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Irish Rail Drivers want Hours Cut

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    #32
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,990 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Appears a work to rule instead of strike.....

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-rail-passengers-facing-cancellations-as-unions-plan-worktorule-action-34922587.html


    wonder how they will go about that, aren't work to rules not a legal gray area?

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #33
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    end of the road wrote: »
    aren't work to rules not a legal gray area?

    Only if there was a dispute involving implied terms of a contract vs specified terms in a contract. Very rare for such a dispute to happen though.


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    #34
    Vic_08
    Registered Users Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    end of the road wrote: »
    wonder how they will go about that, aren't work to rules not a legal gray area?

    No. Picking parts of your job to not do such as bus drivers refusing to take fares is a breach of contract, what they are proposing such as rest day bans, covering other depots shortages and other grades duties is outside their contracted job so voluntary and can be withdrawn.


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    #35
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Appears a work to rule instead of strike.....

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-rail-passengers-facing-cancellations-as-unions-plan-worktorule-action-34922587.html

    Watch what happens when the drivers withdraw their rest day cover. I've heard some places like connolly are run on overtime. Theres alot of it going around in some parts due to the severe gutting of staff levels in the last 5 years. They go work to rule you could see serious disruption if not outright cancellation of services at random notice which would show you how many holes in the staffing levels there. Would possibly be as disruptive as a strike but without going on one.

    Its ironic the management go on the media a few months ago saying the 10min service etc is down to union intransigence when alot of these problems have built up because of managements belligerence and its reaching spillover point.


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    #36
    kingshankly
    Registered Users Posts: 7,542 ✭✭✭kingshankly


    There is easily 200 trains worked a week by overtime by Connolly Huston and Drogheda drivers and probably double that at the moment in holiday season


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    #37
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    With dublin bus now voting to strike over their own terms and conditions this could be paticularly messy for people come september. Possibilty of both bus and rail dispute occuring at the same time which would cause mayhem in dublin.


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    #38
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,672 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Infini2 wrote: »
    With dublin bus now voting to strike over their own terms and conditions this could be paticularly messy for people come september. Possibilty of both bus and rail dispute occuring at the same time which would cause mayhem in dublin.

    I wouldn't expect them to be together, the unions are to clever for that.

    Wouldn't expect DB to come to strike IMO, would image they will compromise easier than IE and unions.
    There is easily 200 trains worked a week by overtime by Connolly Huston and Drogheda drivers and probably double that at the moment in holiday season

    What incentive do drivers get for workings these now or previously. If it's that high why are they working them. Surly it's not to the benefit of the customer or company, if it is then fair play...


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    #39
    trellheim
    Registered Users Posts: 5,863 ✭✭✭trellheim


    With dublin bus now voting to strike over their own terms and conditions this could be paticularly messy
    are you back to "messy" again ... my mental name for you is Lionel with this sort of implicit bullcrap


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    #40
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    I wouldn't expect them to be together, the unions are to clever for that.

    Wouldn't expect DB to come to strike IMO, would image they will compromise easier than IE and unions.

    What incentive do drivers get for workings these now or previously. If it's that high why are they working them. Surly it's not to the benefit of the customer or company, if it is then fair play...

    In terms of the pay both companies had agreements for pay increases which were summarilly reneighed on by the companies. A 8% increase which is really only 2% after cutbacks and everything else was never gonna fly even before the luas factor.

    As for both companies ending up with industrial action its very possible and would be extremely effective if it gets to that point because it would nearly shut down Dublin for sure. Problems in both companies were left to fester for too long that its reached boiling point.

    As for the othertime sometimes its for the extra money or to cover to let someone have the day off. Regardless theres not enough staff and if theyre reliant on overtime like that people get burned out which is probably part of the reason theyre looking for shorter hours.


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    #41
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,672 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Infini2 wrote: »
    In terms of the pay both companies had agreements for pay increases which were summarilly reneighed on by the companies. A 8% increase which is really only 2% after cutbacks and everything else was never gonna fly even before the luas factor.

    As for both companies ending up with industrial action its very possible and would be extremely effective if it gets to that point because it would nearly shut down Dublin for sure. Problems in both companies were left to fester for too long that its reached boiling point.

    As for the othertime sometimes its for the extra money or to cover to let someone have the day off. Regardless theres not enough staff and if theyre reliant on overtime like that people get burned out which is probably part of the reason theyre looking for shorter hours.

    There is no pay dispute with Irish Rail as all staff accepted a deal which runs until October 2016 but you can be sure pay is playing a role in the current problems.

    It may be effective short term but with a minister in office who is no fan of CIE longer term it would be counter productive and I make off he wouldn't hesitate to for example to increase the tenders on DB routes and so on and turn the screws on parts of CIE.

    Then there is some wonderful lessons which TD have shown CIE in how to deal with disputes and while they wouldn't go as far I would't expect the soft approach which they have had up to now especially if both companies strike together.

    Breaking CIE's hold on public transport needs to happen.


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    #42
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,990 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    There is no pay dispute with Irish Rail as all staff accepted a deal which runs until October 2016 but you can be sure pay is playing a role in the current problems.

    It may be effective short term but with a minister in office who is no fan of CIE longer term it would be counter productive and I make off he wouldn't hesitate to for example to increase the tenders on DB routes and so on and turn the screws on parts of CIE.

    Then there is some wonderful lessons which TD have shown CIE in how to deal with disputes and while they wouldn't go as far I would't expect the soft approach which they have had up to now especially if both companies strike together.

    i see where you come from but remember the union have shown us with the luas dispute they have a lot of resolve and will continue regardless of the company pushing back. so ross may not be able to turn as many screws as he thinks, or at least it may not have the desired outcome he would like. the tendering of bus routes wouldn't stop strikes as we know but i guess if ross could convince the public otherwise and deal with the reality later he may do it. let's hope we don't find out anyway.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #43
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,672 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    end of the road wrote: »
    i see where you come from but remember the union have shown us with the luas dispute they have a lot of resolve and will continue regardless of the company pushing back. so ross may not be able to turn as many screws as he thinks, or at least it may not have the desired outcome he would like. the tendering of bus routes wouldn't stop strikes as we know but i guess if ross could convince the public otherwise and deal with the reality later he may do it. let's hope we don't find out anyway.

    Luas only got 2-3% above what management said from day 1.

    Its a case of when DB staff realise they are not getting a 30% rise it will end. I cant see any increase going above 15-16% whenever they talk next.


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    #44
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,990 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Luas only got 2-3% above what management said from day 1.

    Its a case of when DB staff realise they are not getting a 30% rise it will end. I cant see any increase going above 15-16% whenever they talk next.

    in fairness i should imagine dublin bus staff know well that they're will be no 30% rise. i reccan 16% at most might be about right myself.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #45
    up13
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10 ✭up13


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    I wouldn't expect them to be together, the unions are to clever for that.

    Wouldn't expect DB to come to strike IMO, would image they will compromise easier than IE and unions.

    You know nothing john snow!

    DB is a tinder box.
    Drivers are super pissed off at the treatment of the last few years.
    Drivers kept their end of previous agreements, DB did not.
    Drivers owed 6% rise under previous agreements dating back to 2008 and offered a poxy 8.25% by company, so in effect a a 2.25% rise over the next 3/4 years.

    DB much greater chance of all out strike than DART, consequences of DB strike much more disruptive than DART strike.

    1, expect work to rule, Chaos will ensue, public have no idea how much DB drivers do above and beyond what is required.
    2, work to rule will mean DB get fined for non running of services, drivers will still get paid, how long can DB pay fines before it is cost effective to give drivers the pay rise that want?
    3, 30% pay rise is realistic, the Government just raised the Rent allowance in Dublin by 28%, so that admit the cost of living in Dublin have significantly risen.
    4, Bus drivers and Tram drivers are paid the same all over Europe, give take a few %.
    5, this is the time of waiting, no point is doing anything now, wait until schools are back for max effect. Expect travel chaos in September, and that will be from a work to rule, a all out strike will be the ace in the hole for the drivers to play.


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    #46
    up13
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10 ✭up13


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »

    It may be effective short term but with a minister in office who is no fan of CIE longer term it would be counter productive and I make off he wouldn't hesitate to for example to increase the tenders on DB routes and so on and turn the screws on parts of CIE.

    TUPE is dead as far as DB is concerned, increased tenders as much as he likes, they will then have many DB staff with no routes to work sitting in Depots collecting a wage.


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    #47
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    Slight update but indo reporting the strike ballots being suspended while both unions and the company head to the WRC again for 3 days.


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    #48
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,672 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    So looks like strike is off after unions/IE agreed to work towards a cut in hours to 39 provided a new roster system and increased weekend cover is available.

    The pension cost could be 6 million as they are getting an increased hourly rate but separate CIE talks happening on that. Unions say it was wrestled from our control.


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