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Fiat Chrysler and Peugeot to merge

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  • Registered Users Posts: 73,388 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    The Giulia has been selling against BMW 3 series since its launch. It's a niche product, selling tens of thousands to the BMWs hundreds of thousands.

    Likewise the Maserati Ghibli vs. the 5 series.

    Niche products don’t make money unless they’re high margin or if the development costs are saved. Is the answer to that to do a Saab on it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 555 ✭✭✭Philb76


    The giulia is better looking than the 3series and if I was offered a free choice it would be the alfa but if it was my own money it would be the 3 series seems to be how most look at alfas and I've always admired people that buy them where as I would bottle it


  • Registered Users Posts: 844 ✭✭✭GeneHunt


    Fiat Chrysler has started 90% of planned investments in Italy: executive

    MILAN (Reuters) - Fiat Chrysler (FCHA.MI) has already started 90% of the investments earmarked for Italy, the auto maker’s Chief Operating Officer for the EMEA region Pietro Gorlier said on Monday.

    FCA - which is finalizing merger talks with France’s Peugeot owner PSA (PEUP.PA) to try to create the world’s fourth-largest carmaker - announced last year it would spend 5 billion euros ($5.5 billion) in Italy up to 2021.

    The plan is aimed at helping the group launch its first electric and hybrid models and to fill capacity utilisation at its Italian plants.

    Gorlier said that despite unfounded speculation, FCA has “consistently confirmed the plan through action, with no delays”.

    “Around 90% of investments have been kicked off,” he said, according to the text of a speech he gave at the Italian car industry association ANFIA assembly, in the FCA plant in Melfi, southern Italy.

    As part of its 5 billion euro plan, FCA will launch from next year its full-electric 500 small car and hybrid and electrified models of its Maserati, Jeep and Alfa Romeo brands.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-fiat-chrysler-investments-gorlier/fiat-chrysler-has-started-90-of-planned-investments-in-italy-executive-idUSKBN1XZ1XH

    So the merger is getting close to the finish it seems, looking like some good news for the Italian auto industry.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,388 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    The Giulia has been selling against BMW 3 series since its launch. It's a niche product, selling tens of thousands to the BMWs hundreds of thousands.

    Likewise the Maserati Ghibli vs. the 5 series.

    The only problem being that it costs just as much to develop a New Guilia as it does a new 3 Series - hence making the business case for the Guilia far far less enticing for investors. Same for the Ghibli. At a time when the desperately need new products (BMW seem to launch something new every other month).


  • Registered Users Posts: 844 ✭✭✭GeneHunt


    An article on "The Wall Street Journal"
    Fiat Chrysler and PSA Forge Ahead With Merger Plan Despite GM Lawsuit GM lawsuit
    faces uphill battle, although some financial analysts have said it could slow down merger talks
    An worker inspects Peugeot 3008 compact SUVs on a PSA Group assembly line in Sochaux, France; Fiat Chrysler and PSA are moving forward with merger plans despite GM’s move to block them in court.
    By Eric Sylvers in Milan and Nick Kostov in Paris
    Dec. 1, 2019 7:00 am ET

    Fiat Chrysler Automobiles NV and Peugeot maker PSA Group of France are moving forward on their planned $50 billion merger in coming weeks, brushing aside concerns that a recent lawsuit by U.S. rival General Motors Co. could threaten the auto industry’s biggest deal in decades.
    The two companies wrote to their employees last week to say negotiations were progressing and they aimed to sign a memorandum of understanding soon. More than 50 people have been working on the merger project since Fiat Chrysler and PSA announced their deal at the end of October, the companies told employees in an internal document, a copy of which was viewed by The Wall Street Journal.
    How do you think a Fiat Chrysler and PSA merger could affect the auto industry? Join the conversation below.
    Fiat Chrysler and PSA updated their employees days after GM filed a racketeering suit alleging that Fiat Chrysler bribed U.S. union negotiators to gain a competitive advantage during the collective bargaining process in 2011 and 2015.
    The GM suit directly accuses Sergio Marchionne, Fiat Chrysler’s longtime chief executive who died last year, of authorizing bribes as the car maker sought to gain an advantage over GM by lowering its own labor costs.
    While legal experts say GM’s lawsuit faces an uphill battle, some financial analysts have said the accusations could slow down negotiations between Fiat Chrysler and PSA.
    Fiat Chrysler has denied the allegations and called them meritless.
    The merger partners have discussed the lawsuit, but it is unlikely to throw the deal off track, according to people on both sides of the talks. PSA agrees with Fiat Chrysler’s position that the claim is meritless, some of these people said, adding that lawyers and other specialists had examined GM’s claim for the French side. PSA would likely be supportive of any countermove, such as a countersuit, that Fiat Chrysler could choose to make against GM, these people said.
    If the contention drags on past the closing of the deal, PSA Chief Executive Carlos Tavares would be well qualified to deal with it, these people said. A countersuit from Fiat Chrysler would likely lead to a discussion between the two car makers, and Mr. Tavares developed a good working relationship with GM Chief Executive Mary Barra when buying the U.S. company’s European business in 2017.
    The accusations surprised both car makers, and people close to them have suggested that the lawsuit is an aggressive attempt by GM to gain leverage over Fiat Chrysler, either through financial damages or by making the merger harder to achieve. Fiat Chrysler has long sought a partner to help spread out the cost of developing new vehicles, a push that has become more pressing as global auto sales have peaked.
    The GM suit relates to a long-running federal probe into corruption between leaders at the United Auto Workers union and labor-relations executives at Fiat Chrysler. UAW President Gary Jones stepped aside from his role in early November, days after federal prosecutors charged one of his top aides with embezzling union dues. Fiat Chrysler has said the wrongdoing was perpetrated by a small group of individuals acting in their own interest.
    “The timing of the suit has everything to do with revelations from the U.S. government’s ongoing investigation and nothing to do with the proposed FCA-PSA merger,” GM said in a statement.
    Shareholders in Fiat Chrysler and PSA will each collectively own 50% of the new entity that will emerge from the merger, which is expected to close by the end of 2020. The new company will produce almost as many cars in Europe as Volkswagen AG , the continent’s largest car maker, and will have a large presence in the U.S. and South America. Mr. Tavares will have the same role with an initial five-year term.
    In a positive sign for negotiators, unions representing PSA workers have generally welcomed the deal. At a PSA European council meeting last week, 15 trade unions gave a favorable opinion on the merger, while one trade union signaled its opposition to the deal and another abstained, the car maker said.
    The message to Fiat Chrysler and Peugeot employees called the memorandum of understanding “the formal document that signals the willingness of both companies to work together to create a 50/50 merger.” The negotiation process is being overseen by Doug Ostermann, Fiat Chrysler’s group treasurer and global head of business development, and Olivier Bourges, PSA’s executive vice president for program and strategy groups. The two have established nine “workstream teams” to work on the negotiations, the document said.
    Fiat Chrysler and PSA told employees that the two companies would remain competitors until the merger is completed.

    —Nora Naughton contributed to this article.
    Write to Eric Sylvers at eric.sylvers@wsj.com and Nick Kostov at Nick.Kostov@wsj.com


    https://www.wsj.com/articles/fiat-chrysler-and-psa-forge-ahead-with-merger-plan-despite-gm-lawsuit-11575201600?reflink=share_mobilewebshare&shareToken=st17d7f9d84dd5473ea2e919e3593948f0


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,052 ✭✭✭Tuco88


    Whats Ford up to? The seem to be just to be heading down the road of light commercial vehicles only.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,388 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Tuco88 wrote: »
    Whats Ford up to? The seem to be just to be heading down the road of light commercial vehicles only.

    Seem to lack any direction and making lacklustre poor quality cars. Overpriced drivel like the EcoSport, Edge and now that awful looking Puma thing. The style, value and driving dynamics seem to be gone.
    Apparently the commercial vehicles are very profitable though as they are for PSA.


  • Registered Users Posts: 73,388 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    The Fiesta is selling quite strongly across Europe.
    The rest of the lineup is a bit meh. All they need is a new Kuga model to get more volume. That Puma thing will probably be the next big thing for the type of people that used to buy Focuss.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,615 ✭✭✭ba_barabus


    road_high wrote: »
    The only problem being that it costs just as much to develop a New Guilia as it does a new 3 Series - hence making the business case for the Guilia far far less enticing for investors. Same for the Ghibli. At a time when the desperately need new products (BMW seem to launch something new every other month).

    To put the whole Alfa issue into perspective look at it this way, Lancia sell more Yysilons in Italy then Alfa do in the entire world.

    Lancia are a one model range, and that model is ancient.


  • Registered Users Posts: 844 ✭✭✭GeneHunt


    ba_barabus wrote: »
    To put the whole Alfa issue into perspective look at it this way, Lancia sell more Yysilons in Italy then Alfa do in the entire world.

    Lancia are a one model range, and that model is ancient.

    Jayzus, that's a shocking comparison, is that true, can you link it. It's a shame to see Lancia with only one model range now. The Fiat 500, Panda and the Ypsilon are all ancient, it looks like Fiat Chrysler did very little with developing replacement cars in there car ranges, I know it's all down to finance, but there car ranges have been drying up for same time. The Alfa Romeo Mito, the Fiat Punto weren't replaced, and that's just two to name as examples. These areas should still be selling well, It will be hard to reclaim lost ground for some of these brands.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,615 ✭✭✭ba_barabus


    GeneHunt wrote: »
    Jayzus, that's a shocking comparison, is that true, can you link it..
    I made a mistake when I said 'world', it should be 'Europe' but it's still dreadful.

    https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/lancia-passes-fiat-ownership-landmark-no-celebration-storied-brand
    ANE wrote:
    Lancia sold more cars in Italy in the first nine months than Alfa Romeo sold in the whole of the European Union, according to industry association ACEA. Lancia's Italian sales rose 29 percent to 45,783 through September, while Alfa Romeo's EU sales fell 42 percent to 39,114.

    Some more figures and comparisons here

    2Pk1UwA.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 105 ✭✭wcooba


    GeneHunt wrote: »
    Jayzus, that's a shocking comparison, is that true, can you link it. It's a shame to see Lancia with only one model range now. The Fiat 500, Panda and the Ypsilon are all ancient, it looks like Fiat Chrysler did very little with developing replacement cars in there car ranges, I know it's all down to finance, but there car ranges have been drying up for same time. The Alfa Romeo Mito, the Fiat Punto weren't replaced, and that's just two to name as examples. These areas should still be selling well, It will be hard to reclaim lost ground for some of these brands.

    There is not much point in developing replacements if whole segment of small, cheap and cheerful city cars is heading for extinction due to EU overregulation (both emissions but also mandatory safety equipment):
    https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/analysis-it-end-city-car


  • Registered Users Posts: 73,388 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    Furthermore, Fiats niche in the market has been filled in the 15 years they’ve been twiddling their thumbs.
    They have the 500. That’s about it.
    The Ducato is probably their best product, that’s already a PSA joint venture.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,615 ✭✭✭ba_barabus


    colm_mcm wrote: »
    Furthermore, Fiats niche in the market has been filled in the 15 years they’ve been twiddling their thumbs.
    They have the 500. That’s about it.
    The Ducato is probably their best product, that’s already a PSA joint venture.
    I like the Tipo but they even managed to feck that up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,388 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    GeneHunt wrote: »
    Jayzus, that's a shocking comparison, is that true, can you link it. It's a shame to see Lancia with only one model range now. The Fiat 500, Panda and the Ypsilon are all ancient, it looks like Fiat Chrysler did very little with developing replacement cars in there car ranges, I know it's all down to finance, but there car ranges have been drying up for same time. The Alfa Romeo Mito, the Fiat Punto weren't replaced, and that's just two to name as examples. These areas should still be selling well, It will be hard to reclaim lost ground for some of these brands.

    When you don't invest in new models you're on a hiding to nothing. All the top sellers have one thing in common- a constant stream of new and fresh models- VW, Hyundai, Toyota, Peugeot etc have something new regularly to keep things going. Fiat on the other have had nothing in at least 3 years. Fiat will be dead as a marque soon if they keep this up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 73,388 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    The most logical thing in my mind would be to keep Fiat as a commercial vehicles brand, scrap all models bar the 500, and scrap any notions of Alfa Romeo being a BMW rival, and make them the SEAT of the group for want of a better comparison(SEAT were supposed to be the Alfa Romeo of the VW group back in the day)


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,388 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    That’s probably not a bad idea. Make Alfa more mainstream, cheaper with a sales volume to support the investment for new models. The current approach where they’re as expensive as BMWs isn’t working


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Its the platform and tooling that's the really expensive part when developing new cars, I assume that's why Fiat needed a takeover , so expect a whole load of new fiats ,or probably same names but all new ....in 2 it 3 years , like Opel ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 844 ✭✭✭GeneHunt


    FCA & PSA agree binding merger in $50 billion deal


    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2019/1218/1101844-fiat-chrysler-peugeot-deal/


  • Registered Users Posts: 844 ✭✭✭GeneHunt


    The new combined company name for the merged companies of PSA & FCA is Stellantic!

    https://uk.motor1.com/news/434186/stellantic-fca-groupe-psa-merger/


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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,834 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Stellantis which sounds a bit less like an updated Titanic but is still an utterly surreal name.


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Sounds like a weird mix of Stellar and Atlantis.
    I suppose we'll get used to it.

    stellantis-lead.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 844 ✭✭✭GeneHunt


    The next-generation of FCA Small Cars To Use PSA CMP platform

    https://www.motor1.com/news/441394/fca-small-cars-move-psa-platform/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭i57dwun4yb1pt8


    Stellantis ,

    ffs seriously , its like a car make Alan Partridge would drive


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,615 ✭✭✭ba_barabus


    Stellantis ,

    ffs seriously , its like a car make Alan Partridge would drive
    Something made up kind of like Luxury EXports to the US or something.

    MistyFrayedCanary-poster.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭i57dwun4yb1pt8


    ba_barabus wrote: »
    Something made up kind of like Luxury EXports to the US or something.

    MistyFrayedCanary-poster.jpg

    AH - HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


  • Registered Users Posts: 844 ✭✭✭GeneHunt


    The merger is still going ahead, but they are restructuring the terms of the merger to conserve cash...


    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/0915/1165267-psa-fca-tweak-merger-deal/


  • Registered Users Posts: 844 ✭✭✭GeneHunt




  • Registered Users Posts: 844 ✭✭✭GeneHunt


    And here's an artircle from yesterday, relating to the future of some of the other brands

    https://www.autoblog.com/2021/01/03/chrysler-brand-axed-under-stallantis/?guccounter=1


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,862 ✭✭✭RobAMerc


    jesus h christ, every time the name Fiat or FCA is mentioned here there is a shed load of "car enthustiasts" on here to sh*t all over them and their products with pretty much 0 real understanding of wtf they are talking about.

    Fiat have the brand new 500e which is a truly top class product, Alfa have the Stelvio, Gulietta Tonale (2021), Maserati a bunch too - proper, interesting alternatives to Germans and at least 20times better than the total crap box Avensis that have lads crying in their tea over here on boards or whaking off coz the Camery is coming back ( another boring sh*t box too dull to care about )

    I think if any of you truly gave a crap about motoring and cars you'd be less inclined to ring your hands and try show your motoring knowledge by crapping on the great european motoring brands, and instead be hopeful these brands can survive their slump and use the current move to EV to morph back into the great innovators they once were and bring that innovation into the 21st century


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