Lack of closures / mergers / consolidation / automation in Irish Radio

leoXX · 15-07-2020 2:08pm #1

When you see the way that Uk independent local radio has been absolutely gutted in recent years with massive job losses, it really is amazing that apart from some small exceptions, Irish radio has very much managed to stay untouched. Perhaps it proves that The BAI have been right about not going ahead with further licences/deregulation and have actually saved jobs in doing so?

Infoanon · 15-07-2020 2:23pm

As a rule of thumb I always allow 20 years for Irish radio to catch up on UK radio.

The BAI imho are acting in the now but not future proofing.

There have been job losses,huge financial losses and no planning for the future of radio .

So yes in the short term they have done the right thing however when it all falls it will be a collapse

ford fiesta · 15-07-2020 2:31pm

Can anyone confirm if Mid West Radio (MWR) in Mayo, are the only Irish radio station with fully live presenter-led programmes (no documentaries or repeat shows) 7 days per week, from 7am to 2am the following morning?
19 Hours per day of live radio.

leoXX · 15-07-2020 2:41pm

Infoanon wrote: »

As a rule of thumb I always allow 20 years for Irish radio to catch up on UK radio.

The BAI imho are acting in the now but not future proofing.

There have been job losses,huge financial losses and no planning for the future of radio .

So yes in the short term they have done the right thing however when it all falls it will be a collapse

I do wonder are Today FM and Newstalk making a profit/breaking even these days ?

leoXX · 15-07-2020 2:47pm

ford fiesta wrote: »

Can anyone confirm if Mid West Radio (MWR) in Mayo, are the only Irish radio station with fully live presenter-led programmes (no documentaries or repeat shows) 7 days per week, from 7am to 2am the following morning?
19 Hours per day of live radio.

You'd need to check the website schedule listings for every local station. Even in the Celtic tiger days Midwests neighbors, Galway Bay FM and Clare FM were finishing up at midnight while Midwest continued till 2am

ford fiesta · 15-07-2020 2:51pm

leoXX wrote: »

You'd need to check the website schedule listings for every local station. Even in the Celtic tiger days Midwests neighbors, Galway Bay FM and Clare FM were finishing up at midnight while Midwest continued till 2am

Galway Bay is defo not live until 12 am these days!! More like 6 or 7 pm..

dxhound2005 · 15-07-2020 3:43pm

Maybe a comparison with countries like New Zealand and Norway would be fairer. Some UK stations serve urban areas with more people than the whole of Ireland.

16-07-2020 6:54pm

ford fiesta wrote: »

Can anyone confirm if Mid West Radio (MWR) in Mayo, are the only Irish radio station with fully live presenter-led programmes (no documentaries or repeat shows) 7 days per week, from 7am to 2am the following morning?
19 Hours per day of live radio.

Pre-Covid, Donegal's Highland Radio ran live from 7am - 1am.

16-07-2020 7:11pm

Infoanon wrote: »

As a rule of thumb I always allow 20 years for Irish radio to catch up on UK radio.

20 years? Based on what specific standards or metrics?

Infoanon · 16-07-2020 7:22pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

20 years? Based on what specific standards or metrics?

Pirates dominance 60s UK vs 80s Ireland
Legal Stations 70s UK vs 90s Ireland (89 to be precise)
Effective end of pirates late 80s in the UK vs 03s Ireland

BAI have only started relaxing rules on networking of programmes and the DAB debacle is attempts to put off the inevitable - all lagging behind the UK circa 20 years.

Lord Nelson · 16-07-2020 11:50pm

leoXX wrote: »

When you see the way that Uk independent local radio has been absolutely gutted in recent years with massive job losses, it really is amazing that apart from some small exceptions, Irish radio has very much managed to stay untouched. Perhaps it proves that The BAI have been right about not going ahead with further licences/deregulation and have actually saved jobs in doing so?

Saved who's job......robojock sitting on a shelf in the corner? Might be better for us all if some of them did fail and present the opportunity to inject some new blood into the radio scene.

Infoanon · 17-07-2020 12:51am

Lord Nelson wrote: »

Saved who's job......robojock sitting on a shelf in the corner? Might be better for us all if some of them did fail and present the opportunity to inject some new blood into the radio scene.

Phantom / TX is an example of a station failing - licence was not put up for new applicants and no new licence for any type of FM services has been advertised .

The BAI will maintain the status quo even if that means stations abandon conditions of their licence application.

There are barriers of entry for any new stations - no licences being issued ,temporary services - restrictions on playlist / advertising and high cost of entries , DAB - there are no licences for a full time service and a temporary service is only allowed host BAI S.77 (iirc ) service licences which iirc carry a 5 year upfront payment. Stand to be corrected on the finer details of the DAB licence but in summary the cost is prohibitive

Lord Nelson · 17-07-2020 9:23am

Infoanon wrote: »

Phantom / TX is an example of a station failing - licence was not put up for new applicants and no new licence for any type of FM services has been advertised .

The BAI will maintain the status quo even if that means stations abandon conditions of their licence application.

There are barriers of entry for any new stations - no licences being issued ,temporary services - restrictions on playlist / advertising and high cost of entries , DAB - there are no licences for a full time service and a temporary service is only allowed host BAI S.77 (iirc ) service licences which iirc carry a 5 year upfront payment. Stand to be corrected on the finer details of the DAB licence but in summary the cost is prohibitive

Yes indeed, a five year content licence has to be paid for up front in respect of DAB. Seems pretty irrelevant as there are no licensed multiplexes at present to put your content on so just stick your licence in a drawer to gather dust?! As far as I can recall, the trial multiplexes were licensed for three years so once again why pay for a five year content licence? The IRTC/BAI have been kicking the DAB can down the road for years with assurances that they are "looking into it". How long does it take to look. While there is still good mileage left in FM, we run the risk of having digital imposed on us by Brussels with no domestic plan of action.
It's actually quite depressing to look across the water where there has been an explosion of small scale DAB servicing anything from large cities to country villages. Some of the smaller multiplexes are actually offering free carriage for micro stations that only serve a very small area on a voluntary basis.
Unfortunately in Ireland it's all about protecting the existing players and by extension denying real diversity.
The 1988 Act is now 32 years old and in my view is no longer fit for purpose as it was written in an analogue age which has long since disappeared. That however is a completely separate discussion.
Rant over, I'm off to the pub.........oh wait!!

marno21 · 17-07-2020 12:53pm

Spin South West is down to 7 hours from Limerick now on weekdays. All other programming is networked from Dublin or automated. This was announced pre-covid too. This is the level of networking Capital FM in the UK was at until Ofcom further deregulated last year and cut the local requirement down to 3 hours per day.

Losty Dublin · 20-07-2020 1:39am

ford fiesta wrote: »

Can anyone confirm if Mid West Radio (MWR) in Mayo, are the only Irish radio station with fully live presenter-led programmes (no documentaries or repeat shows) 7 days per week, from 7am to 2am the following morning?
19 Hours per day of live radio.

You'd be right. It'll take more than a bit of Covid to make MWR give up their schedule!

KReid · 21-07-2020 11:35pm

I wholly disagree with the original statement. As someone said we have seen the seeds of networking with Spin becoming one brand with opt out shows in the South West, we have a huge networked news service that is basically the same everywhere after 7. Communicorp and Wireless have restructured hugely in the last few years to accommodate the market shrinking, including moving locations and expanding their brands.

One reason we don't see more networking is that stations are owned by different companies. In the UK you could buy 12 different stations across the country and start a network. The marketplace in Ireland would not sustain that, there is no value in buying say Beat and Iradio to network them, the advertising revenue wouldn't really be growing, especially when you have Spin SW and Red FM overlapping in key demographics areas.

The DAB discussion is bonkers too. Im (or was) in the UK a lot with work, I never saw the appeal of DAB, it was always a bit difficult and awkward, and also extremely costly. Radios future here is on the Internet, skip the middle man of DAB, by the time we have it setup we will be into the cycle of 5g here and be able to get Internet access across the country.

Infoanon · 22-07-2020 12:07am

KReid wrote: »

The DAB discussion is bonkers too. Im (or was) in the UK a lot with work, I never saw the appeal of DAB, it was always a bit difficult and awkward, and also extremely costly. Radios.

41% of radio listenership in the UK is via DAB with 70% of Digital listenership via DAB with DAB ownership being circa 70% according to the latest figures

22-07-2020 12:49am

Infoanon wrote: »

41% of radio listenership in the UK is via DAB with 70% of Digital listenership via DAB with DAB ownership being circa 70% according to the latest figures

But what's the point of DAB? We know it is rapidly on it's way to becoming obsolete. I just don't see any benefit for the listener, and neither (it seems) do the listeners.

There's nothing substantively wrong with it, but it doesn't bring any additional value that would merit extra investment.

KReid · 22-07-2020 12:50am

Infoanon wrote: »

41% of radio listenership in the UK is via DAB with 70% of Digital listenership via DAB with DAB ownership being circa 70% according to the latest figures

Sorry ye, I don't doubt its not doing well in the UK, theu made it work, we missed the boat with it, the privately owned stations didn't invest in it.

Investing in a DAB infrastructure now when we have other far more flexible and accessible means of connectivity would be waste of money. The vast majority of this country has a smartphone and Internet access (yes, yes I know your Granny in Castletown can't get moren than 2mb) how many people are going to invest in another piece of technology like a DAB radio when you can ask Alexa to play the station you want, or use your phone.

Let the UK use DAB, we can move ahead and use the Internet.

Infoanon · 22-07-2020 10:36am

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

But what's the point of DAB? We know it is rapidly on it's way to becoming obsolete. I just don't see any benefit for the listener, and neither (it seems) do the listeners.

There's nothing substantively wrong with it, but it doesn't bring any additional value that would merit extra investment.

DAB allowed the addition of many radio stations - it's not obsolete - the figures are there - 41% of all listenership is DAB and it dominates (70%) digital listenership.

If anything the figures are going to grow with the requirement that all new cars have DAB.

Regarding additional value - 10 FM transmitters get replaced by 1 DAB transmitter - that's a big saving.

However - Ireland has missed the boat on DAB

KReid · 22-07-2020 1:28pm

Infoanon wrote: »

DAB allowed the addition of many radio stations - it's not obsolete - the figures are there - 41% of all listenership is DAB and it dominates (70%) digital listenership.

If anything the figures are going to grow with the requirement that all new cars have DAB.

Regarding additional value - 10 FM transmitters get replaced by 1 DAB transmitter - that's a big saving.

However - Ireland has missed the boat on DAB

I don't think that figure really tallies up with Ireland though, just because something works in one country doesn't mean it would work in another. It took us years to implement Saorview. Don't forget the UK has local stations the broadcast to a population greater than ours as a country, there was a much greater demand for increased listening opportunities.

How much would be saved though? And who's saving it? You would have to build new infrastructure for a DAB network, even if it meant you could remove traditional FM transmission, the actual transmitters would stay because they often serve other purposes with mobile masts and satellites housed on them and would continue to be serviced.

I get the arguments that all new cars will have DAB compatability, but that's only new cars, it would be nearly 5 or 6 years before the majority of country has a car made post 2019. What kind of advances will be made in wireless communications and satellites by then.

DAB could have worked here but it didn't, not enough investment, not enough interest from private stations. Personally I would rather see that money spent on improving our broadband and Internet services, which offer more value.

Simply put, why would I buy a DAB radio for 60 euro when I can listen on my phone or laptop, devices which serve several other purposes?

ford fiesta · 22-07-2020 2:34pm

Is DAB also a *common term for non-FM listeners (phones, smart devices, TV) in the UK? ...

*not just DAB receivers?

Infoanon · 22-07-2020 2:38pm

The figures from the UK shows the potential that does / did exist for DAB - however the current stations did not want the competition and with the BAI operating rules bordering on monopolistic DAB has been effectively shut down in Ireland. Which all ties in nicely with the thread .

Why buy a DAB radio - superior sound quality compared to phones and most laptops.
Infrastructure - already exists and switching off and removing FM TXS would safe money and not affect other services.

Earlier this year a proposal was put forward for a legal full time DAB service - arguably an expression of interest as no such licence exists - the service was fully subscribed to

Thus there are individuals/stations who are willing to invest in DAB because they do see a future and a demand for DAB in Ireland.

Infoanon · 22-07-2020 2:41pm

ford fiesta wrote: »

Is DAB also a *common term for non-FM listeners (phones, smart devices, TV) in the UK? ...

*not just DAB receivers?

No - there is a clear distinction made hence the digital audience is broken down 70% DAB with the other 30% including Sky and Free sat radio stations and online listening.

KReid · 22-07-2020 7:53pm

Infoanon wrote: »

.

Why buy a DAB radio - superior sound quality compared to phones and most laptops.
Infrastructure - already exists and switching off and removing FM TXS would safe money and not affect other services.

Earlier this year a proposal was put forward for a legal full time DAB service - arguably an expression of interest as no such licence exists - the service was fully subscribed to
.

Actually, ye sound quality on DAB would be superior assuming the stations broadcast it correctly. Although people are more than happy to listen to Spotify on their phone, and sound quality is enhanced with headphones so I'm not sure it's a major issue for people. It would only be limited to people in their house.

Genuinely though, who's saving money by turning off FM transmission? There would need to be a big campaign to drive people away from it and to DAB. If it could be done to supplement FM originally it might work, and we could gradually phase out FM over the next ten years.

Would it be feasible for the BAI to request that all FM stations broadcast on DAB by 2023 say, keep the FM band alive until 2030? Or would stations just point towards their online platforms and say there's no need for DAB

Tork · 23-07-2020 1:35pm

Infoanon wrote: »

If anything the figures are going to grow with the requirement that all new cars have DAB

When did this rule come in? There is no DAB in my car.

Infoanon · 23-07-2020 2:17pm

Tork wrote: »

When did this rule come in? There is no DAB in my car.

Q3 2019 iirc

Tork · 23-07-2020 2:25pm

Ah, I missed it so. Not that I care one jot TBH. If DAB ever takes off in this country I will walk naked down O'Connell Street (God help you all!

)

Infoanon · 23-07-2020 2:30pm

KReid wrote: »

Genuinely though, who's saving money by turning off FM transmission?

The stations themselves would save money.

Would it be feasible for the BAI to request that all FM stations broadcast on DAB by 2023 say, keep the FM band alive until 2030? Or would stations just point towards their online platforms and say there's no need for DAB

The point is mute as the FM stations don't want to go on DAB as it would mean more competition - online does not give the penetration required to replace either FM or DAB in the short / medium term

Infoanon · 23-07-2020 2:33pm

Tork wrote: »

Ah, I missed it so. Not that I care one jot TBH. If DAB ever takes off in this country I will walk naked down O'Connell Street (God help you all! )

Since RTE are closing down their DAB services and the pirate DAB was taken off the air soon there will be nothing on DAB....just in time for the introduction of the EU rules on DAB being mandatory in motor cars

One way of maintaining the status quo !

Losty Dublin · 23-07-2020 4:03pm

The one thing that you aren't allowing for here is that the UK radio broadcasting scene has largely moved away from local stand alone stations and more towards larger networked stations. Obviously I am not suggesting that they have gone this way purely for DAB's benefit but decades of tolerance of cross ownership and acceptance of centrally programmed has rolled in nicely as DAB moves to replaces AM.

While fans of DAB will rightfully claim that regional areas now have more choice, these listening options are actually "niche" stations from the Bauer's of this realm. Perhaps a Kisstory or Absolute 80's or UCB 2 works and consumers are glad of it but the community loses out on what was meant to be a local station. One of the chief benefits of our local radio stations in Ireland is that our airwaves are indeed populated with locally run stations. The BAI need to be careful to not lose this whatever about expanding operations.

As regards the TX end, well yeah the audio is great and the bean counter in me can't argue with about 300 TX sites replacing 3,000 FM/AM sites. Unless you happen to live in the many nooks and crannies that DAB can't reach

Infoanon wrote: »

The figures from the UK shows the potential that does / did exist for DAB - however the current stations did not want the competition and with the BAI operating rules bordering on monopolistic DAB has been effectively shut down in Ireland. Which all ties in nicely with the thread ..

flazio · 25-07-2020 12:38pm

Also, how long has i102-104 and i105-107 been essentially iRadio for?
I reckon most of their current listeners have never even heard of the previous two radio stations.

end of the road · 25-07-2020 12:41pm

flazio wrote: »

Also, how long has i102-104 and i105-107 been essentially iRadio for?
I reckon most of their current listeners have never even heard of the previous two radio stations.

if i remember correctly they merged not long after 105 107 launched.

flazio · 25-07-2020 12:59pm

end of the road wrote: »

if i remember correctly they merged not long after 105 107 launched.

I think 105-107 got about 2 years. I remember Bernard O'Shea and Keith Walsh cut their teeth on Breakfast here before Breakfast Republic on 2FM. They shared presenters here and there and occasionally networked the news, weather and sport (messily owing to different sponsorship deals) but stayed apart. i102-104 moved to Athlone but stayed their own station before the merger finally happened. (though for JNLR advertising reasons, they actually remain separate stations)

KReid · 28-07-2020 11:51pm

Infoanon wrote: »

The point is mute as the FM stations don't want to go on DAB as it would mean more competition - online does not give the penetration required to replace either FM or DAB in the short / medium term

Could you outline why online doesn't give the penetration to replace FM? Genuinely though you seem clued into how this works. My view is it's literally everywhere, Podcasting is huge now, which is essentially radio without the ad's. It's very easy to say "ok google, play Newstalk" and hear Newstalk in seconds. I still make the point, if we did have DAB now, it's unlikely anyone would favour it over an internet device. FM is tried and tested and I dont see it going anywhere, but technology is advancing at a rapid rate, listening habits are changing dramatically too. Every radio station has opt outs for online stations. Today FM would rather you listened to Today FM Rock rather than Radio Nova because they can monetize that digital space.

Nearly every house in this country is connected to the internet or has a digital tv service, stuff we wouldn't have thought was possible 30 years ago.

Moon_shoes · 29-07-2020 9:14am

This whole thing about how the Brits have a booming dab scene and we got left behind is just silly, it's just we are too small. Ireland (Bar the temp little arrangement for Century) has also never had commercial radio on medium wave, the Brits still have an alternative rock national commercial radio station for 25/44yos on Medium wave today. In the 90s Galway bay fm were given a medium wave licence for a country music station but when they did the math they realised Galway was just too small to sustain enough advertising for a second radio station and that was long before the internet.

end of the road · 29-07-2020 1:20pm

Moon_shoes wrote: »

This whole thing about how the Brits have a booming dab scene and we got left behind is just silly, it's just we are too small. Ireland (Bar the temp little arrangement for Century) has also never had commercial radio on medium wave, the Brits still have an alternative rock national commercial radio station for 25/44yos on Medium wave today. In the 90s Galway bay fm were given a medium wave licence for a country music station but when they did the math they realised Galway was just too small to sustain enough advertising for a second radio station and that was long before the internet.

actually there is no evidence we are to small for more stations, because the reality is there is a high amount of regulation in ireland which in turn means a very high cost base model of operation, for which it takes serious amounts of advertising and money to sustain it.
set up costs are also ridiculous i believe.
i don't know why you keep bringing medium wave into the equation, the goings on in relation to it both now and in the past are not relevant to other technologies and are not proof of anything in relation to other technologies.

Infoanon · 29-07-2020 9:03pm

Moon_shoes wrote: »

This whole thing about how the Brits have a booming dab scene and we got left behind is just silly, it's just we are too small. Ireland (Bar the temp little arrangement for Century) has also never had commercial radio on medium wave, the Brits still have an alternative rock national commercial radio station for 25/44yos on Medium wave today.

Almost every commercial radio station was on medium wave in Ireland until the new regime commenced in 89 and no AM licences where issued despite eg Capital 104.4 installing a MW transmitter such was their desire to be on AM.

The notion that Ireland is too small for DAB based on the MW experience does not add up.
As an aside I have never heard of Galway Bay FM having an AM licence - the IRTC where not issuing AM licences afaik but I am open to correction.

Infoanon · 29-07-2020 9:14pm

KReid wrote: »

Could you outline why online doesn't give the penetration to replace FM? .

On the face of it the majority of the population have digital devices so in theory you could switch off FM and replace it with online.
However the reality is very different.

The majority of people listen to FM for their radio listening.

A very high % of listening is done in the car which is not online friendly.
Listening at home scores highly on background noise which implies easiest accessible format which surveys show remains FM.

The listening figures for online is abysmal. Podcasts or different to 'radio' but even then the figures are low.

One feature of online is that listenership increases with younger age groups.

Audio quality is another issue.

Radio is changing but very slowly.

Tork · 30-07-2020 9:48am

I have tried listening to radio in the car using my smartphone and the results are variable. I rarely have buffering issues with Spotify or podcasts but radio is more problematic.

Homelander · 02-08-2020 6:00pm

ford fiesta wrote: »

Galway Bay is defo not live until 12 am these days!! More like 6 or 7 pm..

It's live presenters until 10PM. Whatever about the quality or niche nature of shows after 8 or 9, no station is gonna switch off live presenters at 6pm, literally a prime slot.

SimonMaher · 04-08-2020 3:13pm

Moon_shoes wrote: »

This whole thing about how the Brits have a booming dab scene and we got left behind is just silly, it's just we are too small. Ireland (Bar the temp little arrangement for Century) has also never had commercial radio on medium wave, the Brits still have an alternative rock national commercial radio station for 25/44yos on Medium wave today. In the 90s Galway bay fm were given a medium wave licence for a country music station but when they did the math they realised Galway was just too small to sustain enough advertising for a second radio station and that was long before the internet.

I normally stay well out of online debates - I know from experience where they generally end up but while I'm here, this is my two cents:

1) The radio industry has been caught up in platform debates for a long time now. I remember us (Phantom at the time) being involved in DAB trials in the mid/late 2000's and all the same arguments about scale, competition and the size of the country being aired then.

Fast forward 10 years and an industry group was to be set up (in 2017 I think) to ventilate those same debates again. Here we are in August 2020 and that never happened either which is not entirely a surprise.

In the interim, we have the Radioplayer platform which is good but unlike pretty much everywhere else where it is in use, it is basically closed to all non-aligned stations and always has been. We all know the story with FM licences. That's platforms dealt with

2) More important than the platform debate or the technology debate is of course content. All that matters to a listener is that they press a button and content they like comes out. They couldn't care less how it got there and neither should they. The rapid takeup in Ireland of Podcasting demonstrates that clearly. I don't believe that it is any coincidence that radio listenership is consistently a good deal higher in the UK (89% UK v 82% all adults here or even more starkly 78% v 55% amoung 15-24 year olds in London - Dublin) where good quality content is provided.

3) Scale is seriously overstated as a factor in this debate. The Solent Minimux in Portsmouth for example is fully populated with 24 Ofcom licenced services. Some are good, some are not. Some have listeners, some don't. The good ones succeed and the bad ones fail. Most are either local by nature or specialist in terms of content. Portsmouth has a population roughly 25% of Dublin at a push (250,000) yet amazingly can still support these stations alongside the big Global and Bauer brands along with the BBC National and local channels. Not bizzarely at all, the growth in stations has led to a growth in ad spend on Radio in the UK in each of the last 5 years. Meanwhile radio revenues here (pre-covid) have fallen along with audiences particularly for music stations.

Our method of regulation, the protection provided to existing players and our archaic beauty contest licencing system are serving nobody well. The status quo has generally been maintained (to come back to the original post) but it's being chipped away slowly (or rapidly if you're a station aimed at under 40s) and without radical change it's only going to keep shrinking much to the delight of the Social Media and Streaming companies.

Simon

KReid · 04-08-2020 10:47pm

Infoanon wrote: »

On the face of it the majority of the population have digital devices so in theory you could switch off FM and replace it with online.
However the reality is very different.

The majority of people listen to FM for their radio listening.

A very high % of listening is done in the car which is not online friendly.
Listening at home scores highly on background noise which implies easiest accessible format which surveys show remains FM.

The listening figures for online is abysmal. Podcasts or different to 'radio' but even then the figures are low.

One feature of online is that listenership increases with younger age groups.

Audio quality is another issue.

Radio is changing but very slowly.

I do broadly agree it's a lot easier in principal than in practice, but also we are a country of talkers and not doers, if we put some planning into it FM could be phased out.

Do you have a source for these online listener figures? In no way would they be competing with FM, but I think they would be rising over the past few years.

I would argue that Podcasts are hugely popular, even more popular than radio now, I couldn't think of a single friend who doesn't listen to a podcast at least once a week, we are in a wave of new modern listening to Podcasts. If you have sources and figures I would be really interested in seeing them, I am genuinely interested to see where stations listeners come from rather than just guesswork we are doing.

Lack of closures / mergers / consolidation / automation in Irish Radio

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