Is the Irish language still relevant to our daily lives?

TerrorFirmer · 21-08-2005 1:49am

You threw away any sign of a reasonable response to my statement. Nice to see your inability to construct any argument veiled by my apparent lack of sense.

So I suppose your logic, which is indeed stupid, would fall on deaf ears?

Care to explain what's wrong with us liking the same music and wearing the same clothes as the English? Who, to be honest, would be expected in fact to be almost identical to us with regards to music, food, clothing, and recreation.

Come again with your mature views of us disentegrating as a country simply because we wear the same clothes as English people.

mickd · 21-08-2005 1:54am

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

I think people need to drop the psychological baggage that was result of learning Irish at school. We are constantly being told what an confident people we are but just mention the Irish language and its switch into juvenile mode "I hate Irish blah blah". Listen your an adult now wheather or not you want to learn this language is up to you, but drop the kiddie nonsense. The Irish language is part of our identity and it is a viable working language. Yes the state education system made a bags out of teaching it but on the other hand other state ventures such as TG4 has made great strides in making the language appealling. Regrettably audience figures are low. If the eduacators put Ros na Run on the syllabus this would stimulate interest.

Dave! · 21-08-2005 2:09am

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

MobileInfantry wrote:

Its called the western world you moron, of course we wear the same clothes and listen to the same music as English people. Would you rather we all started wearing aran jumpers and listened to ceili recordings to preserve our national identity. Try actually thinking about the stupidity of that statement you made. :rolleyes:

No, but letting it fade into non-existance is a terrible shame.

I don't think there was any stupidity in it... We are losing any national identity by letting our music, language, etc., disappear. I'm all for living in a global community, but that doesn't mean we're all the same. We should celebrate diversity, too.

MobileInfantry wrote:

As for the language, we speak English as primary, sorry but that's not going to change. The idea of having Public representitives speaking only Irish is idiotic, its a bit late in time now to enforce a redundant language. Sure, its a shame, no one denying that.

How about reinvigorating it, at least? Would you prefer we forget about our history completely?

MobileInfantry wrote:

Now the difference here is that given the global use of English, its important or at least alot easier to learn english. Try comparing the global uses of English and Irish?

Yes, but I'm not talking about getting other countries to learn Irish, I'm talking about the Irish people being able to speak their own language.

MobileInfantry wrote:

If theres anything as bad as trying to fit into a clique, its wanting to be different just for the sake of being different.

If you say so

MobileInfantry wrote:

You threw away any sign of a reasonable response to my statement. Nice to see your inability to construct any argument veiled by my apparent lack of sense.

So I suppose your logic, which is indeed stupid, would fall on deaf ears?

I'm able to construct an argument, I just wasn't prepared to engage in one with someone who can't talk like a grown-up, and who calls people morons for having contrasting opinions to their own. It kinda shows who the actual moron is, and the actual one who can't construct an argument, since you're the one who had to call me a moron and an idiot rather than just address my points.

MobileInfantry wrote:

Care to explain what's wrong with us liking the same music and wearing the same clothes as the English? Who, to be honest, would be expected in fact to be almost identical to us with regards to music, food, clothing, and recreation.

Come again with your mature views of us disentegrating as a country simply because we wear the same clothes as English people.

There's nothing wrong with it, I listen to English music, wear the same clothes as the English, but at the same time I listen to Irish music, try to learn the Irish language, remember Irish history. I think it's important not to let our own culture be monopolised by another. But clearly you don't, so, you carry on.

segadreamcast · 21-08-2005 6:59pm

mickd wrote:

I think people need to drop the psychological baggage that was result of learning Irish at school. We are constantly being told what an confident people we are but just mention the Irish language and its switch into juvenile mode "I hate Irish blah blah". Listen your an adult now wheather or not you want to learn this language is up to you, but drop the kiddie nonsense. The Irish language is part of our identity and it is a viable working language. Yes the state education system made a bags out of teaching it but on the other hand other state ventures such as TG4 has made great strides in making the language appealling. Regrettably audience figures are low. If the eduacators put Ros na Run on the syllabus this would stimulate interest.

Mmm, that must be why they absorb/waste 20 PERCENT of the overall broadcasting budget and get only 5 percent of the audience in return eh? Real viable. Let's see them go private and do it without government aid.

Gwyllin · 21-08-2005 8:21pm

This getting quite heated..

Odaise Gaelach · 21-08-2005 10:14pm

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

Now I think it's time for everyone to calm down and take a few deep breaths...

Shyster · 21-08-2005 10:38pm

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

This is turning into a very tired topic everywhere. My 2c:
Make it optional for the leaving, then the bitterness and complaints would die down and those of us who want to speak irish could do so in peace.

Gael · 22-08-2005 6:11pm

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

Shyster wrote:

This is turning into a very tired topic everywhere. My 2c:
Make it optional for the leaving, then the bitterness and complaints would die down and those of us who want to speak irish could do so in peace.

No 'cause the angst teens will just find something else to be "oppressed" by. Oh the humanity!

Dalta · 22-08-2005 8:22pm

This debate is stupid, people who hate Irish aren't going to learn it and are just going to bitch and criticise. People who like Irish are just gonna call the other crowd West Brits and look down on them. Nothing comes out of it, like a hell of a lot of debates, so why don't we lock this stupid topic, let the West Brits go off and speak English and let the RA heads go off and learn/speak Irish?

Or would that be bad because good might come from it?

Gwyllin · 22-08-2005 9:13pm

RA-heads? Now we're becoming offensive too.

mickd · 22-08-2005 9:42pm

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

NoelRock wrote:

Mmm, that must be why they absorb/waste 20 PERCENT of the overall broadcasting budget and get only 5 percent of the audience in return eh? Real viable. Let's see them go private and do it without government aid.

Obviously they would not survive then again public service broadcasting is not exclusively about economics. TG4 is providing a public service for people who communicate through the medium of Irish and for people who have an appreciation for the langugage.

kleefarr · 22-08-2005 9:54pm

Is it compulsory in school?
My son is starting school in September and I would rather he learnt a more useful language like Spanish/French/German/Italian. I could see him getting more use out of these languages when he started to travel the world.

Shyster wrote:

Make it optional for the leaving, then the bitterness and complaints would die down and those of us who want to speak irish could do so in peace.

Exactly.

mickd · 22-08-2005 11:27pm

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

These languages are already studied at school so that question makes no sense. Yes Irish is compulsory because we live in Ireland and our nationality is Irish.

Sleepy · 22-08-2005 11:53pm

DaveMcG wrote:

No, it's not relevent to our daily lives, but it should be. It's part of our culture, and it's a shame to see so many people trying to get rid of it. Without our history and language, what makes us different from England? I'm not saying "I hate the Brits", but our society is following theirs; we wear the same clothes, listen to the same music, speak the same language... We're disintegrating as a country! I think the language is very important and should be mandatory still. However, there should be a MAJOR reform in the education system that puts more emphasis on oral Irish at a young age, and which links up with using it in our daily lives, such as maybe having the Gardaí speak as Gaeilge firstly, and English secondly. Like someone said, other countries in Europe speak English fluently, and then can turn around to their mate and speak in their own tongue. It's embaressing that such a small % can speak Irish(myself included). I'm going to keep learning it, but it's alot harder now that I'm not in school, etc.

That is the most naive post I think I've ever read on boards.ie. Do you think our women should still be dancing at the crossroads on their way home from morning mass as well?

You like Irish, fair enough, that's your privilege. Believing that because you feel the language identifies you in some way this is solid reason to force it upon the rest of the country is not. Frankly, the embaressing thing is not that so few of us have any Irish (though it is a slamming indictment of our education system), but that there are so many still prepared to force their beliefs on others and encourage the government to discriminate against those that disagree with them.

mickd wrote:

Listen your an adult now wheather or not you want to learn this language is up to you, but drop the kiddie nonsense.

I'm 25, I left school a long time ago. I was never given the choice as to whether I "learnt" Irish or not thanks to people like you. Who's the childish one: the bully or the person who raises their voice when their education is being damaged?

The Irish language is part of our identity and it is a viable working language. Yes the state education system made a bags out of teaching it but on the other hand other state ventures such as TG4 has made great strides in making the language appealling. Regrettably audience figures are low. If the eduacators put Ros na Run on the syllabus this would stimulate interest.

The Irish language in no way identifies me as an Irishman, so no, it's not part of our identity. It might be part of yours but please don't presume to speak for the rest of us. The notion that it's a viable working language is utterly laughable. We spend millions of taxpayers money propping up your hobby every year, force it on schoolchildren as one of the determinents of the future success and it's still dying out. Do you honestly believe that this money and education time couldn't be better spent?

mickd · 23-08-2005 1:22am

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

Sleepy wrote:

I'm 25, I left school a long time ago. I was never given the choice as to whether I "learnt" Irish or not thanks to people like you. Who's the childish one: the bully or the person who raises their voice when their education is being damaged?

The Irish language in no way identifies me as an Irishman, so no, it's not part of our identity. It might be part of yours but please don't presume to speak for the rest of us. The notion that it's a viable working language is utterly laughable. We spend millions of taxpayers money propping up your hobby every year, force it on schoolchildren as one of the determinents of the future success and it's still dying out. Do you honestly believe that this money and education time couldn't be better spent?

Firstly I would never presume to speak for everybody so excuse my use of 'our' in that context. In hindsight I was a bit extreme in my first post with regard to language and the effects it had on young minds in school. That was the fault of the people of the day (legislators, dept of education etc) not the language. People need to move on from this. Yes serious mistakes have been made in the promotion and use of Irish. I live in a Gaeltacht area where Irish is in daily use so I dont regard it as a hobby. Its a shame that so many people have such contempt for the Irish language even though Irish is their nationality. I believe honest attempts are being made to address past mistakes and they should be encouraged rather than dismissed.

kleefarr · 23-08-2005 9:26am

mickd wrote:

These languages are already studied at school so that question makes no sense. Yes Irish is compulsory because we live in Ireland and our nationality is Irish.

May be I should have worded it differently. (the only question was the first part anyway)
I would rather they concentrate on one or more of the other languages instead of Irish. I don't think Irish will be beneficial to them when they get older.
Irish may be your nationality, not everyone in Ireland is Irish and not all Irish believe they should or want to learn Irish.
People should be free to choose, that is the only fair way.

mickd · 23-08-2005 10:40am

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

kleefarr wrote:

Irish may be your nationality, not everyone in Ireland is Irish and not all Irish believe they should or want to learn Irish.
People should be free to choose, that is the only fair way.

The same can be said about any other country but its not the case.

segadreamcast · 23-08-2005 10:45am

mickd wrote:

Obviously they would not survive then again public service broadcasting is not exclusively about economics. TG4 is providing a public service for people who communicate through the medium of Irish and for people who have an appreciation for the langugage.

Thus proving that it's watched by a tiny minority, and that the language is spoken by an even smaller minority - therefore it is surely proving that, for the majority of this country, Irish is no longer relevant to our daily lives?

Sleepy · 23-08-2005 12:25pm

mickd wrote:

I live in a Gaeltacht area where Irish is in daily use so I dont regard it as a hobby. Its a shame that so many people have such contempt for the Irish language even though Irish is their nationality. I believe honest attempts are being made to address past mistakes and they should be encouraged rather than dismissed.

So for you, Irish is a lifestyle choice and is therefore relevant to your daily life. For the vast majority of Irish people however, it's no more than a subject they didn't like in school.

If money grew on trees I wouldn't have a problem with TG4, the grants to Gaeltacht areas, the necessity for government departments to publish everything as Gaeilge (which, as I've mentioned before, is usually a very poor translation anyway due to the lack of modern words in Irish), etc. etc. etc. Unfortunately, however, money doesn't grow on trees and all of these things hold a high opportunity cost to society as a whole.

The first attempt to address past mistakes is to make Irish an optional choice for both Junior and Leaving Cert level (I have no problem with it being taught at a primary level, primarily for the strongest argument made in defence of the language imho: it's cultural significance) and to remove it as a job criteria for anything but the position of Irish teacher. The things that could be done with an extra 5 hours a week over 5 years in secondary education would be incredible. You could use an hour of that time to give students proper PE classes and reduce the future tax burden that's going to be caused by obesity levels, use another hour a week for drivers education and reduce the numbers of road deaths due to poor driving standards in this country, use another hour to provide our children with proper sex education etc. etc.

Gah, I've gone off on another rant...

kleefarr · 23-08-2005 4:10pm

mickd wrote:

The same can be said about any other country but its not the case.

I went to school in Cyprus for a while and I didn't have to learn Greek.

As has been said, freedom to choose either way would make most people happy I think. I don't hold anything against people who speak or want to learn to speak Irish, but I think it's unreasonable to expect everyone to learn it regardless.

No hard feelings!

mickd · 24-08-2005 12:37am

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

Oh none at all after all this is just a exchange of views.

vector · 24-08-2005 12:39am

Is it still possible to address post in Irish? (and I mean beyond the gaeltacht and pale, BAC 1 and all that)

plink · 24-08-2005 12:52am

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

yep i feel that it is

without the irish language we wouldn't, individually or socially be the same. it's everywhere around us - in our names and place names; even the way in which we speak is effected. if you were to compare an english person and an irish person linguistically, i think you would see that the irish person uses the language in a deeper way than just words and sentences, and this comes from the colourful history of the irish language. we for example use more adjectives than say the english, as we would have with spoken irish. even gramatically - for example (although this is bad english grammar) - "i do be"...now while that is very bad english, it would make sense in irish - the aimsir láithreach....a continual present tense that we don't have in the english language.

this may all seem like waffle to some of you, it makes sense to me

but yes, i think the irish language is important.

cat

mickd · 24-08-2005 12:59am

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

NoelRock wrote:

that the language is spoken by an even smaller minority - therefore it is surely proving that, for the majority of this country, Irish is no longer relevant to our daily lives?

The following information comes from the CSO
2002 Census of Population Volume 11 - Irish Language

1.57 million people can speak Irish

Just over 1.57 million people aged 3 years and over were able to speak Irish in 2002 compared with 1.43 million in 1996. However, in percentage terms there was a slight decline from 43.5 per cent in 1996 to 42.8 per cent in 2002. Ability to speak Irish was higher among females (45.9%) than males (39.7%).

This information is contained in Census 2002 Volume 11 – Irish Language, which gives further detailed results of the census conducted on 28 April 2002. This report contains the final population figures classified by ability to speak Irish and frequency of speaking it for detailed territorial divisions in the country (see Editor’s note).

Ability varies with age

Ability to speak Irish was highest among the school-going population with over two-thirds of 10-19 year olds recorded as being able to speak the language.

Ability declines in the immediate post-education age groups but picks up again for 45-54 year olds.

Females outperformed males in each age group in 2002 - the differential being most pronounced in the 15-19 age group.

Making a blanket statement about the relevance of Irish and then applying to the majority of people in this country is subjective completely ignores diversity and is every bit as extreme as the so called "gaeltacht facisists" who tried to bully people into speaking language in the past. I believe it is relevant. The fact we are having this debate that you started means it is relevant and the above stats support this

mickd · 24-08-2005 1:34am

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

NoelRock wrote:

Thus proving that it's watched by a tiny minority

Like I said public service broadcasting, If we used your rationale BBC2 would have been closed a long time ago. Now its recognized as the finest TV channel in the world beacuse of its programme output. TG4 operates on a similar line. Not everything that enriches the mind can be measured by economics.

mickd · 24-08-2005 1:47am

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

Sleepy wrote:

So for you, Irish is a lifestyle choice and is therefore relevant to your daily life. For the vast majority of Irish people however, it's no more than a subject they didn't like in school.

If money grew on trees I wouldn't have a problem with TG4, the grants to Gaeltacht areas, the necessity for government departments to publish everything as Gaeilge (which, as I've mentioned before, is usually a very poor translation anyway due to the lack of modern words in Irish), etc. etc. etc. Unfortunately, however, money doesn't grow on trees and all of these things hold a high opportunity cost to society as a whole.

The first attempt to address past mistakes is to make Irish an optional choice for both Junior and Leaving Cert level (I have no problem with it being taught at a primary level, primarily for the strongest argument made in defence of the language imho: it's cultural significance) and to remove it as a job criteria for anything but the position of Irish teacher. The things that could be done with an extra 5 hours a week over 5 years in secondary education would be incredible. You could use an hour of that time to give students proper PE classes and reduce the future tax burden that's going to be caused by obesity levels, use another hour a week for drivers education and reduce the numbers of road deaths due to poor driving standards in this country, use another hour to provide our children with proper sex education etc. etc.

Gah, I've gone off on another rant... [/QUOTE

Most of you arguments here are subjective, like speaking for the vast majority of irish people. There is no proof that spending on Irish holds a high opportunity cost to society as a whole yet another blanket statement. Finally the fact that people are lazy and don't exercise, can't practice safe sex and are crap drivers has nothing to do with Irish being taught at school

Stick to the issue, dont be clutching at straws

Sleepy · 24-08-2005 1:49am

mickd wrote:

The following information comes from the CSO
2002 Census of Population Volume 11 - Irish Language

1.57 million people can speak Irish

Correction: 1.57 people *claim* to be able to speak Irish or "1.57 million people can string together a few sentences of Irish". There is no way that a third of our population are even close to proficiency (never mind fluency) in Irish.

Making a blanket statement about the relevance of Irish and then applying to the majority of people in this country is subjective completely ignores diversity and is every bit as extreme as the so called "gaeltacht facisists" who tried to bully people into speaking language in the past. I believe it is relevant. The fact we are having this debate that you started means it is relevant and the above stats support this

The fact we're having a debate as to the relevance of the Irish language means that it's relevant? I'm sorry, I can't follow your logic there at all. The Irish language simply isn't relevant to the daily lives of the majority of this country. Even your own data demonstrates that a minority even have some level of Irish, which, given that it's census information, really doesn't tell us anything about their proficiency, interest, desire to keep the language going or whether they consider it "relevant". So given that a majority of the country don't claim to have Irish, can we extrapolate from this that it's irrelevant to the majority of us?

Sleepy · 24-08-2005 2:00am

mickd wrote:

Sleepy wrote:

Most of you arguments here are subjective, like speaking for the vast majority of irish people. There is no proof that spending on Irish holds a high opportunity cost to society as a whole yet another blanket statement. Finally the fact that people are lazy and don't exercise, can't practice safe sex and are crap drivers has nothing to do with Irish being taught at school

Stick to the issue, dont be clutching at straws

Your own census data supports my assertations that Irish isn't relevant to nearly two thirds of our population. The poll attached to this thread still shows a majority don't consider it relevant *despite* the porting of this thread into a forum for Irish speakers or those with an interest in the language. I think it's clear that those that consider it relevant are in the minority.

Any governmental spending, or any spending whatsoever infact, holds an opportunity cost. That's an economic fact. The opportunity cost of education in one subject is the time that could be spent teaching another. The issues I mentioned were just some examples of how I feel that time could be better spent.

I don't see how I'm leaving the issue behind. I'm justifying my position for the removal of the props the government is trying to use to keep a dying language alive. I believe that what we're doing to keep the Irish language on it's life-support system is wrong. I believe it's detrimental to the education of our children and that it unfairly discriminates against those that don't happen to be gifted at languages or those that would rather apply themselves to more practical areas of education.

And I'm sorry if you dislike that but I haven't seen a single poster present a solid justification for the status quo.

sceptre · 24-08-2005 2:48am

mickd wrote:

1.57 million people can speak Irish

I'm afraid that's a rather potentially misleading blanket statement where used to indicate actual usage despite your having successfully substantiated it as factual according to the census.

How many of them are over 18 and how many people actually use it outside of school?

mickd · 24-08-2005 10:41am

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

Sleepy wrote:

mickd wrote:

Your own census data supports my assertations that Irish isn't relevant to nearly two thirds of our population. The poll attached to this thread still shows a majority don't consider it relevant *despite* the porting of this thread into a forum for Irish speakers or those with an interest in the language. I think it's clear that those that consider it relevant are in the minority.

Any governmental spending, or any spending whatsoever infact, holds an opportunity cost. That's an economic fact. The opportunity cost of education in one subject is the time that could be spent teaching another. The issues I mentioned were just some examples of how I feel that time could be better spent.

I don't see how I'm leaving the issue behind. I'm justifying my position for the removal of the props the government is trying to use to keep a dying language alive. I believe that what we're doing to keep the Irish language on it's life-support system is wrong. I believe it's detrimental to the education of our children and that it unfairly discriminates against those that don't happen to be gifted at languages or those that would rather apply themselves to more practical areas of education.

And I'm sorry if you dislike that but I haven't seen a single poster present a solid justification for the status quo.

The census data states that one third of the population can speak Irish relevance is not mentioned or measured.

The poll attached to this thread tells us nothing about the relevance of the Irish in this country. The result applies to the people who subscribe to this forum, it cannot be applied to the nation as whole.

There is no proof that Irish is detrimental to the education of our children. Mixed ablilty is a fact of life in any education system. There is no cogent evidence that the time spent teaching Irish puts children at a disadvantage.

It is my contention that Irish is relevant to our daily lives, I am sorry to inform you but the language is alive and will be long after we have died.

Sleepy · 25-08-2005 1:28am

mickd wrote:

The census data states that one third of the population can speak Irish relevance is not mentioned or measured.

If only one third of the population can "speak" Irish, that leaves two thirds that can't. If you can't speak the language, it can't be relevant to your life. Therefore, Irish is irrelevant to the majority of the country. Quad Erat Demonstrandum tbh.

The poll attached to this thread tells us nothing about the relevance of the Irish in this country. The result applies to the people who subscribe to this forum, it cannot be applied to the nation as whole.

Well, given that this thread is in an area that would be predjudiced towards one result and that the other result is still winning I felt it was worth pointing out. One could statistically apply it to the nation as a whole, though not with any degree of accuracy.

There is no proof that Irish is detrimental to the education of our children. Mixed ablilty is a fact of life in any education system. There is no cogent evidence that the time spent teaching Irish puts children at a disadvantage.

Re-read my previous post. There is an opportunity cost associated with every subject on the course. Therefore, teaching children Irish puts them at a disadvantage in the other subjects that they could be receiving an education in during this time. In my opinion there are far more important subjects than Irish that are not included in the curriculum. I gave a few examples of them in the first post. To my mind, it is more important for future generations to learn how to drive from a proper instructor (rather than through their parents ham-fisted attempts to teach them to drive and a few "clean-up" lessons to pass the test - most experts would support this view) than it is for them to have the vague understanding of Irish that they currently receive. One is a nice thing to have, the other could save lives. I apply the same logic to proper sex education, and again, the same applies to proper instruction in living a healthy lifestyle (PE mixed with dietary education etc.)

You may disagree but I believe that allowing Irish children to grow up to be obese, bad drivers that are ignorant of the risks of std's and unplanned pregnancies is worse than allowing them to grow up with no more than a primary school education in Irish. All three of these things could be taught properly during second level in the same time as is currently spent on Irish so they are a valid opportunity cost to apply.

It is my contention that Irish is relevant to our daily lives, I am sorry to inform you but the language is alive and will be long after we have died.

Your contention is wrong. The language may survive another few generations mickd but I honestly can't see it being anything more than something studied by academics in a century's time.

mickd · 25-08-2005 10:28am

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

Just noticed that more than once you have given yourself the lofty role of purporting to speak for the majority of people in this country. Relevance has not been measured. These stats server a guide as to how many people speak the language

Yet again you draw down subjects as obesity, sex education, and driving in a bid to support a daft assertion. If you can show me a report or research where there is a direct relation to the time spent teaching the Irish language and Irish children being at disadvantage in other areas I will concede this. Until then it remains a diversion that has nothing to do with this topic.

Until the Irish people decide to remove the position of the Irish language in the constitution, the EU reverses the decision to have Irish as a working language. Until there is public clamour to have funding for Irish removed which there isn'nt, until we drop the everyday terms we use to mark our individuality such as taioseach,dail,garda,craic etc then I believe that Irish is relevant to our everyday lives. Your prediction about it being anything more that studied by academics in a hundred years time has first mentioned a hundred years ago and has still to materialise

Sleepy · 26-08-2005 2:56am

mickd, will you read my posts? Or is English only being your second language causing problems for you? :rolleyes:

If one cannot speak a language it cannot be of any relevance to one's daily life. Can you argue against this assertation?

Not by logic or reason, no. You can try emotive rhetoric, national pride etc. but it doesn't actually discredit the argument. You can take the smart alec approach of "it'd be of relevance to your life if you were stuck in a position where you really needed to speak in that language" but in reality that circumstance doesn't exist (or has been artificially created as a requirement to enter careers it's completely unnecessary for).

If the majority of the people can't speak Irish.
And not being able to speak Irish makes it irrelevant to your daily life.
Then Irish is irrelevant to the daily life of the majority of the people.
(where are you getting lost here?)

If one subject is taught in school, it is taught at the opportunity cost of teaching another. Can you argue against this assertation?
Unless you can disprove the existence of opportunity costs, no, you can't.

And do you really think that during the *hundreds* of hours spent teaching Irish to secondary school students they couldn't learn *anything* more beneficial than a language that is barely spoken it the country of it's origin, never mind anywhere else in the world?

T.J. · 26-08-2005 12:15pm

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

sceptre wrote:

I'm afraid that's a rather potentially misleading blanket statement where used to indicate actual usage despite your having successfully substantiated it as factual according to the census.

How many of them are over 18 and how many people actually use it outside of school?

Nobody said it was there first language but in the last number of years Irish has become "cooler" so maybe in a few years when current students leave school Irish will become a regularly used language. In Luxembourg they have their own language which is spoken less than Irish in this country but it is still recgonised by the E.U.. Now that Irish is an official E.U. language maybe the process of it being used every day will be accelerated so lets not write it off just yet

T.J. · 26-08-2005 12:18pm

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

Sleepy wrote:

If the majority of the people can't speak Irish.
And not being able to speak Irish makes it irrelevant to your daily life.
Then Irish is irrelevant to the daily life of the majority of the people.
(where are you getting lost here?)
QUOTE]

Like I have meantioned before the native language of Luxembourg, Basque, Scottish etc. are not spoken by the majority of people does that make them irrelevant? Not to the people who do use them it doesn't. Just because Irish isin't relevant to YOU what gives you the right to trample on others beliefs. Have you not heard of Nazism. Quite alot of people would hate to see Irish die out therefore IT IS RELEVANT TO THEM. So I think the question is where are YOU getting lost?

Sleepy · 26-08-2005 2:56pm

T.J. - The irony of calling me a Nazi in this thread is beautiful. Google National Socialism and learn what the word Nazi means before hurling it at people who's views you disagree with as an intended insult. The imposition of the Irish language on our population would actually be far closer to National Socialistic beliefs than my own would be.

Do Luxembourg, the Basque Country or Scotland force their children to use their historical language as one of their selection criterias for advancement in their education? Do they block people from entering the public sector if they can't speak it?

I am not saying that Irish should be banned, nor did I say I would like to see it die out. I simply believe that it's promotion in Ireland has a negative impact on our lives because of the lost opportunities to develop ourselves in other ways. You are, and rightfully are, as free to practice your hobbies as I should be to practice mine. Irish is relevant to the lives of the *minority* of this country so whom is it that's trampling on who's beliefs? Though I believe the imposition of Irish on the lives of our population is more a matter of trampling on our rights (the right to education and the right to self-determination) than our beliefs.

Grudaire · 26-08-2005 10:03pm

Ehh does nobody here feel that the only thing that seperate's us from other country's is our language? do you want to be part of the EU, or Irish? you can be both, but Irish gives us our own identity.... we'd just be another state in the EU. beside's you don't mind saying pog mo thoin to anyone?

mickd · 27-08-2005 11:07am

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

Sleepy wrote:

mickd, will you read my posts? Or is English only being your second language causing problems for you? :rolleyes:

If one cannot speak a language it cannot be of any relevance to one's daily life. Can you argue against this assertation?

Not by logic or reason, no. You can try emotive rhetoric, national pride etc. but it doesn't actually discredit the argument. You can take the smart alec approach of "it'd be of relevance to your life if you were stuck in a position where you really needed to speak in that language" but in reality that circumstance doesn't exist (or has been artificially created as a requirement to enter careers it's completely unnecessary for).

If the majority of the people can't speak Irish.
And not being able to speak Irish makes it irrelevant to your daily life.
Then Irish is irrelevant to the daily life of the majority of the people.
(where are you getting lost here?)

If one subject is taught in school, it is taught at the opportunity cost of teaching another. Can you argue against this assertation?
Unless you can disprove the existence of opportunity costs, no, you can't.

And do you really think that during the *hundreds* of hours spent teaching Irish to secondary school students they couldn't learn *anything* more beneficial than a language that is barely spoken it the country of it's origin, never mind anywhere else in the world?

Ah now we are getting places, I was thinking when you would resort to personal invective to try an put across flimsy arguments. I cannot speak any other European language that still doesn't mean they are not relevant to me. Relevance is a subjective term that is open to interpretation

You are one who resorts to emotive rhetortic to put across your point e.g "our childern" " bully" etc

That notion of oppertunity cost so your saying for instance that Maths is taught at the expense of English. If we follow that route we would have no education system at all. One question where is the research to prove this theory in the Irish education system??

sceptre · 29-08-2005 12:17am

mickd wrote:

Ah now we are getting places, I was thinking when you would resort to personal invective to try an put across flimsy arguments. I cannot speak any other European language that still doesn't mean they are not relevant to me. Relevance is a subjective term that is open to interpretation

You are one who resorts to emotive rhetortic to put across your point e.g "our childern" " bully" etc

You ignored my simple question too and I didn't say boo to you. It's at the bottom of page 4. Without an answer your 1.57 million figure is worth precisely nothing. I'm disappinted. Perhaps you just missed it.

kleefarr · 29-08-2005 9:35am

Just a thought. Shouldn't this discussion be in Irish?

Sleepy · 29-08-2005 10:22am

Not at all. I'd say that a distinctly different history and outlook on life seperates us from the countries on the continent and the UK far more than a language that most of this country can't speak, never mind use on a regular basis.

Well, that and the sea surrounding us

Sleepy · 29-08-2005 10:41am

mickd wrote:

Ah now we are getting places, I was thinking when you would resort to personal invective to try an put across flimsy arguments.

:rolleyes: Says the man who hasn't put forth a single solid argument in this thread.

I cannot speak any other European language that still doesn't mean they are not relevant to me. Relevance is a subjective term that is open to interpretation

And let me guess, your loose definition of "relevant" is the only one we should listen to? Are you trying to say that you can claim the language is relevant to the majority of this country, despite the fact they can't even speak it? And you call my arguments flimsy? :rolleyes:

You are one who resorts to emotive rhetortic to put across your point e.g "our childern" " bully" etc

So the fact that I feel strongly about this invalidates my argument somehow? Let me ask you this: if it's not our children that suffer from a poorly chosen curriculum for their leaving certificate, who is it? If it's not our children who can't follow their chosen career path because some politician thinks it'll win him a few votes amongst the gaelgeoirs to force an irrelevant language to be part of the job criteria, who is it?

What would you call it when one section of the community (a minority at that) forces it's beliefs on the rest? It's hardly democracy. And from a quick word search on this thread you've used the word bully as much as I.

Stop trying to worm away from the points presented to you by criticising my posting style.

That notion of oppertunity cost so your saying for instance that Maths is taught at the expense of English. If we follow that route we would have no education system at all. One question where is the research to prove this theory in the Irish education system??

One doesn't need research to prove that one subject is taught at the expense of another. Your correct in your assertion that Maths is taught at the expense of English. If it were scrapped and the time freed up, English could be taught to a much higher level.

However, numeracy and literacy are considered to be the corner stones of an educations (making up the "three R's"). As such, we find a balance between the subjects and allow them each some time. We're now approaching the crux of my argument and one point I've put at you time and time again in this thread: do you believe that Irish, a language spoken by a minority of this country (according to your own stats, which as sceptre and I pointed out, seem to over-state the true levels of 'proficiency' in that language) and with no practical use to anyone interested in following a career outside of academia is more important than sex education, driver's education, IT, health and fitness education or any one of a miriad of subjects which are not currently being taught at a proficient (or any) standard?

Yes, it would be *nice* to have a population that could speak our historical language. It would be *nice* to have a population that could read Latin too, however, it's simply not practical and neither is the inclusion of Irish on our national curriculum.

mickd · 29-08-2005 11:20am

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

sceptre wrote:

I'm afraid that's a rather potentially misleading blanket statement where used to indicate actual usage despite your having successfully substantiated it as factual according to the census.

How many of them are over 18 and how many people actually use it outside of school?

well if you go to www.cso.ie you will get the answers

mickd · 29-08-2005 12:07pm

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

Sleepy wrote:

So the fact that I feel strongly about this invalidates my argument somehow? If it's not our children who can't follow their chosen career path

Where is evidence that children can't persue their chosen career?

Yes You do feel strongly about the presence of Irish in the education system. A feeling that has no basis in fact. No amount of red herrings is going to change that. There is one area of education where that economic idea of cost oppertunity has been applied its the university sector and the status of Irish Universities is rapidly declining as a result. If large numbers of people were failing Leaving Cert Irish, thereby not being able to enter university or further education as result your theory may have some credence but this is simply not the case. I am getting this notion that your gripes are based on personal experience if that is so well don't apply them to everybody else.

mickd · 29-08-2005 2:08pm

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

kleefarr wrote:

Just a thought. Shouldn't this discussion be in Irish?

A valid point!!

T.J. · 29-08-2005 2:29pm

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

Sleepy wrote:

Do Luxembourg, the Basque Country or Scotland force their children to use their historical language as one of their selection criterias for advancement in their education? Do they block people from entering the public sector if they can't speak it?

Firstly I was mearly pointing out the similarities between what you are saying and Nazism. It was not intended as an insult although I'm not too worried if it was considered one.

Secondly Irish is one of our official languages set it the constitution which was agreed upon by the majority of the country. Just because they couldn't speak it didn't make it irrelevant to them. Much like Flemish in Belgium as it too is an official language which is compulsory even though the majority don't speak it and they too have to learn both to enter the public sector.

Thirdly the question is if Irish is relevant to us not if the way it is taught is the right way. Besides it is a european language now and if you are forced to learn French or German for the junior cert why not Irish

sceptre · 29-08-2005 3:31pm

mickd wrote:

well if you go to www.cso.ie you will get the answers

That's more than a bit lazy. You could say the same about me but I'm the guy asking a relevant question, you're the one advancing a case. I'll mark that down as "not proven" and "question avoided/deflection attempted by the case proponent" then.

mickd · 29-08-2005 4:06pm

No, it's not relevant to our daily lives and our Irish identity

All I stated is the number of people who speak Irish. You asked a question about usage and I stated that the results are available from the same source.

Ron DMC · 29-08-2005 11:39pm

Bheadh sé i bhfad níos éasca daoine a fhágáil chun a cinní fhéin a dhéanamh faoin teanga agus gan a bheith ag argóint faoi ar an idirlíon. Faigh reidh leis an 'thread' seo sula dtéann sé thar fóir.

vector · 30-08-2005 11:48am

Irish should be taught differently in secondary school

It should be taught in the same way as french, german... using real phrases and not assuming an existing familiarity, at ordinary level anyway.

and people should stop talking about people havin learning irish for "12 years"
how many think they actaully learned Irish in primary school?

It should be just equal to french, taught in the same way, and dare I say it optional, and it not optional then certainly not required for entrance to the NUI.

Is the Irish language still relevant to our daily lives?

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