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Is Irish actually spoken in the Gealtachts?

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    #242
    Cathaoirleach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 701 ✭✭✭Cathaoirleach


    conor.hogan.2 wrote: »
    Languages grow, people brushing it off as "béarlachas" is stupid.

    I have no problem with English loanwords used in Irish.

    Béarlachas to me is people speaking Irish without putting any effort into pronouncing words correctly.

    The most basic thing one should know when speaking Irish is that CH is not pronounced K, yet many non-natives either don't seem to know this or simply aren't willing to make that guttural CH sound.

    Example: "a carr" and "a charr" - these sounds are important in order for the listener to understand who's car they are talking about.

    To me, one of the most beautiful things about Irish is the way that words morph into different sounds depending on the words before them. This concept seems to be completely absent with Béarlachas speakers and I think that is a great loss to the richness of the language.

    Living in Spain, I strive to speak Spanish as closely as I can to the natives as I enjoy and understand the language more that way, but there are English speakers here that speak Spanish in a strong anglophone accent, which to my ears is difficult to listen to. I feel the exact same about Béarlachas.


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    #243
    Cathaoirleach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 701 ✭✭✭Cathaoirleach


    conor.hogan.2 wrote:
    that's not Béarlachas, that's just wrong.

    Righteo, man, righteo. Thank you for the engaging discussion.

    edit: conor.hogan.2 has since deleted the comment before mine.


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    #244
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Cathaoirleach wrote: »
    ...
    Béarlachas to me is people speaking Irish without putting any effort into pronouncing words correctly.

    The most basic thing one should know when speaking Irish is that CH is not pronounced K, yet many non-natives either don't seem to know this or simply aren't willing to make that guttural CH sound....

    It's not necessarily a lack of effort.

    It can be a lack of capacity. There are two ways in which that can arise: first, an anglophone might not be able to distinguish differences between sounds in Irish and sounds in English (that's particularly true with vowel sounds); secondly, the production of some sounds in Irish might be difficult for them and their tongues fall over them (e.g. chuaigh mé involves elision of both c and g - and then on top of that they might be confused by differences in dialect).

    Further, very many people who learn Irish as a second language are not properly instructed or rehearsed in some aspects of pronunciation, notably the differences between broad and slender consonants, and that certain digraphs are subject to the same regime.

    I agree that it is unfortunate, but I think we should recognise the difficulties that many people have in learning Irish, and have some sympathy if their standard is less than perfect.


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    #245
    Gaeilge72
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭Gaeilge72


    I agree a degree of sympathy is needed when it comes to learners. And of course there are those who simply don't hear the difference in pronunciation.

    I was teaching a friend a couple of days ago and we were going over the broad and slender consonants. It was my first time teaching her and she simply couldn't hear the difference. Eventually she did get it but I imagine there are some who simply don't have a great ear for it. I have taught many others and for some it can take quite a while. Language acquisition, of course, comes a lot more naturally the younger we are and some do struggle with sounds that are 'unnatural' to them.

    One of my friends speaks about six languages ranging in ability from very reasonable to very fluent. Her most fluent are French and Arabic, which she speaks daily. But she speaks them still with her strong Cork accent. I'm not sure why she doesn't try to get the 'blas', but it's quite funny and strange to hear her speak the languages so fluently and have a love of languages and yet still retain her strong accent.

    Personally, with any language learning I have always made an attempt to be as 'natural' sounding as I can.


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    #246
    deirdremf
    Registered Users Posts: 1,880 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    conor.hogan.2 wrote: »
    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=car

    Old does not mean oldest.
    I'm not sure what the point is here.
    Welsh, Irish and Breton all have the word "carr".
    It's a word they have in common. Very likely it has been in the languages for ever - particularly if your link means anything.


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    #247
    deirdremf
    Registered Users Posts: 1,880 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Gaeilge72 wrote: »
    Personally, with any language learning I have always made an attempt to be as 'natural' sounding as I can.
    So are you telling us that native speakers don't know you're a foreigner?


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    #248
    pog it
    Registered Users Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭pog it


    Gaeilge72 wrote: »
    Are you seriously basing the state of the Irish language and it's dialects on the weather presenters?

    You may want to re-read my post. That isn't the point I made. Someone else - Deirdre- who posted after you, told you what point I made, so if you misunderstood or took your own interpretation out of it, it's your problem.

    I was talking solely about the Munster dialect, and was asking questions about it, i.e Questions, as a result of hearing a very poor speaker in a position on TG4 that has always only ever been done by good native speakers before. Something has to be going wrong somewhere when this new presenter has slipped through the loop. I don't mind who presents Poptv, etc. but anchor jobs like weather, continuity announcements, etc. should be carried out by quality speakers. Thankfully there is still Sinéad Ní Loideáin, Cormac Ó Loideáin, Síle Ní Bhraonáin, and the other great speakers also working in that particular area of TG4. Nar laga Dia iad.

    Anyway, this particular presenter looks like they are staying around. They were doing the announcements about new programmes coming up at the weekend, even that 30 second voiceover bit is too much of them to listen to. I now have to turn off the tv when they come on the weather too. Really putting me off TG4 now.


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    #249
    Gaeilge72
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭Gaeilge72


    pog it wrote: »
    You may want to re-read my post. That isn't the point I made. Someone else - Deirdre- who posted after you, told you what point I made, so if you misunderstood or took your own interpretation out of it, it's your problem.

    I was talking solely about the Munster dialect, and was asking questions about it, i.e Questions, as a result of hearing a very poor speaker in a position on TG4 that has always only ever been done by good native speakers before. Something has to be going wrong somewhere when this new presenter has slipped through the loop. I don't mind who presents Poptv, etc. but anchor jobs like weather, continuity announcements, etc. should be carried out by quality speakers. Thankfully there is still Sinéad Ní Loideáin, Cormac Ó Loideáin, Síle Ní Bhraonáin, and the other great speakers also working in that particular area of TG4. Nar laga Dia iad.

    Anyway, this particular presenter looks like they are staying around. They were doing the announcements about new programmes coming up at the weekend, even that 30 second voiceover bit is too much of them to listen to. I now have to turn off the tv when they come on the weather too. Really putting me off TG4 now.

    I understood the point you were making. You just seem to back it up by comparing and speaking about weather presenters. There are plenty of great Munster Irish speakers, it's just sometimes bad presenters get on television. It's not a language issue. RTÉ has it's fair share of poor speakers. I'm sure this applies to every country / language.


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    #250
    Gaeilge72
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭Gaeilge72


    deirdremf wrote: »
    So are you telling us that native speakers don't know you're a foreigner?

    Clearly not. I am saying that I always make an effort in regards to pronunciation.


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    #251
    pog it
    Registered Users Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭pog it


    Gaeilge72 wrote: »
    sometimes bad presenters get on television. It's not a language issue. RTÉ has it's fair share of poor speakers. I'm sure this applies to every country / language.

    I am not talking about the presenting skills, or good presenters or bad presenters. I'm talking about their standard of Irish.

    RTE is a joke and I couldn't care less who's presenting on it. TG4 is a different story. We are discussing TG4 here and comparing with RTE1 or looking at what they're doing is a waste of time.

    Who on TG4 has had an anchor position on the station such as weather and has poor quality Irish? I can't think of anybody up until this. Again, I don't mind what standard of Irish presenters of PopTv, etc. have. I'm talking about the full-time staff that are on weather, news, etc.


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    #252
    An gal gréine
    Registered Users Posts: 941 ✭✭✭An gal gréine


    conor.hogan.2 wrote: »
    If it dies, or decreases significantly we will be left in a very weak state as Connemara is not that big or strong and Donnegal is dwindling.

    Dont underestimate Donegal as it has been bi-lingual far longer than the other regions with the constant traffic to and from Scotland and yet was'nt seriously diluted (or wiped out, amazingly).


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    #253
    Enkidu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    Gaeilge72 wrote: »
    Clearly not. I am saying that I always make an effort in regards to pronunciation.
    If you're very good, it is possible to reach this level (sounding native), I'm always shocked and impressed by people who can achieve this. Although it's easier in some languages than others.


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    #254
    Gaeilge72
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭Gaeilge72


    Enkidu wrote: »
    If you're very good, it is possible to reach this level (sounding native), I'm always shocked and impressed by people who can achieve this. Although it's easier in some languages than others.

    I agree, you can. I've heard a few people achieve this quite well.
    I've let a couple of the languages I had quite well slip by the wayside the last few years and I'm trying to get them going again. I'm not sure how I'll compare to native speakers but I'd like to get them to at least a near-fluent level again! I haven't had much time for them and certainly had none for travelling! I'll see how I get on - something to do on a day off anyway! :D


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    #255
    Gaeilge72
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭Gaeilge72


    pog it wrote: »
    I am not talking about the presenting skills, or good presenters or bad presenters. I'm talking about their standard of Irish.

    RTE is a joke and I couldn't care less who's presenting on it. TG4 is a different story. We are discussing TG4 here and comparing with RTE1 or looking at what they're doing is a waste of time.

    Who on TG4 has had an anchor position on the station such as weather and has poor quality Irish? I can't think of anybody up until this. Again, I don't mind what standard of Irish presenters of PopTv, etc. have. I'm talking about the full-time staff that are on weather, news, etc.

    I understand you are only speaking about their standard of Irish. And I agree with you on RTÉ. ;) I don't much care for them myself. I was just making the comparison, saying generally this happens on all news weather channels in various countries and languages.
    Of course, you were judging TG4 by their own standards - which as you have pointed out, have until now been of a generally high standard. I don't think this one exception is because a lack of speakers of the dialect though. I just think sometimes you can get a bad news / weather person. :(


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    #256
    Gaeilge72
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21 ✭Gaeilge72


    An gal gréine wrote: »
    Dont underestimate Donegal as it has been bi-lingual far longer than the other regions with the constant traffic to and from Scotland and yet was'nt seriously diluted (or wiped out, amazingly).

    From what I have seen I'd definitely agree with this. I go up to Gaoth Dobhair, usually at least once a month for a few days and it is extremely rare that I speak a word of English there. When I do, it is usually to people who are not from there. Plenty of Irish there yet (at least in Gaoth Dobhair anyway)! :)


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    #257
    pog it
    Registered Users Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭pog it


    Just want to update on this and say that I was wrong when it came to the new presenter having quite poor Irish. I was watching a lot of TG4 at the weekend and she was doing all the continuity, weather, etc. and I have to say that her Irish was really good and she does sound like a native speaker.. perhaps she was more restrained with it before because she had just started with the station. Best of luck to her anyway, I should have known TG4 wouldn't get it so wrong!


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    #258
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    pog it wrote: »
    Just want to update on this and say that I was wrong when it came to the new presenter having quite poor Irish. I was watching a lot of TG4 at the weekend and she was doing all the continuity, weather, etc. and I have to say that her Irish was really good and she does sound like a native speaker.. perhaps she was more restrained with it before because she had just started with the station. Best of luck to her anyway, I should have known TG4 wouldn't get it so wrong!

    Stagefright / Nerves? After all it's probably her first time on a camera. I could imagine that after the first day or two ye just relax into it. I think I saw the particular presenter do the weather. I would say she has considerably milder blas then some, plus she wouldn't be as fast.

    No doubt the malcontent from Waterford who wrote the letter complaining about Connemara/Donegal speakers reading the Nuacht/Weather (Sunday Indo) would be a fan.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/tg4-irish-hard-to-understand-2996285.html
    TG4 Irish hard to understand
    Sir -- In your edition (Sunday Independent, January 8, 2012), Concubhar O Liathain lauded the work being done by TG4 and inter alia said it had "recast the Irish language as an integral part of Irish culture that is attractive and useful".

    Personally, I would take issue with him on this point.

    Many years ago in my Leaving Certificate I got what would now be described as an A plus in Irish.

    I spent two full summers in Gaeltachts, firstly in Colaiste na Rinne and later in Ballingeary, West Cork.

    I have frequently holidayed in Dingle for 15 years, I have had a lot of contact with native Irish speakers in this area and find that I have been able to hold my own in conversations in Irish with them.

    Why is it then, that when I turn on TG4 for the news, weather or any other item, I find the presenters speaking in a western or north-western dialect which is incomprehensible to me except for an odd word here and there. They also speak at a rate of knots which adds to the difficulty. I wonder how many other people, especially in Munster, have the same experience as me. I raised the matter with a friend of mine who is a native Irish speaker from the north-east and his answer was that he fully understood the problems which Munster residents have in this regard. Surely part of the mission of the station is to promote the use of the Irish language.

    I would have thought that an essential element of any plan to promote the language to make it "attractive and useful" would be to present it in a way that would be understandable to its audience.

    Dick Brennan,

    Tramore, Co Waterford


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    #259
    Fuinseog
    Registered Users Posts: 5,371 ✭✭✭Fuinseog


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Stagefright / Nerves? After all it's probably her first time on a camera. I could imagine that after the first day or two ye just relax into it. I think I saw the particular presenter do the weather. I would say she has considerably milder blas then some, plus she wouldn't be as fast.

    No doubt the malcontent from Waterford who wrote the letter complaining about Connemara/Donegal speakers reading the Nuacht/Weather (Sunday Indo) would be a fan.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/tg4-irish-hard-to-understand-2996285.html

    i read that yesterday. he has a gripe that they speak too fast, in other words they speak at a normal pace and not at beginners level standard. maybe Martin king of TV3 speaks too fast for non nationals and should speak in a way that his audience will understand. I guess the weather on tG4 is not for people with a few words. They speak a lot slower doing the weather on RTE Nuacht, but its obvious that they are used to speaking Irish.

    if you speak Irish you more or less understand the different dialects. you just have to tune in a little more. the first year I was in Dublin I could not 100% understand what the folks said, because I had learnt standard English. it was worse up north, but after a while you get used to it. no different with Irish.
    i think the conflict between dialects is a thing of past though I remember in the seventies there was outrage among parents when we got an Irish teacaher who was not from Connacht.


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    #260
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Fuinseog wrote: »
    i read that yesterday. he has a gripe that they speak too fast, in other words they speak at a normal pace and not at beginners level standard. maybe Martin king of TV3 speaks too fast for non nationals and should speak in a way that his audience will understand. I guess the weather on tG4 is not for people with a few words. They speak a lot slower doing the weather on RTE Nuacht, but its obvious that they are used to speaking Irish.

    if you speak Irish you more or less understand the different dialects. you just have to tune in a little more. the first year I was in Dublin I could not 100% understand what the folks said, because I had learnt standard English. it was worse up north, but after a while you get used to it. no different with Irish.
    i think the conflict between dialects is a thing of past though I remember in the seventies there was outrage among parents when we got an Irish teacaher who was not from Connacht.

    I find it funny though that he goes on about been a A+ student in the Leaving. As if the Leaving cert matters with it's emphasis on rote learning and writen exam (especially I can imagine back in the day), I got a C2 in Irish and let I've no problem listening to people from all three dialects. If anything I tend to like listening to Donegal speakers -- something that would put fear into us when it came to tape test in school!


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    #261
    Enkidu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭Enkidu


    dubhthach wrote: »
    I find it funny though that he goes on about been a A+ student in the Leaving. As if the Leaving cert matters with it's emphasis on rote learning and writen exam (especially I can imagine back in the day), I got a C2 in Irish and let I've no problem listening to people from all three dialects. If anything I tend to like listening to Donegal speakers -- something that would put fear into us when it came to tape test in school!
    I couldn't agree with this more. In my experience the difference between Leaving Cert Irish with a A1 honours and ordinary can basically be covered in a few weeks of self study. Since you have to do months of self study to become good, the difference is meaningless.


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    #262
    loldog
    Registered Users Posts: 634 ✭✭✭loldog


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    I am happy to cede to the Gaeltacht community a greater degree of ownership of the language than I have. If they choose carr in preference to gluaisteán...

    Carr is a Gaulish word, it's one of the most widely used Celtic words in all languages. e.g.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Spanish_words_of_Celtic_origin

    I used to think a lot of Irish words were simply loaned from English whereas in fact they entered both Irish and Anglo-Saxon from Latin. For example, máistir comes from the Latin magister... it's more apparent in the old spelling maighistir. :)

    .


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    #263
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Leaving aside loanwords both languages are technically related (though very distantly) as they are both Indo-European. It should be expected that cognates should exist in both.

    Carr isn't a gaulish word. It's a common word between two closely related languages Gaulish and Irish. Obviously in Gaulish it retained the -os which was lost in transition between archaic Irish and old Irish periods.

    What this points to is the word been found in Proto-Celtic which existed at least 3,000 years ago if not longer. Some would say that Gaulish and what became Goidelic spilt around 3k years ago for example.


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    #264
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Another letter in the paper today:
    Sir -- I fully support Dick Brennan's comments about TG4 (Sunday Independent, January 22, 2012).

    RnaG is also hard to understand. I have honours Leaving Certificate and I have attended numerous day and night classes in the Irish language -- but still I find it difficult to understand the news reports of the above stations, TG4 and RnaG, because of the speed of delivery and dialects used.

    I wrote to RnaG expressing my frustrations -- but I did not get a reply.

    I love the Irish language however I feel both broadcasters are letting us down badly in making such inept attempts to communicate with the majority of people.

    Both broadcasters should be using the funding they get from the State to encourage ordinary people to use the Irish language in their everyday lives.

    John Keane (Sean O Cathain),

    Donoughmore,

    Co Cork

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/irish-stations-fail-to-communicate-3003013.html

    Now what I find funny is that if you listen to RnaG news they do have news from Munster in Munster dialect. He appears to be complaining about this as well citing speed.

    I had perhaps originally thought that issue that some commentators had were that they were hearing speakers from Connemara and Donegal. Obviously the "issue" is more to do with native-speakers in general.

    Tbh Honours in the leaving cert doesn't mean Jack. I'm looking forward to a letter complaining bout the speed of French speakers on French Radio/TV from somone who got Honours in French in Leaving.


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