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Will you download the contact tracing app?

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Comments

  • #1252
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,118 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    So in other news that is actually relavent to the Covid app, for some of us at least, the Irish app is no longer appearing in a search for the app on the UK Google store for some reason (possibly the NI version is imminent). Although it is still possible to download the Irish app in the UK if you find the direct link to it.

    Similarly the German app is now also downloadable in the UK, but can't be found from a search on the store:
    https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/themen/corona-warn-app

    The app seems to be all in English and the method of activating the uploading of your codes in the event of a positive test seems to be possible by either scanning a QR code or entering a code like the Irish app. Guess this is to cover multiple countries methods for confirming the positive tests.

    Also seems to have a way to see how many people you may have come into contact with who are using the app with an exposure logging feature. I'd be very surprised if that registers any contacts for me as nobody round here is going to be running any app. Would be interesting if it did register any exposure in Ireland though as that would show if the international apps really do work together or if we'd need to download a different one for every country in the future.


  • #1253
    jester77
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,264 ✭✭✭✭jester77


    I read somewhere, can't find it now, that Apple and Google were originally limiting the search of Corona apps to just the local version. So if you are registered in the Irish play store, you will only find the irish app. Don't know if they are still doing this, but I guess it makes sense to avoid people installing the wrong app for their area.


  • #1254
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,118 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    jester77 wrote: »
    I read somewhere, can't find it now, that Apple and Google were originally limiting the search of Corona apps to just the local version. So if you are registered in the Irish play store, you will only find the irish app. Don't know if they are still doing this, but I guess it makes sense to avoid people installing the wrong app for their area.
    Seems that they have actually lifted the geo blocks on all apps now as the French and Australian ones are now downloadable, just the search from with the Play store which will only show local one or none in my case today. It did show the Irish one yesterday.

    I had looked at the download pages for the Australia one a week or so ago and the download was blocked then.


  • #1255
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,403 ✭✭✭plodder


    KyussB wrote: »
    I said they didn't dispute it - you can't prove a negative. You are claiming they do dispute it, something which is provable/citable - you need to quote that.
    Well the link on the Mitre page says the report is "disputed", but let's look at the conversation and try and pin it down some more. It was over and back a bit. Initially, Google said there was no bug. Then they said there might be. And then they said it doesn't reduce privacy anyway. So, then the bug reporter says:
    reporter wrote:
    "I need you to understand the big picture. This is not a Won't Fix issue if the first app goes to a court here in Europe. I will write an agent simulation to validate my expectations..."
    The google engineer then replied:
    google engineer wrote:
    I think the simulation won't find a statistically significant improvement in tracking ...
    They also then replied that they wouldn't be making an award to the reporter under their Vulnerability Reward Program.

    The reporter then seems to acknowledge that there is no statistical improvement in tracking and he seems to change the issue to be about the fact that the ExposureNotification service is doing much higher level of advertising compared to other Bluetooth services. The Google engineer acknowledges this switch and the thread goes quiet. I think they are thinking they have put more than enough time into this report already and it certainly doesn't sound to me like them accepting the issue is a vulnerability.


  • #1256
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    plodder wrote: »
    Well the link on the Mitre page says the report is "disputed", but let's look at the conversation and try and pin it down some more. It was over and back a bit. Initially, Google said there was no bug. Then they said there might be. And then they said it doesn't reduce privacy anyway. So, then the bug reporter says:

    The google engineer then replied:

    They also then replied that they wouldn't be making an award to the reporter under their Vulnerability Reward Program.

    The reporter then seems to acknowledge that there is no statistical improvement in tracking and he seems to change the issue to be about the fact that the ExposureNotification service is doing much higher level of advertising compared to other Bluetooth services. The Google engineer acknowledges this switch and the thread goes quiet. I think they are thinking they have put more than enough time into this report already and it certainly doesn't sound to me like them accepting the issue is a vulnerability.
    Yet in the discussion between Google and the security researcher, the timing issue is NOT disputed - only the MAC/UID sync issue...The simulation is for the MAC/UID issue, not the timing issue...

    In the discussion he even says the timing issue is not relevant for the CVE - so the disputed status for the CVE, does not represent a dispute of the timing isuse.

    So Google does not dispute the timing issue - you can not cite them as saying they do. All I have ever said, is that they don't dispute it - I did not make the claim that they accept it either. You made the claim that they dispute the timing issue though, which they do not - and you're fully aware that what you're quoting only related to the MAC/UID issue.


  • #1257
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,403 ✭✭✭plodder


    KyussB wrote: »
    Yet in the discussion between Google and the security researcher, the timing issue is NOT disputed - only the MAC/UID sync issue...The simulation is for the MAC/UID issue, not the timing issue...

    In the discussion he even says the timing issue is not relevant for the CVE - so the disputed status for the CVE, does not represent a dispute of the timing isuse.

    So Google does not dispute the timing issue - you can not cite them as saying they do. All I have ever said, is that they don't dispute it - I did not make the claim that they accept it either. You made the claim that they dispute the timing issue though, which they do not - and you're fully aware that what you're quoting only related to the MAC/UID issue.
    No. What happened is their initial evaluation of the issue was incorrect as they had claimed that the MAC and RPI roll over synchronously, which is not always the case. So, they opened a bug on the issue. That is the part they do not dispute.

    The conversation then went on to discuss the security implications of the issue and they do not accept the issue is a security vulnerability - the point being that statistically the phones rotate both the MAC and RPI on average every 15 minutes and the tracking protection is equivalent.

    I realise this conversation is way out of scope for this thread. So, I'd ask you again to point out where in the conversation (that you posted) did Google accept that the issue is a vulnerability. Don't reply with "can't prove a negative". It's either in the conversation or it isn't. Either do that or just drop it and come back if further information comes to light which shows they do accept it. I think we should keep technical talk out of this. The only thing potentially interesting to other people would be whether Google accept it's a vulnerability (or maybe if some respected third party thinks it is).

    It may technically be a bug, because the code is doing something different to what the specification said it should do. But, (they say) it is not a security issue. My guess is that they will not fix it because they don't need to. And that is the reason why we aren't hearing all about it in the media.


  • #1258
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    I've repeated to you several times: The MAC/RPI issue, is not the timing issue. They do not dispute the timing issue (which is down to the frequency that the beacon advertises), which applies regardless of the MAC/RPI switchover sync.

    Read the last few emails in the link.

    Google did not reject the timing issue. I did not say they accept the timing issue, I said they did not reject it. You say they reject the timing issue, but you pont to the MAC/RPI issue, which is not the same.

    Before you reply again: Do you understand the difference between the MAC/RPI sync issue, and the separate beacon advertising frequency timing issue?


  • #1259
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,118 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Before you reply again, do you understand the difference between something that is a problem and something that isn't a problem?

    For example, it is a problem if people don't download the Covid tracking app in sufficient numbers to make it useful in tracking the spread in public areas and helping to limit its spread. It isn't a problem if in downloading the app and Google/ Apple enabling its functionality a very small number of peoples phones might theoretically be vulnerable to a hack that nobody has actually ever made use of due to a minor bug in a system that has been in existence for long before this app came out.


  • #1260
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,403 ✭✭✭plodder


    Anyone who wants to can see the CVE from this link at nist.gov

    https://nvd.nist.gov/vuln/detail/CVE-2020-13702

    The very first word of the report is ** DISPUTED **

    I don't think there is much else to be said about it, at this point.


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  • #1261
    Tokyo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,655 ✭✭✭✭Tokyo


    KyussB wrote: »
    Before you reply again: Do you understand the difference between the MAC/RPI sync issue, and the separate beacon advertising frequency timing issue?

    Mod: I do.

    I also know it's not a current affair. Let's save the standards breakdown for a more appropriate forum.


  • #1262
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,403 ✭✭✭plodder


    Data Protection Commission satisfied there are no issues with Covid tracker app

    The DPC hasn't been afraid to have a go at the government in the past, eg with the Public Services Card. So, this might be re-assuring for some people, though clearly not all.


  • #1263
    Paranoid Bob
    Registered Users Posts: 121 ✭✭Paranoid Bob


    I think a very relevant and current issue here is that the R number in Ireland is at or above 1 again. Keeping the R number at or below 1 is one of the key measures for re-opening the economy. If it stays high then stage 4 may be delayed and if it gets much higher then there is a risk we'll have to go back to a more restrictive lockdown for a while.

    Please, for the sake of all the people whose livelihoods depend on workplaces being open and for the sake of the economy; not to mention for the sake of protecting the health of vulnerable people:
    Wash you hands.
    Follow social distancing guidance.
    Wear a mask on public transport and in public indoor spaces.
    Limit social interaction.
    Install this app.
    Isolate if required.

    If we don't do all we can to limit the spread of the virus then we'll look back on early July as that brief window of blissful freedom before the country shut down again.


  • #1264
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    Well, I can't discuss the technical details further - but the Electronic Frontier Foundation is a lot less definitive - and people such as the technical program manager at HackerOne, among others, are also not definitive about it and highlight concerns.


  • #1265
    Hrududu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,711 ✭✭✭Hrududu


    I had read earlier in the week that you could install the app on iPhone 6 as long as you updated the version of iOS to 13 but looks like that is for iPhone 6S as opposed to the iPhone 6. I think the highest version of iOS you can put on the iPhone 6 is 12.x


  • #1266
    the corpo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭the corpo


    So I installed the app on iphone 11 the night it became available. Glanced at it the first couple of days, checked in with no symptoms etc. Just launched it for the first time in a couple of days and it made me set it up as new, put my number in again etc., and has no history of my previous check in's.
    So, what has caused it to reset? Has it not been active for the last few days?

    Has anyone else noticed this? Pretty major bug if you need to load it on a daily basis to keep it running...


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  • #1267
    ACitizenErased
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,675 ✭✭✭✭ACitizenErased


    the corpo wrote: »
    So I installed the app on iphone 11 the night it became available. Glanced at it the first couple of days, checked in with no symptoms etc. Just launched it for the first time in a couple of days and it made me set it up as new, put my number in again etc., and has no history of my previous check in's.
    So, what has caused it to reset? Has it not been active for the last few days?

    Has anyone else noticed this? Pretty major bug if you need to load it on a daily basis to keep it running...

    Was involved in testing and have it downloaded for a few days and never seen this happen.


  • #1268
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,403 ✭✭✭plodder


    the corpo wrote: »
    So I installed the app on iphone 11 the night it became available. Glanced at it the first couple of days, checked in with no symptoms etc. Just launched it for the first time in a couple of days and it made me set it up as new, put my number in again etc., and has no history of my previous check in's.
    So, what has caused it to reset? Has it not been active for the last few days?

    Has anyone else noticed this? Pretty major bug if you need to load it on a daily basis to keep it running...
    They should have some form of support function for the app. I notice that on Android anyway, the developer contact is listed as the email address "digital@hse.ie". You could try emailing them.


  • #1269
    the corpo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭the corpo


    ACitizenErased wrote: »
    Was involved in testing and have it downloaded for a few days and never seen this happen.

    Aye, it's odd. I turned bluetooth for a minute earlier for an unrelated reason, wonder does that cause a reboot.

    Also, and this may be common, I've not read back too many pages, but under both the Data protection and Terms and Conditions items, I'm getting blank pages, saying the items could not be loaded.


  • #1270
    Drumpot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    I keep getting a warning on The app.

    65-D17-CF8-3-A6-E-440-F-85-E4-8-FC1-E864-B951.jpg

    I didn’t change any settings and it worked fine initially when installed. Anybody else having this issue?


  • #1271
    KildareP
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭KildareP


    Drumpot wrote: »
    I keep getting a warning on The app.

    65-D17-CF8-3-A6-E-440-F-85-E4-8-FC1-E864-B951.jpg

    I didn’t change any settings and it worked fine initially when installed. Anybody else having this issue?

    Myself and the other half both getting this 3-4 times a day. Moving around (eg walk to the shops and back, heading to work and back) seems to trigger it for us.

    Google showing lots of people reporting similar in numerous countries with their own apps.


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  • #1272
    Drumpot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    KildareP wrote: »
    Myself and the other half both getting this 3-4 times a day. Moving around (eg walk to the shops and back, heading to work and back) seems to trigger it for us.

    Google showing lots of people reporting similar in numerous countries with their own apps.

    It’s annoying but I’m more concerned that it’s doing it’s job and logging my trips so it functions correctly.


  • #1273
    KildareP
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭KildareP


    Drumpot wrote: »
    It’s annoying but I’m more concerned that it’s doing it’s job and logging my trips so it functions correctly.

    The consensus online is that it is, it's just a bug.


  • #1274
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,118 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    KildareP wrote: »
    Myself and the other half both getting this 3-4 times a day. Moving around (eg walk to the shops and back, heading to work and back) seems to trigger it for us.

    Google showing lots of people reporting similar in numerous countries with their own apps.

    Possibly some mobile network needs to reboot their signal mast because its defaulted to thinking its setup in China or something?


  • #1275
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,530 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    KyussB wrote: »
    Well, I can't discuss the technical details further - but the Electronic Frontier Foundation is a lot less definitive - and people such as the technical program manager at HackerOne, among others, are also not definitive about it and highlight concerns.

    Re the EFF link does the Irish app up load daily diagnosis keys to the public registry, ???

    Kismet and similar can already locate and track mobiles from Wifi and Bluetooth and DECT
    You can buy mobile phone base stations if you want to roll your own stingray type sniffer.


    EU directives means that mobile phone companies MUST keep certain metadata like times and locations and called numbers and IP address for a LOT longer than two weeks.

    Google and Apple will try and hide your data. If only because they don't want to give it away for free.

    The Irish Secret Service is the best in the world because nobody knows they exist :pac:
    And if they didn't already have your data (that is if they actually if actually they existed) they could ask GCHQ, BND , DGSE, CNI , SAEPO or the MIVD

    If you are paranoid you may have come across the Chinese social credit system. And seen the picture where CCTV camera operators can see way too much info about people there. The truly paranoid would hide in the noise rather than stand out by not having a phone.


  • #1276
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    KildareP wrote: »
    The consensus online is that it is, it's just a bug.

    Where you seeing this consensus?


  • #1277
    YFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,717 ✭✭✭YFlyer


    What is the purpose and benefit of this app?


  • #1278
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,530 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    YFlyer wrote: »
    What is the purpose and benefit of this app?
    Benefit is it speeds up contact tracing so people can self-isolate earlier.

    You have to self report and get a six digit code from the HSE before the app anonymously alerts others that they may have been in proximity to someone who might have had symptoms.


  • #1279
    YFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,717 ✭✭✭YFlyer


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Benefit is it speeds up contact tracing so people can self-isolate earlier.

    You have to self report and get a six digit code from the HSE before the app anonymously alerts others that they may have been in proximity to someone who might have had symptoms.

    Thanks.

    What is the cut off point for proximity in both time and distance?

    I would only self isolate if someone I'm in regular or occasional contact got infected. A blip on my phone that some randomer who was found to be infected was in close proximity to me. I would insist on a Covid19 test as soon as possible.


  • #1280
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Re the EFF link does the Irish app up load daily diagnosis keys to the public registry, ???

    Kismet and similar can already locate and track mobiles from Wifi and Bluetooth and DECT
    You can buy mobile phone base stations if you want to roll your own stingray type sniffer.


    EU directives means that mobile phone companies MUST keep certain metadata like times and locations and called numbers and IP address for a LOT longer than two weeks.

    Google and Apple will try and hide your data. If only because they don't want to give it away for free.

    The Irish Secret Service is the best in the world because nobody knows they exist :pac:
    And if they didn't already have your data (that is if they actually if actually they existed) they could ask GCHQ, BND , DGSE, CNI , SAEPO or the MIVD

    If you are paranoid you may have come across the Chinese social credit system. And seen the picture where CCTV camera operators can see way too much info about people there. The truly paranoid would hide in the noise rather than stand out by not having a phone.
    Not able to discuss any of that in the thread now, but I would otherwise. The EFF link is relevant in what it discusses about the Exposure API and how that functions - as that's what the covid app uses.

    The issues I was discussing before (and can't discuss now) were just different types of privacy/security issues - which are no less significant due to the existence of other means of tracking or privacy issues.


  • #1281
    YFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,717 ✭✭✭YFlyer


    KyussB wrote: »
    Not able to discuss any of that in the thread now, but I would otherwise. The EFF link is relevant in what it discusses about the Exposure API and how that functions - as that's what the covid app uses.

    The issues I was discussing before (and can't discuss now) were just different types of privacy/security issues - which are no less significant due to the existence of other means of tracking or privacy issues.

    How affected is it? Actually is there any papers on the traceability potential of these apps?

    I can understand low field nuclear magnetic resonance in finding pockets of oil in the ground. I can also understand that having your smart phone, you could get advertisements from a shop when you pass by it.


    An app to pick up that you were in contact with a person that was found to be infected. I'm having my doubts.


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  • #1282
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,530 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    YFlyer wrote: »
    Thanks.

    What is the cut off point for proximity in both time and distance?

    I would only self isolate if someone I'm in regular or occasional contact got infected. A blip on my phone that some randomer who was found to be infected was in close proximity to me. I would insist on a Covid19 test as soon as possible.
    Time 14 days.

    And remember it doesn't upload share anything unless you get a code from the HSE and even then the sharing is anonymous. It only shares a changing random number and it's up to the other phones to figure out if they've seen the random number before.


    Distance varies because of reflections and pockets. It's a compromise but you'd most likely smell a smoker in that distance.

    You could do way better by having both the front back cameras doing facial recognition but that would be a real privacy concern.


  • #1283
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,118 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    YFlyer wrote: »
    Thanks.

    What is the cut off point for proximity in both time and distance?

    I would only self isolate if someone I'm in regular or occasional contact got infected. A blip on my phone that some randomer who was found to be infected was in close proximity to me. I would insist on a Covid19 test as soon as possible.

    It's only going to give you a warning if the app thinks you've been in close proximity to someone for a long duration that then subsequently gets a positive result.

    If you drive from home, to the shop, to work and back home again then it's not going to pick-up anyone else that you walk past in the street as having been a contact, just those who you were sat in the office with all day.

    However if you spend half an hour on the bus each morning on the way to work, then go for an extended pub lunch, then go to another couple of pubs in the evening before getting another bus back home again you could have been in close proximity to quiet a number of people who might then test positive and you'd have no idea who any of them were. That is where the app comes in and it will notify you if one of them tests positive.


  • #1284
    Worztron
    Registered Users Posts: 8,741 ✭✭✭Worztron


    GooglePlus wrote: »
    Why would you want the code readily available to manipulate?

    You misunderstand how open-source software licensing works. The author of the HSE C19 app still has control over it. Please read: https://computer.howstuffworks.com/question435.htm

    Mitch Hedberg: "Rice is great if you're really hungry and want to eat two thousand of something."



  • #1285
    Worztron
    Registered Users Posts: 8,741 ✭✭✭Worztron


    murpho999 wrote: »
    Because then anybody can change it.

    Also I don't think Apple allow open source, not sure about Google.

    Plenty of info can be found here.

    You misapprehend how open-source programs work. The author of the HSE C19 app will remain in control of it's code. Please read: https://computer.howstuffworks.com/question435.htm

    Mitch Hedberg: "Rice is great if you're really hungry and want to eat two thousand of something."



  • #1286
    Worztron
    Registered Users Posts: 8,741 ✭✭✭Worztron


    timmy_mallet wrote: »
    They can only change the code if the maintainer (HSE) accepts a change, and deploys that change to the app store, and you download the update.

    Exactly.

    Mitch Hedberg: "Rice is great if you're really hungry and want to eat two thousand of something."



  • #1287
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    YFlyer wrote: »
    How affected is it? Actually is there any papers on the traceability potential of these apps?

    I can understand low field nuclear magnetic resonance in finding pockets of oil in the ground. I can also understand that having your smart phone, you could get advertisements from a shop when you pass by it.


    An app to pick up that you were in contact with a person that was found to be infected. I'm having my doubts.
    I'm not really able to discuss it in the thread anymore, but if you run Android just make sure you're either on 10, or if you're on 8 or 9 make sure you got a security update since February - that is a different thing to the traceability though.


  • #1288
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,118 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    YFlyer wrote: »
    An app to pick up that you were in contact with a person that was found to be infected. I'm having my doubts.

    Ignore what KyrussB is saying as they are talking about something completely different and some perceived problems with the Android OS that Google are aware of and have patched, or is not really the issue it's being claimed depending on which bug they are posting about at the time.

    Regarding the app it is just communicating with other people who have the app on their phones. They are then sharing random codes with each other. These codes are in no way linkable back to you but just a record that your phone was near the other phone for a period of time. In the event that one of you tests positive those random codes get uploaded so that the other persons phone can be told that it was near a phone of someone who tested positive and that you should then take extra precautions.

    It's just a way to contact trace people who you might have sat next to on the bus, in the pub or coffee shop and have no idea of who they actually were.


  • #1289
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    That's not an accurate take on what I've been discussing (and can't discuss now...), that poster has deliberately lied about what I've said several times so far in the thread - so don't take anything that posters says, about what I've discussed, as accurate.

    There are a handful of issues, one of them patched with the right Android version, another is a more minor privacy issue that is still there and will probably remain permanently, and there are yet more issues and potential issues detailed by the Electronic Frontier Foundation and cybersecurity firms - none of which I can get into.


  • #1290
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,118 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    KyussB wrote: »
    That's not an accurate take on what I've been discussing (and can't discuss now...), that poster has deliberately lied about what I've said several times so far in the thread - so don't take anything that posters says, about what I've discussed, as accurate.

    There are a handful of issues, one of them patched with the right Android version, another is a more minor privacy issue that is still there and will probably remain permanently, and there are yet more issues and potential issues detailed by the Electronic Frontier Foundation and cybersecurity firms - none of which I can get into.

    The question was about how the app works, but you've responded regarding the OS bugs that you are stuck trying to get people upset about.


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  • #1291
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    Doesn't matter what the question was about, you were making false claims about what I said again - which I told you not to do, repeatedly, because you keep forcing me to reply to correct your misrepresentations.

    Do me the favour of not referencing me again in the thread, so you're not forcing me to correct continuous/unending misrepresentations of what I've said...


  • #1292
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,118 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    KyussB wrote: »
    Doesn't matter what the question was about...

    It kind of does if you are claiming to provide an answer to it, but in the process answer something completely different that hadn't been asked. Hence I pointed out that you were talking about something irrelevant, answered the question which had been actually asked, yet you keep coming back trying to bring up an unrelated and unasked for answer.


  • #1293
    fly_agaric
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,973 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    KyussB wrote:
    Well, I can't discuss the technical details further
    KyussB wrote:
    and can't discuss now...
    KyussB wrote:
    I'm not really able to discuss it in the thread anymore
    KyussB wrote:
    Not able to discuss any of that in the thread now, but I would otherwise

    Dear me, you are very hard done by.:(

    Hasn't hampered your fear, uncertainty and doubt campaign against this application. Now you also can drop dark hints about secrets revealed only by the links you post up repeatedly + complain how you are being gagged, so well played there.

    Application is at well over 1m registrations now :), so looks like the public are not listening and if you took it to more appropriate technical fora on this website even fewer eyeballs would see your efforts.


  • #1294
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    robinph wrote: »
    It kind of does if you are claiming to provide an answer to it, but in the process answer something completely different that hadn't been asked. Hence I pointed out that you were talking about something irrelevant, answered the question which had been actually asked, yet you keep coming back trying to bring up an unrelated and unasked for answer.
    You seem to deliberately misrepresent what I say, as a wind-up to drive things off topic and bring further mod action on me or something...

    I answered that poster in this post - it's a valid answer to the poster, referencing the first sentence. I'm not interested in a stupid meta-discussion about what I did and didn't say, when you've a track record of regularly lying about stuff I've said.

    This type of wind-up leaves me with very few options - 1: Ignore it and let everything I've said be misrepresented/smeared (other posters will/do get convinced of such smears), 2: Report you for constant wind-ups/misrepresentations and know fuck all will be done, that it's more likely to come back on me instead (I know this from past experience with similar situations), 3: Keep on rebutting the smears/misrepresentations, so they don't stick, until you and others make up enough excuses to ding me with reports until there's further mod action against me...Lose-lose options all around.

    I've been very clear: I don't want to be replying to you further. I've said that maybe half a dozen times already. Don't force me to reply by lying about what I've said again, as I have to correct smears like that.


  • #1295
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    fly_agaric wrote: »
    Dear me, you are very hard done by.:(

    Hasn't hampered your fear, uncertainty and doubt campaign against this application. Now you also can drop dark hints about secrets revealed only by the links you post up repeatedly + complain how you are being gagged, so well played there.

    Application is at well over 1m registrations now :), so looks like the public are not listening and if you took it to more appropriate technical fora on this website even fewer eyeballs would see your efforts.
    I've kept the technical discussion out of it, since told to.

    Privacy/security concerns that the Electronic Frontier Foundation (one of the most well known digital-rights-focused civil liberties institutions) and cybersecurity firms have expressed, are perfectly valid to link to, and people who are interested in the app have a right to know - there is nothing FUD-based or 'secret' about their concerns - the only FUD there is, is the manner through which security/privacy concerns are downplayed.


  • #1296
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,118 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    KyussB wrote: »
    I've kept the technical discussion out of it, since told to.

    Well you are claiming to, yet every posts just keeps on bringing it back up again. For someone so insistent on not talking about a topic you are doing a hell of a lot of talking about that topic.

    Do you have anything to say on the merits of the actual app itself? If it will do what it's hoped it will do? If there will be enough people who install it? If there will be enough people with it still installed in 3 months time when it could be crucial in nipping a new outbreak in the bud when people have otherwise relaxed most of their social distancing?


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  • #1297
    JazzyJ
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 683 ✭✭✭JazzyJ


    On my phone if I go into the exposure checks part of the application, for each check "the number of keys" value for me is always 0. Is this correct?

    I would have thought that this is the keys of recent close contacts? Or is it something else? I've definitely had close contact with people who are running the app and theirs are showing 0 for this also.


  • #1298
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,118 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    JazzyJ wrote: »
    On my phone if I go into the exposure checks part of the application, for each check "the number of keys" value for me is always 0. Is this correct?

    I would have thought that this is the keys of recent close contacts? Or is it something else? I've definitely had close contact with people who are running the app and theirs are showing 0 for this also.
    From the slightly different explanation on the German app it appears that stat is how many people who you have had contact with who have since tested positive.


  • #1299
    Jim_Hodge
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,242 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    JazzyJ wrote: »
    On my phone if I go into the exposure checks part of the application, for each check "the number of keys" value for me is always 0. Is this correct?

    I would have thought that this is the keys of recent close contacts? Or is it something else? I've definitely had close contact with people who are running the app and theirs are showing 0 for this also.

    Surely it's contacts with positive cases not every contact with every person.


  • #1300
    KyussB
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭KyussB


    robinph wrote: »
    Well you are claiming to, yet every posts just keeps on bringing it back up again. For someone so insistent on not talking about a topic you are doing a hell of a lot of talking about that topic.

    Do you have anything to say on the merits of the actual app itself? If it will do what it's hoped it will do? If there will be enough people who install it? If there will be enough people with it still installed in 3 months time when it could be crucial in nipping a new outbreak in the bud when people have otherwise relaxed most of their social distancing?
    I haven't discussed anything technical with the app since told not to - and that wasn't in reply to you either - once again you're lying about the content of my posts.

    The only reason I'm still replying in the thread is because of you lying about the contents of my posts - and you insist on replying to me to do this once again, even when I am replying to someone else, not you.

    I have been telling you more than half a dozen times, I don't want to be replying to you - you lie about the contents of my posts every time you reply to or reference me.

    I know you are trying to goad me into receiving fresh mod action, by forcing me to reply to correct misrepresentations/lies about my posts - and coming from a mod on a different subforum, it's pretty suspect/shitty behaviour.

    I don't want to reply to you in this thread again. You don't want me posting in the thread. So don't reply to me or misrepresent my posts, in order to elicit another reply from me correcting that.
    I am in a lose-lose situation here, where I am either going to be smeared, or dragged into mod action...


  • #1301
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,118 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Jim_Hodge wrote: »
    Surely it's contacts with positive cases not every contact with every person.

    Yes, only positive cases are relevant, but it's not clear how they might be calculating the risk from that.

    It could count 15 minutes with one person who test positive as one instance and low risk, but if you happen to sat next to the same person for 2hrs in the cinema it could count it as 8 contacts with positive people and rank it high risk although it was still just the same person. Or if you spend half an hour up the pub with 4 people who then all test positive is that counted the same as one person for two hours.


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