"Man Up" campaign by SafeIreland

Galwayguy35 · 13-11-2013 5:35pm #1

Not too keen on the wording of this, or the idea that if men saw a woman in trouble that we need to be reminded to help her.

Festy · 13-11-2013 5:52pm

Well, after seeing the rape thread in the LL I don't think I'd bothering go out of my way to help a woman in distress. You know, just in case I'd rape her or something :rolleyes:

Newaglish · 13-11-2013 6:54pm

In Ireland, nearly 8,000 women and over 3,000 children looked for support from a domestic violence support service in just one year. This is a horrific statistic.

This means that at least 8,000 men were assaulting, raping or bullying women and children in that year.

This is not just a horrific statistic. This is a horrific crime.

From their website. What an epic fail.

wexie · 13-11-2013 6:57pm

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Not too keen on the wording of this, or the idea that if men saw a woman in trouble that we need to be reminded to help her.

I was listening to it on the radio earlier and felt.....I don't know, not sure if insulted is the right word but it didn't sit right.

It's a worthwhile cause etc. but there seemed to be too many assumptions on behalf of those of us that aren't abusers, bullies etc. for my liking.

Gran Hermano · 13-11-2013 6:59pm

Newaglish wrote: »

From their website. What an epic fail.

Great to read we no longer have domestic violence in lesbian relationships nor do we have women attacking/abusing men or children.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater · 13-11-2013 7:01pm

If it stops one assault won't it be worth it?

wexie · 13-11-2013 7:01pm

Gran Hermano wrote: »

Great to read we no longer have domestic violence in lesbian relationships nor do we have women attacking/abusing men or children.

Was the first thing my wife said : not all domestic abuse is by men (she did her thesis on female (sexual) abusers.

Gran Hermano · 13-11-2013 7:02pm

deccurley wrote: »

If it stops one assault won't it be worth it?

I would prefer if it did so without the misandry.

clairefontaine · 13-11-2013 7:20pm

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Not too keen on the wording of this, or the idea that if men saw a woman in trouble that we need to be reminded to help her.

I just had a look at the website. It appears to have its heart in the right place. However, once again, takes a superficial grasp at the problem.

If men are acting out, or violent etc, then the men need help. Doesn't effectively calling an abuser a pussy make things worse? Doesn't it further the feelings do shame and alienation which lead to violence?

Wouldn't a more productive and effective solution be to reach out to those who are in the throes of such turmoil they are behaving violently and abusively?

Carlos Orange · 13-11-2013 7:28pm

clairefontaine wrote: »

I just had a look at the website. It appears to have its heart in the right place.

I guess but they strike me as just another organisation that looks like they would be shocked and horrified if they discovered that about 50% of children grew up to be men.

clairefontaine · 13-11-2013 7:33pm

psinno wrote: »

I guess but they strike me as just another organisation that looks like they would be shocked and horrified if they discovered that about 50% of children grew up to be men.

It's true. Or that many parents are abused by their children.

It's a myopic view of aggression.

LOTD · 13-11-2013 7:47pm

From don't be that guy or man up, it's like guys have to be reminded to do the right and honest thing, slogans don't stop or start serious crime. These initiatives and campaigns are well meaning but can come across as condensing.

13-11-2013 8:09pm

There was a pretty discussion about this a while back - lots of people were very annoyed by it.

A Primal Nut · 13-11-2013 8:15pm

Newaglish wrote: »

From their website. What an epic fail.

They've changed it now to "7,797 women looked for safety from assault, rape or bullying by men in one year in Ireland.

That means at least 7,797 men in our communities were assaulting, raping or bullying women".

ted1 · 13-11-2013 8:18pm

A Primal Nut wrote: »

They've changed it now to "7,797 women looked for safety from assault, rape or bullying by men in one year in Ireland.

That means at least 7,797 men in our communities were assaulting, raping or bullying women".

Or the same man has had 7,797 victims

clairefontaine · 13-11-2013 8:20pm

ted1 wrote: »

Or the same man has had 7,797 victims

The numbers are assumed, not examined.

It makes it look like unprofessional propeganda, even if the campaign is credible, they sabotaged themselves with that.

source · 13-11-2013 8:23pm

ted1 wrote: »

Or the same man has had 7,797 victims

He'd be bloody busy, that's 21.36 women a day to abuse, doesn't leave much time for anything else.

Seriously though, getting mightily sick of these kinds of campaigns which seek to put a plaster over a serious issue and expect it to go away. Also the blinkered view that only men abuse being trotted out again really gets my goat.

LOTD · 13-11-2013 8:25pm

clairefontaine wrote: »

The numbers are assumed, not examined.

It makes it look like unprofessional propeganda, even if the campaign is credible, they sabotaged themselves with that.

The number are assumed! that is incredibly reckless, it really undermines the organisation if that's the case.

clairefontaine · 13-11-2013 8:27pm

LOTD wrote: »

The number are assumed! that is incredibly reckless, it really undermines the organisation if that's the case.

It maybe the case that 7000 women report abuse, but that does not necessarily equate to 7000 men abusing.

Big old jump of a conclusion.

I've seen this manipulative tactic on much activism sites and arguments from woman's activism and men's.

GalwayGuy2 · 13-11-2013 8:30pm

Hmm, I don't think their hearts are in the right place. It's blantant that their framing abuse as man versus woman, and don't care if men are abused.

Also, I could do without the neo-Chivalry:

Most men celebrate and respect women

I understand what they're trying to do, but it really toeing the line of chivalry.

Also, some of the sighns of abuse are rather vague:

Seem afraid or anxious to please her husband/boyfriend partner.

Agree with everything he says and does and be afraid to correct him.

Talk about his temper, jealousy, anger or possessiveness.

Have bruises or injuries often, with the excuse of “accidents.”

Miss work, college, parties or family events without explanation.

Seem controlled and stopped from seeing family and friends.

Rarely go out in public without her husband/boyfriend/partner.

Standman · 13-11-2013 9:33pm

If the majority of victims of domestic violence are women, and the majority of those perpetrators are men, then I can see how this campaign could be justified. It definitely seems to be the generally accepted by an awful lot of people that this is the case, and I personally grew up with that assumption although I couldn't pinpoint exactly where I picked it up from. I suppose it's ingrained in our society that the fact that men are generally bigger and stronger than women means that they can't be victims of domestic violence.

I looked at a couple of the studies concerning domestic violence in Ireland just to get an idea of how it is split by gender, and came across what looks like a contradiction.

In this overview of Irish policy by the Child and Family Research Centre NUIG in 2008, it states that:

"Although widely acknowledged that the majority of victims of domestic violence are women, it is important to recognise that victims can also be men. In a review of international gender-neutral research of domestic violence, McKeon and Kidd (2002) support this position"

This seems to back up the assertion that the majority of victims of DV are women. Wanting to know more, I looked up the referenced article (McKeon and Kidd 2002), which states that:

"With the exception of sexual violence which is overwhelmingly perpetrated by men against women, the results of these studies are fairly consistent in showing that, in approximately half of all intimate relationships where domestic violence occurred in the last year, both partners were mutually violent, with the remainder divided fairly equally between male-only violence and female-only violence
....
In addition, both men and women are about equally likely to initiate domestic violence and seem to give broadly similar reasons for doing so."

Isn’t there a contradiction there or am I misunderstanding something?

Henry9 · 13-11-2013 10:25pm

Standman wrote: »

Isn’t there a contradiction there or am I misunderstanding something?

Nope, you can get any answer you like in a 'study', depending on who you ask and what you ask them.

Davelarson · 13-11-2013 11:37pm

Its the usual feminist man hating crap: 'All men are violent thugs who need to be reminded by Twitter and Upworthy not to rape and beat women.'

Soon we'll be living in a society where boys will be brought up to believe they're bad just for being male.

tommyboy2222 · 13-11-2013 11:40pm

Why have I never heard the term "Woman up" ?

Davelarson · 13-11-2013 11:46pm

tommyboy2222 wrote: »

Why have I never heard the term "Woman up" ?

Because women can only be victims.

clairefontaine · 13-11-2013 11:54pm

tommyboy2222 wrote: »

Why have I never heard the term "Woman up" ?

Because being a woman has no implicit power. Man up exploits the contrivance that being a man is by proving you are not in fact a woman.

It means don't be a pussy. To be a woman is to be lame, ineffective, hysterical. It is ironically more offensive to women in a way, though being used on a campaign used to protect women.

Of course this just follows a very bad habit in Ireland of taking American memes and using them without fully understanding to caring about their contexts ans then stupidly and clumsily applies them to Irish contexts.

Man up. If you are drinking too much and lashing out, seek help.

Woman up. Leave the husband that beats you.

Woman up. Don't let your sons grow up into wife beaters.

Parent up. Love your children.

Children up. Love your parents. Sometimes love means picking up your toys.

It should mean, be that wee bit better. Be brave. Take courage, whomever you are.

Carlos Orange · 14-11-2013 12:08am

clairefontaine wrote: »

Of course this just follows a very bad habit in Ireland of taking American memes and using them without fully understanding to caring about their contexts ans then stupidly and clumsily applies them to Irish contexts.

I don't really get this. Are you talking about the phrase or the use of it in a campaign related to violence against women?

clairefontaine · 14-11-2013 12:09am

psinno wrote: »

I don't really get this. Are you talking about the phrase or the use of it in a campaign related to violence against women?

Both.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 14-11-2013 12:17am

Saw an ad on the Luas over the weekend from this campaign.

I completely dismissed it as I hate that fcuking phrase "Man Up". In my experience the only people that use it are thick, ignorant pricks.

"Man up" is in the same vein as "big boys don't cry". Terrible rubbish.

Carlos Orange · 14-11-2013 12:21am

clairefontaine wrote: »

Both.

The campaign isn't specific to Ireland. It is an American led campaign started about 5 years ago. The phrase doesn't strike me as particularly American.

clairefontaine · 14-11-2013 12:22am

Juan Cold Invoice wrote: »

Saw an ad on the Luas over the weekend from this campaign.

I completely dismissed it as I hate that fcuking phrase "Man Up". In my experience the only people that use it are thick, ignorant pricks.

"Man up" is in the same vein as "big boys don't cry". Terrible rubbish.

If its any consolation I was told to man up when I complained about the lack of air conditioning on a bus this past summer. I'm still. To sure if the driver was being sarcastic.

It basically means shut it and take it on the chin. Stop whining like a girl.

clairefontaine · 14-11-2013 12:25am

psinno wrote: »

The campaign isn't specific to Ireland. It is an American led campaign started about 5 years ago. The phrase doesn't strike me as particularly American.

But is a safe IRELAND campaign? I've never heard of it in the US.

Man up is an American phrase that evidently has been imported.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 14-11-2013 12:31am

Indeed. But it just plays up the stereotype forced on young men by society that they must be stoic and keep a lot of their thoughts to themselves.

I'd hate to be a teenager again, I don't think there was such a negative attitude towards young men when I was a teenager 10-15 years ago.

clairefontaine · 14-11-2013 12:33am

Juan Cold Invoice wrote: »

Indeed. But it just plays up the stereotype forced on young men by society that they must be stoic and keep a lot of their thoughts to themselves.

I'd hate to be a teenager again, I don't think there was such a negative attitude towards young men when I was a teenager 10-15 years ago.

The socialisation starts even younger. I've heard teachers coach six and seven year old boys on how to sit on their feelings and be little men.

Davelarson · 14-11-2013 12:38am

Juan Cold Invoice wrote: »

Indeed. But it just plays up the stereotype forced on young men by society that they must be stoic and keep a lot of their thoughts to themselves.

I'd hate to be a teenager again, I don't think there was such a negative attitude towards young men when I was a teenager 10-15 years ago.

Ultimately though, these campaigns and the anti-male rhetoric of many feminists will be counter-productive. We'll have a society with an awful lot of angry alienated young men wandering around trying to articulate their anger.

Festy · 14-11-2013 1:22am

Juan Cold Invoice wrote: »

Saw an ad on the Luas over the weekend from this campaign.

I completely dismissed it as I hate that fcuking phrase "Man Up". In my experience the only people that use it are thick, ignorant pricks.

"Man up" is in the same vein as "big boys don't cry". Terrible rubbish.

and they wonder why Ireland has one of the highest suicide rates in Europe among young males, seriously people in this country make me so ****ing angry :mad:

Such an ignorant and backward country we live in.

clairefontaine · 14-11-2013 1:33am

Davelarson wrote: »

Ultimately though, these campaigns and the anti-male rhetoric of many feminists will be counter-productive. We'll have a society with an awful lot of angry alienated young men wandering around trying to articulate their anger.

Or indeed taking it out on wives and children. Oh dear, hoisted on their own petard. Actually causing part of the very problem they are trying to solve.

Galwayguy35 · 14-11-2013 5:53am

It was on the radio I heard it yesterday, a woman being interviewed telling the male listeners to intervene if they see a woman being hassled on a night out etc, as if any decent guy (and thats 99.9% of men) is just going to stand by and finish his pint if someone nearby is in trouble.

Then at the end yer man Decco from Fair City comes on with his words of wisdom " time to man up".

The whole interview annoyed the fook out of me TBH.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 14-11-2013 10:24am

They should really know that if they want people to listen to what they have to say they should engage them in a meaningful way, not talk down to them.

Newaglish · 14-11-2013 11:50am

I heard them talking on the radio about some kind of survey that they did that discovered that men didn't have an awareness of domestic violence i.e. what is is or the fact that it happens.

I can't for the life of me find the details of this survey (i.e. questions and results). Does anyone know where I might? Judging by their previous forays into taking conclusions from statistical data, I'm fairly sure it's not going to be the most robust analysis ever.

py2006 · 14-11-2013 12:51pm

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

I understand what they're trying to do, but it really toeing the line of chivalry.

Also, some of the sighns of abuse are rather vague:
Agree with everything he says and does and be afraid to correct him.

Vice versa is the norm for the majority of married men I know!

py2006 · 14-11-2013 1:12pm

This old chestnut really infuriates me. We have spoken about this before on Boards.

It is far easier both in terms of support and social acceptance for women to come forward and seek help. Which is fantastic for them. But in NO way gives accurate figures and therefore adds fuel to the myth that all (some will concede most) of victims are women.
A lot of feminists people believe that in no way can a man be a victim of bullying, harrassment, abuse (physical, mental and sexual), discrimination and objectification.
If a man speaks about the above he is either a) dismissing / making fun of female victims or b) he needs to, 'MAN UP' and or 'GROW A PAIR'.

If the avenues and social acceptance for men to seek help where as widespread, we would not see campaigns about domestic violence and abuse in general being targetted specifically to women.

To be frank it is disgusting to ignore victims of abuse based on stereotypes.

ancapailldorcha · 14-11-2013 2:20pm

Festy wrote: »

Such an ignorant and backward country we live in.

I hate when people say this. It's not just Ireland, though this campaign obviously is. I don't think this breed of misandry is as common in bigger countries like the UK, US and Germany but you still see rags like the Guardian and BBC Radio 4 continuing to peddle the image of women being taken the victims of the patriarchy. I'm not saying misogyny never occurs, but it'd be nice to see a spotlight shown on issues affecting men. Flawed as the execution was, it was great to see Fair City and Corrie tackle domestic abuse perpetrated by women and hopefully spreading awareness will lead to these issues being taken more seriously.

iptba · 14-11-2013 5:03pm

Davelarson wrote: »

Soon we'll be living in a society where boys will be brought up to believe they're bad just for being male.

Saw this quote recently:

“I will not have my sons grow up in a world where the new original sin is being a man.”

Riskymove · 14-11-2013 5:07pm

Newaglish wrote: »

I heard them talking on the radio about some kind of survey that they did that discovered that men didn't have an awareness of domestic violence i.e. what is is or the fact that it happens.

I think it was more vague - a low % "were aware of the impact of doemstic violence"

imo how would you know unless it was visited upon you?

Here is the article

http://www.thejournal.ie/men-domestic-violence-ireland-survey-1172111-Nov2013/

something that annoyed me about the article is that on a couple of occassions it says "Men claim" something insinuating it may not be true while the women's responses are stated as fact

py2006 · 14-11-2013 5:10pm

Riskymove wrote: »

I think it was more vague - a low % "were aware of the impact of doemstic violence"

imo how would you know unless it was visited upon you?

Was that the same survey that said, "45% of men are not aware of how violence against women affects them"?

:rolleyes:

Riskymove · 14-11-2013 5:12pm

py2006 wrote: »

Was that the same survey that said, "45% of men are not aware of how violence against women affects them"?

:rolleyes:

yep

Gran Hermano · 14-11-2013 5:46pm

Anyone know why they didn't have a survey where they asked people (regardless of gender) whether they were aware of the impact of domestic violence?

Henry9 · 14-11-2013 6:01pm

Gran Hermano wrote: »

Anyone know why they didn't have a survey where they asked people (regardless of gender) whether they were aware of the impact of domestic violence?

Because they're not interested,
There's a narrative to be reinforced, anything which contradicts it is ignored.

Henry9 · 14-11-2013 6:15pm

deccurley wrote: »

If it stops one assault won't it be worth it?

Yes you're right. Just like that 'don't be that guy' condescending rubbish.

So I look forward to the advert depicting a Muslim plotting a terrorist outrage, hey don't be that guy! If it saves one life isn't it worth the outcry?

Or an immigrant defrauding the social welfare. Hey don't be that guy! So what if it depicts immigrants as benefit cheats? Means to an end isn't it?

Same as the 'he drives, she dies!' adverts. It's almost like there's only one group you can sling mud at in this way. Any other group would be 'stigmatised' or 'demonised'. Just ask Edmund Walsh.

Anyway it worked on me, in future I will MAN UP and not wimp out when the chips are down. Like a woman would presumably,

GalwayGuy2 · 14-11-2013 8:39pm

To people who say men can't be abused. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2507072/Paranoid-woman-Debbi-Wood-suffering-Othello-Syndrome-forces-fianc-lie-detector-test.html

Also, this could easily go under the sexism tab. Honestly, look at the wording of what is definitely an abusive relationship.

"Man Up" campaign by SafeIreland

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