The End for Youghal?

Jem72 · 18-01-2019 10:29am

That sounds pretty expensive - Mullingar to Athlone was supposed to have cost around 8 million for 42km. And it's finished to a pretty high standard - proper tarmac at about the width of a minor road.

I love greenways and trails - I've walked the entire Royal Canal before this craze even started and I've done other routes such as the Miner's Way in Leitrim. As a low-cost tourist attraction, greenways are a great attraction. The older routes like the Miner's Way were done for minimal costs - measured in thousands per kilometre but it gets hard to justify the investment when the costs are approaching a million a kilometre.

I personally think a lot of these greenways are being overbuilt. Athlone - Mullingar definitely is. The majority of people on them are either runners or families cycling and these people would prefer a rolled grit surface over finished tarma. For runners, it's easier on the body and for families, it slows down the club cyclists and improves safety.

Markcheese · 18-01-2019 1:11pm

Isambard wrote: »

yes I agree, but if they can run a LUAS through the centre of DUblin surely it must be relativley simple to devise shared use of the trackbed. One mode doesn't exclude the other as shown on other Greenways shared with railways. You shouldn't even need a dividing fence by rights. Hell, in places they have massive freight trains passing along the main streets of towns (USA for instance)

True, but if I was walking for leisure with small kids, I'd feel a lot more comfortable if there was a fence... Just to stop them doing something stupid...

Isambard · 18-01-2019 5:31pm

It would put your mind at rest no doubt, but if that was the case the LUAS should be fenced in.

schemingbohemia · 18-01-2019 5:44pm

Don't think there have been any issues in Waterford when the Heritage Train is running during the summer, it's not fenced off either.

whisky_galore · 18-01-2019 6:13pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Well they're already looking at turning the old Blackrock line in Cork (a path for decades) into a joint tram way and greenway...
It does add complication though...

They have been 'looking at' developing Cork public transport since the 1970s, that's a hell of a lot of 'looking at' with minimal results.

Isambard · 18-01-2019 6:40pm

where's the problem?

Lord Glentoran · 18-01-2019 7:20pm

Isambard wrote: »

where's the problem?

A 25 mph speed limit.

Isambard · 18-01-2019 7:56pm

that's because it's a Light Railway not because of the footpath. I don't imagine the Youghal line or any other IE line would be a Light Railway.

no.8 · 19-01-2019 12:25am

Jem72 wrote:

I personally think a lot of these greenways are being overbuilt. Athlone - Mullingar definitely is. The majority of people on them are either runners or families cycling and these people would prefer a rolled grit surface over finished tarma. For runners, it's easier on the body and for families, it slows down the club cyclists and improves safety.

Agree fully will this one. Most children learn to cycle on small mountain bikes and quite a range of buggies are built for these paths. While ideal for normal wheelchairs, they do look more natural in the environment

Cork Trucker · 19-01-2019 10:00am

Isambard wrote: »

where's the problem?

I was around when the Youghal train last ran, i just don't remember it, and since the track was lifted i only have photos as a reference on how wide it actually was.

Was it double or single gauge?

As per your photo, that would be a satisfactory outcome for all involved i think bar a few who are getting heard more as Irish Rail wants it that way.

The way it is proposed to build the Greenway is so that it can be quickly reverted to use for rail, now i don't smoke, but whoever is saying this is on the funny stuff, can you imagine the attempts to restore the railway if this goes ahead and is in use for say 10 years? C'mon, people who say it can be reverted to railway are on drugs not just for saying this, but also the costs involved which are lunacy. Also the Youghal Station building has a fine crack on the rear of it.

Isambard · 19-01-2019 10:06am

as far as I can see, the trackbed is likely to be leased and the alternative to having a shared route ,if ever it is required, would be Railway, and no Greeenway.

The picture shows what is possible as an even-handed solution

Cork Trucker · 19-01-2019 12:13pm

Isambard wrote: »

as far as I can see, the trackbed is likely to be leased and the alternative to having a shared route ,if ever it is required, would be Railway, and no Greeenway.

The picture shows what is possible as an even-handed solution

Is picture common practice in the UK?

If the greenway breaks ground then that is it.

Is there any shared route further up the country? i know little else of railway up the country

L1011 · 19-01-2019 12:19pm

Borders Railway took back paths that had been built on its trackbed. It's a plain lie to state that Greenways can't be converted back and it's usually based on the "but but but Comber" arguement - where the project was cancelled entirely for cost reasons instead

Lord Glentoran · 19-01-2019 3:29pm

L1011 wrote: »

Borders Railway took back paths that had been built on its trackbed. It's a plain lie to state that Greenways can't be converted back and it's usually based on the "but but but Comber" arguement - where the project was cancelled entirely for cost reasons instead

Big difference between “can’t” and “won’t”. Also, the Comber situation can be googled very easily.

Lord Glentoran · 19-01-2019 3:57pm

Isambard wrote: »

yes I agree, but if they can run a LUAS through the centre of DUblin surely it must be relativley simple to devise shared use of the trackbed. One mode doesn't exclude the other as shown on other Greenways shared with railways. You shouldn't even need a dividing fence by rights. Hell, in places they have massive freight trains passing along the main streets of towns (USA for instance)

What is the rail speed limit on Wexford Quays?

L1011 · 19-01-2019 6:44pm

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Big difference between “can’t” and “won’t”. Also, the Comber situation can be googled very easily.

And it appears that most people who Google it get the completely wrong impression. And use it as a justification to lie

Lord Glentoran · 19-01-2019 7:09pm

L1011 wrote: »

And it appears that most people who Google it get the completely wrong impression. And use it as a justification to lie

So, cycling campaigners didn’t make submissions to politicians saying that putting PT on the Comber Greenway was removing a facility?

Lord Glentoran · 19-01-2019 7:17pm

Lies, apparently https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/mla-purvis-hits-out-at-comber-greenway-proposal-at-stormont-28450474.html

L1011 · 20-01-2019 2:09pm

They made submissions. It isn't why it didn't go ahead. And yet as the only vaguely related example it gets referenced over and over again

road_high · 20-01-2019 2:27pm

I despair with all these bloody Greenways- a perfect cop out for the state to tar over abandoned routes. It won’t stop there, next the Waterford Wexford line will be ripped up for another of these follies. It’s the latest stupid craze in Ireland. Youghal should be reopened to take traffic off the N25- as a railway line.

Cork Trucker · 20-01-2019 3:19pm

road_high wrote: »

Youghal should be reopened to take traffic off the N25- as a railway line.

People appear to overlook this fact as they would rather spend endless time welded to their cars stuck in traffic.

A train from Youghal to Kent station would take far less time than a car doing the same journey at peak times.

no.8 · 20-01-2019 4:52pm

road_high wrote:

I despair with all these bloody Greenways- a perfect cop out for the state to tar over abandoned routes. It wonâ€™t stop there, next the Waterford Wexford line will be ripped up for another of these follies. Itâ€™s the latest stupid craze in Ireland. Youghal should be reopened to take traffic off the N25- as a railway line.

I understand the frustrations with ripping up old railway routes but having a go at the fundamental ideas behind Greenways is not the way to go imo. Up to recently, we had hopeless infrastructure in so far as safe separated / off-road cycling and walking routes suitable for the masses. Yes, people are welded to their cars, but the clannish land ownership rules contribute as well. I'd love if they simply bought a strip of land parallel to the railway line / corridor and worked with that.

road_high · 20-01-2019 5:34pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

People appear to overlook this fact as they would rather spent endless time welded to their cars stuck in traffic.

A train from Youghal to Kent station would take far less time than a car doing the same journey at peak times.

You could have a park and ride facility in Youghal or near the N25 that could serve west Waterford and east cork commuters into cork city. Irish rail just aren’t interested as Barry Kenny said on the matter. I think it’s another lost opportunity

hans aus dtschl · 21-01-2019 9:57am

road_high wrote: »

You could have a park and ride facility in Youghal or near the N25 that could serve west Waterford and east cork commuters into cork city. Irish rail just aren’t interested as Barry Kenny said on the matter. I think it’s another lost opportunity

But it doesn't actually work like that though: once people get into their cars the incentive to use public transport for a section of their journey drops away completely. Just look at Glounthaune, Little Island, Carrigtwohill and Midleton train stations where the car parks are never filled.

I would love for Youghal to have a rail connection to Cork, but if there wasn't a pre-existing trackbed nobody in their right mind would be proposing one as the business case is quite weak.

Barry Kenny and Irish Rail have far better investment options within the Cork area, Youghal is nowhere near the top of their list.

And to state once again for the people who are saying that rail and greenway can't coexist side by side, I think you urgently need to explain this to Cork CoCo and the NTA whose plans include a greenway and railway side by side from Glounthaune to Midleton.

loyatemu · 21-01-2019 10:18am

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

And to state once again for the people who are saying that rail and greenway can't coexist side by side, I think you urgently need to explain this to Cork CoCo and the NTA whose plans include a greenway and railway side by side from Glounthaune to Midleton.

there are also plans for a greenway alongside the railway between Wicklow and Greystones.

https://eastcoastgreenway.ie/ (though I assume/hope the finished plan will be less landscaped than their terrible artists impression).

Cork Trucker · 21-01-2019 12:09pm

road_high wrote: »

You could have a park and ride facility in Youghal or near the N25 that could serve west Waterford and east cork commuters into cork city. Irish rail just aren’t interested as Barry Kenny said on the matter. I think it’s another lost opportunity

A P&R would be feasible there no doubt.

Operating from say somewhere around the Grange/Kiely's cross area to the car park adjacent to the beach.

Barry Kenny would have his hands tied though if the NTA came along and said right this is happening, if they did then Irish Rail would be forced to do so.

What have they shown the NTA to say they are staying quiet.

Outkast_IRE · 21-01-2019 12:15pm

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

But it doesn't actually work like that though: once people get into their cars the incentive to use public transport for a section of their journey drops away completely. Just look at Glounthaune, Little Island, Carrigtwohill and Midleton train stations where the car parks are never filled.

I would love for Youghal to have a rail connection to Cork, but if there wasn't a pre-existing trackbed nobody in their right mind would be proposing one as the business case is quite weak.

Barry Kenny and Irish Rail have far better investment options within the Cork area, Youghal is nowhere near the top of their list.

And to state once again for the people who are saying that rail and greenway can't coexist side by side, I think you urgently need to explain this to Cork CoCo and the NTA whose plans include a greenway and railway side by side from Glounthaune to Midleton.

I use the train from little island and glounthane and the car parks are pretty full if not overflowing now most working days. The little island car park was designed by an idiot though and is not fit for purpose with inadequate clearances and turning circles.

There are lots of east cork commuters using this service and it is actually getting busier with each passing month.

If the council's had any sense they would expand one of the carparks and heavily promote it as an eastern park and ride

hans aus dtschl · 21-01-2019 12:50pm

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

I use the train from little island and glounthane and the car parks are pretty full if not overflowing now most working days. The little island car park was designed by an idiot though and is not fit for purpose with inadequate clearances and turning circles.

There are lots of east cork commuters using this service and it is actually getting busier with each passing month.

If the council's had any sense they would expand one of the carparks and heavily promote it as an eastern park and ride

They're pretty full most days, but they're not yet at capacity was my point,
there's still ample parking on the road (Glounthaune) and in the car park (Little Island) as it stands. It's a fantastic service and I do hope they extend it. But you're talking about around 50 and 100 daily cars respectively right now.

My point was simply that a park and ride at Youghal won't be a definitive east Cork traffic cure/resolution as it stands, instead an all-encompassing transport strategy is what's needed. Such strategies nowadays all focus first on pedestrians, second on cyclists, third on public transport and finally on private motor vehicles.

But I agree with you fully, if the county council was anything other than totally car-oriented they'd be all over this. They don't care though. I can tell you from my meetings with them over the years that they have very little idea of pedestrian, cyclist or public transport requirements. They're only interested in providing for cars and trucks.

Markcheese · 21-01-2019 1:36pm

I think it's a bit of a sham, that there's no park and ride / transfer station at dunkettle, its probably the biggest transport hub /junction in Cork, and you can't get a bus or train there, anyway it won't happen, because it'd get in the way of the new junction that being built...

Cork Trucker · 21-01-2019 1:42pm

Markcheese wrote: »

I think it's a bit of a sham, that there's no park and ride / transfer station at dunkettle, its probably the biggest transport hub /junction in Cork, and you can't get a bus or train there, anyway it won't happen, because it'd get in the way of the new junction that being built...

Posted this over on the relevant thread

https://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Dunkettle-Interchange-upgrade-hit-140280a0-cf66-4474-9f33-e316beee1591-ds

whisky_galore · 21-01-2019 2:46pm

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

I use the train from little island and glounthane and the car parks are pretty full if not overflowing now most working days. The little island car park was designed by an idiot though and is not fit for purpose with inadequate clearances and turning circles.

There are lots of east cork commuters using this service and it is actually getting busier with each passing month.

If the council's had any sense they would expand one of the carparks and heavily promote it as an eastern park and ride

That one is very poorly designed, reminds me of those Matchbox car garage playsets with the parking spaces on the roof. Only the very smallest cars can get around it without hopping a kerb.

ArmaniJeanss · 21-01-2019 3:18pm

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

They're pretty full most days, but they're not yet at capacity was my point,

I'd have thought a p&r being used at full capacity would be a bad thing.
It's better for it always to be slightly bigger than what's needed than slightly smaller.

hans aus dtschl · 21-01-2019 3:54pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I'd have thought a p&r being used at full capacity would be a bad thing.
It's better for it always to be slightly bigger than what's needed than slightly smaller.

That's somewhat beside the point.

The point...once again....was that a park and ride at Youghal won't be a definitive east Cork traffic cure/resolution as it stands, instead an all-encompassing transport strategy is what's needed.
Such strategies nowadays all focus first on pedestrians, second on cyclists, third on public transport and finally on private motor vehicles.

Look we can discuss how much we'd all like to see rail to Youghal, and we can all be sincere about it too. But there's a number of reasons that the greenway is the correct medium-term choice as it stands.

in its favour:
Train at Youghal won't take significant volumes of traffic off the east Cork corridor as it stands. (the point we're currently discussing, in terms of P&R facilities)
Low population density along the line means it's not on Irish Rail's long list of works, because they don't see it as being as financially viable as other projects.
Greenway (pedestrian/cycling) and green transport strategies are low-cost and high-return (it's an easy project with some known return on investment).
The money and political will is available right now (it's a fast project which can be completed soon).
The alignment's already had encroachment (a flimsy argument, but Irish Rail have not been protecting the line to date).
It progresses the previously-published transport strategies for the East Cork area a small bit further.

Against it is the following:
We'd like to have an active east Cork rail corridor (for which there is currently no money or significant political will).
The proposed greenway might prevent future rail (this has not been proven).

marno21 · 26-06-2019 1:31pm

€8m provided in funding for the Greenway.

https://twitter.com/LeoVaradkar/status/1143165753421717506

Greenway it is then.

jimmythedivil · 26-06-2019 1:35pm

As nice as the greenways are, some of these old railway lines could have been used today. Always thought it was a shame the Passage line never reopened, especially as Passage has now become a largely populated area.

Cork Trucker · 26-06-2019 1:52pm

marno21 wrote: »

€8m provided in funding for the Greenway.

https://twitter.com/LeoVaradkar/status/1143165753421717506

Greenway it is then.

Fcuking disgusted :mad:

Markcheese · 26-06-2019 3:18pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Fcuking disgusted :mad:

Yup, so am I, theyre only giving 8 million of a 15 million build cost...

Markcheese · 26-06-2019 3:21pm

jimmythedivil wrote: »

As nice as the greenways are, some of these old railway lines could have been used today. Always thought it was a shame the Passage line never reopened, especially as Passage has now become a largely populated area.

Ironically passage is really close to a commuter rail line, if only they'd provide a couple of pedestrian ferries across from passage west to train stations on the other side..

Cork Trucker · 26-06-2019 4:04pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Yup, so am I, theyre only giving 8 million of a 15 million build cost...

i believe we are disgusted for very different reasons.

Markcheese · 26-06-2019 7:21pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

i believe we are disgusted for very different reasons.

I think you're right,
(although if I got the chance I'd put another station out past midleton, as near to the n25 as possible, with a park and ride..

Cork Trucker · 26-06-2019 7:36pm

Markcheese wrote: »

I think you're right,
(although if I got the chance I'd put another station out past midleton, as near to the n25 as possible, with a park and ride..

There's a bit of land on the Mogeely to Castlemartyr road that could accommodate this, then if you are that close to Killeagh the argument for their station would come up.

Quackster · 26-06-2019 7:47pm

jimmythedivil wrote: »

As nice as the greenways are, some of these old railway lines could have been used today. Always thought it was a shame the Passage line never reopened, especially as Passage has now become a largely populated area.

It would make sense to use the alignment as part of an east/west cross-city tram line between Ballincollig and Passage.

I personally don't see the viability of reopening the rail line to Youghal at any time in the foreseeable future, due the potential catchment population size and distance from the existing line, so am delighted that the greenway is progressing.

Itssoeasy · 26-06-2019 7:50pm

Well the people of youghal when it dawns on them what they’ve given away and they come crying about being isolated transport wise can feck off.

hans aus dtschl · 26-06-2019 9:06pm

Quackster wrote: »

It would make sense to use the alignment as part of an east/west cross-city tram line between Ballincollig and Passage.

I personally don't see the viability of reopening the rail line to Youghal at any time in the foreseeable future, due the potential catchment population size and distance from the existing line, so am delighted that the greenway is progressing.

That's exactly it. This is a case of a perfect dream meeting an imperfect reality for some people.
I will wholeheartedly campaign for Midleton to Mogeely rail extension if the local development plans start looking at developing Mogeely. But let's acknowledge that even with no greenway this is not on IÉ's radar or Cork County Council's radar whatsoever right now.

Also, the long term plan is for BOTH greenway and rail line all the way from Dunkettle to Youghal. Widening the alignment will be easier if it's actually in-use rather than encroached upon. I would still like to see this happen.

Cork Trucker · 26-06-2019 10:39pm

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Also, the long term plan is for BOTH greenway and rail line all the way from Dunkettle to Youghal. Widening the alignment will be easier if it's actually in-use rather than encroached upon. I would still like to see this happen.

This is the Green Party proposal as well believe it or not. I actually backed them on it when they held a meeting in Youghal a while back, the N25 is a disaster, the railway line once incentivised would have helped ease congestion over time, especially with one or two P&R's thrown into the mix.

hans aus dtschl · 27-06-2019 10:57am

Cork Trucker wrote: »

This is the Green Party proposal as well believe it or not. I actually backed them on it when they held a meeting in Youghal a while back, the N25 is a disaster, the railway line once incentivised would have helped ease congestion over time, especially with one or two P&R's thrown into the mix.

I can tell you that they were quite actively engaged in trying to get the greenway blocked.
I can not tell you that they're quite as actively engaged in getting the Inter-Urban cycle route completed: I have no evidence of that to date. An under-designed western section at Dunkettle is currently going to build.

Cork Trucker · 27-06-2019 11:00am

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I can tell you that they were quite actively engaged in trying to get the greenway blocked.
I can not tell you that they're quite as actively engaged in getting the Inter-Urban cycle route completed: I have no evidence of that to date. An under-designed western section at Dunkettle is currently going to build.

Even they know that once this railway is tarred over then that is it for the railway forever. Side by side with the railway no problem, The Dunkettle interchange will be an interesting one when it happens.

hans aus dtschl · 27-06-2019 11:06am

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Even they know that once this railway is tarred over then that is it for the railway forever. Side by side with the railway no problem

Like the Blackrock one?

hans aus dtschl · 27-06-2019 11:08am

Cork Trucker wrote: »

The Dunkettle interchange will be an interesting one when it happens.

I'm looking forward to it being completed as a car driver.
Not so much as a cyclist: I'll try and avoid cycling anywhere near the new design.

In the words of one of the engineers responsible for designing it: "hopefully nobody will use it".

Cork Trucker · 27-06-2019 11:12am

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Like the Blackrock one?

The Blackrock one may become a LUAS line in the future. The West Cork Line is evidence of how not to do it.

The End for Youghal?

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