Stallions

It's damn hard to make it as a stallion at Coolmore. The Gurkha needs some fireworks this year to ensure that he stays there for the 2022 season.

Wootton Basset at €100,000 and No Nay Never at €125,000 ( down from €175k this year ) look to be very pricey when you consider that Invincible Spirit can be had for €80,000 over at the Irish National Stud. Fastnet Rock at €50k is more than fair and Mastercraftsman is a gift at €15k.

Rabbit Redux wrote: »

€100k seems a bit excessive for Wooton Bassett. Granted he's an outcross from much of Coolmore's established bloodlines so he'll appeal to owners of Galileo-bred mares etc. but Coolmore are really pitching him high. Their hype machine has been in overdrive since they bought him from France. Presumably they'll send plenty of their own mares to him in the next few years.

He’s cheap at that price. Well able to upgrade his mares and now he’s getting the creme de la creme. Coolmore need a replacement for Galileo and he’s it.

I says wrote: »

He’s cheap at that price. Well able to upgrade his mares and now he’s getting the creme de la creme. Coolmore need a replacement for Galileo and he’s it.

Ideally they need one of the top 2 or 3 stallions in the world standing in Tipperary and an understudy to that top Stallion who is himself in the top 10 turf stallions in the World.

In Sadlers Wells and Danehill they had the top 2 turf stallions in the World and they had Montjeu and Galileo coming through at the same time. Also Danehill Dancer worked his way up to being exceptional but never fashionable.

In a fashion sense Wootton Basset is in the Danehill Dancer category, a horse who will consistently produce Group and G1 winners without having the kind of Champion aura that followed Sadlers Wells, Danehill and Galileo. Even the mighty Danehill had to work his way up from producing precocious types to a level where he was getting the type of mares that can produce a stream of Classic winners to elevate him to the very top.

I don't believe the Coolmore hype machine about them putting their money where their mouth is and sending the best of their own to him. They have dozens of minor Galileo mares to send his way, which is probably as far as they will go towards supporting him. He won't get too much handed on a plate to him until he has forced himself into a position there where he can't be ignored.



At the moment Coolmore have Galileo and dozens of G1 winning bluebloods passing through there but living in his shadow.

They want a replacement for him but they are in no rush at all. What they crave at the moment is a new Scat Daddy, a stallion that produces powerful 2yos that can go on to compete in the top 5-8f+ races at 3yo+. A stallion like that is a golden ticket and a perfect complement to the Derby-Guineas-Leger types that Galileo and his sons pump out. No Nay Never was ramped up to exploit the desire out there for speed. The problem with No Nay Never is while we're waiting for the expensively bred ones to do amazing things, we're left with the cheaper ones trying to imitate what he could produce in a few years. He really stamps his stock in a more elegant way than his own sire did with his equine gorillas.

Have you seen Justify settling into his stallion career? He's still rippling with muscles, he has a neck like a bull, there's muscle up there that I never saw on any horse and he's full of energy. If he makes the grade as a stallion Ballydoyle will be flooded with his stock.

Aga Khan Studs

DARIYAN : €8,000
HARZAND : €8,000
SEA THE STARS : €150,000
SIYOUNI : €140,000
ZARAK : €12,000

Poor old Harzand a young stallion and Dual Derby winner scratching for a living while his more illustrious compatriots who proved their speed and prowess are soaring away from him.

Siyouni's fee will likely soon eclipse that of Sea The Stars, as good as Sea The Stars is at Stud he's still not getting top juveniles. I wonder if he was sent some mares who are proven sources of Juvenile pattern horses would it give him those precious Juvenile Stars?

tryfix wrote: »

Bargains galore, even the dearest of them in Invincible Spirit is a bargain.

I agree. The prices below the first couple (out of my price range) are value.
National Defense by Invincible Spirit has a strong line of stallions on his dam line: Kingmambo; Caerleon; Ela-Mana-Mou; Mill Reef.

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GALILEO GOLD___________16.10
GALIWAY________________16.00
GAMUT__________________16.20
GARSWOOD_______________16.20
GEMIX__________________16.00
GENTLEWAVE_____________16.10
GEORGE VANCOUVER_______15.35
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ITO____________________16.15
IT'S GINO______________16.15
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Zoffany dead at the age of 13. He was euthanised after suffering from Liver Failure.

A real pity to lose this fellow just as he was beginning to see his better bred crops coming on line. 3 G1 winners so far for him with 2 of them being the very classy 2yos Albigna and Thunder Moon. The 3rd Ventura Storm as a close second in the St Leger before taking a G1 12f race in Italy.

Some of his runners seem to stand up to plenty of seasons of running to form, I only mention this in passing because one of first stars the G2 Royal Lodge winning 2yo Foundation went backward soon after that win when he had looked assured for G1 honours. That soured me a bit on him but everything I have seen since had changed my mind about his stock.

Thunder Moon would make a nice replacement for him.



Glenagles' G2 winning son Royal Lytham is retiring to stand at Clongiffin stud. He doesn't seem to be a particularly mouth watering prospect and he's far from cheap at €4,000.

tatoo wrote: »

Kayf Tara a top sire definitely, but he won his Gold Cup over twenty years ago.
Westerner was outstayed in his one of his Gold Cup attempts but is a good sire,
Yeats is not a good sire in my book, while the jury is out on the F&Gs.

I might be a bit pedantic in this part, but Westerner won a Gold Cup , the Ascot Gold Cup.....but it was run at York.

Thought Yeats is pretty decent.

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Looking at my database (not updated since 2015) there are Group races

England 151
France 116
Germany 45
Ireland 67
Italy 48
USA* 112 (*Grade 1 only)

Total 539

Pointing out that winners of 1 race out of 549 races did not make it into the top 10 (or top 20) sires list - you are on a winner.

Yes, but the Ascot Gold Cup at 2m 4f is run at the extreme distance and rarely attracts the better horses from the lower distances any more, does 2 1/2mile flat winner bring any of the precocity and pace thats now needed for the NH these days, therefore imo opinion as an outlier it is valid to examine its suitability as a stallion maker.

Dire state of the hurdling divisions needs to be addressed
https://www.attheraces.com/blogs/kevin-blake/30-November-2020/dire-state-of-the-hurdling-divisions-needs-to-be-addressed

Cup horses and Ascot Gold Cup horses are almost never the offspring of winners of those races.
Ascot Gold Cup winners do not produce winners of that race, and are unlikely to be competitive with the 12f sires that produced them and other winners.

A sire that won at 20f is too far away from the average UK race distance of 9.5f.
In 1999 in Ireland the longest flat race was 17f 87 yds, with only 33 flat races beyond 14f, and 3 horses won 9 of those 33 long distance flat races.


From 1988 onwards the Ascot Gold Cup winners were sired by these.

Shirley Heights
Ela-Mana-Mou
Salse
Mtoto
Sadler's Wells
Kahyasi
Sadler's Wells
Robellino
Robellino
Desert King
Singspiel
Danehill
Sadler's Wells x 4
Giant's Causeway
Montjeu
Rainbow Quest
Monsun
Montjeu
Champs Elysees
Galileo
Duke Of Marmalade
Sea The Stars x 3

I think you're helping to make my point for me, the cup horses aren't wanted, or needed, as flat stallions, so invariably end up in the national hunt covering sheds.......where since 1979 none have been a champion sire, or runner-up.