Fired with no notice

221B

I've been working in a tiny print studio for the last two years, there's only three of us, the boss, myself and another coworker. I've worked three or four days a week from the start depending on how busy it is, I freelance as a graphic designer the other days of the week.

It's a pretty unconventional work place, there isn't really any boss/employee dynamic and we see each other outside of work as well, it's always felt more like friends working together. It's only a part time job but it's such a big part of my life I moved back in with my parents to be closer to the studio.

I like to think I'm a good employee, able to come in at a moments notice, working even when my dad was in the hospital, staying until 9 or 10 at night sometimes and working a lot of unpaid hours to help out my coworker when it was busy. I've been doing graphic designs jobs for my boss for the last year or so as well, I only get paid a little more than minimum wage which is about a tenth of what I charge my other clients but I've never really minded since I enjoyed working there.

Long story short, my boss was away for a couple months on annual leave so I was working in the studio by myself. My sister has a tiny Etsy shop where she sells homemade earrings, she couldn't afford business cards and begged me to print off a few at the studio. I designed them at home and printed them in my own time using scrap card. In hindsight I definitely should've asked my boss first, that's completely on me, but it was a 10 minute job and she'd always allowed me to print personal things before. She was also on a boat at the time with spotty reception.

Fast forward to today, she's been acting weird for the last month or so, being really stand offish and straight up ignoring me at times. I didn't think much of it, assumed she was going through something personal. She asks me to come into work early, I do and she greets me like normal, asks how my weekend was etc., then she asks if she can look at my keys so I give them to her. She comes back and that's when she tells me she knows i've printed those business cards. I had no idea what she was talking about, I'd forgotten all about them, but then she confronts me with the 'evidence'. A print list that said a file had been printed that she didn't recognise, she had also ordered a pair of my sisters earrings under a presumably false name to compare the card stock of the business card that came with them with the card we have in the studio. She took my keys to the studio and said I wouldn't be getting a reference because I'd stolen from her.

I'm assuming this means I'm fired but I've had zero notice, I know what I did was wrong and I apologised profusely but I don't know what to do next, do I ask for my P45? I'm hesitant to contact her since the whole situation has shaken me quite badly. Any advice would be very much appreciated.

ludalyni

221B wrote: »

I've been working in a tiny print studio for the last two years, there's only three of us, the boss, myself and another coworker. I've worked three or four days a week from the start depending on how busy it is, I freelance as a graphic designer the other days of the week.

It's a pretty unconventional work place, there isn't really any boss/employee dynamic and we see each other outside of work as well, it's always felt more like friends working together. It's only a part time job but it's such a big part of my life I moved back in with my parents to be closer to the studio.

I like to think I'm a good employee, able to come in at a moments notice, working even when my dad was in the hospital, staying until 9 or 10 at night sometimes and working a lot of unpaid hours to help out my coworker when it was busy. I've been doing graphic designs jobs for my boss for the last year or so as well, I only get paid a little more than minimum wage which is about a tenth of what I charge my other clients but I've never really minded since I enjoyed working there.

Long story short, my boss was away for a couple months on annual leave so I was working in the studio by myself. My sister has a tiny Etsy shop where she sells homemade earrings, she couldn't afford business cards and begged me to print off a few at the studio. I designed them at home and printed them in my own time using scrap card. In hindsight I definitely should've asked my boss first, that's completely on me, but it was a 10 minute job and she'd always allowed me to print personal things before. She was also on a boat at the time with spotty reception.

Fast forward to today, she's been acting weird for the last month or so, being really stand offish and straight up ignoring me at times. I didn't think much of it, assumed she was going through something personal. She asks me to come into work early, I do and she greets me like normal, asks how my weekend was etc., then she asks if she can look at my keys so I give them to her. She comes back and that's when she tells me she knows i've printed those business cards. I had no idea what she was talking about, I'd forgotten all about them, but then she confronts me with the 'evidence'. A print list that said a file had been printed that she didn't recognise, she had also ordered a pair of my sisters earrings under a presumably false name to compare the card stock of the business card that came with them with the card we have in the studio. She was acting like I'd murdered her dog in front of her instead of printing something without permission. She'd taken my keys to the studio and said I wouldn't be getting a reference because I'd stolen from her.

I'm assuming this means I'm fired but I've had zero notice, I know what I did was wrong and I apologised profusely but I don't know what to do next, do I ask for my P45? I'm hesitant to contact her since the whole situation has shaken me quite badly. Any advice would be very much appreciated.

Based on the information you've provided, you would have a slam dunk unfair dismissal case against your former employer.

While you might have done something wrong, you still have a statutory right to be brought through some form of process before being dismissed (ie investigation, right to be told of the complaint, disciplinary meeting with an opportunity to put forward your side of the story, appeal etc etc). I recommend you get yourself to a good solicitor or go to the Workplace Relations Commission website for more info.

Postgrad10

Citizens information would be best. But do you have a contract ? Quite certain she would have to go through a warning system first. How long ago did you print those cards? Seems like she was holding on to it as an excuse to let you go.

221B

ludalyni wrote: »

Based on the information you've provided, you would have a slam dunk unfair dismissal case against your former employer.

While you might have done something wrong, you still have a statutory right to be brought through some form of process before being dismissed (ie investigation, right to be told of the complaint, disciplinary meeting with an opportunity to put forward your side of the story, appeal etc etc). I recommend you get yourself to a good solicitor or go to the Workplace Relations Commission website for more info.

It's always been a very informal workplace so that might be why she didn't take the proper steps, I'll have a look at that website, thank you.

davo10

221B wrote: »

It's always been a very informal workplace so that might be why she didn't take the proper steps, I'll have a look at that website, thank you.

Were you paid a weekly wage or was it as you described with others you do work for, freelance?

ludalyni

221B wrote: »

It's always been a very informal workplace so that might be why she didn't take the proper steps, I'll have a look at that website, thank you.

Regardless of how informal it is, she still has certain statutory obligations towards her employees. You should have been given a disciplinary policy on commencement on employment and that policy should have been followed in effecting your dismissal.

If you don't have a contract then you can also bring a claim under the Terms of Employment (Information) Act 1994 (info also on the WRC website).

While you might have done something wrong, the punishment doesn't really seem to fit the crime in this case.

221B

Postgrad10 wrote: »

Citizens information would be best. But do you have a contract ? Quite certain she would have to go through a warning system first. How long ago did you print those cards? Seems like she was holding on to it as an excuse to let you go.

I do have a contract, I printed the cards maybe six weeks ago? I don't know why she'd want to fire me for another reason, she'd be very hard pressed to find someone else to do that level of graphic design work that cheap.

Cushie Butterfield

No warning, disciplinary meeting etc required for stealing (gross misconduct), unless OP denies any knowledge of the theft.
Request P45 from employer

endacl

221B wrote: »

she'd be very hard pressed to find someone else to do that level of graphic design work that cheap.

I'd agree. Time to move on, I'd say.

Rulmeq

221B wrote: »

I do have a contract, I printed the cards maybe six weeks ago? I don't know why she'd want to fire me for another reason, she'd be very hard pressed to find someone else to do that level of graphic design work that cheap.

Are you paid a wage/salary, and receive payslips, and a p60, or do you send her an invoice?


The fact that you're unsure if you have even been fired would suggest that you're not actually an employee, but a freelancer who had access to her office and equipment? If you are an employee she would have to issue you with a P45 if you were let go.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

Pelvis

The argument could be made that "stealing" might fall under gross misconduct and I don't think would require any investigation process or notice.

Still though, I'd definitely be seeking legal advice.

Kristopherus

OP, has the boss actually told you she's firing you?

ludalyni

Cushie Butterfield wrote: »

No warning, disciplinary meeting etc required for stealing (gross misconduct), unless OP denies any knowledge of the theft.
Request P45 from employer

That's incorrect. Employees are still entitled to be brought through a process in cases of gross misconduct. An employer can impose dismissal as a sanction following the process but you can't just approach an employe without giving him any notice of the meeting, put the allegations to him and then fire him. The employee is entitled to time to prepare a response, to bring someone along with him to the meeting etc.

221B

Rulmeq wrote: »

Are you paid a wage/salary, and receive payslips, and a p60, or do you send her an invoice?


The fact that you're unsure if you have even been fired would suggest that you're not actually an employee, but a freelancer who had access to her office and equipment? If you are an employee she would have to issue you with a P45 if you were let go.

I'm paid hourly, I'm definitely an employee, I receive payslips and I don't invoice her.

davo10

You said you printed stuff for personal use before, but what you printed was not for personal use, you printed cards for another business, free of charge without the permission of your boss. Your boss waited until she had conclusive evidence, she has the file, the print doc and the card itself, gotten from your sisters company. No doubt you have a strong case for unfair dismissal due to failure of your boss to follow procedure, but prepare to get rinsed in the process for theft, and because you freelance, other printers may not trust you in case you do the same for another of your clients.

221B

Cushie Butterfield wrote: »

No warning, disciplinary meeting etc required for stealing (gross misconduct), unless OP denies any knowledge of the theft.
Request P45 from employer

I hate to think that I was stealing, I would never do that intentionally but I still royally f'ed up. This is why the whole thing is such a grey area. To everyone one asking if she actually fired me, I assumed her taking my keys and telling me to get out was pretty clear cut, but maybe I'm wrong.

davo10

221B wrote: »

I hate to think that I was stealing, I would never do that intentionally but I still royally f'ed up. This is why the whole thing is such a grey area. To everyone one asking if she actually fired me, I assumed her taking my keys and telling me to get out was pretty clear cut, but maybe I'm wrong.

Printing cards for your sisters business without charging or informing your boss, is difficult to view as anything accept stealing. Your boss's business is cards.

You used her materials and equipment to produce a product which her business produces for the purpose of selling, without making any reasonable attempt to obtain permission, without charging even a small fee for the printing and without ever mentioning it to her.

You should have emailed or texted asking for her permission. Your sister could have waited until you heard back. You took materials, used her print machinery and consumables and denied her any opportunity to charge for it and worse still, you kept it secret from her. You knew you were wrong to do it when you did it.

It doesn’t matter what you think is fair or reasonable, and your pay has no bearing on it either. You had no right to use your employers materials without her consent. It’s black and white. You stole from your employer and she is fully entitled to exercise her right to throw you out using summary dismissal for your gross misconduct.

She doesn’t trust you. You are a thief as far as she’s concerned and nobody will punish her for firing you on the spot. You have no defense and no claim.

221B

davo10 wrote: »

Printing cards for your sisters business without charging or informing your boss, is difficult to view as anything accept stealing. Your boss's business is cards.

My boss's business isn't cards, we never do business cards. And it's a bit of a stretch to call my sisters' Etsy shop a business, there's also the personal factor where my boss and my sister are friends as well. I'd completely understand her reaction if I'd printed 200 cards off for a competing business but this was literally 20 on scrap paper for a tiny Etsy shop.

BrianBoru00

davo10 wrote: »

Printing cards for your sisters business without charging or informing your boss, is difficult to view as anything accept stealing. Your boss's business is cards.

Ah here.
If we're taking the OPs word It was a few business cards in a business dynamic that is very informal.

Not everything is black and white. I've worked in places where taking a postit nearly requires a requisition form and others where people taking a ream of paper was common practice - both private operations.

For theft to occur there has to be clear intent on the culprits part and as outlined they felt the informal atmosphere and the fact they had printed personally before meant they felt it was not theft just a "perk" of the job and one that does not appear to have been abused.

There must be more to the story as the boss is clearly using a sledge hammer to crack a peanut

Pelvis

ludalyni wrote: »

That's incorrect. Employees are still entitled to be brought through a process in cases of gross misconduct. An employer can impose dismissal as a sanction following the process but you can't just approach an employe without giving him any notice of the meeting, put the allegations to him and then fire him. The employee is entitled to time to prepare a response, to bring someone along with him to the meeting etc.

So if I got into my CEOs office and punch him in the face, he's required to follow an investigative process whereby he has to allege I punched him?

221B

221B wrote: »

I hate to think that I was stealing, I would never do that intentionally but I still royally f'ed up. This is why the whole thing is such a grey area. To everyone one asking if she actually fired me, I assumed her taking my keys and telling me to get out was pretty clear cut, but maybe I'm wrong.

There is no grey area. If your sister paid €10 for the cards and your told your boss on her return, you could have something to discuss.

You don’t. Learn from it and move on.

MarkR

Tell her you need something in writing to confirm the datails. Don't sign any waivers or agreements in the meantime. Speak to someone who is familiar with employment law, and take it from there. You're not going to get anywhere from speaking to her again, so cut your losses in that regard.

Fann Linn

Pelvis wrote: »

So if I got into my CEOs office and punch him in the face, he's required to follow an investigative process whereby he has to allege I punched him?

Yep.

davo10

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

Ah here.
If we're taking the OPs word It was a few business cards in a business dynamic that is very informal.

Not everything is black and white. I've worked in places where taking a postit nearly requires a requisition form and others where people taking a ream of paper was common practice - both private operations.

For theft to occur there has to be clear intent on the culprits part and as outlined they felt the informal atmosphere and the fact they had printed personally before meant they felt it was not theft just a "perk" of the job and one that does not appear to have been abused.

There must be more to the story as the boss is clearly using a sledge hammer to crack a peanut

Agreed, but I still think there is a difference between printing a few cards for yourself, and cards for a business. The op feels that just because his sisters business is small, it isn't a business, but it is. You and I might feel this is much ado about nothing, but as far as the ops boss is concerned, the op did wrong and she has the proof. The op will be painted as a thief in order to justify the dismissal.

I'm afraid I don't know what an "etsy shop" is, but if it's a shop, it's a business.

BrianBoru00

Pelvis wrote: »

So if I got into my CEOs office and punch him in the face, he's required to follow an investigative process whereby he has to allege I punched him?

Well if somebody on the street punches you in the head and you go to a garda station to report it then they don't arrest him straight away based on your allegation and may never arrest him. They investigate and prepare a case which their commanding officers or DPP look at and then decide to go ahead or not with a prosecution.
If that happens then the suspect goes through a trial and then sentencing if found guilty.

Due process.

Postgrad10

Contract and payslips . Then go with a constructive dismissal.
I didn't suggest you did anything else wrong, could be she has someone else in mind for your work or has decided to cut costs by not having you work there anymore.

davo10

davo10 wrote: »

Agreed, but I still think there is a difference between printing a few cards for yourself, and cards for a business. The op feels that just because his sisters business is small, it isn't a business, but it is. You and I might feel this is much ado about nothing, but as far as the ops boss is concerned, the op did wrong and she has the proof. The op will be painted as a thief in order to justify the dismissal.

The OP has been dismissed because he/she took their employers materials, used their equipment to benefit a third party without permission and was caught. The OP is entirely at fault and their boss can not reasonably be expected to believe that the OP, working freelance as a designer, has not done the same or printed greater quantity of materials for others in the past. It was a stupid thing to do.

221B

Just to clarify, I'm a woman in my early twenties, that doesn't make any difference but everyone is referring to me as 'him'.

Postgrad10

davo10 wrote: »

Agreed, but I still think there is a difference between printing a few cards for yourself, and cards for a business. The op feels that just because his sisters business is small, it isn't a business, but it is. You and I might feel this is much ado about nothing, but as far as the ops boss is concerned, the op did wrong and she has the proof. The op will be painted as a thief in order to justify the dismissal.

I'm afraid I don't know what an "etsy shop" is, but if it's a shop, it's a business.

It's like a small craft business from home that sells on a website called etsy.

Fann Linn

If, as the OP alleges the place is informal and social, I'd suggest holding fire on unfair dismissals for now and chance ringing his boss after the weekend and see if a face to face could be arranged to try and resolve the issue.


There does appear to be precedence whereby printing for non payment has been tolerated by the employer plus the op alleges no disciplinary procedures have been followed so a WRC or rights commissioner will see this as mitigation if it goes further.

Ball appears to be in the OPs court.

Liam McPoyle

Give her the weekend to calm down.

Go in to see her on Monday and apologise. Tell her that you only used pieces of scrap paper that were recycling bound anyway so you didn't think it would be a problem. As it was only 20 odd and she was on holidays at the time it slipped your mind to tell her as you did not want to disturb her for something you felt was trivial. Apologise again and leave it at that. If she is any way reasonable then she will realise how frivolous the whole thing is and will rescind the sacking.

Twelve Bar Blues

JayZeus wrote: »

It doesn’t matter what you think is fair or reasonable, and your pay has no bearing on it either. You had no right to use your employers materials without her consent. It’s black and white. You stole from your employer and she is fully entitled to exercise her right to throw you out using summary dismissal for your gross misconduct.

This couldn't be farther from what is correct.
First off, even if the employee and employer and the WRC all agree that the employee stole and should be fired, it must be done correctly. By firing a worker in this manner you are almost certainly leaving yourself open to being penalised.

I have personally experienced this, and I have seen it with a co-worker.
As unfair as it may seem, an employee has protections whilst being disciplined or being fired. Processes must be followed. Imagine the employee was accused of stealing, and unceremoniously fired with no chance of discussion and it was then found out to be untrue??

221B

JayZeus wrote: »

The OP has been dismissed because he/she took their employers materials, used their equipment to benefit a third party without permission and was caught. The OP is entirely at fault and their boss can not reasonably be expected to believe that the OP, working freelance as a designer, has not done the same or printed greater quantity of materials for others in the past. It was a stupid thing to do.

I've proven time and again to be a trustworthy employee, I 100% f'ed up and i'm not denying it, I'd be pissed too if I was her but she knows I've never done something like this before because she checks the print logs. (I also exclusively design book covers for my other clients so I wouldn't have needed to print anything for them.)

Postgrad10

Postgrad10 wrote: »

It's like a small craft business from home that sells on a website called etsy.

She sells crafts. She doesn’t give them away.

It’s a business. Whether she’s registered, makes any profit or pays taxes on the income or not, it’s still a business.

Fann Linn

Lots of people on here don't know a lot about unfair dismissals or disciplinary procedures. Could be costly if some of these posters are employers.

Pelvis

Pelvis wrote:

So if I got into my CEOs office and punch him in the face, he's required to follow an investigative process whereby he has to allege I punched him?

He would get you taken from the building and then send you a letter informing you that you have been put on leave pending a dismissal hearing with HR I think.

Twelve Bar Blues

Twelve Bar Blues wrote: »

This couldn't be farther from what is correct.
First off, even if the employee and employer and the WRC all agree that the employee stole and should be fired, it must be done correctly. By firing a worker in this manner you are almost certainly leaving yourself open to being penalised.

I have personally experienced this, and I have seen it with a co-worker.
As unfair as it may seem, an employee has protections whilst being disciplined or being fired. Processes must be followed. Imagine the employee was accused of stealing, and unceremoniously fired with no chance of discussion and it was then found out to be untrue??

The OP admitted it to her boss. She was then dismissed. There is no other angle to this and no other obligations on the part of the employer to follow any other prescribed steps. The OP didn’t deny it, so she’s gone. Black and white.

Postgrad10

JayZeus wrote: »

She sells crafts. She doesn’t give them away.

It’s a business. Whether she’s registered, makes any profit or pays taxes on the income or not, it’s still a business.

Did I say otherwise? Someone posted that they didn't know what etsy was, I explained what etsy was.

Fann Linn

Fann Linn wrote: »

Lots of people on here don't know a lot about unfair dismissals or disciplinary procedures. Could be costly if some of these posters are employers.

The number of posters who think the OP in this case is entitled to some ‘due process’ is nuts. She stole, she got caught, she admitted it, she’s gone.

Fann Linn

JayZeus wrote: »

The OP admitted it to her boss. She was then dismissed. There is no other angle to this and no other obligations on the part of the employer to follow any other prescribed steps. The OP didn’t deny it, so she’s gone. Black and white.

No. The onus is on the employer to follow grievance procedures. You can admit robbing AIB to the gardai but they still have to prove it.

Postgrad10

JayZeus wrote: »

The OP admitted it to her boss. She was then dismissed. There is no other angle to this and no other obligations on the part of the employer to follow any other prescribed steps. The OP didn’t deny it, so she’s gone. Black and white.

I took it that the OP originally denied doing the order ( or forgot) and that's why she was fired.

Fann Linn

JayZeus wrote: »

The number of posters who think the OP in this case is entitled to some ‘due process’ is nuts. She stole, she got caught, she admitted it, she’s gone.

I agree she 'stole'. Even the op agrees. However there is due process.

A case was only highlighted a few weeks back where allegedly a manager was rostering staff in return for seeking sexual favours from women.

He was rightly sacked however 'due process' wasn't followed and he received an award.

Fann Linn

Fann Linn wrote: »

No. The onus is on the employer to follow grievance procedures. You can admit robbing AIB to the gardai but they still have to prove it.

Do you want to read that back to yourself? Summary dismissal for gross misconduct is perfectly legal. If you work in a print studio and produce and take printed goods/materials without permission you have stolen from your employer. If you acknowledge taking them once caught, you can make all the excuses and rationalise whatever way you want and you’ll still be subject to a summary dismissal if the employer sees fit.

Jack Moore

ludalyni wrote: »

Based on the information you've provided, you would have a slam dunk unfair dismissal case against your former employer.

While you might have done something wrong, you still have a statutory right to be brought through some form of process before being dismissed (ie investigation, right to be told of the complaint, disciplinary meeting with an opportunity to put forward your side of the story, appeal etc etc). I recommend you get yourself to a good solicitor or go to the Workplace Relations Commission website for more info.

The op stole and if they ever want to work in print again they should apologise and move on.

Adamocovic

Don't know much from the legal standpoint so can't comment on that.

Seems odd that despite the close nit group and relationships you have that she is willing to fire you straight away for that, also considering the hours you say you work for the price.

If you printed a lot of business cards for another company you were working for or moving to I'd understand the anger but 20 business cards for your sisters and her friends endeavour seems very small. You should have asked for permission no doubt but it seems like a little thing to create such a big reaction in my eyes.

Not really aware of process of dismissal but that sounds very informal and not by the book, also the comment of not giving you a reference is very strong reaction, I would have assumed you would have been called for a meeting to discuss the situation and behaviour before she came to her conclusion, but the fact she sat on this, did some odd Colombo style confirmation goes to show she had her mind made up.

Jack Moore

Fann Linn wrote: »

I agree she 'stole'. Even the op agrees. However there is due process.

A case was only highlighted a few weeks back where allegedly a manager was rostering staff in return for seeking sexual favours from women.

He was rightly sacked however 'due process' wasn't followed and he received an award.

Link please

cup of tea

JayZeus wrote: »

The number of posters who think the OP in this case is entitled to some ‘due process’ is nuts. She stole, she got caught, she admitted it, she’s gone.

Just a general response as opposed to specifically referring to the OP's specific scenario.I deal with employment law. Your comments are completely off the mark, I see above you were corrected however you seem to have ignored the corrections.

This is the very reason why legal advice isn't permitted on boards. The prescribed process must be followed or else the employer is in dodgy territory. Similar to landlord/tenant law, if your tenant has stopped paying rent, you can't just decided to turf all their belongings out the door (even if you feel you 'are in the right'), you must follow the correct procedure or youre in hot water.

221B

221B wrote: »

I've proven time and again to be a trustworthy employee, I 100% f'ed up and i'm not denying it, I'd be pissed too if I was her but she knows I've never done something like this before because she checks the print logs. (I also exclusively design book covers for my other clients so I wouldn't have needed to print anything for them.)

Yet in this instance you proved to your boss that you’re prepared to take what is hers, use what is hers, give it to your sister, fail to say anything and then look for an angle you can use against the person you’ve shown cannot trust you.

I don’t think you’ll ever do the same again but it’s downright foolish to think you have given your boss any option on how she must act. You stole from her and got fired. It’s all on you. Learn from it and get on with your life.

Fann Linn

Jack Moore wrote: »

Link please

Im on my phone however just google: Unfair dismissal, sex case ireland. And its the first result.