M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Chris_5339762 · 24-01-2021 1:21pm

I would say "quite likely" and that the final route will be similar to the 2010 version. It'll use the south "half" of the Croom bypass and then head north slightly offline from there before hitting the current M20.

Isambard · 24-01-2021 1:46pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I would say "quite likely" and that the final route will be similar to the 2010 version. It'll use the south "half" of the Croom bypass and then head north slightly offline from there before hitting the current M20.

that's how I see it, one junction further west than the current N20 junction , leaving the N20 (re-designated as Rxxx) to run into Croom village and out again to access the current road, turning the clock back pretty much on that route.

PKB1 · 24-01-2021 7:31pm

Isambard wrote: »

that's how I see it, one junction further west than the current N20 junction , leaving the N20 (re-designated as Rxxx) to run into Croom village and out again to access the current road, turning the clock back pretty much on that route.

Does anyone know if the previous planning submission stated that using the current Croom bypass would save a lot of expense versus going off line?

pajoguy · 24-01-2021 7:48pm

PKB1 wrote: »

Does anyone know if the previous planning submission stated that using the current Croom bypass would save a lot of expense versus going off line?

The last proposal using the existing bypass meant new roads seperate to that would have to be built to serve the croom junction that was supposed to double up to serve the southern bypass of Adare. I doubt much money would have been saved.

Pete_Cavan · 24-01-2021 8:17pm

It would be mad not to incorporate the Croom bypass into the new road. There are only two roads crossing it and but are grade separated, this makes it ideal for the new road but would serve no real purpose as an R road as it would do very little to distribute traffic.

The bypass should be upgraded, the existing junction closed (or off ramps only retained) and a new motorway GSJ built further north and a new link road on the northern side of the town.

PKB1 · 25-01-2021 1:10am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

It would be mad not to incorporate the Croom bypass into the new road. There are only two roads crossing it and but are grade separated, this makes it ideal for the new road but would serve no real purpose as an R road as it would do very little to distribute traffic.

The bypass should be upgraded, the existing junction closed (or off ramps only retained) and a new motorway GSJ built further north and a new link road on the northern side of the town.

I think last time they planned an R road parallel to the motorway on the Croom bypass. Would that still be on the cards this time? Any idea?

Isambard · 25-01-2021 10:33am

PKB1 wrote: »

I think last time they planned an R road parallel to the motorway on the Croom bypass. Would that still be on the cards this time? Any idea?

the old road North of Croom* is a good straight road, I suppose it depends how willing they are to allow local traffic to run via the double bend that is Croom Bridge. From the Bridge south , the old road is closed off but it looks like it could be re-opened to link to the existing road south of Croom.

*the bypass proper is south of the junction of this road with the N20, the section north of that was a very early widening, 1980s

PKB1 · 25-01-2021 3:12pm

Isambard wrote: »

the old road North of Croom* is a good straight road, I suppose it depends how willing they are to allow local traffic to run via the double bend that is Croom Bridge. From the Bridge south , the old road is closed off but it looks like it could be re-opened to link to the existing road south of Croom.

*the bypass proper is south of the junction of this road with the N20, the section north of that was a very early widening, 1980s

Thanks for that. I don’t know if they would revert to putting local traffic through Croom. Saying that though nothing would surprise me.

marno21 · 25-01-2021 4:26pm

Here's what was planned in 2009, with some cavaets:

1. The entire length of grade separated Croom bypass reused (the Croom bypass from the R516 junction (as is now) to Anhid Cross is NOT grade separated).
2. A new Croom interchange where the Croom BP meets the old N20 north of Croom (including N21 Adare bypass)
3. An new link road running beside the Croom bypass from the Adare Road to the existing R516 junction which would be shut.
4. The existing N20 would be realigned to meet the R516 + new link rad at the old Croom junction and would run broadly along the existing N20 corridor south of the R516 junction, with the M20 running east along this corridor and later crossing the old N20 at Anhid Cross. The exact detail of this isn't there because of the corridor widths.

Based on the following, it's important to consider the following for 2021:

1. No Adare bypass this time.
2. Different layout of the M20/M21 junction a few km to the north
3. Where is the Croom junction best placed this time?
4. Will the link road (also known as the Croom Western Distributor Route) be included as before along the same layout? Lots of routes like this planned back in the day to open up land for development but this isn't as common anymore

PKB1 · 25-01-2021 8:52pm

marno21 wrote: »

Here's what was planned in 2009, with some cavaets:

1. The entire length of grade separated Croom bypass reused (the Croom bypass from the R516 junction (as is now) to Anhid Cross is NOT grade separated).
2. A new Croom interchange where the Croom BP meets the old N20 north of Croom (including N21 Adare bypass)
3. An new link road running beside the Croom bypass from the Adare Road to the existing R516 junction which would be shut.
4. The existing N20 would be realigned to meet the R516 + new link rad at the old Croom junction and would run broadly along the existing N20 corridor south of the R516 junction, with the M20 running east along this corridor and later crossing the old N20 at Anhid Cross. The exact detail of this isn't there because of the corridor widths.

Based on the following, it's important to consider the following for 2021:

1. No Adare bypass this time.
2. Different layout of the M20/M21 junction a few km to the north
3. Where is the Croom junction best placed this time?
4. Will the link road (also known as the Croom Western Distributor Route) be included as before along the same layout? Lots of routes like this planned back in the day to open up land for development but this isn't as common anymore

Thanks for that. As you point out the lack of Adare bypass could probably change the whole layout.

KrisW1001 · 26-01-2021 11:15am

I think the best they could do would be to keep the alignment of the Croom bypass, but the junctions don't make as much sense anymore once the Adare Bypass has been re-routed elsewhere.

The span of the bridge at the Ballingarry junction doesn't seem wide enough to accommodate even a 2+2 road beneath, so it would have to be removed or replaced for a motorway - I think it's the wrong place to put a motorway junction for Croom, as it would drive traffic for points East of Croom right through the centre of the village again, and we're back to the bad old days of the 1990s.

I'd make that a simple overbridge (remove the slip-roads), and have one junction off M20, roughly where the Ballyourgan overbridge is, to serve Croom. (i.e., move "Croom Junction" closer to Croom, and delete the other junctions.)

Pete_Cavan · 26-01-2021 12:27pm

I would have thought building a new junction south of the river with a new link road extending east, crossing the river and tying into the new road already developing on the eastern side of the town. That allows traffic to move around the town without actually having to go through it. As part of widening to motorway, provide a new parallel road on the western side to link back into the existing roads at the bridge and close the existing junction.

KrisW1001 · 26-01-2021 12:53pm

I'd prefer to the north of the river simply to avoid the cost of another bridge for that link-road.

The plan Marno posted does contain the parallel road you describe - that should be kept. Actually, now I look closer at it, it's obvious that the 2009 plan was to do pretty much what I suggested with the current Croom junction: on the plan, that bridge would not have been connected to the motorway - it was kept simply to allow the various parallel access roads to cross the main line of the motorway.

Pete_Cavan · 26-01-2021 1:36pm

KrisW1001 wrote: »

I'd prefer to the north of the river simply to avoid the cost of another bridge for that link-road.

The plan Marno posted does contain the parallel road you describe - that should be kept. Actually, now I look closer at it, it's obvious that the 2009 plan was to do pretty much what I suggested with the current Croom junction: on the plan, that bridge would not have been connected to the motorway - it was kept simply to allow the various parallel access roads to cross the main line of the motorway.

If the junction is north of the bridge, you probably still require a bridge over the river for a parallel road plus the parallel road is then longer. I don't see the logic in having the junction 2km from the town when it could be <1km from it.

betistuc · 26-01-2021 3:15pm

What are the chances of ALL road construction being suspended while the Government waits to see if the EU are going to insist on us driving on the right here. Topic was discussed on RTE Drivetime yesterday. Malta and Cyprus could also be forced as well. Just a thought!

Stark · 26-01-2021 3:20pm

betistuc wrote: »

What are the chances of ALL road construction being suspended while the Government waits to see if the EU are going to insist on us driving on the right here. Topic was discussed on RTE Drivetime yesterday. Malta and Cyprus could also be forced as well. Just a thought!

Wtf are you on about.

Bass Reeves · 26-01-2021 3:21pm

Kite flying not logistically possible and even if it happened it would have an 6-10+ year lead in time

betistuc · 26-01-2021 3:34pm

Stark wrote: »

Wtf are you on about.

Do you have trouble reading. I thought it was pretty clear

26-01-2021 3:38pm

betistuc wrote: »

Do you have trouble reading. I thought it was pretty clear

It is clear, but it’s complete ballcocks

Cookiemunster · 26-01-2021 3:48pm

Jaysus, this is like the nonsense that the English anti EU press used to come out with. Did this story originate in the Irish Daily Mail by any chance?

KrisW1001 · 26-01-2021 3:53pm

betistuc wrote: »

What are the chances of ALL road construction being suspended while the Government waits to see if the EU are going to insist on us driving on the right here. Topic was discussed on RTE Drivetime yesterday. Malta and Cyprus could also be forced as well. Just a thought!

Here's another thought: maybe you could open a new thread, and call it "Chances of Ireland driving on the right?" or something, so that people won't accidentally click on it if they want to read about how the M20 is progressing...

betistuc · 26-01-2021 5:07pm

KrisW1001 wrote: »

Here's another thought: maybe you could open a new thread, and call it "Chances of Ireland driving on the right?" or something, so that people won't accidentally click on it if they want to read about how the M20 is progressing...

Very hostile on this thread. Fair enough, I'll leave you all to your irrelevant speculation re M20 . Just remember where you heard it when it happens.

JCX BXC · 26-01-2021 5:13pm

betistuc wrote: »

Very hostile on this thread. Fair enough, I'll leave you all to your irrelevant speculation re M20 . Just remember where you heard it when it happens.

That's more conspiracy theoriest than anything else!

PKB1 · 26-01-2021 5:13pm

KrisW1001 wrote: »

I think the best they could do would be to keep the alignment of the Croom bypass, but the junctions don't make as much sense anymore once the Adare Bypass has been re-routed elsewhere.

The span of the bridge at the Ballingarry junction doesn't seem wide enough to accommodate even a 2+2 road beneath, so it would have to be removed or replaced for a motorway - I think it's the wrong place to put a motorway junction for Croom, as it would drive traffic for points East of Croom right through the centre of the village again, and we're back to the bad old days of the 1990s.

I'd make that a simple overbridge (remove the slip-roads), and have one junction off M20, roughly where the Ballyourgan overbridge is, to serve Croom. (i.e., move "Croom Junction" closer to Croom, and delete the other junctions.)

Kris, I agree that Ballourgan is the place to put the junction and keep a parallel local road to Anhid cross where the M20 would verge off line.

Sam Russell · 26-01-2021 8:39pm

Mod: Driving on the left is here for ever. The cost of the changeover would be astronomical. There are no plans to change. It is off topic for this thread.

Thank you.

Cork Trucker · 27-01-2021 11:42am

From today’s echo

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/arid-40214696.html

hans aus dtschl · 27-01-2021 12:20pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

From today’s echo

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/arid-40214696.html

Dual Carriageway from Blarney to Mallow?
I don't like that very much tbh. Motorway plus dedicated secondary route for slow moving traffic would be my preference.

Edit: reading the whole article, the general gist is basically "leave the road alone" unfortunately.

Cork Trucker · 27-01-2021 12:33pm

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Dual Carriageway from Blarney to Mallow?
I don't like that very much tbh. Motorway plus dedicated secondary route for slow moving traffic would be my preference.

Edit: reading the whole article, the general gist is basically "leave the road alone" unfortunately.

All I’m getting from 90% of the article is NIMBYism

marno21 · 27-01-2021 12:54pm

I would just ignore that article if I were you. It’s all NIMBYism complete with:

A lack of understanding of the differences between road types among non road engineers (which could be resolved by explaining this stuff)
The same concept from the M28 that “motorways” carry more traffic than “dual carriageways”
A lack of understanding that south of Rathduff what’s planned is an upgrade of the N20, not a 300m wide strip of tarmac carrying all and sundry in its path

That Councillor from Charleville has always been pro relief road for Charleville rather than M20, nothing new there.

Cork Trucker · 27-01-2021 12:59pm

Take a look at the comments on the echo Facebook page, comments are being deleted as well by the looks of it

KrisW1001 · 27-01-2021 1:21pm

I think the Charleville councillor has seen so many false dawns on N20, that he's given up on the idea, and is pushing for a lesser, more achievable goal. It's understandable.

Actually, Charleville will probably still need a relief road, even when M20 is completed: even with Cork-Limerick long-distance traffic removed, there'll still be far too much local traffic routed through the middle of the town.

Mc Love · 30-01-2021 11:41pm

Whats the story with the M20 going through Crecora? Even Niall Collins is against the motorway now for some reason. Crecora is nowhere near the M20/Cork Road so I dont know where people are getting the idea that it will be going through Crecora?

AugustusMinimus · 31-01-2021 12:18pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Take a look at the comments on the echo Facebook page, comments are being deleted as well by the looks of it

The Echo is an absolute rag and it’s clear that some articles have a clear intention.

The constantly delete unwanted comments on their Facebook page too.

Plain dc is never going to be built for Blarney - Mallow. Makes no sense at all.

Cork Trucker · 31-01-2021 12:49pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

The Echo is an absolute rag and it’s clear that some articles have a clear intention.

The constantly delete unwanted comments on their Facebook page too.

Plain dc is never going to be built for Blarney - Mallow. Makes no sense at all.

100% agree with you. These people are just hoping that it will be shelved again

Limerick74 · 31-01-2021 1:09pm

Mc Love wrote: »

Whats the story with the M20 going through Crecora? Even Niall Collins is against the motorway now for some reason. Crecora is nowhere near the M20/Cork Road so I dont know where people are getting the idea that it will be going through Crecora?

Two of the shortlisted options go near Crecora connecting into the existing M20 junctions at Patrickswell and Raheen. These options would reduce Cork Limerick journey times as more direct than existing N20 and give different junction options.

Bazzer007 · 01-02-2021 4:08pm

Newstalk aired a fairly one-sided discussion on the proposed routes last week. Most contributors were pro dual carriageway including Councillor Doyle from Charleville. The Navy route protesters were letting it known the route has no business going through their land/house. Those on the Amber route know the uncertainty if/when the motorway may be going through your land/house for over a decade is a lot worse than complaining about the lack of consultation. I think O'Donnell/Collins were both aggrieved that the proposed routes should all be fully costed before the consultation not just when the route is chosen. I imagine the outlay of actually costing all three routes would be prohibitive.

https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-lunchtime-live/plans-for-a-cork-limerick-motorway

Pete_Cavan · 01-02-2021 4:51pm

Bazzer007 wrote: »

I think O'Donnell/Collins were both aggrieved that the proposed routes should all be fully costed before the consultation not just when the route is chosen. I imagine the outlay of actually costing all three routes would be prohibitive.

In order to fully cost a route, you need to know exactly where it is going, what the terrain and geographical conditions are like on the actual 30-40m corridor on which it would be built, number of junctions and lengths of accompanyinglink roads, over/under bridges of existing roads and spans of same, ditto for river crossings, amount of property and buildings which would have to be CPOed and also accompanying works etc.

If you select the route, everyone would go mad that a route was selected without any consultation! Presumably they want these costings on a defined route on each of the corridor options, pissing off everyone in north Cork/south Limerick and killing the project before it starts. Every aspect of the cost estimate would undoubtedly change at that point, requiring entirely new estimates across the board.

Somebody needs to point out to those two geniuses that they are arguing that putting the cart before the horse is a good idea. A good slap wouldn't go amiss either.

Isambard · 01-02-2021 5:40pm

never mind the cost, we need the best route for the maximum number of people.

Limerick74 · 02-02-2021 12:15pm

N20 O’Rourkes Cross Oral Hearing being held remotely today. Was part of the previous M20 scheme in 2010.

Red Silurian · 02-02-2021 9:41pm

Limerick74 wrote: »

N20 O’Rourkes Cross Oral Hearing being held remotely today. Was part of the previous M20 scheme in 2010.

How did it go? What's the plan for the petrol station/bus stop?

Cork Trucker · 02-02-2021 10:27pm

colmtheperson wrote: »

How did it go? What's the plan for the petrol station/bus stop?

Wasn't a roundabout meant to go in there?

Cookiemunster · 02-02-2021 10:47pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Wasn't a roundabout meant to go in there?

Yeah its going to be a roundabout.
https://www.limerick.ie/council/services/roads-and-travel/road-improvements-major-schemes/n20-orourkes-cross

mydiscworld · 03-02-2021 3:04pm

So they are building the roundabout before the motorway?

That should delay traffic nicely on busy days...

serfboard · 03-02-2021 3:08pm

mydiscworld wrote: »

So they are building the roundabout before the motorway?

That should delay traffic nicely on busy days...

Normally I'd agree with you, but the roundabout needs to be built and they can't wait a decade or more for the road to be finished ...

marno21 · 05-02-2021 2:13am

https://corklimerick.ie/november-2020-public-consultation/

A large response to the public consultation. They predict the preferred option will be published in summer 2021.

serfboard · 05-02-2021 2:22pm

marno21 wrote: »

https://corklimerick.ie/november-2020-public-consultation/

A large response to the public consultation. They predict the preferred option will be published in summer 2021.

That's very intersting. Here's what stood out for me:

Letters to Properties: Notification letters were issued to over 5,000 properties within the Phase 2 Study Area. These letters have led to hundreds of calls from residents seeking to engage in the public consultation.

So, it seems that of all the other methods mentioned (Newspapers (national and local), Local Radio, Briefing to Elected Representatives, Project Website, Local Authority Websites, Twitter) none were as noteworthy in producing responses as posting letters to people's houses was.

Worth keeping in mind for other public consultations, and proves a point I made before in relation to another project - the public do not follow all these other methods as closely as some here assume they do.

Hibernicis · 05-02-2021 2:47pm

serfboard wrote: »

That's very intersting. Here's what stood out for me:

Letters to Properties: Notification letters were issued to over 5,000 properties within the Phase 2 Study Area. These letters have led to hundreds of calls from residents seeking to engage in the public consultation.

So, it seems that of all the other methods mentioned (Newspapers (national and local), Local Radio, Briefing to Elected Representatives, Project Website, Local Authority Websites, Twitter) none were as noteworthy in producing responses as posting letters to people's houses was.

Worth keeping in mind for other public consultations, and proves a point I made before in relation to another project - the public do not follow all these other methods as closely as some here assume they do.

That’s a very good point and it’s good to see the Council learning from previous experiences. Should help avoid a situation in the future where the council is accused of trampling on people’s rights and failing to engage meaningfully as happened in the case of the M28.

Also good to see the timeline for the publication of the preferred route.

Limerick74 · 07-02-2021 12:26pm

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/607595/limerick-enterprise-development-partnership-seeks-reinstatement-of-m20-link-road.html

He may not like the access arrangement but it was never a temporary one.

Isambard · 07-02-2021 4:19pm

Limerick74 wrote: »

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/607595/limerick-enterprise-development-partnership-seeks-reinstatement-of-m20-link-road.html

He may not like the access arrangement but it was never a temporary one.

I always thought it was an odd way to do it but I think maybe it was to stop traffic back ups on to the Motorway.

Bass Reeves · 07-02-2021 8:20pm

Isambard wrote: »

I always thought it was an odd way to do it but I think maybe it was to stop traffic back ups on to the Motorway.

They would have had to build a second bridge or interchange. It's a four way intersection. By 2008 they knew that traffic light roundabouts were a disaster and traffic backs up on them. You need a proper interchange. Once again the BRA went for the cheap option and did not future proof the road.

Limerick the third biggest city in Ireland technically has only two junctions to enter the city center. Both roads off these, the dock road and Tipperary/ Ballysimon road both clog up at rush out. Drivers are using the Dooradoyle exit and coming down past Old Cresent rugby club into a build up area as a rat run into the city. Drivers use the Tipperary junction and Bloodmill road as another day run to access the Parkway/Rhebogue area. Traffic from the Ennis side still use the Condell Road, many avoid the toll coming in past the Limerick Inn as there is no time savings going through the tunnel to access the city center

M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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