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Irish language - Revamp in Education.

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Dose anyone think the 20 year plan is realistic?

    It aims to increase the number of Irish speakers from 83,000 now to 250,000 in 20 years time.

    That works out at about 5.7% increase per year, or an average increase of 8500 per year, Starting at a 4700 increase in the first year and finishing at a 13500 increase in the last year.

    I cant see where this number of fluent Irish speakers is supposed to come from.

    I think an Increase of just 2% per year would be a more realistic target. That would mean an Increase of 2300 per year on average over 20 years, starting at an increase of 1700 and finishing at an increase of 2600.
    This is an increase that I feel can be achieved and would result in there being 130,000 Irish speakers at the end of the 20 years. A Positive step forward.
    I think this can be achieved because there are currently (Roughly) 1350* students leaving second level Gaelscoileanna per year (Outside the Gaelthacht) and demand for Gaelscoill places is still well ahead of supply.


    *There were 8158 students in Second Level Education in Gaelscoils in the year 09-10. Naisc Devide by 6 gives 1360.(The number going to 6th year will be slightly smaller than the average because some will drop out after JC, But not all schools will have 6 years so that would roughly balance it out.)
    The Figure 1350 is just Second Level and dose not take into account the number of students who went to a Primary level Gaelscoil but dident go onto a second level Gaelscoil.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Just a side issue. Is there a danger that any of the dialects may suffer from the langauge being more standardised?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Just a side issue. Is there a danger that any of the dialects may suffer from the langauge being more standardised?


    Standardisation is a contentious issue for some people, Some Ulster Speakers feel they got a raw deal in it,(Its supposed to be an amalgam of all three Dialects) but Overall I dont think so, There is a standard form of English that is used In formal Ocasations and by Governments, That dosent stop there being Dialects of English. The Same is true of French and other languages. So Overall I dont Think Standardisation its self will negativly impact the Dialects.
    What could is the Decline of the Gaelthachts where those dialects are mainly spoken.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Standardisation is a contentious issue for some people, Some Ulster Speakers feel they got a raw deal in it,(Its supposed to be an amalgam of all three Dialects) but Overall I dont think so, There is a standard form of English that is used In formal Ocasations and by Governments, That dosent stop there being Dialects of English. The Same is true of French and other languages. So Overall I dont Think Standardisation its self will negativly impact the Dialects.
    What could is the Decline of the Gaelthachts where those dialects are mainly spoken.


    I suppose it's a trade off really; if you want to make inroads at a national level you would have to have some kind of standardisation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    fontanalis wrote: »
    I suppose it's a trade off really; if you want to make inroads at a national level you would have to have some kind of standardisation.

    True, but i feel they should have made one dialect the standard, instead of a mishmash of them, Conamara seems to be the middle ground of the 3 dialects and nowadays the more prestigious, should have picked it as the standard


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    True, but i feel they should have made one dialect the standard, instead of a mishmash of them, Conamara seems to be the middle ground of the 3 dialects and nowadays the more prestigious, should have picked it as the standard

    But picking one out of three could start all sorts of arguements.
    Is it true that Ulster Irish is as close to Scots Gaelic as it is to the other two dialects?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Is it true that Ulster Irish is as close to Scots Gaelic as it is to the other two dialects?

    No that is not true. Of all the dialects, Scottish Gaelic is closest to Ulster Irish - But Ulster Irish is not closer to Scottish Gaelic than it is Munster/Conamara Irish.

    Scottish Gaelic is an entirely different language, that has matured on it's own for centuries into it's own unique language.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Thanks, I think it was an irish speaker form Dublin who told me that as he considered Ulster irish very different.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    fontanalis wrote: »
    But picking one out of three could start all sorts of arguements.
    Is it true that Ulster Irish is as close to Scots Gaelic as it is to the other two dialects?

    Yeah it's true that it could lead to argyments but schools in a gaeltacht should learn through their own dialect in anyways

    In some ways it is and others it isn't, there are similarities between munster irish and scots gaelic also
    They say that Ulster Irish is closer to the Gaelic of the Isle of Islay than the Gaelic of the Hebridies.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Thanks, I think it was an irish speaker form Dublin who told me that as he considered Ulster irish very different.
    They can be a bit different at times. For instance consider these two sentences:

    Ulster: Bhí mé i ndiadh an seomra a glanadh.
    Munster: Bhí an seomra glanta agam.
    English: I had cleaned the room.

    Ulster: Abrann siad go bhfuil tú sásta.
    Munster: Deir siad go bhfuileas tú sásta.
    English: They say you are content.

    Although I find most differences are in simple sentences or common words, for complex sentences the language is very similar across all dialects.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    Good site on Cork-Irish with recordings
    http://www.corkirish.com/wordpress/verb-conjugation/taim


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,554 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    I teach in a Gaelscoil, we have 470 children and places are much in demand. While many parents have chosen the school for the love of An Ghaeilge, many more choose our school because it's a "good school."The school works, because parents have chosen it, for whatever reason.

    It would be lovely to think that all primary children would learn through immersion in a Gaelscoil, but without parental support and by removing the element of choice, it would not work.

    My mother went to school in the 1930s in a rural area of Waterford and they did many subjects through Irish.Nearly a century later ,why can't we do the dame thing?? I agree with the idea of doing subjects that most pupils enjoy like PE and Art and know that it would make for a more positive feeling towards our language.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    I teach in a Gaelscoil, we have 470 children and places are much in demand. While many parents have chosen the school for the love of An Ghaeilge, many more choose our school because it's a "good school."The school works, because parents have chosen it, for whatever reason.
    How good is the children's command of Irish after passing through the school, if you don't mind me asking?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Enkidu wrote: »
    They can be a bit different at times. For instance consider these two sentences:

    Ulster: Bhí mé i ndiadh an seomra a glanadh.
    Munster: Bhí an seomra glanta agam.
    English: I had cleaned the room.

    Ulster: Abrann siad go bhfuil tú sásta.
    Munster: Deir siad go bhfuileas tú sásta.
    English: They say you are content.

    Although I find most differences are in simple sentences or common words, for complex sentences the language is very similar across all dialects.

    You pick up most of the common word differences after a few days.

    Also in munster - I often use tar éis in the same context as i ndiadh is used. "I'm after cleaning the room". Infact, that's often seen in Hiberno-English. "Táim tar éis blah a dhéanamh.."


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 189 ✭✭LaBaguette


    As a foreigner learning Irish, I really think that a strong support for either a standard or one of the three dialects is necessary. I've started learning Irish from a Connemara guy, and although we were made aware of dialectal differences, my (feeble) Irish is still clearly that of Connemara, even after another year spent learning from a Clare guy, and regular contacts with Ulster Irish.

    Long story short, now I'm slightly confused when I start a conversation with someone with a different accent than the one I'm used to, and especially when they're from Dún na nGall. And the grammar differences can sometimes add to the trouble of learning the language, with its already complex syntax.

    As for how the language sounds, to me it greatly depends on the speaker : most people I heard make it sound like a weird mix or Arabic (guttural sounds and massive use of bh/mh) and Japanese (strange associations of vowels and -h sounds), but some people make it sound smooth and soft. And I have a special fondness for Donegal girls when they speak Irish, no clue why :p


    Anyway, very interesting post - in fact I'll be writing a thesis on some of the stuff you mentioned.

    To end with something at least vaguely interesting, what do you think of Finland ? They had a relatively similar situation : distinctive culture colonized by the big neighbour (Norway in this case), said neighbour went to great lenghts to impose its language over Finnish. (And it case you're wondering, Norwegian and Finnish have almost nothing in common, much like English and Irish). Finland got independance pretty much at the same time as Ireland. They manage to impose Finnish in their schools, and now everybody speaks Finnish.

    Even though I still don't know much about the situation, I think on the long run it (=making Irish the language of education) is the best way to put Irish first, if that's the goal.
    However, from what I've heard and read, I think a good first step would be to completely revamp the way it's taught. Heck, if I had to read Cervantes in my Spanish class, I would have killed myself, and surely would not remember a word of Spanish.
    In fact, I just don't get why it's taught that way, because I assume that Spanish, German or whatever other language is not, right ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 149 ✭✭Redbhoy


    LaBaguette wrote: »
    Finland got independance pretty much at the same time as Ireland. They manage to impose Finnish in their schools, and now everybody speaks Finnish.

    Interesting points there Labaguette although we never really got rid of the English when we achieved Independence and a large portion of our ruling classes probably still yearn to live under the Union Jack.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    could we please get some decent resources into schools to teach Irish???
    how much money is wasted on reports and other crap when what is really needed is resources on the ground to help teachers and connect with the children.


    Decent books! with multimedia aspects to them
    Decent modern songs 'as Gaeilge'
    Video clips
    Interactive games for the IWB
    walk through 3-D town with everything labelled 'as Gaeilge'
    travelling puppet shows 'as gaeilge'

    there really is so much that could be supplied for FREE to schools over the internet. and kids and parents could download them at home and improve their Irish???
    It makes sense to me, but does anyone else care??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    nice_guy80 wrote: »


    Decent books! with multimedia aspects to them
    Decent modern songs 'as Gaeilge'
    Video clips
    Interactive games for the IWB
    walk through 3-D town with everything labelled 'as Gaeilge'
    travelling puppet shows 'as gaeilge'

    there really is so much that could be supplied for FREE to schools over the internet. and kids and parents could download them at home and improve their Irish???
    It makes sense to me, but does anyone else care??


    There are modern songs as Gaeilge.

    Here are a few, Type 'Ceol 10' into google and you will find them. They are on youtube too.

    As for the rest, there are interactive stuff available, I was in a Primary school last week and it was being used.
    The school need IT whiteboards to use that kind of stuff though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    There are modern songs as Gaeilge.

    Here are a few, Type 'Ceol 10' into google and you will find them. They are on youtube too.

    As for the rest, there are interactive stuff available, I was in a Primary school last week and it was being used.
    The school need IT whiteboards to use that kind of stuff though.

    schools have to pay for those.

    my point is the state should be spending money on resources for Irish teaching and promotion.

    most schools now have interactive boards.
    songs need to be relevant to the subject areas in Irish.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    schools have to pay for those.

    my point is the state should be spending money on resources for Irish teaching and promotion.

    most schools now have interactive boards.
    songs need to be relevant to the subject areas in Irish.

    Not the time to be asking for airgead!

    Arguably a lot of interactive stuff exists, and merely needs to be translated to Irish. It could be a very good project for a group of enthusiasts and teachers etc to work on stuff that would be used in the classroom.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    Cliste wrote: »
    Not the time to be asking for airgead!

    Arguably a lot of interactive stuff exists, and merely needs to be translated to Irish. It could be a very good project for a group of enthusiasts and teachers etc to work on stuff that would be used in the classroom.

    it will cost sweet feck all

    just divert money in some of the Irish promotion bodies and direct it to private companies to produce these resources for schools, parents etc

    then provide them online for free for everyone

    it would be a much better value for money than throwing money at silly language promotion strategies


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    it will cost sweet feck all

    just divert money in some of the Irish promotion bodies and direct it to private companies to produce these resources for schools, parents etc

    then provide them online for free for everyone

    it would be a much better value for money than throwing money at silly language promotion strategies

    Hmmm, Nílim cinnte chun an fhírinne a rá. Throwing money at something doesn't always make it better.

    I think it's time for the Irish community to look inwards, make use of the facilities that we have available to ourselves right now. Windows and Linux are available in Irish, install these. Hop onto Vicipéid for an article, or Nósmag for something a bit more youthful!
    Tg4 for videos, the likes of the Ceol cd's for music.

    Use Irish and you will learn it. Thats what is needed. Not more teaching materials.

    Tá neart 'stuff' le fáil anois san teanga - caithfimid na áiseanna atá le fáil a úsáid. Ceapaim go bhfuil an iomarca brú curtha ar daltaí anois - an iomarca bata agus easpa spreag agus moladh. Cad a deirtear "Is féidir asal...."


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