Woman Loses Job for Holding Gender Critical Opinions.

LLMMLL · 16-05-2019 6:17pm

Candamir wrote: »

LLMMLL wrote: »

Because you have yet to show that the statistics are meaningful.

That is a truly dumb argument! Statistics are used in all walk of life to measure, plan, record etc etc. This is not new. If they were of no use, millions of people around the world would have stopped collecting them decades ago.

Then again, difficult to show statistics are meaningful when you don’t want them to be collected in the first place.

What are you afraid of??

Stigmatization obviously.

You have yet to show any good reason to collect statistics on violence perpetrated by trans people.

You think my argument is dumb??? The best you can come up with is that "all stats are useful". Must ask the police to start collecting stats on how.many people with black hair ran a red light on the 23rd of December.

Surely that's not ridiculous if all statistics are automatically meaningful.

Candamir · 16-05-2019 6:20pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

The patient informed the nurse of both being a trans man and having a positive pregnancy test. And presented with typical symptoms. Are you saying that if the nurse saw on the patients record that they were trans the outcome would have been different, even though the patient personally informed the nurse of this??? Can you expand on what difference this would have made?

You really can’t comment on the sequence of events based on a second hand journalists report of a case study from a medical journal. Unfortunately, the original paper from the NEJM isn’t linked. There does seem to have been an issue however with the patients triage and timely intervention, and if the patient had presented as female, she would likely have been better assessed.

There’s also a quote in the NYT article regarding trans people’s access to gender specific medical treatment and screening. That’s another good reason to have a separate categorisation (rather than completely burying the past identity) as it would allow for example, FtM to access such things as breast and cervical screening which is not offered to men.

Candamir · 16-05-2019 6:23pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

Stigmatization obviously.

You have yet to show any good reason to collect statistics on violence perpetrated by trans people.

You think my argument is dumb??? The best you can come up with is that "all stats are useful". Must ask the police to start collecting stats on how.many people with black hair ran a red light on the 23rd of December.

Surely that's not ridiculous if all statistics are automatically meaningful.

You’re afraid collecting stats on transgender MtF violent crime would stigmatise transgender people? Surly that would only be in the realms of possibility if they actually were responsible for more violent crime. (Do you know something the rest of us don’t?) Any if they were responsible for significantly more violent crime, we should bloody well know about it, don’t ya think?

LLMMLL · 16-05-2019 6:25pm

Candamir wrote: »

LLMMLL wrote: »

The patient informed the nurse of both being a trans man and having a positive pregnancy test. And presented with typical symptoms. Are you saying that if the nurse saw on the patients record that they were trans the outcome would have been different, even though the patient personally informed the nurse of this??? Can you expand on what difference this would have made?

You really can’t comment on the sequence of events based on a second hand journalists report of a case study from a medical journal. Unfortunately, the original paper from the NEJM isn’t linked. There does seem to have been an issue however with the patients triage and timely intervention, and if the patient had presented as female, she would likely have been better assessed.

There’s also a quote in the NYT article regarding trans people’s access to gender specific medical treatment and screening. That’s another good reason to have a separate categorisation (rather than completely burying the past identity) as it would allow for example, FtM to access such things as breast and cervical screening which is not offered to men.

Ah here I didn't post the article. Funny you didn't complain about the second hand journalism when Zorya presented the article as evidence in favour of your argument.

If you mean "presented as female" as presented having a female appearance then yes, that's the point the author of the study was making. But trans men do not present as female. What is your point?

Either way, according to the only evidence we have, the nurse was fully aware that the patient was a trans man with a positive pregnancy test. Having an official record of their trans status wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference.

LLMMLL · 16-05-2019 6:26pm

Candamir wrote: »

LLMMLL wrote: »

Stigmatization obviously.

You have yet to show any good reason to collect statistics on violence perpetrated by trans people.

You think my argument is dumb??? The best you can come up with is that "all stats are useful". Must ask the police to start collecting stats on how.many people with black hair ran a red light on the 23rd of December.

Surely that's not ridiculous if all statistics are automatically meaningful.

You’re afraid collecting stats on transgender MtF violent crime would stigmatise transgender people? Surly that would only be in the realms of possibility if they actually were responsible for more violent crime. (Do you know something the rest of us don’t?) Any if they were responsible for significantly more violent crime, we should bloody well know about it, don’t ya think?

Nope you are incorrect that stigmatization could only occur if there was an actual issue.

Candamir · 16-05-2019 6:30pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

Ah here I didn't post the article. Funny you didn't complain about the second hand journalism when Zorya presented the article as evidence in favour of your argument.

If you mean "presented as female" as presented having a female appearance then yes, that's the point the author of the study was making. But trans men do not present as female. What is your point?

Either way, according to the only evidence we have, the nurse was fully aware that the patient was a trans man with a positive pregnancy test. Having an official record of their trans status wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference.

It’s not “my argument”. I’m just pointing out the difficulty with making conclusions based on not expert journalistic reporting. That’s all. Don’t get your knickers in a twist.

Zorya’s point re the timeline of when the nurse was fully aware of what, is the critical point in the case.

Zorya · 16-05-2019 6:32pm

Did I miss the place where you responded to this, LLMMLL?
''If a transwoman rapes a woman you want it recorded as female on female crime?''

Candamir · 16-05-2019 6:33pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

Nope you are incorrect that stigmatization could only occur if there was an actual issue.

Since you seem to think that stigmatisation already exists, surly statics that show transgender women are not more violent than cis women would improve the situation?

Or do you think it would reinforce it?:rolleyes:

LLMMLL · 16-05-2019 6:37pm

Candamir wrote: »

LLMMLL wrote: »

Nope you are incorrect that stigmatization could only occur if there was an actual issue.

Since you seem to think that stigmatisation already exists, surly statics that show transgender women are not more violent than cis women would improve the situation?

Or do you think it would reinforce it?:rolleyes:

I actually didn't think trans women were stigmatized as violent until you, Zorya and friends attempted to do so with an individual case.

Candamir · 16-05-2019 6:39pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

I actually didn't think trans women were stigmatized as violent until you, Zorya and friends attempted to do so with an individual case.

Now, I really did miss the bit where I stigmatised trans women as violent!

Do you often go looking for offence when none is there?

Zorya · 16-05-2019 6:39pm

Candamir wrote: »

the timeline of when the nurse was fully aware of what, is the critical point in the case.

Exactly. The time wasted resulted in baby's death. The person was noted as obese and in abdominal pain. The pregnancy test and the transgender MUST have come out later or else the issue would not have arisen.

When the man arrived at the hospital with severe abdominal pains, a nurse didn't consider it an emergency, noting that he was obese and had stopped taking blood pressure medicines. In reality, he was pregnant — a transgender man in labor that was about to end in a stillbirth.

The tragic case, described in Wednesday's New England Journal of Medicine, points to larger issues about assigning labels or making assumptions in a society increasingly confronting gender variations in sports, entertainment and government. In medicine, there's a similar danger of missing diseases such as sickle cell and cystic fibrosis that largely affect specific racial groups, the authors write.

"The point is not what's happened to this particular individual but this is an example of what happens to transgender people interacting with the health care system," said the lead author, Dr. Daphna Stroumsa of the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor.

"He was rightly classified as a man" in the medical records and appears masculine, Stroumsa said. "But that classification threw us off from considering his actual medical needs."

The doctor states clearly that the classification as male on the records was what delayed things.

Now one might say that they should have guessed or been better trained, but that would mean treating all men and women as potentially pregnant in an ER situation which is simply unfeasible from an economic point of view.

TuringBot47 · 16-05-2019 6:42pm

Candamir wrote: »

Now, I really did miss the bit where I stigmatised trans women as violent!

I'd say messing with the endocrine system with artificial hormones is going to make a trans person less emotionally stable.

Adding female hormones to a trans woman will likely make them more emotional.
Adding male hormones to a trans man will likely make them more aggressive.

LLMMLL · 16-05-2019 6:43pm

Candamir wrote: »

LLMMLL wrote: »

Ah here I didn't post the article. Funny you didn't complain about the second hand journalism when Zorya presented the article as evidence in favour of your argument.

If you mean "presented as female" as presented having a female appearance then yes, that's the point the author of the study was making. But trans men do not present as female. What is your point?

Either way, according to the only evidence we have, the nurse was fully aware that the patient was a trans man with a positive pregnancy test. Having an official record of their trans status wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference.

It’s not “my argument”. I’m just pointing out the difficulty with making conclusions based on not expert journalistic reporting. That’s all. Don’t get your knickers in a twist.

Zorya’s point re the timeline of when the nurse was fully aware of what, is the critical point in the case.

Zorya did not make such a point. Zorya had made one post on the subject and gone strangely quiet since the errors in their argument have been pointed out. Zorya only mentioned that the patient was not triaged fast enough.

According to the article (you can criticize it all you like but it's out ONLY actual information, anything else you and Zorya come up with is fantasy):

The 32-year-old patient told the nurse he was transgender WHEN HE ARRIVED at the emergency room

No reference is made to triage or a delay in triage. The thing that was delayed was the actual interaction with a doctor.

LLMMLL · 16-05-2019 6:44pm

Candamir wrote: »

LLMMLL wrote: »

I actually didn't think trans women were stigmatized as violent until you, Zorya and friends attempted to do so with an individual case.

Now, I really did miss the bit where I stigmatised trans women as violent!

Do you often go looking for offence when none is there?

No I don't. Do you?

LLMMLL · 16-05-2019 6:53pm

Zorya wrote: »

Candamir wrote: »

the timeline of when the nurse was fully aware of what, is the critical point in the case.

Exactly. The time wasted resulted in baby's death. The person was noted as obese and in abdominal pain. The pregnancy test and the transgender MUST have come out later or else the issue would not have arisen.

Absolutely bizarre that you post an article then ignore the ACTUAL contents which clearly state that the info about being trans and the pregnancy test were known from the start. Not only do you ignore but claim that the facts "MUST" be different.

First time I've seen someone pick holes in their own article before. Congratulations.

When the man arrived at the hospital with severe abdominal pains, a nurse didn't consider it an emergency, noting that he was obese and had stopped taking blood pressure medicines. In reality, he was pregnant — a transgender man in labor that was about to end in a stillbirth.

The tragic case, described in Wednesday's New England Journal of Medicine, points to larger issues about assigning labels or making assumptions in a society increasingly confronting gender variations in sports, entertainment and government. In medicine, there's a similar danger of missing diseases such as sickle cell and cystic fibrosis that largely affect specific racial groups, the authors write.

"The point is not what's happened to this particular individual but this is an example of what happens to transgender people interacting with the health care system," said the lead author, Dr. Daphna Stroumsa of the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor.

"He was rightly classified as a man" in the medical records and appears masculine, Stroumsa said. "But that classification threw us off from considering his actual medical needs."

The doctor states clearly that the classification as male on the records was what delayed things.

Now one might say that they should have guessed or been better trained, but that would mean treating all men and women as potentially pregnant in an ER situation which is simply unfeasible from an economic point of view.

The doctor says they were "rightly" classified as a man so obviously doesnt agree with you about changing the classification.

Zorya · 16-05-2019 6:54pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

Zorya did not make such a point. Zorya had made one post on the subject and gone strangely quiet since the errors in their argument have been pointed out. Zorya only mentioned that the patient was not triaged fast enough.

According to the article (you can criticize it all you like but it's out ONLY actual information, anything else you and Zorya come up with is fantasy):

No reference is made to triage or a delay in triage. The thing that was delayed was the actual interaction with a doctor.

I'm glad you like my name so much. I think it's cool too.

Zorya did not go strangely quiet, I addressed the article.

But also re crime and why it should be recorded as per biological sex

figures show there are 139 transgender prisoners in England and Wales, of whom 114 identify as female. Twenty-two, or 16%, were born male but are housed in women’s prisons. There are 18 transgender prisoners in Scotland, of whom 12, or two-thirds, were housed in or seeking transfers to women’s prisons.

Some 48% of transgender prisoners are sex offenders, the Ministry of Justice said in a freedom of information answer earlier this year, compared with less than 20% of the prison population as a whole.

They include Karen White, born Stephen Wood, a double rapist who was sent to New Hall women’s jail last year, where she assaulted two female prisoners. She was returned to a male jail after the assaults.

Jessica Winfield, born Martin Ponting, another double rapist put in a women’s prison, was reportedly segregated after she made advances to other inmates.

Gender surgeons and prison governors have said that some male-born sex offenders are transitioning in order to gain access to women prisoners, or to appear less dangerous in the hope of earlier parole.

Ministry of Justice figures show the number of women in prison for sex offences has risen by 40% in three years, from 93 in 2015 to 130 this year. The figures do not distinguish between biological women and trans women. Women’s campaigners said it was highly likely that much of the increase was accounted for by male-born transgender sex offenders such as White and Winfield, who are counted as female in the statistics.

Nicola Williams, of Fair Play for Women, which has begun a parliamentary petition to change the policy, said: “These latest disclosures are deeply disturbing. MPs should be asking why the prison system is turning a blind eye to the abuse of women in its care.”

A 40% rise in figures for women! In 3 years!!! And you are going to talk about the odd one here and there, the hardly any, the occasional. Give us a break. And what about the recording of female rape on rape which you still won't address?

Zorya · 16-05-2019 6:58pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

The doctor says they were "rightly" classified as a man so obviously doesnt agree with you about changing the classification.

I thought you were a scientist. The precise classification of things is fundamental to science. The doctor, being politically correct, said that the patient was rightly classified as a man. But it is exactly this classification that caused the time delay. The classification was the root problem.

Candamir · 16-05-2019 7:00pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

Zorya did not make such a point. Zorya had made one post on the subject and gone strangely quiet since the errors in their argument have been pointed out. Zorya only mentioned that the patient was not triaged fast enough.

According to the article (you can criticize it all you like but it's out ONLY actual information, anything else you and Zorya come up with is fantasy):

No reference is made to triage or a delay in triage. The thing that was delayed was the actual interaction with a doctor.

Ya see, that’s the thing about Emergency Departments - triage kind of dictates when you get seen by a doctor:rolleyes:

Several hours later, a doctor evaluated him and the hospital test confirmed pregnancy. An ultrasound showed unclear signs of fetal heart activity, and an exam revealed that part of the umbilical cord had slipped into the birth canal. Doctors prepared to do an emergency cesarean delivery, but in the operating room no fetal heartbeat was heard. Moments later, the man delivered a stillborn baby.

A woman showing up with similar symptoms "would almost surely have been triaged and evaluated more urgently for pregnancy-related problems," the authors wrote.

Candamir · 16-05-2019 7:05pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

No I don't. Do you?

Not at all. But you just accused me of stigmatising transgender people. I find that deeply offensive. Wouldn’t you?

LLMMLL · 16-05-2019 7:06pm

Zorya wrote: »

LLMMLL wrote: »

The doctor says they were "rightly" classified as a man so obviously doesnt agree with you about changing the classification.

I thought you were a scientist. The precise classification of things is fundamental to science. The doctor, being politically correct, said that the patient was rightly classified as a man. But it is exactly this classification that caused the time delay. The classification was the root problem.

<snip> I presume? I am a scientist. And as a scientist I know that precise classification is tricky across every domain I've worked in. The idea that precise classification is the fundamental of science is laughable to any actual scientist. Answer me this: is light a particle or a wave? Surely physicists above all other scientists would be able to precisely categorize it......

The classification led to a delay through the nurse's bias. This is what the author suggests needs to change. But hey, ignore the points made in the article YOU posted as evidence.

LLMMLL · 16-05-2019 7:10pm

Candamir wrote: »

LLMMLL wrote: »

No I don't. Do you?

Not at all. But you just accused me of stigmatising transgender people. I find that deeply offensive. Wouldn’t you?

It would depend if it were true or not. I doubt I'll ever be accused of stigmatising trans people. Because I dont

LLMMLL · 16-05-2019 7:12pm

Candamir wrote: »

LLMMLL wrote: »

Zorya did not make such a point. Zorya had made one post on the subject and gone strangely quiet since the errors in their argument have been pointed out. Zorya only mentioned that the patient was not triaged fast enough.

According to the article (you can criticize it all you like but it's out ONLY actual information, anything else you and Zorya come up with is fantasy):

No reference is made to triage or a delay in triage. The thing that was delayed was the actual interaction with a doctor.

Ya see, that’s the thing about Emergency Departments - triage kind of dictates when you get seen by a doctor:rolleyes:

Yes I'm aware of that. However you claimed Zorya made a valid point about timelines and I was simply pointing out that their claim that triage was delayed was not supported by the evidence.

Zorya · 16-05-2019 7:13pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

<snip> I presume? I am a scientist. And as a scientist I know that precise classification is tricky across every domain I've worked in. The idea that precise classification is the fundamental of science is laughable to any actual scientist. Answer me this: is light a particle or a wave? Surely physicists above all other scientists would be able to precisely categorize it......

The classification led to a delay through the nurse's bias. This is what the author suggests needs to change. But hey, ignore the points made in the article YOU posted as evidence.

I believe the rules say something about speculation. Must have an oul read of them some day.

Again with the science is vague argument. :rolleyes:

LLMMLL · 16-05-2019 7:18pm

Zorya wrote: »

LLMMLL wrote: »

<snip> I presume? I am a scientist. And as a scientist I know that precise classification is tricky across every domain I've worked in. The idea that precise classification is the fundamental of science is laughable to any actual scientist. Answer me this: is light a particle or a wave? Surely physicists above all other scientists would be able to precisely categorize it......

The classification led to a delay through the nurse's bias. This is what the author suggests needs to change. But hey, ignore the points made in the article YOU posted as evidence.

I believe the rules say something about speculation. Must have an oul read of them some day.

Again with the science is vague argument. :rolleyes:

Please point out where I have ever claimed science was vague :rolleyes:

Speculation? From the person who posts an article as evidence and then speculates about timelines claiming they MUST (Thats an actual quote) be as you speculate, even though it clearly contradicts the article YOU posted.

You are giving me a great laugh today <snip>.

Zorya · 16-05-2019 7:23pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

Please point out where I have ever claimed science was vague :rolleyes:

Speculation? From the person who posts an article as evidence and then speculates about timelines claiming they MUST (Thats an actual quote) be as you speculate, even though it clearly contradicts the article YOU posted.

You are giving me a great laugh today <snip>.

You sound like you need a great laugh, so i'm happy to be of some service.

LLMMLL · 16-05-2019 7:25pm

Zorya wrote: »

LLMMLL wrote: »

Please point out where I have ever claimed science was vague :rolleyes:

Speculation? From the person who posts an article as evidence and then speculates about timelines claiming they MUST (Thats an actual quote) be as you speculate, even though it clearly contradicts the article YOU posted.

You are giving me a great laugh today <snip>.

You sound like you need a great laugh, so i'm happy to be of some service.

You gave a fantastic comic performance.

Candamir · 16-05-2019 7:57pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

Yes I'm aware of that. However you claimed Zorya made a valid point about timelines and I was simply pointing out that their claim that triage was delayed was not supported by the evidence.

So you know how EDs work, but didn’t see the didnt appreciate the significance of the triage issue? Ok.

Try reading it again. I think I even quoted and bolder the relevant part.

LLMMLL · 16-05-2019 7:59pm

Candamir wrote: »

LLMMLL wrote: »

Yes I'm aware of that. However you claimed Zorya made a valid point about timelines and I was simply pointing out that their claim that triage was delayed was not supported by the evidence.

Try reading it again.

I have. And?

Mr. CooL ICE · 16-05-2019 8:35pm

Mod: LLMMLL, stop trying to out other users' names

Dante7 · 16-05-2019 8:51pm

It's interesting how crimes involving trans women are reported. If the victim is transgender it will be reported that the victim was a trans woman. However if the perpetrator is trans, then it will be reported that they were simply a woman.

Woman Loses Job for Holding Gender Critical Opinions.

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