The decline continues

expectationlost · 30-12-2017 1:25am

Micheál Martin: Legislation being developed to support 'independent, mainstream, factual, objective-based media' http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/micheal-martin-legislation-being-developed-to-support-independent-mainstream-factual-objective-based-media-465033.html

"We are coming up with legislation to create a system whereby the newsprint industry would be supported by taxpayers"

what has newsprint got to do with facts and objectivity?

Loafing Oaf · 30-12-2017 10:46am

expectationlost wrote: »

Micheál Martin: Legislation being developed to support 'independent, mainstream, factual, objective-based media' http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/micheal-martin-legislation-being-developed-to-support-independent-mainstream-factual-objective-based-media-465033.html

"We are coming up with legislation to create a system whereby the newsprint industry would be supported by taxpayers"

what has newsprint got to do with facts and obejctivity?

Yeah, give taxpayers' money to online journalism and you'll be supporting the environment as well...

IRE60 · 22-02-2018 4:04pm

Released just today ABC for July/Dec - edited highlights

Sunday Independent 178,323 -6.9%
Sunday World 133,946 -10.5%
Sunday Business Post 29,619 -2.9%

Irish Independent 90,107 -7.2%
Irish Times 61,049 -7.9%
Examiner 27,589 -8.3%

Market still down 7% p.a - not a sustainable business model

JTMan · 24-02-2018 10:57am

IRE60 wrote: »

not a sustainable business model

Agreed but what is next? Year after year we are seeing 7% declines. In any other industry there would have been mass bankruptcies by now but not the newspaper industry.

What next? Does INM ditch the Herald, Irish Daily Star or Sunday World? Does The Irish Times shut down some of the Landmark Media Investments regionals? Do a few more regionals go belly up? Do some UK newspapers stop distributing in Ireland? Do some UK newspapers stop Irish version? or does the status quo limp on for another few years before we start to see end game play out?

I want answers

Loafing Oaf · 24-02-2018 11:30am

JTMan wrote: »

Agreed but what is next? Year after year we are seeing 7% declines. In any other industry there would have been mass bankruptcies by now but not the newspaper industry.

Yeah, if I had been asked to prognosticate on the future of the industry ten years ago, I would have been 100% sure the Examiner and the SBP would have been long gone before circulation fell below 30K. But they all somehow keep on trucking...

mrsdewinter · 24-02-2018 11:32am

IRE60 wrote: »

Released just today ABC for July/Dec - edited highlights

Sunday Independent 178,323 -6.9%
Sunday World 133,946 -10.5%
Sunday Business Post 29,619 -2.9%

Irish Independent 90,107 -7.2%
Irish Times 61,049 -7.9%
Examiner 27,589 -8.3%

Market still down 7% p.a - not a sustainable business model

Thanks for that - where can I check out the full list?

JTMan · 24-02-2018 11:35am

mrsdewinter wrote: »

Thanks for that - where can I check out the full list?

Check out IE60's signature

Skedaddle · 24-02-2018 11:42am

It would actually be very helpful if some of the UK papers stopped producing Irish versions. They're providing relatively little original content but eating into a rapidly shrinking pie.

The newspaper business is very quickly rolling towards extinction by the looks of the trends and none of them have really made a viable business online. They have the content but don't know how to make that work online. Even the Guardian has huge online presence but seems to be struggling to make that into a serious business.

What's interesting in Ireland is thejournal.ie effectively and successfully duplicated the old print media model. Distilled Media owns Daft, by far and away the biggest property website in Ireland. Its starting look very like the traditional Irish print media setup of a company funded by property ads.

If it grows in terms of producing good journalism and putting big resources in, it's likely to morph into a very serious news and dominant outlet in this market. I know people are quite dismissive of it because its early days were all about content with very limited resources, but it has big potential.

IRE60 · 24-02-2018 1:22pm

JTMan wrote: »

Check out IE60's signature

on the advice of council..............:eek:

IRE60 · 24-02-2018 1:46pm

A few bits pertaining to the above:

On IN&M: Personally I think the potential sale of the titles owned by Northern Shell to Trinity may well spell the end of the ownership of the Daily Star by IN&M. The Overlords on Talbot St are delusional of they think The Herald can fill that gap should the DS fold. Their delusions are not limited to that topic I hasten to add.

The SPB is a profitable enterprise – circulation is small, but so are the overheads.

I’ll not be drawn on the whole ‘British titles’ think (see above ‘delusional’). The vast majority of papers published here are done under an Irish incorporates company.

Which seaways nicely: is IN&M and Irish company – certainly incorporated here, but glance at the share register – what % of the shareholding is ‘Irish’ – so it’s a sticky topic.

At the end of the day in the morning market, 47% papers sold are ‘British’ titles (galls me to phrase it that way). My conclusion is that half the Moring buying market don’t get what they want from ‘Irish Newspapers’ and have to fall into the arms of Jonny Foreigners!

Another thing: If the main national titles didn’t exist – then neither would the journal.ie. I can’t remember when the journal ever ‘’broke a story’. If anyone can – please speak up.

JTMan · 24-02-2018 2:12pm

IRE60 wrote: »

On IN&M: Personally I think the potential sale of the titles owned by Northern Shell to Trinity may well spell the end of the ownership of the Daily Star by IN&M. The Overlords on Talbot St are delusional of they think The Herald can fill that gap should the DS fold. Their delusions are not limited to that topic I hasten to add.

Independent Star is still profitable. INM get some nice money from Independent Star for publishing (several million) and via dividends. Independent Star supplies content for The Herald and Sunday World. INM gives money to Independent Star. Indepenent Star gives money to INM. They are married at the hips. Nobody wins if Indepenent Star fails. Not yet anyway.

It's possible that The Irish Daily Star, The Herald and the Sunday World could all simultaneously go as part of a INM 'focus on core titles' restructure. I think it still could be 3 years away from happening.

IRE60 wrote: »

The SPB is a profitable enterprise – circulation is small, but so are the overheads.

The big question is who will buy the SBP which is up for sale and the SBP is subject to the same headwinds as the newspaper industry as a whole.

IRE60 wrote: »

Another thing: If the main national titles didn’t exist – then neither would the journal.ie. I can’t remember when the journal ever ‘’broke a story’. If anyone can – please speak up.

Absolutely. Very little original content is generated by Journal.ie. Not none but very little. In some senses, the small players need the big players for content.

L1011 · 24-02-2018 10:23pm

SBP has the albatross of the printing plant, does it not?

Its profitable due to a VERY specific audience to advertise to* - I suspect I'm the poorest person to buy it weekly :pac: and it has probably the least terrible trend in readership of the lot of them. But even that can't last forever.

*AB, not even C1; and domestic tech industry.

JTMan · 25-02-2018 12:08pm

SBP reports that INM is going to introduce a paywall for certain content. Difficult see more than a handful of people paying for Indo content online.

Skedaddle · 25-02-2018 12:28pm

The problem with a paywall is unless you're a highly specialised publication like the Financial Times, people will just Google for the story from another source.

Also these things usually require setting up accounts and entering payment details. That almost invariably results in casual readers just wandering off.

It won't work and it will likely drive traffic elsewhere eg The Journal, into social media and even the likes of RTE.ie

expectationlost · 26-02-2018 1:21am

following the telegraphs example... https://www.businesspost.ie/news/inm-looks-introducing-paywall-410158 they have a datawall on their opinion columns I'd be happy to see those trolls behind a paywall

IRE60 · 05-03-2018 10:01am

JTMan wrote: »

Absolutely. Very little original content is generated by Journal.ie. Not none but very little. In some senses, the small players need the big players for content.

I see Susan throwing the toys over the lack of air time:
Check out @BiddyEarly’;s Tweet: https://twitter.com/BiddyEarly/status/969847279011147776?s=09

What it says in the what.....

CeilingFly · 05-03-2018 3:35pm

IRE60 wrote: »

I see Susan throwing the toys over the lack of air time:
Check out @BiddyEarly’;s Tweet: https://twitter.com/BiddyEarly/status/969847279011147776?s=09

What it says in the what.....

Since when is "Thejournal" a news source?

A tittle tattle source, yes, a sensationalist hyteria source, yes, but "News", absolutely not.

expectationlost · 06-03-2018 2:52pm

IRE60 wrote: »

I see Susan throwing the toys over the lack of air time:
Check out @BiddyEarly’;s Tweet: https://twitter.com/BiddyEarly/status/969847279011147776?s=09

What it says in the what.....

the Times Ireland had the same complaint and I think RTE MI only started covering it when it started printing an Irish edition, its is literally called what it says in the papers...

JTMan · 10-03-2018 11:11am

The INM results are out:
- 32% decline in profits.
- Pitt given a whopping 1.5 million payoff.
- Staff down from 876 to 800.
- Digital revenue flat.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/media-and-marketing/inm-explores-digital-subscriptions-as-profits-plunge-32-1.3420883

- As I expected, as long as blood can be got from the 3 tabloids the show will continue ...

But INM, which also owns the Sunday World, the Herald and 50 per cent of the Irish Daily Star as well as several regional titles, “believes in print”, Mr Doorly said. “All our titles make a contribution, so we’re not planning the closure of any titles.”

expectationlost · 10-03-2018 12:37pm

decline ? News Ireland goes with new-look Times http://marketing.ie/news-ireland-goes-with-new-look-times/ any time I bought the paper Im amazed at the amount of English content, at times it felt like that was very little Irish content, maybe thats changed now, but adding more opinion columns isn't the way to impress me.

CeilingFly · 19-03-2018 1:17am

Love this
https://www.independent.ie/business/correction-and-apology-36718056.html

Indo can't get basic facts right. If it was a normal citizen, they'd probably ignore any appeal to correct the issue as it would mean a sensationalist headline being accepted as wrong.

Problem is this was in relation to Johnny Ronan who plays hard, but always plays fair.

And he has the wherewithal to challenge a hysterical sensationalist rag and get them to jump to his demands.

I reckon it has / will cost a few bob.

IRE60 · 24-03-2018 11:49pm

I always suspected this would not go away - so here we go!

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/media-and-marketing/odce-to-ask-high-court-to-appoint-inspectors-to-inm-1.3439528

And the article in the Indo today on lobbyists (aka Red Flag) describing Dobby as 'media and telecoms tycoon Denis O'Brien' - seriously!

Balance - the Indos article:

https://www.independent.ie/business/media/odce-seeks-inspectors-to-look-into-claims-at-inm-36741049.html

IRE60 · 28-03-2018 10:20am

I thought is was funny/ironic.

I got and email notification that Accountancy Ireland are leaving the ABC Circulation audit process!

Eveyone is jumping out of it!

IRE60 · 04-04-2018 10:53am

IRE60 wrote: »

I always suspected this would not go away - so here we go!

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/media-and-marketing/odce-to-ask-high-court-to-appoint-inspectors-to-inm-1.3439528

And the article in the Indo today on lobbyists (aka Red Flag) describing Dobby as 'media and telecoms tycoon Denis O'Brien' - seriously!

Balance - the Indos article:

https://www.independent.ie/business/media/odce-seeks-inspectors-to-look-into-claims-at-inm-36741049.html

And it didn't go away - It snowballed - Jesus that went south quick!

If you want a snapshot of the whats happening have a look at the #inm19 hastag on twitter. The great and the good are chiming in.

Bizarrely for the third day in a row SOR is not covering it - not a word.
It's embarrassing when some parts of the media sh1t down the side of their legs at the mere mention of some individuals. So much for the 'forth estate' (as quoted for the Press Ombudsman this morning on Morning Ireland - who decided to cover it).

Lease some still step up and point the finger.

There's a suggestion that it could be one of the biggest data breeches thus far in this country. Given one of the '19' had circa 40,000 emails interrogated that might be true.

expectationlost · 06-04-2018 10:27pm

CeilingFly wrote: »

Love this
https://www.independent.ie/business/correction-and-apology-36718056.html

Indo can't get basic facts right. If it was a normal citizen, they'd probably ignore any appeal to correct the issue as it would mean a sensationalist headline being accepted as wrong.

Problem is this was in relation to Johnny Ronan who plays hard, but always plays fair.

And he has the wherewithal to challenge a hysterical sensationalist rag and get them to jump to his demands.

I reckon it has / will cost a few bob.

can't find original article

IRE60 · 18-05-2018 12:14pm

The April ABC were released yesterday and there was an interesting turn of events. The Sunday Times dropped 4,000 over the previous month. It’s nothing to do with tinkering with bulks etc.

In April the Sunday Business Post had Sunday after Sunday at least two pages dedicated to the data story in INM. I make the leap that much of the 4,000 went to the SBP.

Just shows that while there is a decline in newspaper circulation, when there’s a decent story people will revert to type (literally).

Loafing Oaf · 18-05-2018 3:25pm

IRE60 wrote: »

The April ABC were released yesterday and there was an interesting turn of events. The Sunday Times dropped 4,000 over the previous month. It’s nothing to do with tinkering with bulks etc.

In April the Sunday Business Post had Sunday after Sunday at least two pages dedicated to the data story in INM. I make the leap that much of the 4,000 went to the SBP.

Just shows that while there is a decline in newspaper circulation, when there’s a decent story people will revert to type (literally).

Oirish Daily Mail and MoS falling 20% in the past year is the figure that jumps out at me.

IRE60 · 18-05-2018 3:50pm

I know the headline figure looks bleak - but its actually down to a change of policy here by the Daily Mail.
Last year the Daily and Sunday used the option to include 'bulks' in the circulation numbers - perfectly legit and all declared in their certificates each month.
As of January 2018 they stopped giving away free papers (aka the bulks) and therefore their circulation number has 'declined' as they are no longer included.

So, the year on year is a little 'off' as its comparing apples with apples with a few oranges thrown in!
My own analysis compares topline with topline and I did allude to it in the first three months to highlight that.
C

L1011 · 18-05-2018 8:28pm

The Sun appears to have increased bulks hugely from what I see lying around the place - is this reflected in the figures or have they just move stock around?

Worked somewhere that got 5 copies of the Mail FOC every day. One was read (consistently was read, by one person though). Suspect the JNRS still estimated whatever multiplier they apply to bulks for each one...

CeilingFly · 19-05-2018 12:53am

L1011 wrote: »

Worked somewhere that got 5 copies of the Mail FOC every day. One was read (consistently was read, by one person though). Suspect the JNRS still estimated whatever multiplier they apply to bulks for each one...

Quite laughable that "readership" is about 4 times circulation.

Does anyone believe that on average FOUR adults read each newspaper sold???

bogmanfan · 20-05-2018 10:31pm

CeilingFly wrote: »

Quite laughable that "readership" is about 4 times circulation.

Does anyone believe that on average FOUR adults read each newspaper sold???

More laughable again is the way that readership figures often climb even as circulation decreases! So those that are still buying papers must be sharing them with their family, colleagues, neighbours... It's incredible how JNRS continues to exist. Surely even the advertisers must know the figures are nonsense

IRE60 · 22-05-2018 12:23pm

The last JNRS was last released in 2014/15 and I get the impression that that will be the last one! I think that metric is a busted flush.

The sun has about 2,500 bulks ever month - on a total circulation of circa 57,000

IRE60 · 28-05-2018 6:27pm

Sunday Business Post publisher posts €520k pre-tax loss

https://www.independent.ie/business/media/sunday-business-post-publisher-posts-520k-pretax-loss-36953971.html

The article is light on detail - bar the 'shock' headline - probably motivated by the pasting the SBP gave IN&M over the data stories!

Still it's a fair chunk of change

IRE60 · 15-06-2018 12:55pm

The Irish Times finally given the nod to buy the Examiner et al

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/media-and-marketing/irish-times-cleared-to-buy-irish-examiner-1.3531759

IRE60 · 06-07-2018 4:18pm

Interesting - the CCPC are going top phase two investigation of Trinity's proposed takeover of the Daily Star et al.

https://www.ccpc.ie/business/ccpc-carry-phase-2-investigation-trinity-mirror-media-merger/

They are looking into the Irish Daily Star side only naturally. If they were to rule against the merger then there would be a whole heap of problems. Northern Shell would have to find a buyer for their 50% in I.S.L. - any takers?!

JTMan · 07-07-2018 12:56pm

Very interesting.

The UK acquisition has got the green light. So I guess that the Irish Daily Star is the only remaining asset of NS.

I would guess that the CPCC will approve but if they don't hard to see how INM would want the liability attached to owning 100% of Independent Star. I would guess that Independent Star would close if the CPCC did not approve.

L1011 · 10-07-2018 8:25pm

First major Irish magazines moving to digital only due to circulation pressure that I'm aware of - U and Tatler Man. Lots of more niche publications, particularly industry specific ones, have folded due to the internet destroying their reason to exist but not sure of anything of this scale?

JTMan · 10-07-2018 8:42pm

UK digital magazine subs are rather low. I would guess that Irish magazine digital paid subs are closed to zero.

Meanwhile, the Irish Times acquisition of Landmark Media (Examiner etc) is complete. https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/irish-times-complete-purchase-of-landmark-media-pledge-to-protect-identity-and-independence-of-titles-854228.html

jmcc · 13-07-2018 10:44am

L1011 wrote: »

First major Irish magazines moving to digital only due to circulation pressure that I'm aware of - U and Tatler Man. Lots of more niche publications, particularly industry specific ones, have folded due to the internet destroying their reason to exist but not sure of anything of this scale?

It is the old joke about making a small fortune in magazine publishing. (Start with a large one.). Magazine publishing in Ireland is very competitve as Irish magazines also compete with the Sundays, the lifestyle sections of various newspapers, and the UK magazines. The online market is probably more competitive for some of the magazines as it is very much multimedia rather than simple text and images.

Regards...jmcc

IRE60 · 19-07-2018 8:29pm

Interesting one here - and thought provoking. Article in the IT on the Examiners' holding company
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/media-and-marketing/irish-examiner-holding-company-reports-turnover-decline-1.3569231

The thing that got me was 414 people employed - the majority in production and no print plant. They must (I assume) do the pre-press for the regionals in their stable.

The 'economies of scale' (in a rapidly declining market, it would have to be said) the the Times bring to the table are not obvious, bar the print plant.

I heard a fella saying recently 'culture beats strategy every day' - Culturally its a step into the unknown for the Times - and the examiner. I think this is a marriage of convenience.

jmcc · 22-07-2018 2:47pm

Both the IT and Examiner have had declining sales for years. It does back up the marriage of convenience strategy but it can only end one way.

Regards...jmcc

expectationlost · 31-07-2018 2:10pm

Fianna Fail have published their forestry and soy plant subsidy plan https://www.fiannafail.ie/ff-proposes-state-intervention-to-secure-future-of-quality-journalism-dooley/# https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4623234-Print-Journalism-Proposals-July-2018.html#document/p1
it can't just be restricted to literally print journalism he must mean mostly text journalism, but its very much biased towards traditional newspaper publishers.

Timmy dooley says "Newspaper journalists research and fact check" which isn't accurate http://dublinstreams.blogspot.com/2017/08/if-genuine-news-orgs-dont-address-or.html

they want a snippet payment/neighbouring rights ( if you think there no incentive for people to bo beyond the snippet and view your advertising/paid for the article, then your article is crap) such a self defeating idea
funded by the vat revenue or 6% levy on digtial advertising (inlcuded that on newspapers sites?)

which go to support public interest reporting and busaries for journalists and diversity etc

JTMan · 31-07-2018 8:28pm

Total Madness.

From Twitter:
Fianna F are actually proposing that tax payers fund newspapers because they’re now obsolete. This is Fr. Ted levels of tragicomedy. What about the poor blacksmiths and thatchers?

L1011 · 01-08-2018 7:53am

Barefaced attempt to buy newspaper support before the next election. Don't think it'd be as valuable as the Indo in 97 no matter how strong it was though

Thatchers are in high demand and there are nowhere near enough! Conservation requirements and the odd company with weird ideas (Kepak) keep the demand up

expectationlost · 03-08-2018 2:19pm

heres a q, rather then this just about being paper versus online, is it text versus video/visual? (or even chosen to listen to more audio, whether thats radio or download?)

how any of you moved to watching more video _news_, do the kids these days? I mean for daily news from legit sources.

L1011 · 03-08-2018 9:35pm

Don't watch video news online at all. That initially virtually every provider of video news were cranks really hasn't helped.

JTMan · 17-08-2018 8:56pm

ABC UK magazine numbers points to further big drops in circulation. Numbers here and here, here.

July ABC circulation numbers here. Declines up to 25%.

ABC H1 2018 Irish circulation numbers are out on Thursday coming, 23 August 2018.

John_Rambo · 17-08-2018 9:02pm

Hoteliers got their tax discount when they were in trouble. They still have it now when you can't get a room in the capital for less than mad money. Maybe the newspapers are looking for something like that.

Travel agencies are suffering the same type of cultural shift problems. I don't see any tax drop helping either industry though.

Muahahaha · 17-08-2018 9:18pm

John_Rambo wrote: »

Hoteliers got their tax discount when they were in trouble. They still have it now when you can't get a room in the capital for less than mad money. Maybe the newspapers are looking for something like that.

Travel agencies are suffering the same type of cultural shift problems. I don't see any tax drop helping either industry though.

They certainly are looking for taxpayers money and they already have Fianna Fail TD Dimmy Tooley in their back pocket batting for them-

A minister for the media, a new €30 million fund for print journalism and a review of defamation laws are among the proposals advanced by Fianna Fáil today in a new policy designed “to sustain high quality journalism in Irish public life.”

The plan was launched this morning by the party’s front bench communications spokesman, Timmy Dooley.

It was welcomed by NewsBrands Ireland, the newspaper industry representative organisation which said it was “a welcome step forward in developing an effective national policy response to support independent journalism in Ireland”.

Fianna Fail must be very desperate for positive newspaper coverage so the plan now is to subsidise the newspapers in exchange for not criticizing them. Kind of like how RTE works but more blatant.

L1011 · 17-08-2018 10:14pm

Offering the carrot of a review of defamation laws - or threatening to make them worse if the papers don't comply - has been a common trait for FF for the past three or four decades to try and get the print media onside. This entire thing smacks of them not realising the print media isn't powerful anymore - they want 1997-like "payback time" headlines on election day; if they get them it'll backfire.

The decline continues

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