Is Irish actually spoken in the Gealtachts?

deirdremf · 07-01-2012 8:42pm

Fuinseog wrote: »

school Irish is rather quaint and ignore s the fact that many Irish speakers use English terms when speaking.
there is a massive divide between the Irish of urban Gaelscoileanna and the Irish spoken in the Gaeltacht. The former tends to use many makey up words and translates directly from English.
a spoken language is constantly evolving, even in English grammatically flawed phrases such as 'i'm loving it' appear acceptable.

Now that you mention it, school English is rather quaint, too.
Full of makey uppy words, words from French, German, Latin, Greek and whatnot.
Not at all like the real language spoken in the streets.

Curiously enough, all the languages that I know are like that. There is a huge difference between the spoken language and what is taught in school.

I remember a girl on one language course that I attended who complained that what we were learning was not what she was hearing on the street.

Standard languages are, on the one hand, a sort of shorthand for communicating messages, and on the other, a way of sharing experiences that most people don't have. That could be anything from an official report into dementia to a work of literature; none of them are, um, what you will hear in the street, like, ya know.

pog it · 07-01-2012 10:26pm

There's a new weather girl on TG4 and I suspect that she is from the Munster Gaeltacht but her Irish isn't of the same standard and quality (by which I mean blas) as the weather presenters from Conamara (in my opinion), even though they are all in the same age bracket, say early 20s to 30s.

So I'm wondering if it's the case that she is from the Munster Gaeltacht, whether her command of Irish is typical of native speakers coming up now after college, etc.

Is there maybe a higher level of fluency and richer language in the Irish of the younger Conamara speakers as opposed to Munster Gaeltacht speakers?

This is the first time I've considered this and hearing her on TG4 over the Christmas made me think about it.

Maybe I'm totally off with this.

Enkidu · 07-01-2012 11:58pm

pog it wrote: »

So I'm wondering if it's the case that she is from the Munster Gaeltacht, whether her command of Irish is typical of native speakers coming up now after college, etc.

Is there maybe a higher level of fluency and richer language in the Irish of the younger Conamara speakers as opposed to Munster Gaeltacht speakers?

This is the first time I've considered this and hearing her on TG4 over the Christmas made me think about it.

Maybe I'm totally off with this.

I think there are a few issues here. First of all Munster Irish is less "blas"-y by nature, in a sense I'll explain in a minute, than Conamara Irish and it has been ever since the two dialects existed (or at least for two hundred years).

Conamara Irish is highly divergent from the common classical Irish base (Irish of circa 1200) that they both evolved from. In Munster the change is mainly related to a shift in stress, but in Conamara the effects are much more wide spread. Conamara created diphthongs and triphtongs, changed the case system significantly, contracted several word endings, generalised the plural system and vastly increased the difference between the spoken broad/slender distinction. This makes Conamara sound highly distinctive, especially the first and last changes above. This is one of the reasons why Conradh na Gaeilge was attached to Munster Irish early on, it is much easier (or would appear so) for an English speaker to pronounce.

However, secondly, Munster Irish outside of Corca Dhuibhne has had more contact with English and some young native speakers have had their pronunciation altered.

I don't know what's the case with this particular presenter, but have a listen to this native Cork speaker. This is the genuine Cork blas, see what you think:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBAR8HtOKdQ

cmacmurchaidh · 08-01-2012 10:38pm

All languages have to roll with the punches of modern life and all its influences and with Irish being a minority language it probably gets punched that bit more. 'Book' Irish is just a product of modern Ireland and modern Irish. Whatever your personal opinion is of it, it probably has enabled a lot more people to start learning the language, those who go on to become more proficient in the language can then choose a dialect to concentrate on. One side effect of partition in the north is that Irish teachers concentrate on Donegal Irish for the most part and I think that it allows teachers to focus more on one dialect and all that goes with it, whether that's a good thing or a bad thing would make for an interesting debate.

pog it · 09-01-2012 12:42pm

Enkidu wrote: »

I think there are a few issues here. First of all Munster Irish is less "blas"-y by nature, in a sense I'll explain in a minute, than Conamara Irish and it has been ever since the two dialects existed (or at least for two hundred years).

Sorry I think you misunderstood me Enkidul. I'm aware of the differences between the Conamara and Munster dialects generally and I do realise that the Munster dialect is less ornamented, etc. etc.

I was trying to bring up the topic of how the Irish is surviving and what state it is in in the different Gaeltachts. When I said she didn't have the same blas as the Conamara speakers, I wasn't comparing Munster vs. Conamara dialects. I meant her command of Irish was weaker (in terms of richness of language than previous generations of Munster speakers). What I was getting at is that it's evidence to me that the Conamara speakers have retained a richer use of the Irish language from their parents, grandparents, etc. compared with the Munster speakers (I.E if she is a native speaker. Like I said above, it's hard to say whether she is or not. She may have been brought up by non-native speakers, it's hard to say for sure from her language- she sounds borderline true native speaker and one who has learned it themselves). I really don't like listening to her Irish if I'm honest, and I never have that experience with native speakers in general.

Now when you compare the Irish of the Conamara weather presenters- say Cormac Ó Loideáin, Síle Ní Braonáin, etc. to the older speakers from their area, well they seem to be closer to that richness of language.

I suppose what I'm wondering is, is the Irish in Munster in deeper trouble than I thought. I had thought up until now that it was deteriorating at the same pace as other Gaeltachts, but I'm not so sure anymore (again, I'm basing this on limited evidence, and this new weather presenter may not even be a native speaker, i.e brought up by native speakers).

Again, I'm not comparing Munster blas vs. Conamara blas directly. I'm talking about how the blas (relative as it is) is being carried down. And by 'blas' I mean richness of language in general.

Have you heard this new weather presenter? I have to turn off the channel when she comes on as it's just grating to my ears (it's almost your standard learner book Irish).

Enkidu · 09-01-2012 3:43pm

pog it wrote: »

Sorry I think you misunderstood me Enkidul.

Sorry, I see what you mean now.:)

pog it wrote: »

I was trying to bring up the topic of how the Irish is surviving and what state it is in in the different Gaeltachts.

I think Munster Irish, especially outside Corca Dhuibhne is in a much weaker state than Conamara Irish. It has declined numerically much faster than the other dialects, consider that when the state was founded it was the largest dialect, but now it's the smallest. Also the quality of the language, not just the number of speakers. For example Cork Irish has now mixed quite a bit with Standard Irish, if you've read the website "Cork Irish" there's a few posts there mentioning this, a general decay in the traditional grammar among young speakers and a reduction in vocabulary. I'll have to listen to this presenter.

Cathaoirleach · 09-01-2012 4:17pm

What's the presenters name?

pog it · 10-01-2012 12:40pm

I'd rather not say! But if you watch the weather/listen to the continuity broadcasts you should come across this presenter. To be honest though I don't like saying negative things about TG4 as they do an astoundingly good job in general, and I don't want to be rounding on one particular presenter either. But without a doubt it looks like the Irish in Munster is in trouble.

conor.hogan.2 · 10-01-2012 10:53pm

pog it wrote: »

But without a doubt it looks like the Irish in Munster is in trouble.

If it dies, or decreases significantly we will be left in a very weak state as Connemara is not that big or strong and Donnegal is dwindling.

Gaeltacht Irish has a lot of stuff Urban speakers would never say from why-sical to freekáil, sweepáil etc.

Fuinseog · 11-01-2012 9:41am

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

If it dies, or decreases significantly we will be left in a very weak state as Connemara is not that big or strong and Donnegal is dwindling.

Gaeltacht Irish has a lot of stuff Urban speakers would never say from why-sical to freekáil, sweepáil etc.

folks i the Gaeltacht speak like that. its a form of code switching.

for those who think Munster Irish is dying they should watch

An Gaelgeoir Nocht.

conor.hogan.2 · 11-01-2012 5:15pm

I am not complaining about those words just pointing out the gap between gaeltacht irish and "school" irish is widening faster and faster.

When I was in the Gaeltacht last time, the son of the house we were in was speaking to us in English while watching the united game but when we seen him out in Dingle he was hammered and fighting with some lad in Irish.

Gaeilge72 · 13-01-2012 9:51pm

pog it wrote: »

Sorry I think you misunderstood me Enkidul. I'm aware of the differences between the Conamara and Munster dialects generally and I do realise that the Munster dialect is less ornamented, etc. etc.

I was trying to bring up the topic of how the Irish is surviving and what state it is in in the different Gaeltachts. When I said she didn't have the same blas as the Conamara speakers, I wasn't comparing Munster vs. Conamara dialects. I meant her command of Irish was weaker (in terms of richness of language than previous generations of Munster speakers). What I was getting at is that it's evidence to me that the Conamara speakers have retained a richer use of the Irish language from their parents, grandparents, etc. compared with the Munster speakers (I.E if she is a native speaker. Like I said above, it's hard to say whether she is or not. She may have been brought up by non-native speakers, it's hard to say for sure from her language- she sounds borderline true native speaker and one who has learned it themselves). I really don't like listening to her Irish if I'm honest, and I never have that experience with native speakers in general.

Now when you compare the Irish of the Conamara weather presenters- say Cormac Ó Loideáin, Síle Ní Braonáin, etc. to the older speakers from their area, well they seem to be closer to that richness of language.

I suppose what I'm wondering is, is the Irish in Munster in deeper trouble than I thought. I had thought up until now that it was deteriorating at the same pace as other Gaeltachts, but I'm not so sure anymore (again, I'm basing this on limited evidence, and this new weather presenter may not even be a native speaker, i.e brought up by native speakers).

Again, I'm not comparing Munster blas vs. Conamara blas directly. I'm talking about how the blas (relative as it is) is being carried down. And by 'blas' I mean richness of language in general.

Have you heard this new weather presenter? I have to turn off the channel when she comes on as it's just grating to my ears (it's almost your standard learner book Irish).

Are you seriously basing the state of the Irish language and it's dialects on the weather presenters?

deirdremf · 13-01-2012 11:52pm

Gaeilge72 wrote: »

Are you seriously basing the state of the Irish language and it's dialects on the weather presenters?

I think he's trying to say that this particular girl doesn't have a great command of Irish, and that if she is typical of a Munster speaker, Irish is in a poor state in the Munster Gaeltachtaí.

Most people know that already, as the Gaeltachtaí in Munster are very small, and distant from one another. Even the Corca Dhuibhne Gaeltacht is small, and its central focus - Dingle - is mainly English speaking. Moreover, the Irish language is despised and hated by many (not all) Dinglers who would do anything rather than speak it, and use every opportunity to force English on Irish speakers, whether local, or from outside the area.
When I'm in that part of the country, I spend as little money in Dingle as I can, and avoid businesses unless I know I'll get a good service in Irish.

Cathaoirleach · 14-01-2012 1:25am

deirdremf wrote: »

the Irish language is despised and hated by many (not all) Dinglers who would do anything rather than speak it, and use every opportunity to force English on Irish speakers

The same people claimed large government grants during An Tíogar Ceilteach by pretending to be Irish-speaking businesses. Tá sé sin dochreidte ar fad. :rolleyes:

The Irish spoken in Dingle Town, from what I've heard, is very weak. They seemed reluctant and and almost sneered at you for speaking it.

Boot them out of the Gaeltacht and put the money towards the local Gaelscoileanna, i mo thuairim.

P. Breathnach · 14-01-2012 1:31am

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

... The Irish spoken in Dingle Town, from what I've heard, is very weak. They seemed reluctant and and almost sneered at you for speaking it....

The people of Dingle have had that relationship with the Gaeltacht people for more than a century. It was daft to designate Dingle as a Gaeltacht town.

dlofnep · 14-01-2012 1:54am

pog it wrote: »

I suppose what I'm wondering is, is the Irish in Munster in deeper trouble than I thought. I had thought up until now that it was deteriorating at the same pace as other Gaeltachts, but I'm not so sure anymore (again, I'm basing this on limited evidence, and this new weather presenter may not even be a native speaker, i.e brought up by native speakers).

Again, I'm not comparing Munster blas vs. Conamara blas directly. I'm talking about how the blas (relative as it is) is being carried down. And by 'blas' I mean richness of language in general.

Have you heard this new weather presenter? I have to turn off the channel when she comes on as it's just grating to my ears (it's almost your standard learner book Irish).

I've a friend from Cheathrú Rua.. She hs a really beautiful and elegant way about her when speaking Irish, would melt your heart. But she does mix up English words quiet a bit with her Irish. That's just how it's done in Conamara, even with the older folk. She has a friend from Kerry, who she says always corrects her Irish when she mixes it with English.

I would say that Munster Irish deviates less, and tends to use less English. I've yet to hear someone from any Munster Gaeltacht say "Táim alright.." I'm sure it occurs of course, but just less-so than Conamara.

Either way - I love how distinct the gaeltachtaí are from each other. I mean, even between West Waterford and Cork - there are many differences, despite An Rinn only being a few miles from the Cork border. I certainly don't think Munster Irish is in trouble though. many of them are strong purists, and have a very high level.

conor.hogan.2 · 14-01-2012 2:54am

I wish people would cop on, some people here make Pearse look sane in his unrealistic view of Irish and the Gaeltacht.

Irish is Irish, "book"/"school" Irish is as living and "real" as Gaeltacht Irish.

Cathaoirleach · 14-01-2012 6:45am

You can't beat that native lilt from the Gaeltacht though, Conor.

Too much of that Béarlachas would make my ears bleed.

conor.hogan.2 · 14-01-2012 2:32pm

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

You can't beat that native lilt from the Gaeltacht though, Conor.

Too much of that Béarlachas would make my ears bleed.

Preference, but the way the Gaeltachts are going they will not be around forever.

"Béarlachas", is in pretty much every language now.

Can you give some examples?

P. Breathnach · 14-01-2012 3:19pm

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

...
Too much of that Béarlachas would make my ears bleed.

I am happy to cede to the Gaeltacht community a greater degree of ownership of the language than I have. If they choose carr in preference to gluaisteán, and fón rather than guthán, that's okay with me. Yet years ago I heard these words decried as Béarlachas. I don't think they are any more: the words have been assimilated.

The evolution of vocabulary through such borrowings is not a real threat to the language. It is the grammar and syntax that are essential: they embody a way of mediating the world.

conor.hogan.2 · 14-01-2012 3:29pm

That was going to be my point, many words that were shunned as "Béarlachas" are now everyday words and this has been going on for as long as there has been irish or any language.

It grows, it changes.

Rhedyn · 14-01-2012 4:35pm

"Carr" is not Béarlachas. That is the original Irish word. It was borrowed by the Romans for chariot, then borrowed by the French, then to English.

gluaisteán comes from automobile.

conor.hogan.2 · 14-01-2012 4:53pm

It came from a celtic language, I doubt it came from Irish as the Irish did not have many chariots and did not have as much contact with the romans as european or british celts.

An gal gréine · 14-01-2012 5:25pm

In rural Ireland they still say "the ass and carr". It's a very old word as is "ród", meaning road.

conor.hogan.2 · 14-01-2012 5:36pm

An gal gréine wrote: »

In rural Ireland they still say "the ass and carr". It's a very old word as is "ród", meaning road.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=car

Old does not mean oldest.

P. Breathnach · 14-01-2012 5:44pm

Rhedyn wrote: »

"Carr" is not Béarlachas. That is the original Irish word. It was borrowed by the Romans for chariot, then borrowed by the French, then to English.

That's an arguable niggle which has no real bearing on the point I was making.

gluaisteán comes from automobile.

It doesn't, really. It came from the Coiste Téarmaíochta, which has a history of inventing vocabulary which the people of the Gaeltacht declined to adopt. [I'm not suggesting that everything they did was wrong, but they had plenty of misfires.]

An gal gréine · 14-01-2012 5:45pm

I did'nt say it was the oldest but it's not béarlachas and it's far older than gluaisteán.

An gal gréine · 14-01-2012 6:04pm

A lot of anger there! I think you're spoiling for a fight where there is none.

conor.hogan.2 · 14-01-2012 6:08pm

Languages grow, people brushing it off as "béarlachas" is stupid.

Rhedyn · 14-01-2012 6:29pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It doesn't, really. It came from the Coiste Téarmaíochta, which has a history of inventing vocabulary which the people of the Gaeltacht declined to adopt. [I'm not suggesting that everything they did was wrong, but they had plenty of misfires.]

I didn't mean it was it directly evolved naturally from automobile. But the CT coined it from that: - mobile gluaisteacht gluaistáin

Gaeltacht people like to create their own words naturally not foisted upon them by people in Dublin.:cool:

Is Irish actually spoken in the Gealtachts?

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