Spring 2020..... 1.5m Dairy calves.... discuss.

alps wrote: »

Looks like the ICMSA lads were partying it up at the latest think in...

The full details of this new scheme are as follows:
The scheme will be open to all livestock farmers, but agents and feedlots would be excluded;
Farmers that apply to the scheme must rear calves from the dairy herd;
Farmers can only stock their farm at the stocking rate they had in 2019, so as to avoid an increase in beef production;
Male and female calves with a beef sire and dairy dam are eligible for the scheme. However, the sire must be selected from the ICBF Dairy Beef Index (DBI) or if a stock bull is used, the stock bull must have four or five stars on the terminal index;
The calves must be less than six weeks-of-age at time of purchase;
An initial payment of €75 can be drawn down by the farmer once the animal is weighed between six and ten months;
The second payment of €75 is drawn down after the animal is slaughtered;
Steers must be slaughtered within 30 months and heifers must be slaughtered within 24 months;
Suckler farmers that wish to enter the scheme in 2020 should be allowed exit the Beef Data Genomics Programme (BDGP) without any ‘clawback’ of monies;
Farmers can only avail of the scheme on a maximum of 100 calves per year

The icbf dairy beef index and it been hearld as the gospeal for good beef bulls is the most farcical thing, its weighted towards easy calving bulls not the best bulls for a beef farmer to maybe turn a few euro on a calf to beef system, kya been still on the list says it all

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

What are the choice cuts, Patsy? All the premium cuts will be too large for retail so they will be going for extra processing as industrial cuts in prepared meals which is purchased purely on price.

The JEx may be smaller but his premium cuts will be more suitable for retail that the continental animal? And the non premium will be going to where the majority of suckler beef will be going and nobody any the wiser?

But is that not just in this country and since the weight limits came into effect

Since the beef quota was removed beef farmers (around here anyway) have reduced their cow number, And due to the last 2 years there is a bigger reduction happening
Even if more beef calves from the dairy herd could take the space on the ships, there is still allot of calves for the processors to control the market

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Very little for the man whisking milk. I tried it here this year. Bought HE and AA heifers from a dairy neighbour for €185 in May when they were 6-7 weeks old. Gave them powder-milk for another 3 weeks and they’ve got 0.6kg meal for most of the time since then and the best of new grass. They’ve been vaccinated for blackleg and got 2 worm doses. They’re averaging 200kg now, after gaining around 0.7kg/day since they landed here.

Based on €1.50/kg (maybe even €1.40), they’re now worth what they cost plus the various inputs. Thankfully we don’t have too many fixed costs or this carry on wouldn’t be possible at all.

Plan is to out-winter them on rape and try to finish for this time next year. As Bass said, they’re the only animals who get a breed payment so that should help make them pay their way when everything is added up in 12 months time.

For a part-timer like me, the €75 that ICMSA are talking about would certainly help

If they were on good grass you could more than likely have pulled the ration. It growth rate that the issue. You need cattle like that to be gaining nearly 1kg/day to have a chance. However buying calves and selling as weanling is a loser anyway. Better to carry to a store. Those are good heifers if 200kg. Of you had kept you meal until mid September and fed them 1Kg outside and housed late November/December. Feed silage and 1kg for the winter these calves would be tipping 280kgs at turn out. in mid March. You should be able to finish just before or after Christmas next year at 250DW. On them type of cattle as well as friesians there is only a margin for one man.

If you bought them at 100 euro and killed at a base of 3.9 they be juts tipping 1K after deductions.

alps wrote: »

Looks like the ICMSA lads were partying it up at the latest think in...

The full details of this new scheme are as follows:
The scheme will be open to all livestock farmers, but agents and feedlots would be excluded;
Farmers that apply to the scheme must rear calves from the dairy herd;
Farmers can only stock their farm at the stocking rate they had in 2019, so as to avoid an increase in beef production;
Male and female calves with a beef sire and dairy dam are eligible for the scheme. However, the sire must be selected from the ICBF Dairy Beef Index (DBI) or if a stock bull is used, the stock bull must have four or five stars on the terminal index;
The calves must be less than six weeks-of-age at time of purchase;
An initial payment of €75 can be drawn down by the farmer once the animal is weighed between six and ten months;
The second payment of €75 is drawn down after the animal is slaughtered;
Steers must be slaughtered within 30 months and heifers must be slaughtered within 24 months;
Suckler farmers that wish to enter the scheme in 2020 should be allowed exit the Beef Data Genomics Programme (BDGP) without any ‘clawback’ of monies;
Farmers can only avail of the scheme on a maximum of 100 calves per year

Surprised nobody has questioned the logic in giving the most profitable and environmentally destructive sector another subsidy that will only further undermine the beef industry...

Mooooo wrote: »

Lad that buys calves here would have near all of his sourced by the first week of March off farm. Predominantly fr bulls and he used to do u16 month bulk beef, dunno if he still finishes that way. Excellent operator so would do everything right. I think the fact he buys the earliest calves he can helps a lot as a) they are generally cheaper and b) they make better use of grass. Without fail the dearest calves I've sold have been ones born in April, makes no sense

It's because of the reduction in quantity of calves coming to market and the shippers still operating. There's a sweet spot in calves for sale usually the very early ones (Jan sold) and the late ones.

Out of the posts posted here Base Prices makes the most sense and at least she she's the big picture of economics, markets, animal welfare, and understands that a life is a life no matter the species.
Only difference between the egg producers and ourselves is they don't have Darragh McCullough going on about a cock problem and what to do about it. But then Darragh McCullough is not on the hatcheries because they're private companies with no filming allowed and no farmers wondering on social media what they do with their cocks. They just got on with the job and traps shut.
It's not like years ago where cocks were the banes of the farmyard and dumped here there and yonder and thrown onto the rugby and hurling pitch.

If the milk companies see it as a problem and feel embarrassed let them pay someone to rear the calf (it's not as though they haven't got it. The ceo pays themselves over a million euro ffs) and then they can market that meat. At the moment it's all being pushed onto the farmer who see no problem bar the few voices here with many not involved at all or even resident in the country.

I'd agree that there needs to be something done though. The images of some French or Irish cnut bating calves in a lairage or animal on the streets of Libya with an Irish tag is not going to cut it anymore.
Even the politicians bawk at that.

Say my name wrote: »

It's because of the reduction in quantity of calves coming to market and the shippers still operating. There's a sweet spot in calves for sale usually the very early ones (Jan sold) and the late ones.

Out of the posts posted here Base Prices makes the most sense and at least she she's the big picture of economics, markets, animal welfare, and understands that a life is a life no matter the species.
Only difference between the egg producers and ourselves is they don't have Darragh McCullough going on about a cock problem and what to do about it. But then Darragh McCullough is not on the hatcheries because they're private companies with no filming allowed and no farmers wondering on social media what they do with their cocks. They just got on with the job and traps shut.
It's not like years ago where cocks were the banes of the farmyard and dumped here there and yonder and thrown onto the rugby and hurling pitch.

If the milk companies see it as a problem and feel embarrassed let them pay someone to rear the calf (it's not as though they haven't got it. The ceo pays themselves over a million euro ffs) and then they can market that meat. At the moment it's all being pushed onto the farmer who see no problem bar the few voices here with many not involved at all or even resident in the country.

I'd agree that there needs to be something done though. The images of some French or Irish cnut bating calves in a lairage or animal on the streets of Libya with an Irish tag is not going to cut it anymore.
Even the politicians bawk at that.

Lads can blame Darragh McCullough, fellas on here or anyone else. The Cock/Female chicken is an outside issue. It has SFA to do with cattle production. It more than likly will be able to be solved at the eggs stage in 5 years time, it may even be possible now buy using a tech solution. Even in NZ now the booby calf issue is coming under scrutiny. It will not be allowed to come an issue in Ireland by either Irish politicians or at EU level either. Already we see a push against exporting, this is why calves no longer go the land bridge via the UK because the ferries into the UK stopped carrying them.

Just last year we had a Dutch film crew high lighting our slatted housing. What ever happens to calves will have a much higher profile and is harder to hide. When we hit 20K slaughtering next year start to expect notice.

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Lads can blame Darragh McCullough, fellas on here or anyone else. The Cock/Female chicken is an outside issue. It has SFA to do with cattle production. It more than likly will be able to be solved at the eggs stage in 5 years time, it may even be possible now buy using a tech solution. Even in NZ now the booby calf issue is coming under scrutiny. It will not be allowed to come an issue in Ireland by either Irish politicians or at EU level either. Already we see a push against exporting, this is why calves no longer go the land bridge via the UK because the ferries into the UK stopped carrying them.

Just last year we had a Dutch film crew high lighting our slatted housing. What ever happens to calves will have a much higher profile and is harder to hide. When we hit 20K slaughtering next year start to expect notice.

Right so we can't export calves or cattle.
Because it's a welfare issue.

We can't end a calf's life at birth or a few days old or a few weeks old.
Because it's a welfare issue.

Tell me kind sir what do we do with all these extra calves and cattle on the island of Ireland?
And who will rear them and who will kill them whenever ( seemingly not a welfare issue) and what encouragement will be given to that person to rear them?

Answer the above but show us where the money to do so is coming from in this crowded market on this island.

I say island as you know NI could be lumped in with us.

Ai man was telling me here that he had used no jersey straws on any local farms 6 weeks into the breeding season this year

Say my name wrote: »

Right so we can't export calves or cattle.
Because it's a welfare issue.

We can't end a calf's life at birth or a few days old or a few weeks old.
Because it's a welfare issue.

Tell me kind sir what do we do with all these extra calves and cattle on the island of Ireland?
And who will rear them and who will kill them whenever ( seemingly not a welfare issue) and what encouragement will be given to that person to rear them?

Answer the above but show us where the money to do so is coming from in this crowded market on this island.

I say island as you know NI could be lumped in with us.

The money side or economics are immaterial. Any issues relating to it are immaterial. I believe the present EU Agri commissioner is not in favour of cattle and especially young calf exports. The dairy industry will have to solve these issues. What seems to be an issue now can and will be a problem within 5 years.

While some lads think only Jex calves are the issue it's much more widespread with the use of low terminal quality beef sites.

Usually if you keep your head stuck in the sand somebody will take the chance of giving you a root in the hole.

Say my name wrote: »

So you've no answer.

But are totally against calves being killed.
You didn't seem that way a while ago when you on about calves going for kebabs.




I can see lads getting wound up by this topic but continually going round in circles.

There a simple answer but do not want to be giving ideas to bureaucracy a levy on calves slaughtered under 3 months of age of 100 euro. If that failed increase the levy to 150. You give it a start of let's say Jan 1 2021 and announce it this December it allows farmers about 120 days to change breeding policy. You make inducing drugs illegal if not already. You set limits for calf death within herds.

That is just one solution I prefer not to have.govrn but you pushed a bit for a solution and there are others

Say my name wrote: »

Who's that all going to benefit though and they probably would do it because of the way farming is treated.
It'll only benefit the factories and absolutely nobody else.
The factories will still use the tricky market conditions talk and definitely talk about a glut of cattle.

They'll be throwing meat into the Irish Sea.

If 20-30 years ago you told a poultry farmers laying hens could not be kept in single cage's and a pig farmer that sows could not be teathered he have said impossible would not happen yet neither is in place now. Even dawg is going free range with his now

Bass Reeves wrote: »

If 20-30 years ago you told a poultry farmers laying hens could not be kept in single cage's and a pig farmer that does could not be teathered he have said impossible would not happen yet neither is in place now. Even dawg is going free range with his now

Yes but seemingly that's all apples and oranges. Completely different.
But they still shred the little cocks for snake food.

Dawg could be retiring now for all we know and be leaving all that to the next slave.
The issue with free range poultry is it's not really free range. There's still and always will be the threat of avian flu and housed as well in bad weather which is worse in this country.

Most if not all is optics and how it's related to the consumer.

Show a picture of Muckits goat like calves on a road or a quick death to a week old calf to a consumer....well from a farmers point of view I'd know which one I'd pick.

Say my name wrote: »

I haven't put a jack on a cow in three years.

Neither have a lot of newzealanders and you know where those are destined......

wrangler wrote: »

Neither have a lot of newzealanders and you know where those are destined......

World cup final?

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

I'm curious as to where lads think the suckler finished animal ends up? Too big for consumer plates and packaging, the only outlet is industrial and catering products, isn't it?

And the only beef getting a premium is AAx and HEx from those inferior dairy animals.

So when the JEx gets killed, he's going into the same end product as the apparently superior suckler animal.

This whole superior/inferior prejudice needs a bit of examining, folks.

French processors want carcasses of 400+kg...and I would think that France produces more beef and probably exports more than Ireland.

Maybe the smaller carcass is more suitable to the UK market?

(Or maybe the smaller carcasses were handy to flog to the French and call it AA...? That didn’t end well!)

yewtree wrote: »

Beef from a jex steer is better in terms of eating quality than that from a chx steer.

As above, keep repeating that...then wheel out a few world renown chefs to confirm! Easy peasy.

Maybe the beef breeds are the problem...let’s get rid of all beef breeds!

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

As above, keep repeating that...then wheel out a few world renown chefs to confirm! Easy peasy.

Maybe the beef breeds are the problem...let’s get rid of all beef breeds!

That totally depends on the market. They are supposed to have more marbling than most breeds. Some markets want that others not as much. The factories here don't want cattle over 400kgs, 90% is exported is it the factories cutting the price for the crack or do they have trouble selling in any way other than mince? The French is the market for cow's apparently whereas other markets want younger animals.

Fact is the return from beef isn't giving an economical return from any animal at the minute. When quotas came in suckler numbers jumped, will they correct backwards again now that they are gone it looks like it but there are a lot of lads producing beef at a loss and until that changes factories will have it whatever way they want it and it's not just some of the lads at calf to beef, the suckler side as well and have been for a long time. Dunno who said it I'm sure it was on some thread here but it's the lads that kill away the same handful of animals regardless of making profit or not are likely biggest aide to the factories. If they stopped due to the losses made you'd be surprised how things would correct

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Agree.

But the topic being discussed is an animal welfare issue, the economics of beef production is a completely different topic.
One can hardly call a newborn calf beef, can you?

It’s all optics. There’ll be some outcry if Ireland follows the NZ route of killing newborns...not to mention induced abortions!

Tell me why if there's such concern from the public on animals been put to sleep at birth why there's no outcry about the thoroughbred industry putting piebald foals to sleep for the sole purpose of using those mares as foster mares for the thoroughbred foals?

And don't say that's all news to yourself. There's businesses based on it.

Sheep breeder wrote: »

Very good post, export will only take what is required. As for the AA agree totally with the breed going down the road of easy calving and black to colour the xbred and totally forgot about being a beef breed.

2 Aa heifers on the kill sheet here, 270 and 359 dead. Same age. Overage 31 months.

Pollies could give you any extreme now.

K.G. wrote: »

Sorry i forgot that they got the penalties for not being qa and over 30 months increased .im only repeating what fellas arr complaining to me about.

Some people are always pissing in their own porridge.

They'd be moaning anyway.

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I see you just read the first post in the thread if you read the rest it seems not to be a common pratice.

However its immaterial. Horses are racing animals and not prone to the same outcry as what happens in food production. It pointless trying to debate this issue with you. You are coming at it from a moral and hypocrisy standpoint. All of there are immaterial. As I said before the Booby calf setup is coming under scrutiny. We do know that Glanbia have fired the first shot by closing down Greenfields and starting there calf to beef scheme.

What we do know whatever about the commercial logic it is unlikly that EU public opinion will tolerate high numbers of calf slaughtering and taht exporting of calves or even having calves travel long distances overland is being frowned upon by the public.

Already British public opinion stopped the ferries operating into and out of the UK from carrying calves for export on them. I am giving an opinion about what may happen the morals or hypocrisy is immaterial, what happens in the chicken industry, or in the horse and hound industry. The UK has banned foxhunting and it has not being reinstated by Conservative Governments. Coursing has changed it way of using live hares and even badger baiting and cockfighting is illegal

And beef farming will soon be banned and live on charity farms for the rest of their lives.
Yea I got the message Bass.
You seem to know all about the elite sport Bass. I'll leave it there so..

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Agree.

But the topic being discussed is an animal welfare issue, the economics of beef production is a completely different topic.
One can hardly call a newborn calf beef, can you?

It’s all optics. There’ll be some outcry if Ireland follows the NZ route of killing newborns...not to mention induced abortions!

Ireland won't follow that route as it simply won't be allowed to happen, particularly the induced abortions which afaik is already illegal.
Economics of beef production are a part of it as if there was a better price for beef dairy calves would be more viable. A couple of years ago jex made 120 due to beef price being high at the time. As I said previously je influence I believe is also being overplayed.
Go to a goat farm on the continent and what happens the male dairy goats born?

TooOldBoots wrote: »

I'd love to go down the route of 100% dairy cross calf to beef and be rid of these Suckler cows. Every year I hear of this big glut of cheap calves coming and how cheap they are going to be.
I also know that I could turn a profit from them, I'd be able to raise them far cheaper than those Teagasc folks.
But when I go into the mart, all I see is mad mad prices being paid for very poor calves by a new bunch of idiot farmers having landed around the ringside bidding each other up.

Buy off farm