Young farmer top up

larrymiller · 27-03-2015 4:57pm

Toplink wrote: »

20% if my Teagasc mans assumption is correct.

If this is not correct and the requirement will be that the young farmer needs to take the majority share then I will be taking a 34% share as both my parents are on the herd number.

I can get written confirmation on the size of the share that the young farmer needs to take in the partnership.

A lot of confusion between everyone.
Changed adviser only met new lad yesterday everything last minute

Toplink · 08-05-2015 10:37am

So I was just about to send off my new partnership details to the Department in Dublin... However after a brief conversation with my GLAS planner he tells me that Coveney has removed the tax implications around shared herd numbers and top ups.

So the only reason I was going the partnership route was to avoid the tax implications of my name going in with the entitements. Now I dont need to go the partnership route at all.

I spent the last week chasing my tail like a gombeen.

Anyone else hear this?

LivInt20 · 08-05-2015 11:37am

Toplink wrote: »

So I was just about to send off my new partnership details to the Department in Dublin... However after a brief conversation with my GLAS planner he tells me that Coveney has removed the tax implications around shared herd numbers and top ups.

So the only reason I was going the partnership route was to avoid the tax implications of my name going in with the entitements. Now I dont need to go the partnership route at all.

I spent the last week chasing my tail like a gombeen.

Anyone else hear this?

I think you need to seek tax advice.

Do not take complicated tax advice from a GLAS planner.

Toplink · 08-05-2015 11:56am

LivInt20 wrote: »

I think you need to seek tax advice.

Do not take complicated tax advice from a GLAS planner.

advice...

At times, I reckon I am half a page ahead of my teagasc advisor on this stuff. As for my accountant. My experience with him the past few weeks has lead me to believe I wont be using him next year.

It 'appears' that my father now wont have to pay any tax when he gifts half the entitlements to me and it also appears the that I wont haev to pay any gift tax as part of this arrangment.

The grey area I see is what happens in the year the farm makes a profit.

A partnership appears to be alot cleaner from an accounting perspective but it also creates a bit of overhead and an extra few euro on accountantcy fees also.

larrymiller · 08-05-2015 12:02pm

Toplink wrote: »

advice...

At times, I reckon I am half a page ahead of my teagasc advisor on this stuff. As for my accountant. My experience with him the past few weeks has lead me to believe I wont be using him next year.

It 'appears' that my father now wont have to pay any tax when he gifts half the entitlements to me and it also appears the that I wont haev to pay any gift tax as part of this arrangment.

The grey area I see is what happens in the year the farm makes a profit.

A partnership appears to be alot cleaner from an accounting perspective but it also creates a bit of overhead and an extra few euro on accountantcy fees also.

I wonder do we share the same accountant. Ours has been a prick over the whole thing

Toplink · 08-05-2015 12:07pm

larrymiller wrote: »

I wonder do we share the same accountant. Ours has been a prick over the whole thing

Nobody will put their neck on the line and give a straight answer and I dont blame them in one regard as the rules appear to be changes month by month.

All we are trying to do here is meet the rules but when you dont know the full impact of the decisions you are making its very unsettling. Especially when you are dealing with you parents livelihood also.

larrymiller · 08-05-2015 12:51pm

Toplink wrote: »

Nobody will put their neck on the line and give a straight answer and I dont blame them in one regard as the rules appear to be changes month by month.

All we are trying to do here is meet the rules but when you dont know the full impact of the decisions you are making its very unsettling. Especially when you are dealing with you parents livelihood also.

Exactly no body knows what long term effect it could have

p dogg · 08-05-2015 1:37pm

larrymiller wrote: »

Exactly no body knows what long term effect it could have

I was all on for going for the young farmer top up, myself and father met with advisor and he outlined how we go about this
At first it looked like partnership was the best way to go due to tax issues being avoided, our advisor then contacted me saying that we could go the joint herd number route instead due to the tax implications being dropped, we at this stage had a joint bank account set up and all that was left to do was have a meeting with our accountant and back to advisor to finish off the particulars. Our accountant was dead against the joint herd number, and partnership also, the way he put it was "it will only open up wounds down the road" (for myself) and said I was better off as I was keeping my own stock in fathers herd number,
I said this to advisor and he said best to go with what accountants opinion was, although he did say this was the only case of an accountant dead against the change he had come across,
Trying to do everything correct but getting different advice off professionals is a pain, we are now not going for this top up worth 15,000 euro over 5 years, why could things not have been made more clear and black and white for people!!!!!

Toplink · 08-05-2015 3:20pm

p dogg wrote: »

I was all on for going for the young farmer top up, myself and father met with advisor and he outlined how we go about this
At first it looked like partnership was the best way to go due to tax issues being avoided, our advisor then contacted me saying that we could go the joint herd number route instead due to the tax implications being dropped, we at this stage had a joint bank account set up and all that was left to do was have a meeting with our accountant and back to advisor to finish off the particulars. Our accountant was dead against the joint herd number, and partnership also, the way he put it was "it will only open up wounds down the road" (for myself) and said I was better off as I was keeping my own stock in fathers herd number,
I said this to advisor and he said best to go with what accountants opinion was, although he did say this was the only case of an accountant dead against the change he had come across,
Trying to do everything correct but getting different advice off professionals is a pain, we are now not going for this top up worth 15,000 euro over 5 years, why could things not have been made more clear and black and white for people!!!!!

I am going to go for it anyway... i'll probably get mowed down somewhere "down the road" but sure nothing risked, nothing gained as they say!

Now, I still haven't decided which route I am going

Joint Herd Number
Partnership

My Young Farmer Scheme application has been submitted under entity of partnership but I just spoke to a lady in the department and she said I can write a letter in stating that I dont want to go the partnership route if thats what I decide to do and that they'll "look at it".

I have numbers for 3 lads in Teagasc and I cannot get one of them this afternoon.

Toplink · 26-05-2015 9:11pm

Jesus there is never a simple path with the Dept of Agriculture....

So I submitted an application to the young farmer/national reserve scheme back in march before the closing date. I filed the application under the category 'partnership' as that was my intended route though I did not have a partnership number at the time. But I rang the Dept and they told me to proceed using the herd number and agfood allowed me to do this and it was specifically stated in the application that it was under the category partnership.

Anyway, I queried the application during the week as I hadn't heard anything since March and I get an email of some fella in the Dept this evening telling me I'll have to reapply under the partnership number. So I took a quick look in agfood as it would only take me 10 minutes to reapply... However the National Reserve scheme is now CLOSED.

I'll burn the ear off someone first thing in the morning. They are making this up as they go along.

ihatewinter · 26-05-2015 11:14pm

TOPLINK word of warning write down everything and keep copies of all documents. The feckers have a tendency of changing rules and regulations to try and cover their own back.

mickeyjoe79 · 27-05-2015 12:08am

Thinking of doing the green cert course as I would need to have it if I want to build a slatted shed with 60% grant and also for national reserve. Seems you need this piece of paper now and for anything in the future so may be wise just to do and get it out of the way!. Im a full time paye worker and was just wondering does the course require much of your own time outside of the 1 day per month classroom day? Also where is the nearest college for Donegal. I heard someone say Roscommon ? Has anyone did the course or doing it , what does it involve ? Any info appreciated.

Pat2 · 27-05-2015 12:42pm

The Department of Agri and Revenue have both been very slow to come out with any real guidance on these issues. I am an Accountant and Farmer myself and I am finding it very difficult to get any answers on the minimum profit sharing percentage required (if any) for joint herd numbers.

The announcement by S Coveney on the CGT & CAT implications on the joint herd numbers has been welcomed but this should have been announced months ago before the 31st March deadline to allow applicants time to consider the most appropriate avenue for each individual.

I have been in contact with revenue and teagasc again today to find out if they can shed any light on the joint herd number profit sharing issue for Income Tax and if I hear anything of relevance from them I will post it here.

Toplink · 27-05-2015 12:45pm

Pat2 wrote: »

I have been in contact with revenue and teagasc again today to find out if they can shed any light on the joint herd number profit sharing issue for Income Tax and if I hear anything of relevance from them I will post it here.

And thats the main reason I went the partnership route Pat. At least there is defined % for each of the partners. No grey area and no surprises with revenue in the future.

ganmo · 27-05-2015 12:52pm

Toplink wrote: »

And thats the main reason I went the partnership route Pat. At least there is defined % for each of the partners. No grey area and no surprises with revenue in the future.

Ya we went the partnership route too. there is a way around the %, by paying a wage one way or the other(so I'm told)

Pat2 · 27-05-2015 2:50pm

Not sure what your saying adds up there ganmo.

If there is a partnership in place each partner includes their share of the profits in their Income Tax Return. You cannot pay a wage to a partner but even if you could pay a wage to a partner they would get taxed on the wage so it would be the same end result.

ganmo · 27-05-2015 3:18pm

Pat2 wrote: »

You cannot pay a wage to a partner???

but even if you could pay a wage to a partner they would get taxed on the wage so it would be the same end result.

Really? Y can't you?

Pat2 · 27-05-2015 3:43pm

A Partnership is not a legal entity. It is basically 2 or more individuals carrying on a business together. Each partner is assessed for Income Tax purposes on their share of the profits.

ganmo · 27-05-2015 4:57pm

but surely either partner can draw a wage(with the agreement of the other partner) before the profit is divided

Pat2 · 28-05-2015 10:30pm

The partnership is two individuals so you cannot pay yourself a wage. You can agree that one partner will receive a larger share of the profits.

ganmo · 29-05-2015 10:21am

Pat2 wrote: »

The partnership is two individuals so you cannot pay yourself a wage. You can agree that one partner will receive a larger share of the profits.

how do you account for when the workload is different each year?

Toplink · 29-05-2015 10:25am

ganmo wrote: »

how do you account for when the workload is different each year?

The ratios or indeed the partnership agreement can be reviewed and changed anytime as far as I am aware.

My situation was simple. I work off the farm so my work is mainly admin and no more than 3 hours physical farm work. So I took the minimum % I could which was 20%. I'll be paying the high rate of tax on this so trying to keep it as low as possible. ( though its a suckler farm so need to worry about hiding profits :-) )

Toplink · 01-10-2015 2:56pm

Looks like payments will be made in December on the top ups.

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/applied-to-the-young-farmers-scheme-this-year-heres-when-youll-get-paid/

larrymiller · 01-10-2015 3:54pm

Toplink wrote: »

Looks like payments will be made in December on the top ups.

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/applied-to-the-young-farmers-scheme-this-year-heres-when-youll-get-paid/

When will we know how much were getting?

Nettleman · 01-10-2015 4:27pm

larrymiller wrote: »

When will we know how much were getting?

These are meant to be based on the national average + 25% topup if within first 5 years, but there doesn't seem to be any guidance on whether the national average estimated at 250/ha is accurate for 2015 or too high or too low. There just seems to be a total shutdown of information. if there was good news for young farmers, it probably would have been announced at the ploughing where all good news gets trotted out, so nothing else to do but wait until it arrives or doesn't arrive in December. Poor way to treat new lads and lass starting out in farming imo

ganmo · 01-10-2015 5:18pm

Nettleman wrote: »

These are meant to be based on the national average + 25% topup if within first 5 years, but there doesn't seem to be any guidance on whether the national average estimated at 250/ha is accurate for 2015 or too high or too low. There just seems to be a total shutdown of information. if there was good news for young farmers, it probably would have been announced at the ploughing where all good news gets trotted out, so nothing else to do but wait until it arrives or doesn't arrive in December. Poor way to treat new lads and lass starting out in farming imo

It's jus the dept showing us who's boss...they tell us we've to jump and we're ment to know how high to jump where, when and how often

larrymiller · 01-10-2015 5:21pm

Nettleman wrote: »

These are meant to be based on the national average + 25% topup if within first 5 years, but there doesn't seem to be any guidance on whether the national average estimated at 250/ha is accurate for 2015 or too high or too low. There just seems to be a total shutdown of information. if there was good news for young farmers, it probably would have been announced at the ploughing where all good news gets trotted out, so nothing else to do but wait until it arrives or doesn't arrive in December. Poor way to treat new lads and lass starting out in farming imo

I'll be hiding all farming papers from the mrs between now and then if she gets sniff of another payment before xmass she'll be looking for more than pjs and socks

Cavanjack · 01-10-2015 5:34pm

Is it not €65 a hectare of a top up to a max of 50 hectares?

ganmo · 01-10-2015 8:50pm

Cavanjack wrote: »

Is it not €65 a hectare of a top up to a max of 50 hectares?

nobody knows!
its ment to be

Q.What will entitlements allocated from the National Reserve be valued at?
A.The value of entitlements allocated from the National Reserve, and the value to which existing entitlements are increased, shall be fixed at the national average value of payment entitlements in the year of allocation.

so we have to wait till they've calculated what everyone else is getting till they decide what we're getting. at the start it was thought to be 250/ha then by the time the deadline the talk was 170/ha so really nobody knows but they don't want to say it

Miname · 01-10-2015 9:05pm

ganmo wrote: »

nobody knows!
its ment to be

so we have to wait till they've calculated what everyone else is getting till they decide what we're getting. at the start it was thought to be 250/ha then by the time the deadline the talk was 170/ha so really nobody knows but they don't want to say it

I was told by my Teagasc advisor it was €64 and odd cents.

Young farmer top up

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