Treaty United

osarusan

As you may remember, Limerick FC dropped out of the league at the end of the 2019 season so the city had no representative in League of Ireland last season.

This season, both Limerick FC (with Pat O'Sullivan still involved) and Treaty United, who are a very new entity, applied for licences to join the first division.

We do not know the licensing decision yet, but today Treaty United appointed Tommy Barrett as their manager, so they must be confident in their application. No such news about Limerick FC.

We may have a LOI team in the city this season (albeit behind closed doors at the start at least).

Red Silurian

osarusan wrote: »

As you may remember, Limerick FC dropped out of the league at the end of the 2019 season so the city had no representative in League of Ireland last season.

This season, both Limerick FC (with Pat O'Sullivan still involved) and Treaty United, who are a very new entity, applied for licences to join the first division.

We do not know the licensing decision yet, but today Treaty United appointed Tommy Barrett as their manager, so they must be confident in their application. No such news about Limerick FC.

We may have a LOI team in the city this season (albeit behind closed doors at the start at least).

I'm not a massive soccer fan but surely a better option is for the 2 teams to merge and share their ideas?

Insect Overlord

colmtheperson wrote: »

I'm not a massive soccer fan but surely a better option is for the 2 teams to merge and share their ideas?

Maybe when the current owner has finally given up and moved on.

Red Silurian

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Maybe when the current owner has finally given up and moved on.

What does the current owner actually have? Does he even own the markets field??

osarusan

colmtheperson wrote: »

What does the current owner actually have? Does he even own the markets field??

He owns the company behind Limerick FC, so he owns that name. As well as that, he (or that company) owns the names Limerick City and Limerick United (I think). This is why Treaty United have the name they do - because the 'Limerick' variants are not available.

The Markets Field is owned by the LEDP, who rented it to Limerick (at a pretty penny too). I believe Treaty United have an agreement to play there, should they join the first division. I am not sure if Limerick FC have any place to play, or any players, coaching staff, or any kind of structure whatsoever.

What usually happens in situations like this is the 'new' club plays for a couple of seasons under a new name, then they are able to earn/buy the rights to the old (now non-existent) club. This is basically what happened with Limerick 37, as well as Cork City Foras and, I think, one or two others.

O'Sullivan is so stubborn though, he just might not give in on the name at all. To answer your earlier question, the reason we have two applications from Limerick, rather than combining resources, is also O'Sullivan's stubbornness. He invested a lot of money and, from his perspective, got very little back, and even now, when everybody has been burned by him and turned their backs to him, he simply cannot let it go.

He didn't know that (with the possible recent exception of Dundalk) nobody, nobody, who ever invests in a LOI team ever comes away with a profit. You spend and spend and maybe you win some trophies and create some great memories along the way, but at the end, you just have to walk away from it.

ShatterProof

How do you make a small fortune in LOI football?
Start with a big one.

A2LUE42

ShatterProof wrote: »

How do you make a small fortune in LOI football?
Start with a big one.

Unfortunately a lot of locals were owed money that they will never see. Small businesses and suppliers that were promised payments that never materialised. I'd expect the new Treaty United to not copy that business model.

johnnyryan89

It will be interesting to see what kind of squad they'll be able to assemble. Junior players haven't played in quite awhile so you'd imagine that anyone who didn't feature in the LOI last season probably haven't been training that much apart from general fitness.

Red Silurian

osarusan wrote: »

He owns the company behind Limerick FC, so he owns that name. As well as that, he (or that company) owns the names Limerick City and Limerick United (I think). This is why Treaty United have the name they do - because the 'Limerick' variants are not available.

The Markets Field is owned by the LEDP, who rented it to Limerick (at a pretty penny too). I believe Treaty United have an agreement to play there, should they join the first division. I am not sure if Limerick FC have any place to play, or any players, coaching staff, or any kind of structure whatsoever.

What usually happens in situations like this is the 'new' club plays for a couple of seasons under a new name, then they are able to earn/buy the rights to the old (now non-existent) club. This is basically what happened with Limerick 37, as well as Cork City Foras and, I think, one or two others.

O'Sullivan is so stubborn though, he just might not give in on the name at all. To answer your earlier question, the reason we have two applications from Limerick, rather than combining resources, is also O'Sullivan's stubbornness. He invested a lot of money and, from his perspective, got very little back, and even now, when everybody has been burned by him and turned their backs to him, he simply cannot let it go.

He didn't know that (with the possible recent exception of Dundalk) nobody, nobody, who ever invests in a LOI team ever comes away with a profit. You spend and spend and maybe you win some trophies and create some great memories along the way, but at the end, you just have to walk away from it.

Pat O Sullivan doesn't seem to be the smartest business man, I remember when he had the bars in Thomond Park and one person working behind them at half-time with thirsty punters unable to get a beer... Surely a merger with Treaty United and having 50% of a relatively successful business is better than 100% of a business that has nothing other than a brand name

Insect Overlord

colmtheperson wrote: »

Pat O Sullivan doesn't seem to be the smartest business man, I remember when he had the bars in Thomond Park and one person working behind them at half-time with thirsty punters unable to get a beer... Surely a merger with Treaty United and having 50% of a relatively successful business is better than 100% of a business that has nothing other than a brand name

It might make sense for Pat, from his POV, but why would anybody else want to go into a partnership with him at this stage?

somespud

Pat O Sulivan Limerick FC and Pat O Sulivan Masterchefs is not the same person

ShatterProof

A 10 team first division fixture list released today , 9 teams plus 1 TBC

"Athlone Town, Bray Wanderers, Cabinteely, Cobh Ramblers, Cork City, Galway United, Shelbourne, UCD, Wexford – and one team designated as TBC ahead of the outcome of the licensing process later this month, which still involves all candidates."

Of course it the FAI so the actual number of teams will more than likely not be 10.


linky https://www.sseairtricityleague.ie/news/2021-sse-airtricity-first-division-fixture-list-confirmed-/id-3593

johnnyryan89

Pretty sure they said they'll draw up a ten team fixture list and a 12 team fixture list just in case.

Red Silurian

somespud wrote: »

Pat O Sulivan Limerick FC and Pat O Sulivan Masterchefs is not the same person

Ah I did not know that, in a way I'm glad as Pat O Sullivan MasterChef has always been a very nice man in my opinion (I believe he ran a meals on wheels type service in lockdown 1) and what was said about him (I thought) on this thread didn't exactly add up to the person

bocaman

Would be great to see a team from Limerick, either Treaty United or Limerick FC, back in the League

Paddico

Another ego in the LOI and stinging local business at the same time.
Treaty should get their license.

Anyone know what POS put into Limerick FC money wise?

Red Silurian

bocaman wrote: »

Would be great to see a team from Limerick, either Treaty United or Limerick FC, back in the League

I think it would make more sense to go down the route the IRFU did, provincialise the system, make a deal with the Scottish and maybe the Welsh on a professional league, centrally contract players and watch the money roll in

osarusan

osarusan wrote: »

He owns the company behind Limerick FC, so he owns that name. As well as that, he (or that company) owns the names Limerick City and Limerick United (I think). This is why Treaty United have the name they do - because the 'Limerick' variants are not available.

The Markets Field is owned by the LEDP, who rented it to Limerick (at a pretty penny too). I believe Treaty United have an agreement to play there, should they join the first division. I am not sure if Limerick FC have any place to play, or any players, coaching staff, or any kind of structure whatsoever.

What usually happens in situations like this is the 'new' club plays for a couple of seasons under a new name, then they are able to earn/buy the rights to the old (now non-existent) club. This is basically what happened with Limerick 37, as well as Cork City Foras and, I think, one or two others.

O'Sullivan is so stubborn though, he just might not give in on the name at all. To answer your earlier question, the reason we have two applications from Limerick, rather than combining resources, is also O'Sullivan's stubbornness. He invested a lot of money and, from his perspective, got very little back, and even now, when everybody has been burned by him and turned their backs to him, he simply cannot let it go.

He didn't know that (with the possible recent exception of Dundalk) nobody, nobody, who ever invests in a LOI team ever comes away with a profit. You spend and spend and maybe you win some trophies and create some great memories along the way, but at the end, you just have to walk away from it.

Limerick FC still have at least two assets I can think of though. Any future transfers of former Limerick FC players may have clauses that give a certain percentage to Limerick FC. So if Paudie O'Connor or Ogbene move clubs (for example) there may be a cut in it for Limerick FC.

Limerick FC also appear to still be running a football academy so again, any players who graduate to professional football will owe a percentage to Limerick FC, since, afaik, underage clubs continue to get a cut of professional footballers contracts throughout their careers, called solidarity payments. https://www.fai.ie/domestic/governance/fifa-solidarity-and-compensation-payments

I think Treaty missed a trick by not calling themselves Thomond and going for the entire of North Munster as their supporter base. Clare and North Tipperary don't associate with the title Treaty as much as they could have with Thomond (which used to include both areas etc).

(I'll be honest, up until Tommy Barrett was announced I had thought they were going by Thomond, so I haven't been following it closely).

Clareman

colmtheperson wrote: »

I think it would make more sense to go down the route the IRFU did, provincialise the system, make a deal with the Scottish and maybe the Welsh on a professional league, centrally contract players and watch the money roll in

The Soccer forum would be a better forum to discuss such topics.

colmtheperson

colmtheperson wrote: »

I think it would make more sense to go down the route the IRFU did, provincialise the system, make a deal with the Scottish and maybe the Welsh on a professional league, centrally contract players and watch the money roll in

While that makes sense in theory, from reading that book about John Delaney's tenure of the FAI, the people running the junior leagues in Ireland (who appear to still back him to some degree) seem unlikely to go for it. The book gives the impression of a lot of lads who care more about their private area of influence than the good of the overall game here. (Easy for a guy on the outside to say that though).

johnnyryan89

colmtheperson wrote: »

I think it would make more sense to go down the route the IRFU did, provincialise the system, make a deal with the Scottish and maybe the Welsh on a professional league, centrally contract players and watch the money roll in

Would never work in a million years.

Jofspring

Paddico wrote: »

Anyone know what POS put into Limerick FC money wise?

Easily €5 million, probably more.

Cookiemunster

colmtheperson wrote: »

I think it would make more sense to go down the route the IRFU did, provincialise the system, make a deal with the Scottish and maybe the Welsh on a professional league, centrally contract players and watch the money roll in

The Scots already have 4 divisions of league football with some very successful professional clubs (you may have heard of one or two of them ;-) ) who would have zero interest in such a proposal. The Welsh have 4 teams in the English league system, two of whom recently played in the PL. Again a non runner.

The football situation in those countries is nothing at all like the situation in rugby. And the money certainly does not roll in in the rugby.

AnonZen

Deleted User wrote: »

Limerick FC still have at least two assets I can think of though. Any future transfers of former Limerick FC players may have clauses that give a certain percentage to Limerick FC. So if Paudie O'Connor or Ogbene move clubs (for example) there may be a cut in it for Limerick FC.

Limerick FC also appear to still be running a football academy so again, any players who graduate to professional football will owe a percentage to Limerick FC, since, afaik, underage clubs continue to get a cut of professional footballers contracts throughout their careers, called solidarity payments. https://www.fai.ie/domestic/governance/fifa-solidarity-and-compensation-payments

This is where I could see the can being kicked down the road by the FAI, at least for another year. Pat has already stated that he had no intention of entering a senior team this year. So they could award a licence to Treaty, while still allowing Limerick FC to compete in the underage.

Although I can imagine there would be more fun and games if Treaty ended up signing a significant portion of the long term Limerick FC underage players.

AnonZen

AnonZen wrote: »

This is where I could see the can being kicked down the road by the FAI, at least for another year. Pat has already stated that he had no intention of entering a senior team this year. So they could award a licence to Treaty, while still allowing Limerick FC to compete in the underage.

Although I can imagine there would be more fun and games if Treaty ended up signing a significant portion of the long term Limerick FC underage players.

The Academy is in theory more valuable than the senior side to some degree, if you can produce a player that plays professional football you are written into their future contracts.

Presumably someone involved in junior football in Limerick can explain how the Limerick FC Academy interacts with the local clubs.

Anyhow, my point is Limerick FC still has decent reasons to continue in some form until the young lads from a few years ago leave professional sport. I remember a few years ago Limerick FC conceded 8 goals to Dundalk on the same night 3 former Limerick FC players played in the Championship (O'Connor, Ogbene and Barry Cotter, iirc). All 3 are unlikely to have big, big careers, but they could still move clubs for reasonably decent figures over the next decade. No idea who else is out there who came through the Limerick FC academy but potentially there's future fees to consider for any of them.

Red Silurian

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think Treaty missed a trick by not calling themselves Thomond and going for the entire of North Munster as their supporter base. Clare and North Tipperary don't associate with the title Treaty as much as they could have with Thomond (which used to include both areas etc).
.

Yes Thomond or Tuadh Mumhan (North Munster) as it is known in old Irish would be excellent, they could even make a deal to play at Thomond Park for free publicity from the rugby crowd

osarusan

Deleted User wrote: »

I think Treaty missed a trick by not calling themselves Thomond and going for the entire of North Munster as their supporter base. Clare and North Tipperary don't associate with the title Treaty as much as they could have with Thomond (which used to include both areas etc).

Treaty United aren't going to gain or lose out on supporters based on their name in my opinion.


Would people really be motivated to attend games by an 'inclusive' name like Thomond? Who feel excluded by the name 'Limerick' or 'Treaty'?


I mean, I can't see anybody who wasn't a Limerick FC supporter being a supporter of the new club either.

johnnyryan89

colmtheperson wrote: »

Yes Thomond or Tuadh Mumhan (North Munster) as it is known in old Irish would be excellent, they could even make a deal to play at Thomond Park for free publicity from the rugby crowd

Why would they ever want to return to Thomond Park again. And it's not really free publicity when you gotta pay to rent the place. It would probably be cheaper to pay a pr company to help you with publicity instead of shelling out for a 26k capacity stadium when you'll possibly have a core support of a few hundred fans.

osarusan wrote: »

Treaty United aren't going to gain or lose out on supporters based on their name in my opinion.


Would people really be motivated to attend games by an 'inclusive' name like Thomond? Who feel excluded by the name 'Limerick' or 'Treaty'?


I mean, I can't see anybody who wasn't a Limerick FC supporter being a supporter of the new club either.

Even the idiots that have stated "I can't support a club that doesn't have the name Limerick in it" will be along after awhile and even faster if the club actually do well.

c.p.w.g.w

Pat O'Sullivan's limerick owe money all over town...last I heard, it was 300,000 owed to different limerick business', also owes the guards 50,000...

And don't get me started on how they treated Sean Russell...

If Pat was involved I won't be getting behind the project, and I'm someone who has been to over 100 away games(Harps, Monaghan & Derry are long fecking days) and been a season ticket for a number of years too...

Red Silurian

osarusan wrote: »

Treaty United aren't going to gain or lose out on supporters based on their name in my opinion.


Would people really be motivated to attend games by an 'inclusive' name like Thomond? Who feel excluded by the name 'Limerick' or 'Treaty'?


I mean, I can't see anybody who wasn't a Limerick FC supporter being a supporter of the new club either.

Yeah but if you're a soccer supporter in Clare, Tip or Kerry you might be more likely to pop the head over the border for a game or 2

osarusan

osarusan wrote: »

Treaty United aren't going to gain or lose out on supporters based on their name in my opinion.


Would people really be motivated to attend games by an 'inclusive' name like Thomond? Who feel excluded by the name 'Limerick' or 'Treaty'?


I mean, I can't see anybody who wasn't a Limerick FC supporter being a supporter of the new club either.

No one I know from Clare or Tipperary is going to support a team called Limerick, sure why would they?

They might support a team called Treaty but think Thomond would be an easier sell. It probably isn't a huge number of potential fans but it's an easier brand, imo, to sell to a wider group of people.

It was just an aside really, in reality it hardly matters.

johnnyryan89

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No one I know from Clare or Tipperary is going to support a team called Limerick, sure why would they?

They might support a team called Treaty but think Thomond would be an easier sell. It probably isn't a huge number of potential fans but it's an easier brand, imo, to sell to a wider group of people.

It was just an aside really, in reality it hardly matters.

Funny that because there was quite a few coming in from Clare, North Tipp, North Cork and North Kerry for Limerick games. When to away games where you had to stop and pick up lads in Clare when travelling up the M18 or Nenagh when travelling up the M7.

johnnyryan89

johnnyryan89 wrote: »

Funny that because there was quite a few coming in from Clare, North Tipp, North Cork and North Kerry for Limerick games. When to away games where you had to stop and pick up lads in Clare when travelling up the M18 or Nenagh when travelling up the M7.

Fair play if so, I've never met them at Limerick FC matches but I am a fair-weather supporter (and will continue in the same vein for Treaty, I guess).

A2LUE42

Deleted User wrote: »

No one I know from Clare or Tipperary is going to support a team called Limerick, sure why would they?

They might support a team called Treaty but think Thomond would be an easier sell. It probably isn't a huge number of potential fans but it's an easier brand, imo, to sell to a wider group of people.

It was just an aside really, in reality it hardly matters.

I know quite a few from Clare and Tipperary who have supported Limerick FC through all the various name changes over the years, They are the only senior team in the region. There are several junior clubs from Clare and Tipperary who play in the Limerick leagues and whose best underage players' footballing ambitions are to play Kennedy cup for Limerick. A well-run club, with even moderate success, will attract supporters, whatever the name is.

Jofspring

Ya there was even a supporters group called Banner Blues. You'd be surprised with how many people supported Limerick FC from other counties and a huge amount from Limerick county and not just the city. Nearly had better support coming from the county to be honest.

mastershake

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Pat O'Sullivan's limerick owe money all over town...last I heard, it was 300,000 owed to different limerick business', also owes the guards 50,000...

And don't get me started on how they treated Sean Russell...

If Pat was involved I won't be getting behind the project, and I'm someone who has been to over 100 away games(Harps, Monaghan & Derry are long fecking days) and been a season ticket for a number of years too...

If it is the case that Pat O'Sullivan owes such money then why hasn't the club being wound up yet? Its over a year since the club went through the courts during an examinership process with depts of over €490,000 and then there was a settlement with the FAI. My question is how is the company Limerick FC still operating.

c.p.w.g.w

mastershake wrote: »

If it is the case that Pat O'Sullivan owes such money then why hasn't the club being wound up yet? Its over a year since the club went through the courts during an examinership process with depts of over €490,000 and then there was a settlement with the FAI. My question is how is the company Limerick FC still operating.

The club has zero assets, is why nothing has happened as far as I can see

mastershake

Sure but it would have to mean that Limerick FC are still paying or have paid their debtors other wise the court would have issued a closing order. The company trades as Munster Football Club limited. Still can't understand how they're still able to operate.

Red Silurian

A2LUE42 wrote: »

I know quite a few from Clare and Tipperary who have supported Limerick FC through all the various name changes over the years, They are the only senior team in the region. There are several junior clubs from Clare and Tipperary who play in the Limerick leagues and whose best underage players' footballing ambitions are to play Kennedy cup for Limerick. A well-run club, with even moderate success, will attract supporters, whatever the name is.

We call them expatriates

AnonZen

Larry Bass has stepped down as Cabo chairman, and the Limerick FC Independent Supporters group are implying it has something to do with Limerick. *shrug*

Paddico

Any players signed for Treaty United

osarusan

Paddico wrote: »

Any players signed for Treaty United

Not that I know of. They're in limbo at the moment as they haven't been awarded a licence for LOI football.


Can't really start signing until that, although they did sign Tommy Barrett as manager. I think he has already said somewhere that the team will be mainly amateur this season, so it would be a load of local lads I suppose.

johnnyryan89

Probably be ULs Collingwood Cup team that's signed to play this season. We've got a few decent players kicking about that are locals or locally based because of work such as Conor Ellis and Sean Russell.

johnnyryan89

https://twitter.com/AherneMike95/status/1363212469800468484

Men's senior football returns to Limerick. Hopefully now that it's actually official we might see some announcements on a squad.

Jofspring

Probably looking at a few top junior players locally. A lot ex-Limerick underage.

mastershake

Fantastic news for all concerned. If football is to prosper in Ireland the third city needs to start producing players who can some day go on and represent in international football. The only way to do this is to provide a senior football outlet in the region. Hopefully when fans get allowed back in there is a decent backing of the team. Mens and Women's.

As for the squad next year. I presume it will be local junior players only.Unlikely to be competitive next year and they could take heavy beatings from Shelbourne, Galway and Bray who are all strong. Nice to play Cork and Cobh and have some rivalries going again.

Anyone in the know on decent junior players available? Clyde O'Connell, Jason Hughes, Conor Ellis and Shane Tracey. Is Joel Coustrain available these days? Was playing with Athlone Town last I heard.

johnnyryan89

mastershake wrote: »

Fantastic news for all concerned. If football is to prosper in Ireland the third city needs to start producing players who can some day go on and represent in international football. The only way to do this is to provide a senior football outlet in the region. Hopefully when fans get allowed back in there is a decent backing of the team. Mens and Women's.

As for the squad next year. I presume it will be local junior players only.Unlikely to be competitive next year and they could take heavy beatings from Shelbourne, Galway and Bray who are all strong. Nice to play Cork and Cobh and have some rivalries going again.

Anyone in the know on decent junior players available? Clyde O'Connell, Jason Hughes, Conor Ellis and Shane Tracey. Is Joel Coustrain available these days? Was playing with Athlone Town last I heard.

Hopefully he's nowhere near the squad. Must be turning 30 and was sent off for assaulting a steward up in Sligo.

Jofspring

mastershake wrote: »

Fantastic news for all concerned. If football is to prosper in Ireland the third city needs to start producing players who can some day go on and represent in international football. The only way to do this is to provide a senior football outlet in the region. Hopefully when fans get allowed back in there is a decent backing of the team. Mens and Women's.

As for the squad next year. I presume it will be local junior players only.Unlikely to be competitive next year and they could take heavy beatings from Shelbourne, Galway and Bray who are all strong. Nice to play Cork and Cobh and have some rivalries going again.

Anyone in the know on decent junior players available? Clyde O'Connell, Jason Hughes, Conor Ellis and Shane Tracey. Is Joel Coustrain available these days? Was playing with Athlone Town last I heard.

Joel signed for Regional.

I'd say your list is pretty close there to who will be signed.

osarusan

There were a few half-decent players knocking around in the final season. Lee Devitt is a name I remember. Tomas O'Connor as well. Andrew Foley...Adam Foley?

ShatterProof

Congrats to all. Would love to be in the away end on April 23rd, but will be in home end as soon as we’re allowed.

johnnyryan89

osarusan wrote: »

There were a few half-decent players knocking around in the final season. Lee Devitt is a name I remember. Tomas O'Connor as well. Andrew Foley...Adam Foley?

Devitt has signed back with Cobh for this season, and don't think Adam Foley has signed with anyone since leaving Harps. O'Connor might still be with UCD.