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The Strike is over. What happens now?

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  • 22-09-2019 1:28am
    #1
    greysides
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,971 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    This thread is the continuation and amalgamation thread of the 'Is it time to lift the beef pickets?' thread and the 'Beef strike II what's a fair base price for the Autumn for R=3= steers?' thread.

    I've brought over the pertinent last posts from each of the threads.

    The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress. Joseph Joubert

    The ultimate purpose of debate is not to produce consensus. It's to promote critical thinking.

    Adam Grant



«134567…36

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    #2
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    There was a lot of nativity on both sides. However by far the biggest nativity was on the processor and large finisher side. Loads of so called experts have been proven wrong.
    While some of Beefplans thinking was not realistic mainly there price talking of 4.5/kg. Processor and large finisher's have created a mess for themselves.

    For processors a light has been shone on there businesses that will be hard to turn off. 30 month limit and predatory pricing on certain animal types mainly bulls will put pressure on them to change these tactics.

    Another issue for them is VAT on there own feedlots and larger finisher's killing over 1k cattle / year. If we assume that these finisher's kill over 100k/year if the law changes it will cost them 5-7 million euros and that is at present prices when prices rise you can add another million to that.

    Generic producer groups have been approved and thus will force up prices and facilitate forward pricing especially for winter and early summer cattle. And Wrangler I know according to you they existed already but these are a totally different beast to your idea of a PG. As well we may see the HR and AA PG's able to negotiate national base prices

    Processors as well face the problem that Courts and the law is not an option to stop/manage these strikes/protests. Farmers will not be reluctant to go again and from now on will insist on negotiation while pickets are in place. As well contrary to some experts here chill room's only stay full for so long. I was sick of telling lads that meat can only stay in a chill room for 3-4 weeks max after that there is only a week on the supermarket shelf. As well you cannot replace 30k + of cattle with Polish it any other beef and processing space is also an issue.

    The new Beef Forum will be more farmer friendly and will side more with farmers than if processor's had behaved after the first part of the protest. The Government will not want a rehash of this during an election next year and the sword of VAT and maybe labour rules may be held over the processor's.

    While no side can claim an outright victory the farmers have changed the rules of the game.

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #3
    manjou
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭manjou


    also having been at liffy a good bit seen alot more of beef industry than realised. There isent as much of a oversupply as people think or being told it did not take many days of no killing to empty stocks and if farmers had banded together better an stoped kill altoghter a week would have been alot. they can pay more but they cannot. there is a huge elephant in room controlling all with rendering plants. 3.75 was on offer last Monday till the factories were told if you pay that your offal will not be processed so that will have to be addressed . but I think alot was achieved and some good came out of it.


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    #4
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,058 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    There was a lot of nativity on both sides. However by far the biggest nativity was on the processor and large finisher side. Loads of so called experts have been proven wrong.
    While some of Beefplans thinking was not realistic mainly there price talking of 4.5/kg. Processor and large finisher's have created a mess for themselves.

    For processors a light has been shone on there businesses that will be hard to turn off. 30 month limit and predatory pricing on certain animal types mainly bulls will put pressure on them to change these tactics.

    Another issue for them is VAT on there own feedlots and larger finisher's killing over 1k cattle / year. If we assume that these finisher's kill over 100k/year if the law changes it will cost them 5-7 million euros and that is at present prices when prices rise you can add another million to that.

    Generic producer groups have been approved and thus will force up prices and facilitate forward pricing especially for winter and early summer cattle. And Wrangler I know according to you they existed already but these are a totally different beast to your idea of a PG. As well we may see the HR and AA PG's able to negotiate national base prices

    Processors as well face the problem that Courts and the law is not an option to stop/manage these strikes/protests. Farmers will not be reluctant to go again and from now on will insist on negotiation while pickets are in place. As well contrary to some experts here chill room's only stay full for so long. I was sick of telling lads that meat can only stay in a chill room for 3-4 weeks max after that there is only a week on the supermarket shelf. As well you cannot replace 30k + of cattle with Polish it any other beef and processing space is also an issue.

    The new Beef Forum will be more farmer friendly and will side more with farmers than if processor's had behaved after the first part of the protest. The Government will not want a rehash of this during an election next year and the sword of VAT and maybe labour rules may be held over the processor's.

    While no side can claim an outright victory the farmers have changed the rules of the game.

    Our group is going well now due mainly to the ability of our suppliers to supply the majority of the lambs inspec , What future have beef producer groups when they even whinge about becoming QA......... becoming QA is not an onerous ask compared with the effort to be a proper producer group


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    #5
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    wrangler wrote: »


    Our group is going well now due mainly to the ability of our suppliers to supply the majority of the lambs inspec , What future have beef producer groups when they even whinge about becoming QA......... becoming QA is not an onerous ask compared with the effort to be a proper producer group

    Where the issue arose with QA was that over the last five years the grading got harder. This drove a lot of cattle outside QA spec and cattle were penalised as well. Processor wanted lighter carcasses but then the grading of these cattle penalised them. A bullock or heifer that graded O=/O+ at 400+DW was not a P or O- at 330DW. It was immaterial to processor's what the grade was as they were putting them on trays for the retailer's.

    As well as that Cows and Bulls that there was no bonus for were penalised as well if not QA and that was if they would slaughter them. Less than 20% of cattle slaughtered qualified for QA.

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #6
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    According to Agrikand the Liffey meats agreement also covers Bulls. The Price for O/R/U price of 3.3/3.4/3.5 per kg. As well both side will go to abritation in case of issues with the agreement. Np protesters to be discriminated against etc.

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #7
    Panch18
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭Panch18


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    Where the issue arose with QA was that over the last five years the grading got harder. This drove a lot of cattle outside QA spec and cattle were penalised as well. Processor wanted lighter carcasses but then the grading of these cattle penalised them. A bullock or heifer that graded O=/O+ at 400+DW was not a P or O- at 330DW. It was immaterial to processor's what the grade was as they were putting them on trays for the retailer's.

    As well as that Cows and Bulls that there was no bonus for were penalised as well if not QA and that was if they would slaughter them. Less than 20% of cattle slaughtered qualified for QA.

    Where does the less than 20% figure come from out of interest?


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    #8
    kk.man
    Registered Users Posts: 3,426 ✭✭✭kk.man


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    There was a lot of nativity on both sides. However by far the biggest nativity was on the processor and large finisher side. Loads of so called experts have been proven wrong.
    While some of Beefplans thinking was not realistic mainly there price talking of 4.5/kg. Processor and large finisher's have created a mess for themselves.

    For processors a light has been shone on there businesses that will be hard to turn off. 30 month limit and predatory pricing on certain animal types mainly bulls will put pressure on them to change these tactics.

    Another issue for them is VAT on there own feedlots and larger finisher's killing over 1k cattle / year. If we assume that these finisher's kill over 100k/year if the law changes it will cost them 5-7 million euros and that is at present prices when prices rise you can add another million to that.

    Generic producer groups have been approved and thus will force up prices and facilitate forward pricing especially for winter and early summer cattle. And Wrangler I know according to you they existed already but these are a totally different beast to your idea of a PG. As well we may see the HR and AA PG's able to negotiate national base prices

    Processors as well face the problem that Courts and the law is not an option to stop/manage these strikes/protests. Farmers will not be reluctant to go again and from now on will insist on negotiation while pickets are in place. As well contrary to some experts here chill room's only stay full for so long. I was sick of telling lads that meat can only stay in a chill room for 3-4 weeks max after that there is only a week on the supermarket shelf. As well you cannot replace 30k + of cattle with Polish it any other beef and processing space is also an issue.

    The new Beef Forum will be more farmer friendly and will side more with farmers than if processor's had behaved after the first part of the protest. The Government will not want a rehash of this during an election next year and the sword of VAT and maybe labour rules may be held over the processor's.

    While no side can claim an outright victory the farmers have changed the rules of the game.
    Great post.

    I said it before had Mll threw a few crumbs to the farmer at the beginning instead of the 'Ulster Unionist' no ...to everything they might have got away with a few days protest. The missed judged the farmer anger. One procurement manager said to me the IFA only stayed a few days and we got an agreement. I was quick to tell them you tried to walk on the IFAs grave by withdrawing their subs when they were down.

    I do agree that this strike is a watershed moment by turning a light on. This new beef advisory group better not be a beef forum mark two or else these guys will be back on the gates.


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    #9
    K.G.
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,037 Mod ✭✭✭✭K.G.


    I can't figure out why lads are so anxious to stay in the beef game.factories screwing them, bord bia screwing them,politicians screwing them,media screwing them,climate change screwing them,supermarkets screwing them,revenue screwing them,other farmers screwing them.and the other s##t that goes wrong in farming as well.why would you bother


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    #10
    kk.man
    Registered Users Posts: 3,426 ✭✭✭kk.man


    Looks like Liffey has broke from the crowd...the Mll must be ragging. I have never saw a divide like that before.


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    #11
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,117 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    What would you suggest? This is the farming most of them know and there aren't many other options out there, especially for poorer land.
    Below cost is just, not on. The milk processors are now looking at the same trick. Even though market improved their still dropping the price.
    The other problem is, even if the suckler herd is dramatically downsized, which looks likely, a lot of the calves coming off the dairy herd are not suitable for beef, despite Teagasc nonsense.
    If the calves from the dairy herd were suitable, it would be a fix.

    KK Man, that was my original game plan and hope, that one or two players would agree. They did float €3.75 but were quickly shot down. The offal issue must be first item on the agenda.


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    #12
    PhilOssophy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    After all the protest, did the beef farmers get anything? I stopped following a while back?


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    #13
    coolshannagh28
    Registered Users Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭coolshannagh28


    kk.man wrote: »
    Looks like Liffey has broke from the crowd...the Mll must be ragging. I have never saw a divide like that before.

    This will have been the greatest achievement , divide them and create genuine competition .


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    #14
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,117 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Yes, stopped the race down to €3.20.
    No organisation who claim to represent farmers will sign off on a deal without genuine farmer consultation.
    A light has been shone on this industry and the stranglehold one person has on it, facilitated by Govn't.


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    #15
    Panch18
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭Panch18


    PhilOssophy wrote: »
    After all the protest, did the beef farmers get anything? I stopped following a while back?

    No - they got nothing


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    #16
    longgonesilver
    Registered Users Posts: 734 ✭✭✭longgonesilver


    PhilOssophy wrote: »
    After all the protest, did the beef farmers get anything? I stopped following a while back?

    Small financial gain, maybe.

    Plenty of promises. Some might work out.

    Biggest gain is in public opinion, the issues are now public, support from a lot of people outside agriculture.

    An example here from last Fridays Irish Examiner.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/arguments-against-beef-not-fleshed-out-951837.html


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    #17
    whelan2
    Registered Users Posts: 29,082 ✭✭✭✭whelan2


    Aibp on 3 45 and 3.55


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    #18
    Anto_Meath
    Registered Users Posts: 1,302 ✭✭✭Anto_Meath


    Ah they did get a bit of an increase with the QA bonus and there is an agreement there that could help improve the position over all. I think they have probably highlight the corruptness of the industry, now it could be a few years away but this will cause MII to think before the try to hammer the farmers again. They have a nice little arrangement with the VAT rebate going that they wouldn't want too much focus on so I thinking they will be keeping prices around €3.50 and above.


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    #19
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,058 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    whelan2 wrote: »
    Aibp on 3 45 and 3.55

    I was thinking the main three won't move.
    Are they killing yet


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    #20
    Base price
    Registered Users Posts: 11,137 ✭✭✭✭Base price


    Panch18 wrote: »
    No - they got nothing
    Now in fairness I wouldn't say that. The original agreement got O-4+ cattle included on the grid which suit finishers.


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    #21
    aido79
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 5,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭aido79


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    There was a lot of nativity on both sides. However by far the biggest nativity was on the processor and large finisher side.

    A bit early to be thinking about Xmas...


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    #22
    Base price
    Registered Users Posts: 11,137 ✭✭✭✭Base price


    wrangler wrote: »
    I was thinking the main three won't move.
    Are they killing yet
    I haven't heard any quotes from the main three (as you call them) but I would be surprised if they increased prices considering the backlog of cattle. AFAIK the independent's that weren't blockaded haven't changed their prices.


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    #23
    Base price
    Registered Users Posts: 11,137 ✭✭✭✭Base price


    aido79 wrote: »
    A bit early to be thinking about Xmas...
    Only saw that now :D


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    #24
    Panch18
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭Panch18


    Base price wrote: »
    Now in fairness I wouldn't say that. The original agreement got O-4+ cattle included on the grid which suit finishers.

    No you’re right I shouldn’t have said nothing

    That was an achievement to be fair and it would be incorrect of me to say otherwise


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    #25
    Muckit
    Registered Users Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Muckit


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    While no side can claim an outright victory the farmers have changed the rules of the game.

    A great post Bass, but victory isn't the correct term IMO. We weren't looking to win. If you pitch it like that it means there has to be a loser.

    We were looking for a DEAL. And by God we got one. And who knows, there may be more deals,to be done down the road.

    For a deal to be successful BOTH parties must walk away happy. Compromise must be shown by both sides.

    Whether we like it or not, we need the factories but we must continue to ensure that the factories remember .... THEY NEED US TOO!!


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    #26
    alps
    Registered Users Posts: 4,928 ✭✭✭alps


    Can someone please explain the "Vat Scam".? I've my head full of people trying to explain something they know absolute nothing about, didn't understand when they were being told about it, and have told the world and it's mother about it and so many other conspiracies..

    Base, can you have a go?


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    #27
    K.G.
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,037 Mod ✭✭✭✭K.G.


    Its amazing i see as the processor in complete control from start to finish of the blockades even still they are showing control and others see it completely different. Blockades weakness is that they are.illegal and once the factories had an injunction they are absolved from any contractual losses which liability passes onto the named people.injunctions had nothing to do with keeping factories open it was a way of closing them and sending cattle for a spin was all part of the process.therefore the factories could sit and wait. Which they did until creed begged them to give the farmer negotiaters a way out.make no mistake the factories were sitting pretty and under no pressure to come back to the table.every thing was in their favour and still is.but anyway i could be wrong


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    #28
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,058 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    Muckit wrote: »
    A great post Bass, but victory isn't the correct term IMO. We weren't looking to win. If you pitch it like that it means there has to be a loser.

    We were looking for a DEAL. And by God we got one. And who knows, there may be more deals,to be done down the road.

    For a deal to be successful BOTH parties must walk away happy. Compromise must be shown by both sides.

    Whether we like it or not, we need the factories but we must continue to ensure that the factories remember .... THEY NEED US TOO!!

    We'll see how it works out, they're still our customers


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    #29
    Cavanjack
    Registered Users Posts: 2,542 ✭✭✭Cavanjack


    Why does Larry control the offal anyway? Can none of the rest of them build a plant to deal with it?


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    #30
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,058 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    K.G. wrote: »
    Its amazing i see as the processor in complete control from start to finish of the blockades even still they are showing control and others see it completely different. Blockades weakness is that they are.illegal and once the factories had an injunction they are absolved from any contractual losses which liability passes onto the named people.injunctions had nothing to do with keeping factories open it was a way of closing them and sending cattle for a spin was all part of the process.therefore the factories could sit and wait. Which they did until creed begged them to give the farmer negotiaters a way out.make no mistake the factories were sitting pretty and under no pressure to come back to the table.every thing was in their favour and still is.but anyway i could be wrong

    I was wondering why they didn't enforce the injunctions alright.


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    #31
    Base price
    Registered Users Posts: 11,137 ✭✭✭✭Base price


    Panch18 wrote: »
    No you’re right I shouldn’t have said nothing

    That was an achievement to be fair and it would be incorrect of me to say otherwise
    TBH I hoped that these talks would have insisted that our certified independent verification body (NSAI) be appointed to oversee the VIA's (video imagining analysis) system that is used to grade our cattle in Irish meat factories. It has been a thorn in my side for several years. Unfortunately it doesn't appear to be included in the recent agreement.
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96839559&postcount=134
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=96839559


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