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Treaty United

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  • 05-02-2021 9:34pm
    #1
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,559 ✭✭✭✭


    As you may remember, Limerick FC dropped out of the league at the end of the 2019 season so the city had no representative in League of Ireland last season.

    This season, both Limerick FC (with Pat O'Sullivan still involved) and Treaty United, who are a very new entity, applied for licences to join the first division.

    We do not know the licensing decision yet, but today Treaty United appointed Tommy Barrett as their manager, so they must be confident in their application. No such news about Limerick FC.

    We may have a LOI team in the city this season (albeit behind closed doors at the start at least).


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    #2
    Red Silurian
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    osarusan wrote: »
    As you may remember, Limerick FC dropped out of the league at the end of the 2019 season so the city had no representative in League of Ireland last season.

    This season, both Limerick FC (with Pat O'Sullivan still involved) and Treaty United, who are a very new entity, applied for licences to join the first division.

    We do not know the licensing decision yet, but today Treaty United appointed Tommy Barrett as their manager, so they must be confident in their application. No such news about Limerick FC.

    We may have a LOI team in the city this season (albeit behind closed doors at the start at least).

    I'm not a massive soccer fan but surely a better option is for the 2 teams to merge and share their ideas?


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    #3
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,858 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    colmtheperson wrote: »
    I'm not a massive soccer fan but surely a better option is for the 2 teams to merge and share their ideas?

    Maybe when the current owner has finally given up and moved on.


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    #4
    Red Silurian
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Insect Overlord wrote: »
    Maybe when the current owner has finally given up and moved on.

    What does the current owner actually have? Does he even own the markets field??


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    #5
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,559 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    colmtheperson wrote: »
    What does the current owner actually have? Does he even own the markets field??


    He owns the company behind Limerick FC, so he owns that name. As well as that, he (or that company) owns the names Limerick City and Limerick United (I think). This is why Treaty United have the name they do - because the 'Limerick' variants are not available.

    The Markets Field is owned by the LEDP, who rented it to Limerick (at a pretty penny too). I believe Treaty United have an agreement to play there, should they join the first division. I am not sure if Limerick FC have any place to play, or any players, coaching staff, or any kind of structure whatsoever.

    What usually happens in situations like this is the 'new' club plays for a couple of seasons under a new name, then they are able to earn/buy the rights to the old (now non-existent) club. This is basically what happened with Limerick 37, as well as Cork City Foras and, I think, one or two others.

    O'Sullivan is so stubborn though, he just might not give in on the name at all. To answer your earlier question, the reason we have two applications from Limerick, rather than combining resources, is also O'Sullivan's stubbornness. He invested a lot of money and, from his perspective, got very little back, and even now, when everybody has been burned by him and turned their backs to him, he simply cannot let it go.

    He didn't know that (with the possible recent exception of Dundalk) nobody, nobody, who ever invests in a LOI team ever comes away with a profit. You spend and spend and maybe you win some trophies and create some great memories along the way, but at the end, you just have to walk away from it.


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    #6
    ShatterProof
    Registered Users Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭ShatterProof


    How do you make a small fortune in LOI football?
    Start with a big one.


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    #7
    A2LUE42
    Registered Users Posts: 2,533 ✭✭✭A2LUE42


    ShatterProof wrote: »
    How do you make a small fortune in LOI football?
    Start with a big one.

    Unfortunately a lot of locals were owed money that they will never see. Small businesses and suppliers that were promised payments that never materialised. I'd expect the new Treaty United to not copy that business model.


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    #8
    johnnyryan89
    Registered Users Posts: 8,735 ✭✭✭johnnyryan89


    It will be interesting to see what kind of squad they'll be able to assemble. Junior players haven't played in quite awhile so you'd imagine that anyone who didn't feature in the LOI last season probably haven't been training that much apart from general fitness.


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    #9
    Red Silurian
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    osarusan wrote: »
    He owns the company behind Limerick FC, so he owns that name. As well as that, he (or that company) owns the names Limerick City and Limerick United (I think). This is why Treaty United have the name they do - because the 'Limerick' variants are not available.

    The Markets Field is owned by the LEDP, who rented it to Limerick (at a pretty penny too). I believe Treaty United have an agreement to play there, should they join the first division. I am not sure if Limerick FC have any place to play, or any players, coaching staff, or any kind of structure whatsoever.

    What usually happens in situations like this is the 'new' club plays for a couple of seasons under a new name, then they are able to earn/buy the rights to the old (now non-existent) club. This is basically what happened with Limerick 37, as well as Cork City Foras and, I think, one or two others.

    O'Sullivan is so stubborn though, he just might not give in on the name at all. To answer your earlier question, the reason we have two applications from Limerick, rather than combining resources, is also O'Sullivan's stubbornness. He invested a lot of money and, from his perspective, got very little back, and even now, when everybody has been burned by him and turned their backs to him, he simply cannot let it go.

    He didn't know that (with the possible recent exception of Dundalk) nobody, nobody, who ever invests in a LOI team ever comes away with a profit. You spend and spend and maybe you win some trophies and create some great memories along the way, but at the end, you just have to walk away from it.

    Pat O Sullivan doesn't seem to be the smartest business man, I remember when he had the bars in Thomond Park and one person working behind them at half-time with thirsty punters unable to get a beer... Surely a merger with Treaty United and having 50% of a relatively successful business is better than 100% of a business that has nothing other than a brand name


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    #10
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,858 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    colmtheperson wrote: »
    Pat O Sullivan doesn't seem to be the smartest business man, I remember when he had the bars in Thomond Park and one person working behind them at half-time with thirsty punters unable to get a beer... Surely a merger with Treaty United and having 50% of a relatively successful business is better than 100% of a business that has nothing other than a brand name

    It might make sense for Pat, from his POV, but why would anybody else want to go into a partnership with him at this stage?


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    #11
    somespud
    Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭somespud


    Pat O Sulivan Limerick FC and Pat O Sulivan Masterchefs is not the same person


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    #12
    ShatterProof
    Registered Users Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭ShatterProof


    A 10 team first division fixture list released today , 9 teams plus 1 TBC

    "Athlone Town, Bray Wanderers, Cabinteely, Cobh Ramblers, Cork City, Galway United, Shelbourne, UCD, Wexford – and one team designated as TBC ahead of the outcome of the licensing process later this month, which still involves all candidates."

    Of course it the FAI so the actual number of teams will more than likely not be 10.


    linky https://www.sseairtricityleague.ie/news/2021-sse-airtricity-first-division-fixture-list-confirmed-/id-3593


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    #13
    johnnyryan89
    Registered Users Posts: 8,735 ✭✭✭johnnyryan89


    Pretty sure they said they'll draw up a ten team fixture list and a 12 team fixture list just in case.


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    #14
    Red Silurian
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    somespud wrote: »
    Pat O Sulivan Limerick FC and Pat O Sulivan Masterchefs is not the same person

    Ah I did not know that, in a way I'm glad as Pat O Sullivan MasterChef has always been a very nice man in my opinion (I believe he ran a meals on wheels type service in lockdown 1) and what was said about him (I thought) on this thread didn't exactly add up to the person


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    #15
    bocaman
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭bocaman


    Would be great to see a team from Limerick, either Treaty United or Limerick FC, back in the League


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    #16
    Paddico
    Registered Users Posts: 1,031 ✭✭✭Paddico


    Another ego in the LOI and stinging local business at the same time.
    Treaty should get their license.

    Anyone know what POS put into Limerick FC money wise?


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    #17
    Red Silurian
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    bocaman wrote: »
    Would be great to see a team from Limerick, either Treaty United or Limerick FC, back in the League

    I think it would make more sense to go down the route the IRFU did, provincialise the system, make a deal with the Scottish and maybe the Welsh on a professional league, centrally contract players and watch the money roll in


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    #18
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    osarusan wrote: »
    He owns the company behind Limerick FC, so he owns that name. As well as that, he (or that company) owns the names Limerick City and Limerick United (I think). This is why Treaty United have the name they do - because the 'Limerick' variants are not available.

    The Markets Field is owned by the LEDP, who rented it to Limerick (at a pretty penny too). I believe Treaty United have an agreement to play there, should they join the first division. I am not sure if Limerick FC have any place to play, or any players, coaching staff, or any kind of structure whatsoever.

    What usually happens in situations like this is the 'new' club plays for a couple of seasons under a new name, then they are able to earn/buy the rights to the old (now non-existent) club. This is basically what happened with Limerick 37, as well as Cork City Foras and, I think, one or two others.

    O'Sullivan is so stubborn though, he just might not give in on the name at all. To answer your earlier question, the reason we have two applications from Limerick, rather than combining resources, is also O'Sullivan's stubbornness. He invested a lot of money and, from his perspective, got very little back, and even now, when everybody has been burned by him and turned their backs to him, he simply cannot let it go.

    He didn't know that (with the possible recent exception of Dundalk) nobody, nobody, who ever invests in a LOI team ever comes away with a profit. You spend and spend and maybe you win some trophies and create some great memories along the way, but at the end, you just have to walk away from it.

    Limerick FC still have at least two assets I can think of though. Any future transfers of former Limerick FC players may have clauses that give a certain percentage to Limerick FC. So if Paudie O'Connor or Ogbene move clubs (for example) there may be a cut in it for Limerick FC.

    Limerick FC also appear to still be running a football academy so again, any players who graduate to professional football will owe a percentage to Limerick FC, since, afaik, underage clubs continue to get a cut of professional footballers contracts throughout their careers, called solidarity payments. https://www.fai.ie/domestic/governance/fifa-solidarity-and-compensation-payments

    I think Treaty missed a trick by not calling themselves Thomond and going for the entire of North Munster as their supporter base. Clare and North Tipperary don't associate with the title Treaty as much as they could have with Thomond (which used to include both areas etc).

    (I'll be honest, up until Tommy Barrett was announced I had thought they were going by Thomond, so I haven't been following it closely).


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    #19
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,924 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    colmtheperson wrote: »
    I think it would make more sense to go down the route the IRFU did, provincialise the system, make a deal with the Scottish and maybe the Welsh on a professional league, centrally contract players and watch the money roll in

    The Soccer forum would be a better forum to discuss such topics.


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    #20
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    colmtheperson wrote: »
    I think it would make more sense to go down the route the IRFU did, provincialise the system, make a deal with the Scottish and maybe the Welsh on a professional league, centrally contract players and watch the money roll in

    While that makes sense in theory, from reading that book about John Delaney's tenure of the FAI, the people running the junior leagues in Ireland (who appear to still back him to some degree) seem unlikely to go for it. The book gives the impression of a lot of lads who care more about their private area of influence than the good of the overall game here. (Easy for a guy on the outside to say that though).


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    #21
    johnnyryan89
    Registered Users Posts: 8,735 ✭✭✭johnnyryan89


    colmtheperson wrote: »
    I think it would make more sense to go down the route the IRFU did, provincialise the system, make a deal with the Scottish and maybe the Welsh on a professional league, centrally contract players and watch the money roll in

    Would never work in a million years.


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    #22
    Jofspring
    Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Jofspring


    Paddico wrote: »
    Anyone know what POS put into Limerick FC money wise?

    Easily €5 million, probably more.


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    #23
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,840 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    colmtheperson wrote: »
    I think it would make more sense to go down the route the IRFU did, provincialise the system, make a deal with the Scottish and maybe the Welsh on a professional league, centrally contract players and watch the money roll in
    The Scots already have 4 divisions of league football with some very successful professional clubs (you may have heard of one or two of them ;-) ) who would have zero interest in such a proposal. The Welsh have 4 teams in the English league system, two of whom recently played in the PL. Again a non runner.

    The football situation in those countries is nothing at all like the situation in rugby. And the money certainly does not roll in in the rugby.


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    #24
    AnonZen
    Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭AnonZen


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Limerick FC still have at least two assets I can think of though. Any future transfers of former Limerick FC players may have clauses that give a certain percentage to Limerick FC. So if Paudie O'Connor or Ogbene move clubs (for example) there may be a cut in it for Limerick FC.

    Limerick FC also appear to still be running a football academy so again, any players who graduate to professional football will owe a percentage to Limerick FC, since, afaik, underage clubs continue to get a cut of professional footballers contracts throughout their careers, called solidarity payments. https://www.fai.ie/domestic/governance/fifa-solidarity-and-compensation-payments

    This is where I could see the can being kicked down the road by the FAI, at least for another year. Pat has already stated that he had no intention of entering a senior team this year. So they could award a licence to Treaty, while still allowing Limerick FC to compete in the underage.

    Although I can imagine there would be more fun and games if Treaty ended up signing a significant portion of the long term Limerick FC underage players.


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    #25
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    AnonZen wrote: »
    This is where I could see the can being kicked down the road by the FAI, at least for another year. Pat has already stated that he had no intention of entering a senior team this year. So they could award a licence to Treaty, while still allowing Limerick FC to compete in the underage.

    Although I can imagine there would be more fun and games if Treaty ended up signing a significant portion of the long term Limerick FC underage players.

    The Academy is in theory more valuable than the senior side to some degree, if you can produce a player that plays professional football you are written into their future contracts.

    Presumably someone involved in junior football in Limerick can explain how the Limerick FC Academy interacts with the local clubs.

    Anyhow, my point is Limerick FC still has decent reasons to continue in some form until the young lads from a few years ago leave professional sport. I remember a few years ago Limerick FC conceded 8 goals to Dundalk on the same night 3 former Limerick FC players played in the Championship (O'Connor, Ogbene and Barry Cotter, iirc). All 3 are unlikely to have big, big careers, but they could still move clubs for reasonably decent figures over the next decade. No idea who else is out there who came through the Limerick FC academy but potentially there's future fees to consider for any of them.


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    #26
    Red Silurian
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    [Deleted User] wrote: »


    I think Treaty missed a trick by not calling themselves Thomond and going for the entire of North Munster as their supporter base. Clare and North Tipperary don't associate with the title Treaty as much as they could have with Thomond (which used to include both areas etc).
    .

    Yes Thomond or Tuadh Mumhan (North Munster) as it is known in old Irish would be excellent, they could even make a deal to play at Thomond Park for free publicity from the rugby crowd


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    #27
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,559 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Deleted User wrote: »

    I think Treaty missed a trick by not calling themselves Thomond and going for the entire of North Munster as their supporter base. Clare and North Tipperary don't associate with the title Treaty as much as they could have with Thomond (which used to include both areas etc).

    Treaty United aren't going to gain or lose out on supporters based on their name in my opinion.


    Would people really be motivated to attend games by an 'inclusive' name like Thomond? Who feel excluded by the name 'Limerick' or 'Treaty'?


    I mean, I can't see anybody who wasn't a Limerick FC supporter being a supporter of the new club either.


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    #28
    johnnyryan89
    Registered Users Posts: 8,735 ✭✭✭johnnyryan89


    colmtheperson wrote: »
    Yes Thomond or Tuadh Mumhan (North Munster) as it is known in old Irish would be excellent, they could even make a deal to play at Thomond Park for free publicity from the rugby crowd

    Why would they ever want to return to Thomond Park again. And it's not really free publicity when you gotta pay to rent the place. It would probably be cheaper to pay a pr company to help you with publicity instead of shelling out for a 26k capacity stadium when you'll possibly have a core support of a few hundred fans.
    osarusan wrote: »
    Treaty United aren't going to gain or lose out on supporters based on their name in my opinion.


    Would people really be motivated to attend games by an 'inclusive' name like Thomond? Who feel excluded by the name 'Limerick' or 'Treaty'?


    I mean, I can't see anybody who wasn't a Limerick FC supporter being a supporter of the new club either.

    Even the idiots that have stated "I can't support a club that doesn't have the name Limerick in it" will be along after awhile and even faster if the club actually do well.


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    #29
    c.p.w.g.w
    Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    Pat O'Sullivan's limerick owe money all over town...last I heard, it was 300,000 owed to different limerick business', also owes the guards 50,000...

    And don't get me started on how they treated Sean Russell...

    If Pat was involved I won't be getting behind the project, and I'm someone who has been to over 100 away games(Harps, Monaghan & Derry are long fecking days) and been a season ticket for a number of years too...


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    #30
    Red Silurian
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    osarusan wrote: »
    Treaty United aren't going to gain or lose out on supporters based on their name in my opinion.


    Would people really be motivated to attend games by an 'inclusive' name like Thomond? Who feel excluded by the name 'Limerick' or 'Treaty'?


    I mean, I can't see anybody who wasn't a Limerick FC supporter being a supporter of the new club either.

    Yeah but if you're a soccer supporter in Clare, Tip or Kerry you might be more likely to pop the head over the border for a game or 2


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    #31
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    osarusan wrote: »
    Treaty United aren't going to gain or lose out on supporters based on their name in my opinion.


    Would people really be motivated to attend games by an 'inclusive' name like Thomond? Who feel excluded by the name 'Limerick' or 'Treaty'?


    I mean, I can't see anybody who wasn't a Limerick FC supporter being a supporter of the new club either.

    No one I know from Clare or Tipperary is going to support a team called Limerick, sure why would they?

    They might support a team called Treaty but think Thomond would be an easier sell. It probably isn't a huge number of potential fans but it's an easier brand, imo, to sell to a wider group of people.

    It was just an aside really, in reality it hardly matters.


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