Irish Rail Drivers want Hours Cut

Jamie2k9

Unions at Irish Rail have threatened industrial action if the state-owned company refuses to cut their working week from up to 43 hours to 35. The National Bus and Railworkers Union and SIPTU will seek a 35-hour week for the company’s 540 drivers at three days of talks that begin at the Workplace Relations Commission tomorrow.

Link for full article:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-rail-workers-threaten-industrial-action-if-working-hours-are-not-cut-34914720.html

savagethegoat

seems reasonable to me.

the groutch

is that keeping the same salary? the article isn't very clear?

Jamie2k9

the groutch wrote: »

is that keeping the same salary? the article isn't very clear?

What do you think, they are in line for restoration of some pay cuts and will want a bit more.

seems reasonable to me.

Note it's "up" to 45 hours, one would expect a fraction of them do the max work.
_______

Interested to know what benefits IE get from the report as the union comment saying drivers would have to move on issues if they want to achieve it.

I would have no problem with extra pay, reduced hours once they do more and are bit flexible when they need to be. Hopefully there won't be any action and they are reasonable with demands.

I personally would not expect 35 hour week right away but perhaps under 40 to start with.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

What do you think, they are in line for restoration of some pay cuts and will want a bit more.



Note it's "up" to 45 hours, one would expect a fraction of them do the max work.
_______

Interested to know what benefits IE get from the report as the union comment saying drivers would have to move on issues if they want to achieve it.

I would have no problem with extra pay, reduced hours once they do more and are bit flexible when they need to be. Hopefully there won't be any action and they are reasonable with demands.

I personally would not expect 35 hour week right away but perhaps under 40 to start with.

i think the outcome will be slightly reduced hours but no extra pay on top of the looked for restoration. time will tell though.

savagethegoat

I started work in 1973 and did 35 hours way back then. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

kingshankly

im a driver and have a good few weeks on the roster that are 45 hours 5x9

Jamie2k9

kingshankly wrote: »

im a driver and have a good few weeks on the roster that are 45 hours 5x9

So you would prefer a set weekly 35 (for example) instead of varied amounts week over week.

Any idea if the cuts will balance themselves out over a year with a set weekly roster than varied one and are the max hours more less from all the pay/productivity deals since 2008 or were they always there.

i think the outcome will be slightly reduced hours but no extra pay on top of the looked for restoration. time will tell though.

Problem is IE will want something in return for that to work out.

magicbastarder

kingshankly wrote: »

im a driver and have a good few weeks on the roster that are 45 hours 5x9

do you get any lunchbreaks? just curious as to whether you mean (as an example) 9am to 6pm with or without breaks.

kingshankly

magicbastarder wrote: »

do you get any lunchbreaks? just curious as to whether you mean (as an example) 9am to 6pm with or without breaks.

There are breaks factored in but say you had a 50 min break in Belfast before you turn round say your late there goes your break

Jamie2k9

kingshankly wrote: »

There are breaks factored in but say you had a 50 min break in Belfast before you turn round say your late there goes your break

But to be fair unless it's mechanical issues with the train, surly you are just sitting waiting like passengers for whatever issues to be resolved.

Edit perhaps Belfast route would be a poor representation of the network in terms of breaks as it's issue to issue all the time.

liger

kingshankly wrote: »

There are breaks factored in but say you had a 50 min break in Belfast before you turn round say your late there goes your break

Do you get compensated at ot rates when that happens? Would IE drivers be expected to do a lot of ot?

newacc2015

savagethegoat wrote: »

I started work in 1973 and did 35 hours way back then. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

The norm in the private sector is now 37.5 hours minimum. If you go to most medium - large sized businesses now, the hours are 37.5 hours a week. Very few jobs are now 35 hours a week.

Jamie2k9

Off to a great start :rolleyes:

Iarnród Éireann has accused train driver unions of an an organised withdrawal of co-operation with the training of new drivers, which is damaging its financial position.

The accusation is contained in a statement issued after talks at the Workplace Relations Commission today aimed at resolving a long-running dispute over working hours and payments for productivity.

Iarnród Éireann says nine DART trainees have been prevented from completing their training, and that this has affected the company's ability to respond to the future needs of customers.

National Bus and Rail Union General Secretary Dermot O'Leary accused the company of "cherry-picking" from the agreed agenda for the WRC talks.

He said nothing would be agreed until everything was agreed - including the issue of driver training.

In a statement, the NBRU and SIPTU said "Irish Rail has now decided to set it's face against the preeminent Industrial Relations institution of the State by thumbing its nose at the recommended course of action to engage on all of the disputed issues"

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0727/805262-iarnrod-eireann-irish-rail/

Notice the union have not denied the accusation..

liger

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Off to a great start :rolleyes:





http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0727/805262-iarnrod-eireann-irish-rail/

Notice the union have not denied the accusation..

How can you deny the fact that 9 people are sitting in a depot somewhere getting paid to do nothing because they can't complete their training.

Question is, why are IE taking on 16 more if they haven't got it sorted out yet.

lawlolawl

newacc2015 wrote: »

The norm in the private sector is now 37.5 hours minimum. If you go to most medium - large sized businesses now, the hours are 37.5 hours a week. Very few jobs are now 35 hours a week.

Do they only work 4 days a week or something?

I'm ground staff in IE and my minimum week is 5x9hrs with every third week being 4x9hrs with a 12hr day as well.

The national average is something like 35.7hrs per week. I'd love that, it'd be like being part time.

magicbastarder

lawlolawl wrote: »

I'm ground staff in IE and my minimum week is 5x9hrs

what's you normal start and finish time so?
37.5 hours is considered a normal office week - 9 to 5:30, with an hour for lunch.

Captain Chaos

magicbastarder wrote: »

what's you normal start and finish time so?
37.5 hours is considered a normal office week - 9 to 5:30, with an hour for lunch.

I'm in the private sector in an office job. I work a 39 hr week as standard. 8am - 4pm and 8am - 3pm on Fridays with one 15min break a day. Our guys in the field work the same hours and over time as required.

lawlolawl

magicbastarder wrote: »

what's you normal start and finish time so?
37.5 hours is considered a normal office week - 9 to 5:30, with an hour for lunch.

6am to 3pm or 12pm to 9pm.

The 12hr shift is 9 to 9.

No built in break/lunch so you just take it when it gets quite.

Infini

liger wrote: »

How can you deny the fact that 9 people are sitting in a depot somewhere getting paid to do nothing because they can't complete their training.

Question is, why are IE taking on 16 more if they haven't got it sorted out yet.

:pac:One of the things I heard about the new drivers us that they were brought in on lower standards than yhe existing drivers. Several were from dublin bus.

The other thing was due to the way some managers have been treating staff in the past the drivers were refusing to go out with the new ones is because if the new drivers pulled a SPAD then the senior driver got penalised for it on their record. If they get too many marks theyre taken down. Thats something the company wont mention.

Jamie2k9

Infini2 wrote: »

:pac:One of the things I heard about the new drivers us that they were brought in on lower standards than yhe existing drivers. Several were from dublin bus.

The other thing was due to the way some managers have been treating staff in the past the drivers were refusing to go out with the new ones is because if the new drivers pulled a SPAD then the senior driver got penalised for it on their record. If they get too many marks theyre taken down. Thats something the company wont mention.

We would of heard about it if they were on lower standards, drivers have set grades. Do you think unions would keep such a thing to themselves.

The real issue here is the changes to rosters hence why there is no 10 min DART and drivers won't train to delay it. You may have a point about SPADS's however rosters are the root issue and perhaps a little more driving within existing hours. A few months ago they say rosters and pay were the issues.

IR have the power to take the nuclear option here and force the changes as they are within the terms but they have not.

6am to 3pm or 12pm to 9pm.

The 12hr shift is 9 to 9.

No built in break/lunch so you just take it when it gets quite.

Your hardly rushed off your feet a lot of the time, perhaps if your in a central station and have a lot of passenger assistance to/from trains it may be difficult but if your in a standard station you probally have time for a good break.

Jamie2k9

Rail passengers face the prospect of transport disruption next month after Iarnród Éireann unions decided to ballot drivers for industrial action.

This follows the breakdown of talks with the company at the Workplace Relations Commission aimed at resolving a long-running dispute over payment for productivity and a shorter working week.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0728/805541-iarnrod-eireann-unions/

Hilly Bill

Captain Chaos wrote: »

I'm in the private sector in an office job. I work a 39 hr week as standard. 8am - 4pm and 8am - 3pm on Fridays with one 15min break a day. Our guys in the field work the same hours and over time as required.

One 15 min break a day? You are entitled to more of a break than that.

n97 mini

Captain Chaos wrote: »

I'm in the private sector in an office job. I work a 39 hr week as standard. 8am - 4pm and 8am - 3pm on Fridays with one 15min break a day. Our guys in the field work the same hours and over time as required.

Same here. In my industry a "40" hour week is standard (it's really 39) in the private sector. I worked in the public sector for a time and it was 33¼ hours there.

Losty Dublin

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Your hardly rushed off your feet a lot of the time, perhaps if your in a central station and have a lot of passenger assistance to/from trains it may be difficult but if your in a standard station you probally have time for a good break.

Said without you even knowing what sort of work he does

Jamie2k9

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Said without you even knowing what sort of work he does

Sorry I miss read it as I'm ground station, yes ground is much brander......but if IE were breaking any laws unions would let use know about the poor working conditions.

If they are not happy why not raise it with them and demand breaks?

kingshankly

liger wrote: »

Do you get compensated at ot rates when that happens? Would IE drivers be expected to do a lot of ot?

Not at all no compensation you are asked to work overtime every week but out overtime is flat rate even on a Sunday or bank holiday

foggy_lad

kingshankly wrote: »

Not at all no compensation you are asked to work overtime every week but out overtime is flat rate even on a Sunday or bank holiday

Do train drivers get €65 an hour for driving late night trains for events and Christmas nitelink darts like Luas drivers get?

Infini

foggy_lad wrote: »

Do train drivers get €65 an hour for driving late night trains for events and Christmas nitelink darts like Luas drivers get?

Drivers are under no obligation to drive outside their contracted hours so anything outside of that is up to the company and drivers to sort out. Dont know what they got the last time for it but it would only be a handful of drivers doing the xmas darts.

As for the impending vote for strike I'm honestly not suprised. You can be critical of the drivers if you like but management are just as bad hell some of them dont even care bout the customers theyre that bad. These issues have been building up for ages so no suprise its beginning to boil over.

foggy_lad

Infini2 wrote: »

Drivers are under no obligation to drive outside their contracted hours so anything outside of that is up to the company and drivers to sort out. Dont know what they got the last time for it but it would only be a handful of drivers doing the xmas darts.

As for the impending vote for strike I'm honestly not suprised. You can be critical of the drivers if you like but management are just as bad hell some of them dont even care bout the customers theyre that bad. These issues have been building up for ages so no suprise its beginning to boil over.

Not being critical of train and dart drivers at all(for once) as they have a far more difficult and sometimes more harrowing job than Luas drivers and they should be paid accordingly, I would be very critical of Luas drivers pay for such late night services though and also their general rates of pay. They do not deserve parity with train drivers.

Jamie2k9

Appears a work to rule instead of strike.....

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-rail-passengers-facing-cancellations-as-unions-plan-worktorule-action-34922587.html

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Appears a work to rule instead of strike.....

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-rail-passengers-facing-cancellations-as-unions-plan-worktorule-action-34922587.html

wonder how they will go about that, aren't work to rules not a legal gray area?

GM228

end of the road wrote: »

aren't work to rules not a legal gray area?

Only if there was a dispute involving implied terms of a contract vs specified terms in a contract. Very rare for such a dispute to happen though.

Vic_08

end of the road wrote: »

wonder how they will go about that, aren't work to rules not a legal gray area?

No. Picking parts of your job to not do such as bus drivers refusing to take fares is a breach of contract, what they are proposing such as rest day bans, covering other depots shortages and other grades duties is outside their contracted job so voluntary and can be withdrawn.

Infini

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Appears a work to rule instead of strike.....

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-rail-passengers-facing-cancellations-as-unions-plan-worktorule-action-34922587.html

Watch what happens when the drivers withdraw their rest day cover. I've heard some places like connolly are run on overtime. Theres alot of it going around in some parts due to the severe gutting of staff levels in the last 5 years. They go work to rule you could see serious disruption if not outright cancellation of services at random notice which would show you how many holes in the staffing levels there. Would possibly be as disruptive as a strike but without going on one.

Its ironic the management go on the media a few months ago saying the 10min service etc is down to union intransigence when alot of these problems have built up because of managements belligerence and its reaching spillover point.

kingshankly

There is easily 200 trains worked a week by overtime by Connolly Huston and Drogheda drivers and probably double that at the moment in holiday season

Infini

With dublin bus now voting to strike over their own terms and conditions this could be paticularly messy for people come september. Possibilty of both bus and rail dispute occuring at the same time which would cause mayhem in dublin.

Jamie2k9

Infini2 wrote: »

With dublin bus now voting to strike over their own terms and conditions this could be paticularly messy for people come september. Possibilty of both bus and rail dispute occuring at the same time which would cause mayhem in dublin.

I wouldn't expect them to be together, the unions are to clever for that.

Wouldn't expect DB to come to strike IMO, would image they will compromise easier than IE and unions.

There is easily 200 trains worked a week by overtime by Connolly Huston and Drogheda drivers and probably double that at the moment in holiday season

What incentive do drivers get for workings these now or previously. If it's that high why are they working them. Surly it's not to the benefit of the customer or company, if it is then fair play...

trellheim

With dublin bus now voting to strike over their own terms and conditions this could be paticularly messy

are you back to "messy" again ... my mental name for you is Lionel with this sort of implicit bullcrap

Infini

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I wouldn't expect them to be together, the unions are to clever for that.

Wouldn't expect DB to come to strike IMO, would image they will compromise easier than IE and unions.

What incentive do drivers get for workings these now or previously. If it's that high why are they working them. Surly it's not to the benefit of the customer or company, if it is then fair play...

In terms of the pay both companies had agreements for pay increases which were summarilly reneighed on by the companies. A 8% increase which is really only 2% after cutbacks and everything else was never gonna fly even before the luas factor.

As for both companies ending up with industrial action its very possible and would be extremely effective if it gets to that point because it would nearly shut down Dublin for sure. Problems in both companies were left to fester for too long that its reached boiling point.

As for the othertime sometimes its for the extra money or to cover to let someone have the day off. Regardless theres not enough staff and if theyre reliant on overtime like that people get burned out which is probably part of the reason theyre looking for shorter hours.

Jamie2k9

Infini2 wrote: »

In terms of the pay both companies had agreements for pay increases which were summarilly reneighed on by the companies. A 8% increase which is really only 2% after cutbacks and everything else was never gonna fly even before the luas factor.

As for both companies ending up with industrial action its very possible and would be extremely effective if it gets to that point because it would nearly shut down Dublin for sure. Problems in both companies were left to fester for too long that its reached boiling point.

As for the othertime sometimes its for the extra money or to cover to let someone have the day off. Regardless theres not enough staff and if theyre reliant on overtime like that people get burned out which is probably part of the reason theyre looking for shorter hours.

There is no pay dispute with Irish Rail as all staff accepted a deal which runs until October 2016 but you can be sure pay is playing a role in the current problems.

It may be effective short term but with a minister in office who is no fan of CIE longer term it would be counter productive and I make off he wouldn't hesitate to for example to increase the tenders on DB routes and so on and turn the screws on parts of CIE.

Then there is some wonderful lessons which TD have shown CIE in how to deal with disputes and while they wouldn't go as far I would't expect the soft approach which they have had up to now especially if both companies strike together.

Breaking CIE's hold on public transport needs to happen.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

There is no pay dispute with Irish Rail as all staff accepted a deal which runs until October 2016 but you can be sure pay is playing a role in the current problems.

It may be effective short term but with a minister in office who is no fan of CIE longer term it would be counter productive and I make off he wouldn't hesitate to for example to increase the tenders on DB routes and so on and turn the screws on parts of CIE.

Then there is some wonderful lessons which TD have shown CIE in how to deal with disputes and while they wouldn't go as far I would't expect the soft approach which they have had up to now especially if both companies strike together.

i see where you come from but remember the union have shown us with the luas dispute they have a lot of resolve and will continue regardless of the company pushing back. so ross may not be able to turn as many screws as he thinks, or at least it may not have the desired outcome he would like. the tendering of bus routes wouldn't stop strikes as we know but i guess if ross could convince the public otherwise and deal with the reality later he may do it. let's hope we don't find out anyway.

Jamie2k9

end of the road wrote: »

i see where you come from but remember the union have shown us with the luas dispute they have a lot of resolve and will continue regardless of the company pushing back. so ross may not be able to turn as many screws as he thinks, or at least it may not have the desired outcome he would like. the tendering of bus routes wouldn't stop strikes as we know but i guess if ross could convince the public otherwise and deal with the reality later he may do it. let's hope we don't find out anyway.

Luas only got 2-3% above what management said from day 1.

Its a case of when DB staff realise they are not getting a 30% rise it will end. I cant see any increase going above 15-16% whenever they talk next.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Luas only got 2-3% above what management said from day 1.

Its a case of when DB staff realise they are not getting a 30% rise it will end. I cant see any increase going above 15-16% whenever they talk next.

in fairness i should imagine dublin bus staff know well that they're will be no 30% rise. i reccan 16% at most might be about right myself.

up13

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I wouldn't expect them to be together, the unions are to clever for that.

Wouldn't expect DB to come to strike IMO, would image they will compromise easier than IE and unions.

You know nothing john snow!

DB is a tinder box.
Drivers are super pissed off at the treatment of the last few years.
Drivers kept their end of previous agreements, DB did not.
Drivers owed 6% rise under previous agreements dating back to 2008 and offered a poxy 8.25% by company, so in effect a a 2.25% rise over the next 3/4 years.

DB much greater chance of all out strike than DART, consequences of DB strike much more disruptive than DART strike.

1, expect work to rule, Chaos will ensue, public have no idea how much DB drivers do above and beyond what is required.
2, work to rule will mean DB get fined for non running of services, drivers will still get paid, how long can DB pay fines before it is cost effective to give drivers the pay rise that want?
3, 30% pay rise is realistic, the Government just raised the Rent allowance in Dublin by 28%, so that admit the cost of living in Dublin have significantly risen.
4, Bus drivers and Tram drivers are paid the same all over Europe, give take a few %.
5, this is the time of waiting, no point is doing anything now, wait until schools are back for max effect. Expect travel chaos in September, and that will be from a work to rule, a all out strike will be the ace in the hole for the drivers to play.

up13

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

It may be effective short term but with a minister in office who is no fan of CIE longer term it would be counter productive and I make off he wouldn't hesitate to for example to increase the tenders on DB routes and so on and turn the screws on parts of CIE.

TUPE is dead as far as DB is concerned, increased tenders as much as he likes, they will then have many DB staff with no routes to work sitting in Depots collecting a wage.

Infini

Slight update but indo reporting the strike ballots being suspended while both unions and the company head to the WRC again for 3 days.

Jamie2k9

So looks like strike is off after unions/IE agreed to work towards a cut in hours to 39 provided a new roster system and increased weekend cover is available.

The pension cost could be 6 million as they are getting an increased hourly rate but separate CIE talks happening on that. Unions say it was wrestled from our control.