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General British politics discussion thread
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Joe_ Public wrote: »So have i got this right, the middle classes, whoever they are, should abandon the labour party and its working class roots (interesting twist on the usual purge stuff, i have to admit, a kind of reverse purge almost) because some right wing reactionary commentators of varying relevance have appointed themselves as the spokespeople for the working classes?
Not BECAUSE "some right-wing reactionary commentators have appointed themselves as the spokespeople for the working classes" but because the natural bond between the lowest paid sections of society and those whose world view encompasses both the desire for a compassionate civilised and socialised society and a wish to advance up their chosen career path via education has been severed.
The rantings of Burchill, O'Neill, Northcott et al just make the break easier.
What is very clear to me (having lived in England for years before returning home during the Celtic Tiger) is that the seepage in support from Labour to Conservative has not in the main come from where it might have been expected, ie from the newly or recently empowered educated working classes in white collar middle class jobs. Many of them are resolutely statist and believe in such things as the Welfare state, racial harmony, inclusiveness, sex and gender equality, and (often) animal rights, concern for the planet, and "plant-based diets". They have stuck with Labour.
Instead the drop in support comes from the poorer end of the Labour party constituency. People pissed off with the failure of the welfare state to improve their lot, resentment at the disappearance of their traditional livelihoods thanks to technology and automation and (to a VERY limited degree) cheap immigrant labour.
These people are often inherently nationalist, self reliant and see the Conservative mindset of getting up and doing it for yourself as a more reliable route to riches (comparatively speaking) than the "Wait for the management committee to decide when it's your turn for progress" that is typically associated with the public sector, currently the real bedrock of Labour support.
These two traditional wings of the Labour Party are now so at odds with each other that it is clear they should admit they are not meant to belong together and should just split. It would be better all round.Joe_ Public wrote: »It's been done before anyway. Isn't that why we have the lib dems and, for a wet weekend, change uk?
Whether it is the Lib Dems in their current configuration that assumes the mantle of "natural party of opposition" to the Conservatives or whether it is a party slightly modified to accommodate a newly branded section of the electorate doesn't really matter. What matters is there is a huge latent body of support for a party that is not the Conservatives but which is not the "Labour family" either.
I am sure there is a large section of the electorate that is unvalued by the Conservatives, unwanted by Labour and under represented by the lib Dems that could potentially coalesce and challenge the Tories with a slightly different message than that of Labour.
These realignments in British politics typically take place once in 100 years. We're overdue one at this stage.0 -
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Snickers Man wrote: »Not BECAUSE "some right-wing reactionary commentators have appointed themselves as the spokespeople for the working classes" but because the natural bond between the lowest paid sections of society and those whose world view encompasses both the desire for a compassionate civilised and socialised society and a wish to advance up their chosen career path via education has been severed.
The rantings of Burchill, O'Neill, Northcott et al just make the break easier.
What is very clear to me (having lived in England for years before returning home during the Celtic Tiger) is that the seepage in support from Labour to Conservative has not in the main come from where it might have been expected, ie from the newly or recently empowered educated working classes in white collar middle class jobs. Many of them are resolutely statist and believe in such things as the Welfare state, racial harmony, inclusiveness, sex and gender equality, and (often) animal rights, concern for the planet, and "plant-based diets". They have stuck with Labour.
Instead the drop in support comes from the poorer end of the Labour party constituency. People pissed off with the failure of the welfare state to improve their lot, resentment at the disappearance of their traditional livelihoods thanks to technology and automation and (to a VERY limited degree) cheap immigrant labour.
These people are often inherently nationalist, self reliant and see the Conservative mindset of getting up and doing it for yourself as a more reliable route to riches (comparatively speaking) than the "Wait for the management committee to decide when it's your turn for progress" that is typically associated with the public sector, currently the real bedrock of Labour support.
These two traditional wings of the Labour Party are now so at odds with each other that it is clear they should admit they are not meant to belong together and should just split. It would be better all round.
Whether it is the Lib Dems in their current configuration that assumes the mantle of "natural party of opposition" to the Conservatives or whether it is a party slightly modified to accommodate a newly branded section of the electorate doesn't really matter. What matters is there is a huge latent body of support for a party that is not the Conservatives but which is not the "Labour family" either.
I am sure there is a large section of the electorate that is unvalued by the Conservatives, unwanted by Labour and under represented by the lib Dems that could potentially coalesce and challenge the Tories with a slightly different message than that of Labour.
These realignments in British politics typically take place once in 100 years. We're overdue one at this stage.
I'm not entirely dismissive of your conclusions, but i see some very obvious flaws in the rationale. The poor abandoning labour in droves to prop up the tories in labours old redoubts is a popular refrain, but it's too simplistic and not borne out by the data. We know the tories 2019 majority was built on older, often retired voters who own their own homes and live comfortable, well off lives. They are by no stretch of the imagination poor. In fact, the only income group in which labour finished ahead was among the poorest section of the electorate. The median age of voters is rising by the year, people who are relatively well off and attracted by the tories low tax creed - blissfully unconcerned that this only increases the bill for the generations coming after them - is the bedrock of the tories maintaining its grip on power.
The poorest, if they bother at all, are still more likely to vote labour, many of them living in cities in some of the uks most deprived areas. And now it is these people who labour, in its rush to embrace this whole poor/working class/anti woke agenda thing, risks taking for granted. In the recent elections labour lost as many votes to the greens as it lost to the tories and there is an important lesson in that if they are willing to heed it.
As for political paradigm shake ups or whatever, i dont know, doesn't seem likely without a new voting system and that seems a bit chicken and egg the way things stand at the minute. But i'm fairly certain what labour needs is a unifier not a split which imo would absolutely ensure no chance of power as long as there is fptp and the tories have pretty much no opposition on the right.0 -
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