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Pro14 Season 2019-2020

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    #392
    PMC83
    Registered Users Posts: 1,104 ✭✭✭PMC83


    OldRio wrote: »
    I think it's just an excuse to be honest. Have a watch on TV.

    So you reckon in general the crowds just don't want to go?


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    #393
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,601 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    The Welsh thing comes up fairly often and I used to also think their union didn't have it's heart in the Pro14, but in reality they have some challenges. Their population is less than half the whole Island of Ireland. Their teams are clustered in one place. They've had little success at club level and they have competition from soccer in Swansea and Cardiff.

    Imagine if the Irish provincial teams were Dublin, Dundalk, Waterford and Cork and Dublin and Cork also had premier league/championship soccer happening. Then imagine we were hardly ever competitive in it.

    The IRFU have done a pretty good job with the Pro14, but the Scots, Welsh and Italians are ALL lagging behind. And our fans are failry fickle, if our fortunes change in the future I wouldn't bet on sustainability.


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    #394
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    awec wrote: »
    The Pro14 is a poor, convoluted mess that people in Wales just don't care about. And Ospreys just played a european game with no internationals.

    Not hard to see why interest is low.

    The league is the way that it is in no small part because of the state of Welsh regional rugby. Imagine having 2 regions regularly challenging for silverware. Throw in a Scottish team and 2 or 3 Irish teams and the league could be fantastic. 5 or 6 contenders on a regular basis would change everything. Instead the Welsh have had 1 contender a season at best. Sometimes none. So the league has had to adapt as a result.

    If Wales wasnt such a basket case the product would be better so theres a real element of chicken and egg there.


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    #395
    OldRio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭OldRio


    PMC83 wrote: »
    So you reckon in general the crowds just don't want to go?

    If honestly don't know but more importantly the WRU don't know.
    Soccer is a large draw for some of the population. Too many clubs in the Pro14. Maybe changes in people's priorities.


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    #396
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,438 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    errlloyd wrote: »
    The Welsh thing comes up fairly often and I used to also think their union didn't have it's heart in the Pro14, but in reality they have some challenges. Their population is less than half the whole Island of Ireland. Their teams are clustered in one place. They've had little success at club level and they have competition from soccer in Swansea and Cardiff.

    Imagine if the Irish provincial teams were Dublin, Dundalk, Waterford and Cork and Dublin and Cork also had premier league/championship soccer happening. Then imagine we were hardly ever competitive in it.

    The IRFU have done a pretty good job with the Pro14, but the Scots, Welsh and Italians are ALL lagging behind. And our fans are failry fickle, if our fortunes change in the future I wouldn't bet on sustainability.

    The IRFU have done a pretty good job in parts, but a lot of the successes are down to sheer dumb luck.

    Having 4 teams ready to go that fans could already identify with is a huge slice of that. Didn't the WRU originally try to turn their clubs professional back at the start of pro rugby? I know we Irish like to pontificate about our setup but a lot of it is down purely to good fortune and other unions weren't so lucky.

    I don't think the WRU really has it's heart in the Pro14. It's there because it has no other option, rather than through choice.


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    #397
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    awec wrote: »
    The IRFU have done a pretty good job in parts, but a lot of the successes are down to sheer dumb luck.

    Having 4 teams ready to go that fans could already identify with is a huge slice of that. Didn't the WRU originally try to turn their clubs professional back at the start of pro rugby? I know we Irish like to pontificate about our setup but a lot of it is down purely to good fortune and other unions weren't so lucky.

    I don't think the WRU really has it's heart in the Pro14. It's there because it has no other option, rather than through choice.

    Fully agree on the luck thing. That wasn't some masterstroke by the IRFU. They just fell into it. That said, Wales have had over 20 years now to figure out how they want to manage their pro game and they've made a complete mess of it. Ownership of the clubs, managing player contracts, the Millenium Stadium etc etc. Theyve a list of complete balls ups that have hampered their ability to adapt.

    If they dont have their heart in the league then they're idiots. Plain and simple. They have less than half the population of Ireland, but they only have about 20% less registered players. That isnt bad going and they need to be looking to invest in their development pathways. The league should play a big part in that for them as it does for us. Guys like Porter, Toner, VDF, Ringrose etc all cut their teeth in P14 rugby. Having their bigger stars leave the country doubly hurts the pro game there by not giving young kids a chance to see these players more often and also not giving them much of a look at success.


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    #398
    Rigor Mortis
    Registered Users Posts: 2,903 ✭✭✭Rigor Mortis


    The big crowds at club games is a convenient trope that allows those who didnt like regionalisation to claim it has failed. It's B.S. Principality Games get poor attendances most weeks.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bbc-added-fake-crowd-noise-to-principality-premiership-rugby-highlights-vjbdrqv3n


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    #399
    razorblunt
    Registered Users Posts: 17,300 ✭✭✭✭razorblunt


    The Welsh journos constantly talking the league down and overhyping anything, anything at all in the Gallagher Premiership doesn't help. Looking at you, Simon Thomas.


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    #400
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,021 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    awec wrote: »
    The IRFU have done a pretty good job in parts, but a lot of the successes are down to sheer dumb luck.

    Having 4 teams ready to go that fans could already identify with is a huge slice of that. Didn't the WRU originally try to turn their clubs professional back at the start of pro rugby? I know we Irish like to pontificate about our setup but a lot of it is down purely to good fortune and other unions weren't so lucky.

    I don't think the WRU really has it's heart in the Pro14. It's there because it has no other option, rather than through choice.

    I would need to find the source for this again but I can recall reading it somewhere, that back around dawn of professionalism I don't think it was given that the provinces would be the professional teams in Ireland, with some backing for AIL clubs to be the pro teams. Similar reasons to the disconnect in Wales, people identified more with their club etc etc.

    The whole thing was like the wild west back in the 90s anyway, nobody really knew what way things would go. I think the IRFU have done a very good job at managing the pro game in Ireland, think you're doing them a bit of a disservice there. The provinces just existing was definitely not enough to make the whole thing into the success it has become now.


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    #401
    Zzippy
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    PMC83 wrote: »
    Connacht fielded pretty much a second team (Bundee aside) and it was a sell out. I never really bought this business of 'no internationals, no interest'. Follow the team, not the individuals.

    Theres no internationals playing for Neath or Ponty Bridge or these clubs, yet a good derby still gets a massive crowd, which is part of the issue I guess.

    As you say, the PRO14 is a bit of a mess, and it seems that average welsh rugby fan would rather attend a domestic league game rather then a Pro14 one. Maybe an injection of cash will help this, but I doubt it.

    Well, apart from Bundee plus at least 5 more being first choice, and the fact it wasn't sold out, and Welsh club attendances would bely your last point, yep, pretty much spot on.


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    #402
    Richie_Rich89
    Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Richie_Rich89


    Wonder what changes CVC think will get them a return? They must have something in mind. But I wouldn't be surprised if they realised there wasn't much money to be made in pro rugby and cut their losses after a few years.


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    #403
    PMC83
    Registered Users Posts: 1,104 ✭✭✭PMC83


    Zzippy wrote: »
    Well, apart from Bundee plus at least 5 more being first choice, and the fact it wasn't sold out, and Welsh club attendances would bely your last point, yep, pretty much spot on.

    Never let the facts get in the way of a good rant


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    #404
    c.p.w.g.w
    Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    Richie_Rich89 wrote: »
    Wonder what changes CVC think will get them a return? They must have something in mind. But I wouldn't be surprised if they realised there wasn't much money to be made in pro rugby and cut their losses after a few years.

    So this CVC crowd own a steak in the Pro14 & English Premier...Thats a lot of money in the Rugby Business


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    #405
    MaybeMaybe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,295 ✭✭✭MaybeMaybe


    c.p.w.g.w wrote: »
    So this CVC crowd own a steak in the Pro14 & English Premier...Thats a lot of money in the Rugby Business

    I wonder how the want it cooked. That'll tell you all you need to know


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    #406
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    I would need to find the source for this again but I can recall reading it somewhere, that back around dawn of professionalism I don't think it was given that the provinces would be the professional teams in Ireland, with some backing for AIL clubs to be the pro teams. Similar reasons to the disconnect in Wales, people identified more with their club etc etc.

    The whole thing was like the wild west back in the 90s anyway, nobody really knew what way things would go. I think the IRFU have done a very good job at managing the pro game in Ireland, think you're doing them a bit of a disservice there. The provinces just existing was definitely not enough to make the whole thing into the success it has become now.

    There was talk that the AIL clubs wanted to be the Irish representatives in the Heineken Cup.

    I'm not sure if they were ever fully pro but there was some good money knocking about the AIL back then.

    Initially the IRFU were pretty shocking and at one stage there was talk of Ireland actually training in England as that's where most of the players were based.

    Then they got their act together and started bring players home.

    The team that started the 97 6N was
    IRELAND: C O'Shea (London Irish); J Topping (Ballymena), J Bell (Northampton), M Field (Malone), D Crotty (Garryowen); E Elwood (Lansdowne), N Hogan (Terenure); N Popplewell (Newcastle), K Wood (Harlequins, capt), P Wallace (Saracens), P Johns (Saracens), J Davidson (London Irish), D Corkery (Bristol), W McBride (Malone), E Miller (Leicester). Replacements: A Clarke (Northampton) for Wood, 39; K McQuilkin (Lansdowne) for Field, 44; P Flavin (Blackrock) for Popplewell, 85.

    9 starters based in England

    The team that started the 98 6N was
    IRELAND: C O'Shea (London Irish); R Wallace (Saracens), K Maggs (Bristol), M McCall (London Irish), D Hickie (St Mary's); D Humphreys (London Irish), B O'Meara (Cork Constitution); R Corrigan (Greystones), K Wood (Harlequins, capt), P Wallace, P Johns (both Saracens), M O'Kelly (London Irish), D Corkery (Bristol), K Dawson (London Irish), E Miller (Leicester). Replacements: N Popplewell (Newcastle) for P Wallace, 60-62; V Costello (St Mary's) for K Dawson, 67.

    12 starters based in England

    In the 2000 6N it was down to 5


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    #407
    Utah_Saint
    Registered Users Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭Utah_Saint


    I believe many Welsh fans think attendances would vastly improve if they were in the English prem...but everytime a Welsh side faces an English side in the European cup attendances are flat.

    If the national side underperform they are in big trouble as that's where all the funding comes from.


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    #408
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,438 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Utah_Saint wrote: »
    I believe many Welsh fans think attendances would vastly improve if they were in the English prem...but everytime a Welsh side faces an English side in the European cup attendances are flat.

    If the national side underperform they are in big trouble as that's where all the funding comes from.
    If they are in trouble then we are in trouble, because there can be no Pro14 (of any variant) without the Welsh.


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    #409
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Utah_Saint wrote: »
    I believe many Welsh fans think attendances would vastly improve if they were in the English prem...but everytime a Welsh side faces an English side in the European cup attendances are flat.

    If the national side underperform they are in big trouble as that's where all the funding comes from.

    I genuinely think Wales are on the cusp of a bit of a downturn.

    The welsh pro14 teams have been on a steady decline overall of late and I think Gatland has managed to paper over the cracks at International level in a way Pivac may not be able to replicate.

    Only Scarlets are above mid table in the pro currently.


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    #410
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,438 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I genuinely think Wales are on the cusp of a bit of a downturn.

    The welsh pro14 teams have been on a steady decline overall of late and I think Gatland has managed to paper over the cracks at International level in a way Pivac may not be able to replicate.

    Only Scarlets are above mid table in the pro currently.

    Yes it is definitely a concern that things are about to get worse.


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    #411
    Granny15
    Registered Users Posts: 1,129 ✭✭✭Granny15


    Two conflicting reports on the future of Irish rugby. BBC saying the Pro14 to be epxanded in 5 countries it already operates within with the possiblity of the States entering a team. Other news outlets saying a British & Irish Super League to be formed.

    With the windfall of €40M I think the IRFU should invest it as follows: New Stands built in clubs in Waterford, Dundalk, Athlone, Wexford, Derry, Cork, and invest in stands for top clubs in Dublin and start to build an Irish Professional League.

    Too risky selling out to a British Vulture Fund and hoping the future of Irish rugby to be secure. The Welsh could renege at any time and the Pro14 would be in tatters. Time to invest in ourselves and the future of IRish professional rugby by building suitable stadia/grounds and merging the clubs in the population centres around the country with this €40M.

    https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/50453217

    https://extra.ie/2019/11/19/sport/ru...-with-new-deal

    https://rugby365.com/countries/engla...ship-and-pro14


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    #412
    OldRio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭OldRio


    Some of the click bait posted above is from July.


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    #413
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,546 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    The Welsh could renege and do what exactly? If anyone wanted them they would be gone years ago.


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    #414
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Granny15 wrote: »
    Two conflicting reports on the future of Irish rugby. BBC saying the Pro14 to be epxanded in 5 countries it already operates within with the possiblity of the States entering a team. Other news outlets saying a British & Irish Super League to be formed.

    With the windfall of €40M I think the IRFU should invest it as follows: New Stands built in clubs in Waterford, Dundalk, Athlone, Wexford, Derry, Cork, and invest in stands for top clubs in Dublin and start to build an Irish Professional League.

    Too risky selling out to a British Vulture Fund and hoping the future of Irish rugby to be secure. The Welsh could renege at any time and the Pro14 would be in tatters. Time to invest in ourselves and the future of IRish professional rugby by building suitable stadia/grounds and merging the clubs in the population centres around the country with this €40M.

    https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/50453217

    https://extra.ie/2019/11/19/sport/ru...-with-new-deal

    https://rugby365.com/countries/engla...ship-and-pro14
    an Irish pro league isnt feasible unless you completely change age grade structures and everything else as well.
    Waterford, dundalk, athlone, Derry dont need stands. It's more development officers. More funding to assist getting the kids who start playing tag/15s as introduced to these by development officers in school playing in clubs.
    An Irish pro league isnt feasible or going to happen.


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    #415
    PMC83
    Registered Users Posts: 1,104 ✭✭✭PMC83


    Ospreys sign Marty McKenzie from the chiefs- looks like a good signing, hopefully they get a few wins under their belts

    https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/50481262


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    #416
    connemara man
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 6,773 Mod ✭✭✭✭connemara man


    Dave Rennie to take over Australia at the end of the season

    Scotland assistant coach Danny Wilson to take over
    He took Cardiff to their challenge cup win


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    #417
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,076 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    PMC83 wrote: »
    Ospreys sign Marty McKenzie from the chiefs- looks like a good signing, hopefully they get a few wins under their belts

    https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/50481262

    Well he's 10x the player luke price is.

    But don't expect him to be another Damian. He's a lot more of a traditional solid 10 than an elusive runner like his brother


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    #418
    PMC83
    Registered Users Posts: 1,104 ✭✭✭PMC83


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Well he's 10x the player luke price is.

    But don't expect him to be another Damian. He's a lot more of a traditional solid 10 than an elusive runner like his brother

    Can't find too many highlights on youtube, but as you say a better option then luke price. They an injection of something to get them going anyway


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    #419
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,607 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    PMC83 wrote: »
    Can't find too many highlights on youtube, but as you say a better option then luke price. They an injection of something to get them going anyway

    You should be able to find some highlights of him playing for Taranaki.


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    #420
    Digifriendly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,019 ✭✭✭Digifriendly


    Wales Online reporting that Warren Gatland is calling for Ospreys and Scarlets to merge.
    https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/warren-gatland-reveals-what-really-17284992


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    #421
    c.p.w.g.w
    Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    Digifriendly wrote: »
    Wales Online reporting that Warren Gatland is calling for Ospreys and Scarlets to merge.
    https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/warren-gatland-reveals-what-really-17284992

    Were the old welsh clubs of Llanelli RFC, Bridgend, Neath & Newport not viable at all? Was Regional rugby the only option they had?


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