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Irish language - Revamp in Education.

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    #32
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    dlofnep wrote: »
    I'm all for removing the stigma (which isn't entirely widespread) held by some for the Irish language.

    i have not met one person who was anti irish language and not anti irish in general

    that is to say - and there are polls to back this up - about 90% of ireland would support irish
    they wouldnt use it daily or even yearly, but they have a genuine grá for it.


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    #33
    me_right_one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭me_right_one


    Whoa, relax there fruitlover! We're only talking!


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    #34
    Redbhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 149 ✭✭Redbhoy


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    ----
    an all irish speaking population is not possible - face facts


    Nothing is impossible. Check out Eliezer Ben-Yehuda's efforts with the Hebrew language

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language


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    #35
    An gal gréine
    Registered Users Posts: 941 ✭✭✭An gal gréine


    Yes, the polls have always been positive but we dont have the WILL that the Jews had in the 1940's to bring it back. I think there's still a certain shame attached to it, which goes back to the immediate post-famine when the language was associated with poverty and backwardness. The Gaelsciolleanna boom has been very encouraging but it cant stand alone in society.


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    #36
    Redbhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 149 ✭✭Redbhoy


    Maybe if we revise our history of the 1840s and interpret it as what really happened,

    http://skinflicks.blogspot.com/2009/01/lets-all-stop-denying-holocaust.html

    we'll have enough anger to want to be a proud nation of Irish rather than people with an inferiority complex.


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    #37
    An gal gréine
    Registered Users Posts: 941 ✭✭✭An gal gréine


    Great piece of writing, Redbhoy. Yes, it boils down to how deeply do we want it. Our citizens tell the polls of their grá for the language but if there was any passion there, the whole situation would be transformed, fairly quickly too.


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    #38
    Redbhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 149 ✭✭Redbhoy


    Just in case you're crediting me with that blog, I only posted the link. Cant take credit for someone elses work. :(

    Anyone I know or speak to say that they want to be able to speak Irish and they would love to see everyone speaking it but when I tell the about the various ways in which they could learn it they cry off bein gtoo busy in work or with other things.
    Maybe this reccession might get people turning their backs on the God of Money and ploughing some of their time into their language, heritage and culture?


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    #39
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    hebrew and irish are not comparable - on any level

    and i hope we dont have to do what they ''had'' to do to get their language and ''country'' back - in short ****ing israeli's
    mass graves, mass killings, mass emigration - plus it was not the first time they were persecuted

    as oppossed to the famine - which was terrible and a large part to blame on the food being exported and the british in general

    but you cant compare the two


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    #40
    An gal gréine
    Registered Users Posts: 941 ✭✭✭An gal gréine


    Nobody was comparing the 2 languages and politics did'nt have to be brought into it. They had the will and the passion to revive their language. We are lacking in this department.


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    #41
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    ''look at what .... did with hebrew''
    and
    a link comparing the famine to the holocuast

    ye - my bad no one was comparing the two and no one brought politics into it
    my point is it was a lot more than they had the will to do it and we dont - a lot more


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    #42
    An gal gréine
    Registered Users Posts: 941 ✭✭✭An gal gréine


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    hebrew and irish are not comparable - on any level


    My point is that your comparing of the 2 languages is irrelevant, and de-politicising it can only be a help.


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    #43
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    i wasnt the one to compare the two - i was stating they can not be compared

    also - irish is not politicised


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    #44
    Cjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭Cjoe


    Hey lads have a look at blas on the bbc northern ireland website. Great refresher course with almost 30 ten minute shows you can download.
    Giota beag and giota beag eile are the downloadable shows
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/irish/blas/index.shtml

    I really love irish, and can hold a conversation now after doing a few refresher courses. I find myself throwing in a few words and sentences among friends and after the initial "what are you at" look i have the girlfiend and friends doing the same because I know they want to. You just have to get over the initial hurdle of embaressment. The big thing i believe is parents. Once a child is brought up with Irish ealy that is a fantastic start. Then a decent education system would help!
    Maybe 4 compulsory weeks during a school year in a ghealtacht would help (which everyone ends up enjoying).At the start of the year, two weeks in the middle and final week there aswell. That would be a good start without upsetting too many things/people and then take it from there.


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    #45
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    money ^

    otherwise great idea.


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    #46
    Redbhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 149 ✭✭Redbhoy


    I agree with conchubar1 there. Money would be an obstacle as regards sending kids to the Gaeltacht for 4 weeks a year.
    I try and stick a cupla focail into sentences when speaking to friends and a few of them would add in a few when replying. If more people could get over the initial awkward/embarassed feeling we could soon spread those cupla focail into more elaborate phrases... and then onto fluency ;) .


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    #47
    Cjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭Cjoe


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    money ^

    otherwise great idea.

    Money would no doubt be a problem. But it will appeal to both sides. THose who really want immersion learning will be happy about such a positive step towards a more Irish orientated schooling and people who are un decided or really dont care surely wont mind the few weeks out of a school year to let their kid study in a ghaeltacht.
    It is such shame the goverment hasnt a penny in its pockets to put money towards something like this.
    Maybe all the un employed teachers out there who have half decent Irish should get on their thinking caps about going acorss the country and doing an after school irish class. There is a market there for it i feel.


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    #48
    deirdremf
    Registered Users Posts: 1,871 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Rather than trying to turn all schools into Gaelscoileanna overnight, what I think we need is for education through Irish on demand - in other words, the same as is now available in English.
    If you want a gaelscoil for your child, well just go to the nearest inspector's office (or write to them) and state that is what you want. This should be a right, but it is not at the moment.
    Until we get that service, we need to collect money to set up our own gaelscoil in each district.
    My suggestion here is that we could collect money through the schools that are already in existence, say ask each family to make a small donation each week (maybe one euro), with 30,000 kids attending gaelscoileanna at present, and say 3 kids per family, that would work out at €10,000 per week, multiply by 30 school weeks a year (or is that 39?) and you could collect up to €300,000 per annum if everyone chipped in.
    Even at €100,000 per annum, you could part-fund a few schools - and as soon as a school is up and running, the local politicians will press for recognition of the school, as they will not want to antagonise the parents who are potential voters.


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    #49
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Turning all primary schools into Gaelscoileanna is simply not possible over a short time frame. The pool of teachers capable of teaching entirely through Irish is simply too small,

    The best way forward is for new gaelscoileanna to be recognized on the basis of demand for them, In areas where there is enough demand for a gaelscoil to justify setting one up then they should be supported by the state, Demand for gaelscoileanna is well ahead of supply and there is no sign of this demand slacking, Should this policy be adopted I think that the Gaelscoil movement would grow steadily. Following on from this, the parents of children from Primary level can then go on to set up secondary level schools.


    As far as the rest of the education system is concerned, I think that the teaching of Irish needs to be throughly reformed, The system in place now is clearly failing to teach people Irish.

    Personally I think the priority of the Education system with regards to Irish should be to teach people how to speak Irish, In my opinion the Curriculum is simply not capable of doing this and needs to be reformed, Far too much emphasis is placed on rote learning poetry and stories, most students do not have a conversation in Irish till their oral examination, A ridiculous situation. Students spend most of their time reading through Stories and learning how to answer questions on comprehensions.

    In my opinion, the best way forward is In primary level to focus more on spoken Irish, and for a second subject(PE or art etc) to be thought through Irish so that Irish is the vehicle of learning. The standard of Irish among Primary school teachers needs to be addressed, Personally I thing CnaG's proposal that students training to be primary school teachers spend the Equivalent of One year learning through Immersion in Irish is the most practical solution to this because while The Standard Of Irish will be improved
    It would not come at the cost of other subjects as they could still be learned in this time but through Irish instead of English.

    In Second level I think that Irish should be split into Two Subjects, A Conversation based subject that focuses mainly on spoken Irish that would be compulsory to LC, And a literature subject,focused on Poetry, Essays and Reading Comprehension that would be optional.



    I dont have a problem with deirdremf's proposal that the gaelscoil movement could support the creation of new gaelscoils from within its self, The need for which has been shown by the situation in Rath Tó, though I am unsure as to how this could be organised.


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    #50
    An gal gréine
    Registered Users Posts: 941 ✭✭✭An gal gréine


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Turning all primary schools into Gaelscoileanna is simply not possible over a short time frame. The pool of teachers capable of teaching entirely through Irish is simply too small,

    The best way forward is for new gaelscoileanna to be recognized on the basis of demand for them, In areas where there is enough demand for a gaelscoil to justify setting one up then they should be supported by the state, Demand for gaelscoileanna is well ahead of supply and there is no sign of this demand slacking, Should this policy be adopted I think that the Gaelscoil movement would grow steadily. Following on from this, the parents of children from Primary level can then go on to set up secondary level schools.


    As far as the rest of the education system is concerned, I think that the teaching of Irish needs to be throughly reformed, The system in place now is clearly failing to teach people Irish.

    Personally I think the priority of the Education system with regards to Irish should be to teach people how to speak Irish, In my opinion the Curriculum is simply not capable of doing this and needs to be reformed, Far too much emphasis is placed on rote learning poetry and stories, most students do not have a conversation in Irish till their oral examination, A ridiculous situation. Students spend most of their time reading through Stories and learning how to answer questions on comprehensions.

    In my opinion, the best way forward is In primary level to focus more on spoken Irish, and for a second subject(PE or art etc) to be thought through Irish so that Irish is the vehicle of learning. The standard of Irish among Primary school teachers needs to be addressed, Personally I thing CnaG's proposal that students training to be primary school teachers spend the Equivalent of One year learning through Immersion in Irish is the most practical solution to this because while The Standard Of Irish will be improved
    It would not come at the cost of other subjects as they could still be learned in this time but through Irish instead of English.

    In Second level I think that Irish should be split into Two Subjects, A Conversation based subject that focuses mainly on spoken Irish that would be compulsory to LC, And a literature subject,focused on Poetry, Essays and Reading Comprehension that would be optional.



    I dont have a problem with deirdremf's proposal that the gaelscoil movement could support the creation of new gaelscoils from within its self, The need for which has been shown by the situation in Rath Tó, though I am unsure as to how this could be organised.

    + 1


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    #51
    dambarude
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 2,501 Mod ✭✭✭✭dambarude


    deise go deo wrote: »
    In my opinion, the best way forward is In primary level to focus more on spoken Irish, and for a second subject(PE or art etc) to be thought through Irish so that Irish is the vehicle of learning.
    Must agree with this. PE can be taught very easily through Irish, as can Music and Art. The focus of An Curaclam Gaeilge in the primary school is already meant to be on spoken Irish. As far as I can see in my (fairly limited at this stage) experience in primary schools, this is not always the case in the classroom. A lot of time is spent on reading comprehensions and writing. These contribute to language competence, but are not as important as actually using the spoken language.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    Personally I thing CnaG's proposal that students training to be primary school teachers spend the Equivalent of One year learning through Immersion in Irish is the most practical solution to this because while The Standard Of Irish will be improved
    It would not come at the cost of other subjects as they could still be learned in this time but through Irish instead of English..
    There are obstacles to this happening. Unfortunately many lecturers in the colleges of education wouldn't have the language abilities themselves to deliver third level content through the medium of Irish (in Mary I at least, and I'm sure others are similar). I've posted here about other issues relating to teaching practice inspection and the teaching of Irish in particular.

    The impact that learning through a second language would have on unrelated subject areas could be significant. It could be argued that for a student teacher, as a student, that their potential to do well in their degree overall shouldn't be overly influenced by their ability or lack thereof in one particular subject. That said, at the moment it appears to be much too easy to get through a B.Ed/Postgrad with very poor Irish. In my experience it is anyway.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    In Second level I think that Irish should be split into Two Subjects, A Conversation based subject that focuses mainly on spoken Irish that would be compulsory to LC, And a literature subject,focused on Poetry, Essays and Reading Comprehension that would be optional.
    .
    The most logical option, I don't know why the DES/NCCA aren't running with this.


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    #52
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    For people to learn Irish well don't they have to have an interest in it first? Personally I think one of the barriers to Irish is that it has a terrible image problem and I don't think it's an attractive language to listen to like the Romance languages for example.
    Would a way of making people interested in it be to maybe look into the history of it a bit, how it's linked to other languages etc. Maybe throw in a bit of mythology.


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    #53
    Enkidu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    fontanalis wrote: »
    For people to learn Irish well don't they have to have an interest in it first? Personally I think one of the barriers to Irish is that it has a terrible image problem and I don't think it's an attractive language to listen to like the Romance languages for example.
    Funny enough, I have had colleagues from the US and mainland Europe tell me it is one of the most beautiful languages they have ever heard. A very large part of it, I think, is that we often don't hear native Irish when we are in school. Irish has some soft, beautiful sounds (the slender r for example), that we often miss because we mainly hear learners who never mastered those sounds.
    fontanalis wrote: »
    Would a way of making people interested in it be to maybe look into the history of it a bit, how it's linked to other languages etc. Maybe throw in a bit of mythology.
    I think this would be a good thing to put into the course. Reading Celtic myths from the Iron Age in a Celtic language would be much cooler than reading about some unfortunate old woman from a rainy island. In short, everything you mentioned is stuff I would have loved when I was in school.


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    #54
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Enkidu wrote: »
    Funny enough, I have had colleagues from the US and mainland Europe tell me it is one of the most beautiful languages they have ever heard. A very large part of it, I think, is that we often don't hear native Irish when we are in school. Irish has some soft, beautiful sounds (the slender r for example), that we often miss because we mainly hear learners who never mastered those sounds.


    I think this would be a good thing to put into the course. Reading Celtic myths from the Iron Age in a Celtic language would be much cooler than reading about some unfortunate old woman from a rainy island. In short, everything you mentioned is stuff I would have loved when I was in school.

    Well things like place names and persons names can sound very nice; sometimes when you hear people having conversations it can come across as very harsh and gutteral.


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    #55
    Cha82
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭Cha82


    I totally agree with what most posters have already said regarding the capabilities of some teachers at primary level.

    A few years ago, as part of my BA degree I had to attend a 3 week Gaeltacht course. There was a number of students there doing the Post-grad in Primary Teaching and their standard of Irish overall was absolutely shocking. Many had no concept at all of even the most basic grammar.

    Im not trying to teacher bash or anything, I actually have great respect for the profession, but in all fairness, these students should not be teaching the fundamentals of a language to children when they clearly don't understand it themselves.


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    #56
    Enkidu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Well things like place names and persons names can sound very nice; sometimes when you hear people having conversations it can come across as very harsh and gutteral.
    Sorry, I didn't explain myself very well. We played a drinking game where nobody could speak English, so they heard quite a bit of it. Plus one colleague has family from Ireland. It actually has less guttural sounds than French for instance, it has only two true guttural consonants.

    Take this video of Ulster Irish, I think it's neither a smooth or guttural language, but somewhere in the middle like English.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD-_l5p3MzI


    Although there is no right or wrong on this, if you think it sounds unpleasant that's perfectly valid.

    For an example of a good learner, Kayla Reid at 4:21, she's from America, very nice natural accent.


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    #57
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Enkidu wrote: »
    Sorry, I didn't explain myself very well. We played a drinking game where nobody could speak English, so they heard quite a bit of it. Plus one colleague has family from Ireland. It actually has less guttural sounds than French for instance, it has only two true guttural consonants.

    Take this video of Ulster Irish, I think it's neither a smooth or guttural language, but somewhere in the middle like English.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD-_l5p3MzI
    Although there is no right or wrong on this, if you think it sounds unpleasant that's perfectly valid.

    For an example of a good learner, Kayla Reid at 4:21, she's from America, very nice natural accent.

    Really, I would consider French an attractive language. Well one mans poetry is another mans pornography!


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    #58
    Enkidu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Well one mans poetry is another mans pornography!
    Very true!:)


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    #59
    Krusader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Really, I would consider French an attractive language. Well one mans poetry is another mans pornography!

    Don't understand the appeal of French myself, Gaelic is nicer and I like the sounds of Italian aswell


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    #60
    Canis_Lupus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 73 ✭✭Canis_Lupus


    There is a good letter in todays Times regarding the new government strategy. The writer makes some good points that cause me to lose faith in the 20 year strategy as it stands.

    "A chara, – Cuirim fáilte roimh stráitéis an rialtais i dtaca leis an Ghaeilge. I welcome the Government’s strategy for the Irish language (Home News, December 22nd). I have two main problems with it.

    First, the period is too short. If, as a nation we want to promote the Irish language so that many more people speak it every day, we need to plan for 100 years, not 20. In order for a language to gain strength, it takes generations. Twenty years does not cover even one generation.
    Second, in order for a language to make headway, strong policies are required. The English, when conquering Ireland, used strong policies to ensure the English language was used at the expense of the Irish language. This strategy does not have enough strong policies that will influence Ireland for centuries.

    I became fluent in Irish by attending an Irish-medium primary school. Unfortunately most students in English-medium primary schools do not become fluent in Irish. A strong successful policy would legislate that all primary schools teach through the medium of Irish. It would be an enormous change for Ireland and its education system, but it would succeed in producing fluent Irish speakers.

    Any private company that requires a government licence to operate (such as mobile telephone operators, broadcasting stations, transport companies) should have to fulfil a language requirement. Commercial radio stations should be required to broadcast 50 per cent of their prime-time output in Irish. Mobile telephone companies should offer all their services in Irish. In this way, Irish speakers such as myself would get the chance to use Irish every day. Currently we don’t, even though these companies are well aware that there are hundreds of thousands of people who can speak Irish.

    If a government is not prepared to make tough decisions to implement strong policies, perhaps we should ask ourselves who we are as a nation. Would the rest of the world care if we completely lost our language? Probably not. Would they have more respect and admiration for us if we made a strenuous effort to speak Irish once again? Absolutely! Would tourists enjoy visiting Ireland more if they saw a unique and different culture in Ireland unavailable anywhere else in the world? Definitely.

    – Is mise,

    SEANÁN Ó COISTÍN, Port Gleoráin, Cill Choca, Co Chill Dara."


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    #61
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    I read that, but it's unworkable. There simply isn't enough qualified teachers to transform all primary schools into gaelscoileanna. I think we need to increase the amount of gaelscoileanna to meet the large demand for them. Almost all gaelscoileanna I know of have lists that are backlogged 4 or 5 years before kids can attend them. Let's first try to meet this demand.


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