anorexic and 50% of **** all is **** all ....as we know.

    If you read carefully they are saying that no new road projects will start between now and 2011 and thereafter ( 2012) the new ratio applies .


  • #43
    marmurr1916
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    The revised Programme for Government says that the final designs of all 94 planned road projects will be reviewed in the light of falling traffic (!), and environmental and economic circumstances.

    Translated, that means that any planned motorways/HQDCs will probably be downgraded to 2+2 standard and any planned 2+2 will probably be downgraded to single-carriageway.

    It also seems likely that some of these projects will be dropped, at least for the lifetime of this government.

    I'd expect the Gort to Tuam motorway to go ahead though, although it's very unlikely that the M20 will proceed or that most of the proposed 2+2 upgrades to the N17 between Tuam and Collooney and the N15 between Sligo and Co. Donegal will proceed.


  • #44
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    marmurr1916 wrote: »
    Translated, that means that any planned motorways/HQDCs will probably be downgraded to 2+2 standard and any planned 2+2 will probably be downgraded to single-carriageway.

    Translated that also means that "Every one of the 94 planned National Road projects must be reviewed. Following such a review any National Road Project that does not meet design criteria must be redesigned." .

    In many cases that will mean narrowing and reduced land take but no route or alignment changes . Naturally there is bugger all money for all of this which is a great excuse to kick a load of these into limbo.
    I'd expect the Gort to Tuam motorway to go ahead though, although it's very unlikely that the M20 will proceed or that most of the proposed 2+2 upgrades to the N17 between Tuam and Collooney and the N15 between Sligo and Co. Donegal will proceed.

    Claregalway traffic has dropped but not by very much

    http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N17-16.htm

    N18 traffic is difficult to 'interpret' as you can see , it appears to have RISEN

    http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N18-6.htm

    I would worry about the M20 though :(


  • #45
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    marmurr1916 wrote: »
    I'd expect the Gort to Tuam motorway to go ahead though, although it's very unlikely that the M20 will proceed or that most of the proposed 2+2 upgrades to the N17 between Tuam and Collooney and the N15 between Sligo and Co. Donegal will proceed.

    really based on volume of traffic it wouldn't be a tragedy if the N17 - Sligo Tuam was simply upgrade to wide single with hard shoulder - as per the standard of the Claremorris/Knock bypass if Tuam Gort was 2+2 DC instead of motorway - that would not be a major issue - but this road is desparately in need of upgrading. It is very dangerous neve mind the volume of traffic. Also the N15 Sligo - Co Donegal - A deathrap of a road - the most important thing is a new road be it the standard of the Bundoran by-pass then so be it -this road is lethal at present. If the M20 ended up as 2+2 instead of motorway woudl that be a major issue? All academic there is no money anyway.


  • #46
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    westtip wrote: »
    All academic there is no money anyway.

    To Be honest I would be happy were they to simply bypass GALWAY ( N59-Airport will do me ) and Claregalway and Tuam over the next 5-10 years .

    I can live with the rest of the N15/N17 because I do not commute it and would then not have to cross Galway in the rush hours which is utterly hellish :(


  • #47
    Chris_533976
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    Money aside, I cant see even the stupidity of this government building Gort to Athenry as 2+2, since you'd end up with a glaring motorway gap. That will be built as M18 **sometime**. I reckon though you could get away with Athenry to Tuam as 2+2 with a Claregalway inner relief road thrown in.


  • #48
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Chris_533976 wrote: »
    Money aside, I cant see even the stupidity of this government building Gort to Athenry as 2+2.

    This is the same government that is running the Fibre To The Fish project in Galway Bay , of course they can :(

    Very good capacity-demand matching formulae from here once you strip out the traffic that will not go as far as Athenry .

    It shows that Mysterious was not entirely on a bum steer with his fourth lane east of Newlands Cross:p
    Note . The selected representative sections are:

    • Sub-standard 2 lane: 5-6m pavement on a 8-9m platform
    • Standard 2 lane: 7m pavement on 11m platform reflecting EU norms
    • Standard 2 lane + (crawler lane): As standard above plus 3rd lane of 3.5m
    • Half Motorway profile (2x 3.75m lane carriageway with shoulders)
    [FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]
    ( Trans-European Motorway Standards and Recommended Practice, UN-ECE, Trans-European North-South Motorway; Revised Draft March 2000)

    Table A5 – 1: Highway Capacity (vehicles per day)

    Carriageway Type Flat / Hilly Terrain ( Ireland has no mountains, stripped out ) .

    Half Motorway would essentially be WS2 with the land all taken for 2+2 and 100% GSJ .

    Arguably the problem is proving that the jump from 12k-16k will occur as against a party that are adamant that they will tax cars off the road anyway thereby capping the roads at 12k-14k movements per day as is broadly the case at present on the busier sections of the Atlantic corridor .

    [/FONT][/FONT]Sub-standard 2 lane 4000 - 7000
    Standard 2 lane 8000 - 12000
    Half Motorway profile 9500 - 14000
    Expressway 17500 - 30000

    2x2 lane Motorway:

    Rural 20000 – 35000
    Urban 30000 - 55000

    2x3 lane Motorway:

    Rural 31000 - 52000
    Urban 65000 - 85000

    and some nice pics, look at how eastern europe builds motorways ( in this case across Transylvania)




  • #49
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    and some nice pics, look at how eastern europe builds motorways ( in this case across Transylvania)


    Great pics in that thread in Transylvania - looks like they don't have any Peter Sweetmans over there or have to cope with any EIS implications - just get on with it boys!

    On those traffic counts - look at the figures from the NRA website http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N17-15.htm

    Tuam Road section of the N17 around 15,000 vehicles per day http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N17-15.htm

    Claregalway around 22,500 per day

    http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N17-16.htm

    Gort about 13,000

    http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N17-16.htm

    The traffic count figures do not justify full blown motorway so for me anyway 2+2 dc would suffice from Gort to Tuam...others may disagree


  • #50
    Chris_533976
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    The thing is that no traffic numbers in Ireland justify motorway. Abbeyleix takes 15k and is getting motorway.

    We have to stop somewhere, so I'd say Gort to Athenry should be motorway to plug the gap, with the M17 built entirely as 2+2 and the Claregalway relief road pushed.

    Then apart from the M20, the rest of the M11 and a couple of bits and pieces, we dont really need anymore motorway yet. 2+2s, some APDC or S2s for the rest of the way.


  • #51
    westtip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Pretty much agree with your post Chris.


  • Advertisement
Advertisement