Fired with no notice

runawaybishop · 20-07-2018 5:28pm

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

How is it though? OP put in hours for free for the betterment of the business. Surely her boss could reciprocate in some make, shape or form and this would be one.

It doesn't have any bearing on whether the dismissal is unfair or not though.

Realistically the op should contact an employment specialist for legal advice, assuming they want to take this further. An informal chat may also be a good course of action.

mrslancaster · 20-07-2018 5:28pm

runawaybishop wrote: »

It is incorrect to state an employee cannot be dismissed on the spot.

For example, earlier someone asked would you have to follow a procedure if you punched your boss in the face and was told yes, this is incorrect. Summary dismissal can be applied.

With regard to the ops situation it would hinge on if they admitted to stealing or not.

Is there an obligation on the employer for proportionality in using summary dismissal?

I could see that being used where it was a large amount - it seems very severe for twenty business cards, ok the OP should have got permission.

OP does your contract have any details of the company disciplinary procedure or general information about dismissal?

runawaybishop · 20-07-2018 5:29pm

mrslancaster wrote: »

Is there an obligation on the employer for proportionality in using summary dismissal?

Absolutely, but it is not clearly defined.

MetzgerMeister · 20-07-2018 5:30pm

runawaybishop wrote: »

It doesn't have any bearing on whether the dismissal is unfair or not though.

Realistically the op should contact an employment specialist for legal advice, assuming they want to take this further. An informal chat may also be a good course of action.

Agreed. Given the fact that there was no procedure followed I would be inclined to think that it was unfair.

scamalert · 20-07-2018 5:35pm

runawaybishop wrote: »

Yes they can, that's what summary dismissal is and the legislation reflects this. Employers can instantly dismiss someone for gross misconduct under certain circumstances, stealing being one.

actually no they cant knowing who constantly has to deal with such situations even if employee is found stealing you cannot let them go on the spot, doesn't matter how much proof there is even if confessed.If employee worked there decent amount of time and is on payroll they cannot be fired on the spot, sad but true, actually in this case OP as mentioned has more grounds to go to whatever branch of government deals with it and easily wipe the floor on how they were treated.Fact that boss didn't follow any outlined procedures opens them to many liabilities if OP were to pursue damages. Since as said know someone who deals with stuff like that often and they have to thread carefully with each single word said, and have someone present at the same time as witness.

runawaybishop · 20-07-2018 5:43pm

scamalert wrote: »

actually no they cant knowing who constantly has to deal with such situations even if employee is found stealing you cannot let them go on the spot, doesn't matter how much proof there is even if confessed.If employee worked there decent amount of time and is on payroll they cannot be fired on the spot, sad but true, actually in this case OP as mentioned has more grounds to go to whatever branch of government deals with it and easily wipe the floor on how they were treated.Fact that boss didn't follow any outlined procedures opens them to many liabilities if OP were to pursue damages. Since as said know someone who deals with stuff like that often and they have to thread carefully with each single word said, and have someone present at the same time as witness.

The bar may be high, but it is simply not correct to state an employee may not be let go on the spot. Theft, assault etc are all grounds for summary dismissal.

The process whereby an employer decides to immediately terminate an employment contract is legally regarded as a summary dismissal. This power may be exercised in circumstances where the contract of employment expressly stipulates or alternatively where the employee is guilty of serious misconduct.

The exact factors which constitute a serious misconduct may be cited in the contract or alternatively where this is not the case, the individual circumstances of the employment may be considered. However, some actions are so nefarious as to be instantly regarded as such including: deliberately destroying the employer’s valuable property, stealing from the employer, and gross insubordination

Pkiernan · 20-07-2018 5:46pm

JayZeus wrote: »

.....
You have no defense and no claim.

This is an absurd and reckless statement.
You don't know what you are talking about.

scamalert · 20-07-2018 6:10pm

runawaybishop wrote: »

The bar may be high, but it is simply not correct to state an employee may not be let go on the spot. Theft, assault etc are all grounds for summary dismissal.

The process whereby an employer decides to immediately terminate an employment contract is legally regarded as a summary dismissal. This power may be exercised in circumstances where the contract of employment expressly stipulates or alternatively where the employee is guilty of serious misconduct.

The exact factors which constitute a serious misconduct may be cited in the contract or alternatively where this is not the case, the individual circumstances of the employment may be considered. However, some actions are so nefarious as to be instantly regarded as such including: deliberately destroying the employer’s valuable property, stealing from the employer, and gross insubordination

Im with you on that but if it was so easy believe me there would be hundreds people gone each day, current legislations and Acts work both ways and protect misconduct as this would be seen as serious allegation for small damage that person committed, and no proper guidelines where followed going by the story. Unless it was reported minute it was found to gardai, and employer discussed how to approach situation in advance with a lawyer and got green light, which i doubt, seems OP boss got lost in rage and just told it how they seen it, throwing away any legal requirements to follow.

Im not soft on those that deserve boot,in many cases it should be instant but law works in such a way that usually right people end up messing up badly and compensations run high for such mistakes, be it right or wrong.

Diceicle · 20-07-2018 6:13pm

WillyWonkaBar wrote: »

To me, it sounds like a situation that will be best resolved once the dust settles a little bit. Hopefully, once your boss has had time to calm down a little bit you can present your case and see if she can see it from your point of view.

Obviously your boss may still be in a raging fit, in which case be prepared to get your stuff and leave!

Would disagree with this. Even if boss has the sense not to fire on fairly frivolous grounds - there would be a target on OPs back.
OPs best outcome here is to have boss realize they're on to a loser in the WRC and have a payoff to walk away from the job.

20-07-2018 6:15pm

Pkiernan wrote: »

This is an absurd and reckless statement.
You don't know what you are talking about.

It’s not at all absurd or reckless.

Boss is away, employee takes materials without permission and produces printed goods for her own family member, fails to inform employer, waits until caught, admits to taking materials and producing printed goods for her sister and is somehow surprised that her boss considers it to be theft.

No excuse for it.

It wasn’t her material to take. It wasn’t her printer and consumables to use. She’s a part time near minimum wage employee, not an owner or manager with the right to give gratuity to anyone; It wasn’t her right to give anything produced from her employers resources free of charge to anyone, family or otherwise. And she knew it when she was doing it. Her sister knew it also or she would have asked her friend, the OP’s boss.

It was theft. Plain and simple. No request to use resources, failure to inform boss in any way, no effort to make even a token offer. The OP said herself that she’s 100% in the wrong. She knows it and isn’t denying it.

A lot of people don’t want to call a spade a spade here but that’s what it is. And OP, with 2 sales to your mam, 1 to you and 1 to your former boss, your sister and you really didn’t need to be making business cards anyway.

20-07-2018 6:18pm

Pkiernan wrote: »

This is an absurd and reckless statement.
You don't know what you are talking about.

I’d also suggest that if you want to participate, you might contribute something more than sweeping dismissive statements. Articulate your point if you have one to make.

davo10 · 20-07-2018 6:19pm

There is some amount of incorrect info on this thread.

Yes you can be subject to summary dismissal in certain instances, but the employer must still follow procedure and the employee must be given the opportunity to answer the allegations. All Dismissals, even summary type, are deemed unfair until proven otherwise.

Please read this:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/dismissal/fair_grounds_for_dismissal.html

Taking the ops description at face value, it seems she was very harshly treated and certainly has a case for unfair dismissal which the employer would find hard to defend. The op may have done wrong, but that does not mean she can be fired without the employer going through the necessary procedure to dismiss her.

Having said that, the op will have to consider the potential reputational damage which may result from a WRC case and the effect an accusation of theft which the employer would no doubt level against her as the reason for summary dismissal, would have on her career. The employer has the evidence in the form of the card obtained when she bought an item from the business owned by the ops sister.

Effectively the op has to decide whether a UD case would be worth the hassle, or whether it is better just to move on and accept that using your employers equipment to provide items for her own external, freelance work isn't on.

givyjoe · 20-07-2018 6:21pm

davo10 wrote: »

There is some amount of incorrect info on this thread.

Yes you can be subject to summary dismissal in certain instances, but the employer must still follow procedure and the employee must be given the opportunity to answer the allegations. All Dismissals, even summary type, are deemed unfair until proven otherwise.

Please read this:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/dismissal/fair_grounds_for_dismissal.html

Taking the ops description at face value, it seems she was very harshly treated and certainly has a case for unfair dismissal which the employer would find hard to defend. The op may have done wrong, but that does not mean she can be fired without the employer going through the necessary procedure to dismiss her.

Having said that, the op will have to consider the potential reputational damage which may result from a WRC case and the effect an accusation of theft which the employer would no doubt level against her as the reason for summary dismissal, would have on her career. The employer has the evidence in the form of the card obtained when she bought an item from the business owned by the ops sister.

Effectively the op has to decide whether a UD case would be worth the hassle, or whether it is better just to move on and accept that using your employers equipment to provide items for her own external, freelance work isn't on.

I haven't get caught up on the 10 pages, has it been established that the op is indeed actually an employee and not a self employed free lancer? If it's the latter then it really doesn't matter what the circumstances, unfair dismissal legislation only applies to employees.

I see she has indeed confirmed being an employee. Employer is on seriously dodgy ground and very much open to an unfair dismissals case.

No contract, no defined disciplinary procedure. Custom and practice of being allowed to use work material for personal use before. Almost nailed on to lose a case if taken, employer I mean. Doesn't seem like there are any procedures in place, never mind following them.

20-07-2018 6:25pm

OP admitted it when she attended the office at employers request and was presented with a printing log and one of the business cards in question. She was informed that it constitutes theft and her keys were taken and she was dismissed. What else do you expect her employer to do procedurally?

Diceicle · 20-07-2018 6:28pm

'stole' and 'theft' being bandied about in this thread like they're going out of style. What OP did was akin to get canned for taking a few pens home from work. Who hasn't done that?
Employer overplayed her hand and should pony up to pay OP off to walk away.

davo10 · 20-07-2018 6:29pm

JayZeus wrote: »

OP admitted it when she attended the office at employers request and was presented with a printing log and one of the business cards in question. She was informed that it constitutes theft and her keys were taken and she was dismissed. What else do you expect her employer to do procedurally?

They have to follow the disciplinary procedure set out in the employees contract or handbook.

Under the unfair dismissals legislation employers are required to give the employee in written notice of the procedures to be followed before an employee is dismissed. This must be done within 28 days of entering the contract of employment.

CiarraiAbu2 · 20-07-2018 6:36pm

JayZeus wrote: »

OP admitted it when she attended the office at employers request and was presented with a printing log and one of the business cards in question. She was informed that it constitutes theft and her keys were taken and she was dismissed. What else do you expect her employer to do procedurally?

Should have been suspended until an investigation took place. I know it sounds ridiculous and what you are writing is correct but the employer will lose this if it goes to the wrc.

Sarn · 20-07-2018 6:41pm

The OP needs to clarify with their employer if they’ve been suspended or fired.

sexmag · 20-07-2018 6:42pm

JayZeus wrote: »

OP admitted it when she attended the office at employers request and was presented with a printing log and one of the business cards in question. She was informed that it constitutes theft and her keys were taken and she was dismissed. What else do you expect her employer to do procedurally?

Op has the right to be called to a interview in written with their employer, what the interview is about,have a representative attend with them and answer the allegations. Did this not happen

221B · 20-07-2018 6:49pm

I want to thank everyone who has answered this post, I've learnt some very useful information. To be honest it's all spiralled a little, I originally just wanted to know if I should ask for my P45, I won't be making a complaint against her or trying to take her to court. We live in a very close knit small community where things like that just don't happen, I would completely ruin my reputation. I've been casting my mind back trying to think if something like this has happened before and I realised it had. I'd created a lovely watercolour floral design which we never ended up using so I threw the test print in the bin, later as I was emptying the bins I felt it was a shame to throw it away so I took it home to put in my scrapbook, a scrapbook I never show anyone. I mentioned this a few weeks later in passing and my boss absolutely lost it, said I was stealing from her because I had created the design while on the clock. I immediately threw it away when I got home. I guess what I'm asking is do I have any rights to the designs I've made in that studio? I've created maybe 50 or 60 over the two years. Should I go back to retrieve the files so I can use them for my portfolio or should I just cut my losses?

scamalert · 20-07-2018 6:50pm

sexmag wrote: »

Op has the right to be called to a interview in written with their employer, what the interview is about,have a representative attend with them and answer the allegations. Did this not happen

someone who at least knows how it should been done.

Yet most speak like there was stabbing committed, or studio cleared when were talking under 10e damages if even so.

cut your losses in this case- as you said you created them while on the clock or either got paid during time there.

NotInventedHere · 20-07-2018 6:56pm

JayZeus wrote: »

The OP admitted it to her boss. She was then dismissed. There is no other angle to this and no other obligations on the part of the employer to follow any other prescribed steps. The OP didn’t deny it, so she’s gone. Black and white.

Nope you are absolutely wrong about that. There is a very specific process to be followed that has to "fair and reasonable" Even for gross misconduct.

davo10 · 20-07-2018 7:02pm

221B wrote: »

I want to thank everyone who has answered this post, I've learnt some very useful information. To be honest it's all spiralled a little, I originally just wanted to know if I should ask for my P45, I won't be making a complaint against her or trying to take her to court. We live in a very close knit small community where things like that just don't happen, I would completely ruin my reputation. I've been casting my mind back trying to think if something like this has happened before and I realised it had. I'd created a lovely watercolour floral design which we never ended up using so I threw the test print in the bin, later as I was emptying the bins I felt it was a shame to throw it away so I took it home to put in my scrapbook, a scrapbook I never show anyone. I mentioned this a few weeks later in passing and my boss absolutely lost it, said I was stealing from her because I had created the design while on the clock. I immediately threw it away when I got home. I guess what I'm asking is do I have any rights to the designs I've made in that studio? I've created maybe 50 or 60 over the two years. Should I go back to retrieve the files so I can use them for my portfolio or should I just cut my losses?

If you designed it while working and being paid by your employer, it's probably her IP.

Just throwing this out there, considering your boss knows your sister, is it possible their is an issue between them and she is unhappy your sister is using an unpaid for product produced in your employer's business?

221B · 20-07-2018 7:11pm

davo10 wrote: »

If you designed it while working and being paid by your employer, it's probably her IP.

Just throwing this out there, considering your boss knows your sister, is it possible their is an issue between them and she is unhappy your sister is using an unpaid for product produced in your employer's business?

Just want to clarify something about a post a few before yours; I didn't create the business cards on the clock, I designed them at home and printed them after I'd closed the studio, I probably should've clarified earlier as well that they weren't really business cards per say, they were little white squares with some greenery at the top and my sister's username at the bottom. They were meant for backing for the earrings to sit on when they were packaged.

There's no beef whatsoever between my boss and my sister, she absolutely adores her and has been trying to help her shop to expand, giving her tips, telling her about facebook groups for other young women starting businesses. My sister has been suffering with severe depression for a few years now and we've been trying to actively encourage her jewellry making. So I don't think it's anything to do with that.

runawaybishop · 20-07-2018 7:11pm

sexmag wrote: »

Op has the right to be called to a interview in written with their employer, what the interview is about,have a representative attend with them and answer the allegations. Did this not happen

Gross misconduct may give rise to instant (summary) dismissal without notice or pay in lieu of notice. Examples of gross misconduct include assault, drunkenness, stealing, bullying or serious breach of your employer's policies and practices. Your contract of employment may contain further information concerning gross misconduct.

Your employer will need to investigate each situation adequately to obtain all the facts of the case. Except in cases of gross misconduct, you must have been given appropriate warnings about your conduct and been made aware that dismissal might result if the problems continue.

Stealing is gross misconduct and can result in summary dismissal.

sexmag · 20-07-2018 7:16pm

runawaybishop wrote: »

Gross misconduct may give rise to instant (summary) dismissal without notice or pay in lieu of notice. Examples of gross misconduct include assault, drunkenness, stealing, bullying or serious breach of your employer's policies and practices. Your contract of employment may contain further information concerning gross misconduct.

Your employer will need to investigate each situation adequately to obtain all the facts of the case. Except in cases of gross misconduct, you must have been given appropriate warnings about your conduct and been made aware that dismissal might result if the problems continue.

Stealing is gross misconduct and can result in summary dismissal.

Yes however there are things employers need to do that will cover themselves.

As this was a talk there's nothing stopping op showing up to work as normal tomorrow or Monday and working away. Her boss can say she fired her but without anything in writting it's a she said she said situation and these always leave everyone open to problems but ad an employer she has a duty to do it right or get caught out and fined

Diceicle · 20-07-2018 7:22pm

221B wrote: »

I want to thank everyone who has answered this post, I've learnt some very useful information. To be honest it's all spiralled a little, I originally just wanted to know if I should ask for my P45, I won't be making a complaint against her or trying to take her to court. We live in a very close knit small community where things like that just don't happen, I would completely ruin my reputation. I've been casting my mind back trying to think if something like this has happened before and I realised it had. I'd created a lovely watercolour floral design which we never ended up using so I threw the test print in the bin, later as I was emptying the bins I felt it was a shame to throw it away so I took it home to put in my scrapbook, a scrapbook I never show anyone. I mentioned this a few weeks later in passing and my boss absolutely lost it, said I was stealing from her because I had created the design while on the clock. I immediately threw it away when I got home. I guess what I'm asking is do I have any rights to the designs I've made in that studio? I've created maybe 50 or 60 over the two years. Should I go back to retrieve the files so I can use them for my portfolio or should I just cut my losses?

Does the close knit community thing swing both ways ¿ what with her being a wagon to u etc.

scamalert · 20-07-2018 7:23pm

221B wrote: »

Just want to clarify something about a post a few before yours; I didn't create the business cards on the clock, I designed them at home and printed them after I'd closed the studio, I probably should've clarified earlier as well that they weren't really business cards per say, they were little white squares with some greenery at the top and my sister's username at the bottom. They were meant for backing for the earrings to sit on when they were packaged.

There's no beef whatsoever between my boss and my sister, she absolutely adores her and has been trying to help her shop to expand, giving her tips, telling her about facebook groups for other young women starting businesses. My sister has been suffering with severe depression for a few years now and we've been trying to actively encourage her jewellry making. So I don't think it's anything to do with that.

Cut ties with your boss shes not your friend - from everything you wrote seems shes a bit twisted on the side, get your p45 good designers get by use your skills as freelance and build up your portfolio, grand you made few mistakes using not your equipment but cmon cost of making 100 business cards is about 2euro know that from the trade, you maybe used few sheets at best my guess, people like that are the worst, could been simple notify me next time and pay up, or fair dismissal not going rogue like you burned the place down.

givyjoe · 20-07-2018 7:24pm

sexmag wrote: »

Op has the right to be called to a interview in written with their employer, what the interview is about,have a representative attend with them and answer the allegations. Did this not happen

Exactly, and employers will.almost always lose the.case for these reasons.

221B · 20-07-2018 7:32pm

Diceicle wrote: »

Does the close knit community thing swing both ways ¿ what with her being a wagon to u etc.

Unfortunately not, I'm foreign so not well liked because of that, despite living here for 13 years. She's a well established member of the community and is on the town council, she's also twice my age so I'm afraid if it's my word against hers she'll win every time.

davo10 · 20-07-2018 7:39pm

221B wrote: »

Unfortunately not, I'm foreign so not well liked because of that, despite living here for 13 years. She's a well established member of the community and is on the town council, she's also twice my age so I'm afraid if it's my word against hers she'll win every time.

In a WRC hearing, her standing in the community counts for nothing, in fact, she has a hell of a lot more to loose than you. Your reputation may be damaged, hers would be shredded.

While I think what you did was naive and probably due to inexperience, the more details you give, the more I sympathise with you and think she is a bad business woman/employer. If you can accept the risks to your reputation, take her to the cleaners.

A smart move may be to make sure inform her of your intention to contest the dismissal in the WRC, and wait to see what she offers.

listermint · 20-07-2018 7:40pm

221B wrote: »

Unfortunately not, I'm foreign so not well liked because of that, despite living here for 13 years. She's a well established member of the community and is on the town council, she's also twice my age so I'm afraid if it's my word against hers she'll win every time.

Not in he labour relations court I'm afraid.

She sounds off her hat. Doesn't seem to know how good she has it.tbh

rock22 · 20-07-2018 7:41pm

davo10 wrote: »

If you designed it while working and being paid by your employer, it's probably her IP.

Just throwing this out there, considering your boss knows your sister, is it possible their is an issue between them and she is unhappy your sister is using an unpaid for product produced in your employer's business?

Check your contact of employment. If you are employed as a designer then davo10 is right. But if you are employed in a more general capacity then it is at least arguable that the designs are your IP. IF your contract does not make this clear then I believe the assumption is that you own the IP, your boss would have to show that you were employed by her to do the design work for her and the designs were work for hire.

Her reaction to you retrieving the art work from the bin is telling. You said the workplace was very informal but the attitude of your boss would suggest she is not relaxed about her business.

You need to decide where you want to take this. But you do need to clarify if you have been dismissed. You may not be entitled to unemployment benefit if you are seen to leave voluntarily.

DoozerT6 · 20-07-2018 7:42pm

What are your employment options where you live now? Are you in a position to move to a bigger town? Because no matter what the outcome of any chat you may have with her when the dust settles a bit, even if things are eventually resolved in a relatively cordial manner, neither of you will ever have the same relationship with each other again. Personally I could never work either for or with her again after what happened (I'm not going to comment on the event itself). I would never feel comfortable in her company or trust her entirely - and she may feel exactly the same about you!

I think your best bet would be to contact her on Monday, listen to her side calmly, present your own answers calmly, wish her the best of luck in the future and then ask her formally for your P45. If she drags her heels on this for any reason, you may have to resort to sending a solicitors letter.

You may have to put this whole episode behind you and move somewhere else, if the community is as you say it is. You may not get another job similar to what you're qualified for in a small close-knit area, especially if you've dirtied your bib in one business already.

evolving_doors · 20-07-2018 8:00pm

I don't think anyone has mentioned this but anyway...

Just get sister to send email and ask how much she owes for the work!
Not stealing then.

davo10 · 20-07-2018 8:10pm

evolving_doors wrote: »

I don't think anyone has mentioned this but anyway...

Just get sister to send email and ask how much she owes for the work!
Not stealing then.

Nice thought, but in reality it doesn't work after you've been caught out, if anything it is confirmation that it should have been paid for in the first place.

3DataModem · 20-07-2018 8:32pm

Cushie Butterfield wrote: »

No warning, disciplinary meeting etc required for stealing (gross misconduct), unless OP denies any knowledge of the theft.
Request P45 from employer

Exactly. I’d write to her, request P45, but also explain exactly as you’ve done here what happened.

20-07-2018 8:37pm

runawaybishop wrote: »

Gross misconduct may give rise to instant (summary) dismissal without notice or pay in lieu of notice. Examples of gross misconduct include assault, drunkenness, stealing, bullying or serious breach of your employer's policies and practices. Your contract of employment may contain further information concerning gross misconduct.

Your employer will need to investigate each situation adequately to obtain all the facts of the case. Except in cases of gross misconduct, you must have been given appropriate warnings about your conduct and been made aware that dismissal might result if the problems continue.

Stealing is gross misconduct and can result in summary dismissal.

you will not stop posting fanfiction in this thread

who hurt u

mr_edge_to_you · 20-07-2018 8:40pm

Strange situation. It kind of sounds like the scenario in High Fidelity where all these people were working in a record store but no one actually knew where they came from. They just hung around long enough that no one noticed they were standing behind the till.

Go back to yesterday - I get that you enjoyed the work but why would you want to work for someone who pays you the minimum wage but only for a portion of the hours you work? If I was on a minimum wage job I’d be clocking in and out as necessary.

You’re obviously good at your job and have some level of established freelance business. Get your P45, let your c*** of a former employer off and grow your own business.

Glass fused light · 20-07-2018 8:54pm

runawaybishop wrote: »

Glass fused light wrote: »

The bold bit is the process that the employer must follow, they can't legally sack someone on the spot..

Yes they can, that's what summary dismissal is and the legislation reflects this. Employers can instantly dismiss someone for gross misconduct under certain circumstances, stealing being one.

Can you please reference the legistation which allows an employer to sack an employee without any form of disiplinary process or disiplinary meeting

Glass fused light · 20-07-2018 9:21pm

221B wrote: »

.

There's no beef whatsoever between my boss and my sister, she absolutely adores her and has been trying to help her shop to expand, giving her tips, telling her about facebook groups for other young women starting businesses. My sister has been suffering with severe depression for a few years now and we've been trying to actively encourage her jewellry making. So I don't think it's anything to do with that.

Sorry but unless your Ex-boss has a split personality or she just found out one or both of you were sleeping with her partner she is not and was never your friend nor your sisters.
Friends don't brood for a month after their friend has run their business for them for a couple of months while they were on holidays, without bring up the print job. They dont then sack that friend over printing 20 business cards for someone they adore.

sexmag wrote: »

As this was a talk there's nothing stopping op showing up to work as normal tomorrow or Monday and working away. Her boss can say she fired her but without anything in writting it's a she said she said situation and these always leave everyone open to problems but ad an employer she has a duty to do it right or get caught out and fined

She could do this but if she is working for 1/10 of what she can potentially earn she is better off developing and marketing her skills to new clients than working for someone who has no respect or appreciation for her as an employee.

3DataModem wrote: »

Exactly. I’d write to her, request P45,

OP do this

3DataModem wrote: »

Exactly. I’d write to her, ... , but also explain exactly as you’ve done here what happened.

But definitely do not put anything in writing trying to explain anything.

BrianBoru00 · 20-07-2018 10:52pm

Glass fused light wrote: »

Can you please reference the legistation which allows an employer to sack an employee without any form of disiplinary process or disiplinary meeting

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/dismissal/fair_grounds_for_dismissal.html

Scroll down to grounds for dismissal.

However the employee should have a copy of the terms in hardcopy.

JayZeus wrote: »

It’s not at all absurd or reckless.

Boss is away, employee takes materials without permission and produces printed goods for her own family member, fails to inform employer, waits until caught, admits to taking materials and producing printed goods for her sister and is somehow surprised that her boss considers it to be theft.

No excuse for it.

It wasn’t her material to take. It wasn’t her printer and consumables to use. [1]She’s a part time near minimum wage employee, not an owner or manager with the right to give gratuity to anyone; It wasn’t her right to give anything produced from her employers resources free of charge to anyone, family or otherwise. And she knew it when she was doing it. Her sister knew it also or she would have asked her friend, the OP’s boss.

[2]It was theft. Plain and simple. No request to use resources, failure to inform boss in any way, no effort to make even a token offer. The OP said herself that she’s 100% in the wrong. She knows it and isn’t denying it.

A lot of people don’t want to call a spade a spade here but that’s what it is. And OP, with 2 sales to your mam, 1 to you and 1 to your former boss, your sister and you really didn’t need to be making business cards anyway.

#1 Her wages are completely irrelevant, its at best ambiguous as to what "authority" she had but given she had a set of keys to the office it was obvious she was trusted to some degree.

#2
You quite plainly do not understand the law of the land. It's certainly not plain and simple. Saying shes in the wrong does not equate with shes guilty of theft.

kurtainsider · 21-07-2018 1:26am

It sound like your boss has some serious issues. Her behavior towards you has been abominable if your account of the relationship is taken at face value.

She's coming across here as an abusive bully.

I think that she's pushed and pushed and pushed and gotten away with it every time.

Are you going to allow yourself to be pushed every time?

Some people are suggesting that you learn from it. I agree with them. How about making it a learning experience for her as well?

Ursus Horribilis · 21-07-2018 1:35am

mr_edge_to_you wrote: »

Go back to yesterday - I get that you enjoyed the work but why would you want to work for someone who pays you the minimum wage but only for a portion of the hours you work? If I was on a minimum wage job I’d be clocking in and out as necessary.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought this was strange. I know very little about the print business but it sounds like you've been very much undervaluing your skillset and underselling yourself. This woman doesn't sound like a nice person and it seems you're somewhat in thrall to her. If it was me, I wouldn't bother chasing this up. You're never going to get a reference from her so there ends her usefulness to you. I'd work on building up my own business and not be too bothered if I ended up encroaching in on her territory. Sometimes learning that employers don't value your hard work/personal inconvenience is the best lesson in the world. The less they pay you, the less they think of you.

Unless we're all missing something here, this sounds like a massive over-reaction to something that's very minor. I doubt there are very many people who aren't guilty of taking advantage of their employer's facilities to some extent. Be it using the office printer to print off their own stuff, using the internet for personal use, looking at boards.ie on their phone during working hours, pocketing office stationery/pens. It's something that merited a warning but it certainly wasn't a sackable offence in my book.

meathstevie · 21-07-2018 1:55am

Fann Linn wrote: »

No. The onus is on the employer to follow grievance procedures. You can admit robbing AIB to the gardai but they still have to prove it.

No, your admission is the conclusive evidence and admissible if proper interview procedure was followed.

It's like pleading guilty in court, the trial bit gets skipped and the court proceeds straight to sentencing.

Glass fused light · 21-07-2018 6:40am

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

Glass fused light wrote: »

Can you please reference the legistation which allows an employer to sack an employee without any form of disiplinary process or disiplinary meeting

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/dismissal/fair_grounds_for_dismissal.html

Scroll down to grounds for dismissal.

However the employee should have a copy of the terms in hardcopy.

The first paragraphs in the link explains the opposite.

Introduction
If you are dismissed from your employment you may, under certain conditions, bring a claim for unfair dismissal against your employer. Apart from a case involving constructive dismissal a dismissal is presumed to be unfair unless your employer can show substantial grounds to justify it.

So if you qualify to bring a claim and there was a dismissal, your employer has to prove that the dismissal was a fair one, that is, that there were fair grounds for the dismissal and that fair procedures were followed.

Note the obligation to investigate in this paragraph on gross misconduct?

Your employer will need to investigate each situation adequately to obtain all the facts of the case. Except in cases of gross misconduct, you must have been given appropriate warnings about your conduct and been made aware that dismissal might result if the problems continue. If this has been done, the dismissal is fair, because you have been given a chance to improve your conduct.

sexmag · 21-07-2018 8:10am

meathstevie wrote: »

No, your admission is the conclusive evidence and admissible if proper interview procedure was followed.

It's like pleading guilty in court, the trial bit gets skipped and the court proceeds straight to sentencing.

Ay but how does the employer prove op admitted it? She didn't give her a formal invitation to a meeting,didn't have her sign anything. Your analogy is correct but as op was not in court and it was just her and her boss talking boss,it's a he said she said situation regarding the termination,op can show up on Monday and continue to work and without any official written record that her boss fired her, her boss won't be able to stop her that's why there are procedures, to protect both employee and employer

Avatar MIA · 21-07-2018 8:43am

runawaybishop wrote: »

Stealing is gross misconduct and can result in summary dismissal.

The materiality of the item stolen has to be taken into account. Technically using a company biro to write a note on your hand to not forget to collect your dry cleaning after work is stealing the company ink (extreme example), likewise stealing a company bic biro. Not enough to be fired over.

Here the OP stole the company ink (more so than the scrap card). Again, not enough to be fired for Gross misconduct on its own, and certainly not without due process. It would be enough to lead to an investigation under the disciplinary procedure and a verbal warning (for first documented offence). Black and White indeed.

Yes, OP the designs you worked on during company time would likely be considered your employer's property.

But, your employer seems a little unhinged. You'll pick up loads of those kind of jobs, although she's being even shítier by not giving you a reference. Goes to show she was never really your friend, unless she's now suffering from some mental breakdown.

Bobeagleburger · 21-07-2018 8:58am

No way is this enough for a sacking. Stand your ground OP. If she fires you get legal advice immediately. I very much doubt she has grounds for firing, and also she didn't follow the correct protocols.

If you accept the sacking, you'll just be branded a thief.

gct · 21-07-2018 9:05am

That employer is just a lousy so and so. After all You've done for her! Get Your P45 and get yourself to workplace relations. I don't know if You clocked in or out while You worked there but put in a claim/invoice for every unpaid hour you have ever worked. Don't let her steal Your time after treating You that way. Then Move on. You can do better!

Fired with no notice

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