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RWC Bid 2023/2027
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melekalikimaka wrote: »I fully expect the governemnt will step in if the GAA get greedy, which if Croker was anything to go by when Landsdowne was getting done is to go by, will happen. The GAA is build on tax payer handouts, bout time there was a return
I don't think any of that is really accurate, but yes, the Government would step in if the rents were too high; for any bid to be successful, someone will have to underwrite the losses that the tournament might make.
e.g. RWC 2011 was generally considered a great success, brought huge numbers of people to NZ and gave the economy a great boost, but when the sums were done and the IRB were paid, the actual tournament made a loss which the NZ government had to cover.
So, if the GAA are going to exacerbate that loss by asking too much for their grounds, you may see a bit of gentle nudging from the state. But I don't think it will come to that. What else are the GAA doing with their stadia in October? I'm sure that the rents will be nominal and the focus will be on capital investment to upgrade the grounds.0 -
really? croke park cost 260million in total, Aviva got 191million in grants alone. croker got 110million in external funding, 91 from the lotto, 19million for special olympics upgradesmelekalikimaka wrote: »I fully expect the governemnt will step in if the GAA get greedy, which if Croker was anything to go by when Landsdowne was getting done is to go by, will happen. The GAA is build on tax payer handouts, bout time there was a return
you know the gaa season doesnt end in the third week in September? there was about 10,000 in healy park in omagh yesterday in December, similar im sure in the leinster & munster finals of various codesformer legend wrote: »What else are the GAA doing with their stadia in October? I'm sure that the rents will be nominal and the focus will be on capital investment to upgrade the grounds.
back track to October & you are dealing with all the county finals & semis which would also attract close on 10,000 (depending on the county obviously but the small grounds arent in the small counties). the step from county ground to the next one is usually quite drastic although again in the relevant counties, there might be a second ground close to this capacity which could support these games. i just really dislike the 'sure there's nothing happening' crap
although id agree with the sentiment that considering there will be upgrades done & probably paid for there shouldnt be huge rent costs or possible any1 -
really? croke park cost 260million in total, Aviva got 191million in grants alone. croker got 110million in external funding, 91 from the lotto, 19million for special olympics upgrades
you know the gaa season doesnt end in the third week in September? there was about 10,000 in healy park in omagh yesterday in December, similar im sure in the leinster & munster finals of various codes
back track to October & you are dealing with all the county finals & semis which would also attract close on 10,000 (depending on the county obviously but the small grounds arent in the small counties). the step from county ground to the next one is usually quite drastic although again in the relevant counties, there might be a second ground close to this capacity which could support these games. i just really dislike the 'sure there's nothing happening' crap
although id agree with the sentiment that considering there will be upgrades done & probably paid for there shouldnt be huge rent costs or possible any
Jesus, some people just prowl this place looking to be outraged.
Yeah, I know the GAA season doesn't end in September. I was at the Dublin county final a few weeks ago, you know where it was on? Parnell Park. Haven't heard that being mentioned in relation to the World Cup. Killarney is needed for the rugby? Play the Kerry final in Tralee.
Or better yet, some bright spark can invest in a calendar and just not schedule the matches for the same day.0 -
jezz relax! i just pointed out there was indeed a lot stuff happening in October you said there was nothing!!!former legend wrote: »Jesus, some people just prowl this place looking to be outraged.
Yeah, I know the GAA season doesn't end in September. I was at the Dublin county final a few weeks ago, you know where it was on? Parnell Park. Haven't heard that being mentioned in relation to the World Cup. Killarney is needed for the rugby? Play the Kerry final in Tralee.
Or better yet, some bright spark can invest in a calendar and just not schedule the matches for the same day.
looking back it probably reads more aggressively than i meant it. and there were posts earlier in this thread on about moving the AI finals to another ground, never gonna happen but sure it just means keeping the opening weekend out of croke park anyway looking at the 2015 schedule or pushing them forward a week & ensuring no replays.
anyway i even said most of the counties involved would have big enough secondary grounds. looking into it- the only ones that dont are Antrim, who play both codes (and good at club level), but should at least have the county teams finished up early & could then get their club championship done early (bar a sudden emergence as contenders).
Derry-who i still this should be involved as the 4th biggest city on the island are only really good at one code, when you look at brighton stadium which will only host 2 games, yea they will probably manage it no matter how far the seniors go!
same for Mayo although im not sure if mcHale park in is involved in the bid
so er yea... moot point0 -
England 2015 needs those ticket prices to cover the rental of big soccer grounds, which are astronomical and will seem very big and empty for some of the lesser games.
In terms of the scale of Ireland's bid, the overheads in that regard should be much lower for a start, as with the GAA they are dealing with one organisation with whom it should be possible to arrange a single contract for stadium rentals with the GAA themselves deciding how to trickle the windfall down to the host counties and their other activities.
I dont think there is much point in hedging our bets between 2023 or '27, if we fail to focus on one we could end up losing out on both. We should ramp up the promotion for Ireland 2023 straight away on the back of the Gathering, and get the subliminal message through to the would-be voters long before the bids are due in.
We should put both Italy and RSA in our sights and tell the whole world why Ireland is a superior choice to host.
Ireland is a better fit for the moderate size of a RWC compared to a FIFA WC or Olympics. It is compact yet commodious, road and air transport are excellent, we have the bulk of numbers of rugby supporters in the world on our doorstep. We have fantastic alternative activities for fans, teams and the media circus outside of the rugby games. The weather is moderate, especially in Sept/Oct, not too hot like Italy or RSA and not too cold and miserable like NZ. The proposed venues are intimate yet central to great host towns, they are historical and atmospheric. There is no better country to throw a party or to come up with solutions to provide high levels of temporary hospitality and media hosting at normally modest venues
Italy is largely disinterested in rugby, their stadiums are soulless compounds built for a dangerous football culture, I dont believe you would get a suitable buy-in from the government or population.
South Africa has a great tradition, but its a remote place to attract huge overseas numbers, its very spread out and logistics are difficult. It can be dangerous and corrupt. Its trying to get some use out of its FIFA WC stadiums and they may be too big in scale for the majority of the RWC fixtures. They have also hosted before (France too) and it would be unfair not to rotate through all the traditional rugby nations before returning to RSA once again.
Ireland is just the best choice, end of.;)
You're onto something there. We can get our upstanding politicians like Wallace, Lowry and Healy-Rae to front Ireland's bid. They always see the bigger picture....0 -
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Sorry? Did I say something you found to be to your distaste. Oh my apologies, all I was doing was listing some reasons why the GAA would hopefully cut a more reasonable deal with the IRFU than the various soccer teams had with the RFU.
You seem to think that the GAA should be able to charge any price for stadium rental and I should just be thankful they provided them? As if they were doing some incredible good deed by making millions of euro at the expense of the fans of my sport and not theirs.
I am generally thrilled the GAA have got on board. I realise we couldn't do it without them, but the suggestion that this is some sort of one way street, where they give us stadiums out of the goodness in their hearts and expect nothing in return is laughable. The GAA are entitled to set their price, time will tell how fair that price is. In the meantime I'd appreciate if you didn't take such a cheap shot when I actually suggest some reasons why I think their price will be fair.
Jaysus,I am all for hosting the Rugby WC but it's not as simple as paying a set fee for stadia and leave it at that,To be fair without the GAA the bid would never be in anyone's mind and to be honest the GAA could host it on there own and not use any other grounds.The GAA are going to be a major player in this not only will the stadiums be used but there will also be alot of training facilities being used by competing teams,All at an expense of the GAA.There will also be the inevitable drop in attendances at Club Championship matches due to the RWC. I don't believe for one second the GAA will try and "fleece" the IRFU but if i was in Liam O Neill's position i would be looking for a sizeable cut from ticket sales across the tournament.
The GAA are 90% of this bid like it or not
Many reports suggest these competitions cost money to run so why would the IRFU want to host it?1 -
melekalikimaka wrote: »I fully expect the governemnt will step in if the GAA get greedy, which if Croker was anything to go by when Landsdowne was getting done is to go by, will happen. The GAA is build on tax payer handouts, bout time there was a return
What an ignorant post. The GAA is far bigger than Rugby in this country so deserve every penny they get. However it's funny that the government spent far more to help build the Aviva than Croke Park. I presume that's what you're on about.1 -
Jaysus,I am all for hosting the Rugby WC but it's not as simple as paying a set fee for stadia and leave it at that,To be fair without the GAA the bid would never be in anyone's mind and to be honest the GAA could host it on there own and not use any other grounds.The GAA are going to be a major player in this not only will the stadiums be used but there will also be alot of training facilities being used by competing teams,All at an expense of the GAA.There will also be the inevitable drop in attendances at Club Championship matches due to the RWC. I don't believe for one second the GAA will try and "fleece" the IRFU but if i was in Liam O Neill's position i would be looking for a sizeable cut from ticket sales across the tournament.
The GAA are 90% of this bid like it or not
Many reports suggest these competitions cost money to run so why would the IRFU want to host it?
Exactly. The GAA should rent out their grounds at the normal price and ask for a sizeable compensation fee. They are giving a competing sporting organization a marketing dream and will see a drop in club championship games. But more importantly it will steer more young kids away from the GAA to Rugby. This can't happen without the GAA and I hope people appreciate them for their help.1 -
What an ignorant post. The GAA is far bigger than Rugby in this country so deserve every penny they get. However it's funny that the government spent far more to help build the Aviva than Croke Park. I presume that's what you're on about.
How are those two things linked? Just seems like an excuse to have a go at rugby tbh0 -
Exactly. The GAA should rent out their grounds at the normal price and ask for a sizeable compensation fee. They are giving a competing sporting organization a marketing dream and will see a drop in club championship games. But more importantly it will steer more young kids away from the GAA to Rugby. This can't happen without the GAA and I hope people appreciate them for their help.
No one is saying they shouldn't be paid. We were just expressing hope that they won't ask for too much. By too much I mean I'd be annoyed if our rugby world cup tickets cost as much as England's (obviously adjusting for inflation). I don't think anyone had suggested we should get the stadiums for free.0 -
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In terms of comparing both total costs and grants given remember Croke Park was redeveloped in four phases over 14 years starting in 1990. The original cost of the Cusack Stand was €35m in 1995 prices.0
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In terms of comparing both total costs and grants given remember Croke Park was redeveloped in four phases over 14 years starting in 1990. The original cost of the Cusack Stand was €35m in 1995 prices.
To be honest people talk about the money GAA got for Croker and then what FAI/IRFU got for Aviva and so on.
The government invested in these projects because they would get a return tenfold on it,How much money has the actual construction of those two stadiums created in tax and income?
They are full a dozen times a year between games and concerts in which there is a huge tax receipt plus the income brought into Dublin on those dates
So no need in crying that Bertie gave us this and ye that,Return on Investment is paramount when it comes to government funding0 -
Exactly. The GAA should rent out their grounds at the normal price and ask for a sizeable compensation fee. They are giving a competing sporting organization a marketing dream and will see a drop in club championship games. But more importantly it will steer more young kids away from the GAA to Rugby. This can't happen without the GAA and I hope people appreciate them for their help.
Compensation for what?
This is a win-win situation for everyone; the GAA will get capital investment into their stadia plus a cash bonus from renting the grounds to the tournament. The hoteliers and publicans of Thurles, Castlebar and Killarney get tens of thousands of thirsty rugby fans with money to spend. The whole country gets an economic boost.
But if the GAA start demanding "sizeable compensation", then the sums won't add up and nobody gets anything.
It's mad how some people will only see the negatives of any argument. Rugby has been on an upward curve in terms of popularity and exposure for over a decade but the GAA's popularity and participation numbers have never been higher.
If six Heineken Cups, three Triple Crowns and a Grand Slam didn't damage the GAA, then I wouldn't be too worried about Fiji v Namibia on a Thursday evening in McHale Park ten years from now derailing the train.0 -
former legend wrote: »
The whole country gets an economic boost.
It's mad how some people will only see the negatives of any argument.
This is still debatable though,Reports have suggested it possibly cost's the host country money,If that's the case what would be the benefits of hosting it?0 -
This is still debatable though,Reports have suggested it possibly cost's the host country money,If that's the case what would be the benefits of hosting it?
It cost NZ money because they are in the remotest corner of the planet and could only attract 100,000 visitors. Our potential is in the region of 400,000 visitors coming on much more flexible packages (day trips etc). Our overheads and input costs should be much lessened as a lot of the stadium upgrade work is due anyway and will be phased over 8-10 years.
Also, how you examine the bottom line determines the value of the success. Even if 'RWC 2023 Ltd' came away with a loss to the state, the revenues from VAT and corporation tax on sales and services to that number of fans would easily outweigh it, not to mention the social boost to the country which by then will be coming out of the celebrations of the centenary of the Free State and hopefully leaving the lost economic decade far behind0 -
It cost NZ money because they are in the remotest corner of the planet and could only attract 100,000 visitors. Our potential is in the region of 400,000 visitors coming on much more flexible packages (day trips etc).
Also, how you examine the bottom line determines the value of the success. Even if 'RWC 2023 Ltd' came away with a loss to the state, the revenues from VAT and corporation tax on sales and services to that number of fans would easily outweigh it, not to mention the social boost to the country which by then will be coming out of the celebrations of the centenary of the Free State and hopefully leaving the lost economic decade far behind
I think we would need that amount of extra visitors as i dont think the general public in Ireland would attend as many games as they did in NZ.
Anyways,I think even if it made a loss of 20/30m i think it would be worth while for repeat visitors etc..Should make up the loss in years to come,It would also be a huge marketing tool for Irish tourism.
If we do get the WC i think it might be wise to put in a bid for the smaller Rugby League WC or the Junior WC and use them as a dry run ahead of it0 -
former legend wrote: »If six Heineken Cups, three Triple Crowns and a Grand Slam didn't damage the GAA, then I wouldn't be too worried about Fiji v Namibia on a Thursday evening in McHale Park ten years from now derailing the train.
Yeah, I think opening the grounds for a RWC is far less risky to the GAA than doing likewise for provincial / international games. It's a (relatively) once-off event that would bring in a lot of cash for the GAA - possibly more than for the IRFU given the hosting costs - and when it's over the GAA grounds to back to GAA events.
It could be a win-win for everyone, hopefully everyone sees it that way.0 -
It cost NZ money because they are in the remotest corner of the planet and could only attract 100,000 visitors. Our potential is in the region of 400,000 visitors coming on much more flexible packages (day trips etc). Our overheads and input costs should be much lessened as a lot of the stadium upgrade work is due anyway and will be phased over 8-10 years.
The average spend of those 100,000 visitors to NZ would be way ahead of the average spend of any day tripper though, so its not a 4:1 advantage for us.
Someone would need to really churn the maths to see how much a day tripper or overnight stayer is worth, and what percentage of our 400,000 visitors would fall into this territory.1 -
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This is still debatable though,Reports have suggested it possibly cost's the host country money,If that's the case what would be the benefits of hosting it?
The benefits to the country far outweigh any loss that the tournament itself makes, background info on the 2011 tournament here:
http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/economic_indicators/NationalAccounts/impact-of-rugby-world-cup.aspx
And if the "loss" occurs because millions of Euro are paid by the tournament to IRFU and GAA for the use of stadia, it's a paper loss rather than a gaping hole in the accounts...0 -
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wittycynic wrote: »To which part of that are you throwing your eyes up?
The GAA is far bigger than Rugby in this country so deserve every penny they get
they don't deserve every penny, they are benefiting massively before any payments are made
However it's funny that the government spent far more to help build the Aviva than Croke Park
The stadium is a shared national stadium, unlike Croke Park, not like for like0 -
This is still debatable though,Reports have suggested it possibly cost's the host country money,If that's the case what would be the benefits of hosting it?
The host union(s) bidding for the RWC have to provide a guaranteed amount of funding to the IRB (or RWC company or whatever). This is through ticket sales (maybe some amount of advertising sales etc - not sure how it works exactly). Bottom line is that the IRFU would have to hand over a cheque to the IRB. As a (perfectly sensible and normal precaution) the IRB require that this process is underwritten by the local government - so that they don't face a situation of the union making a horlicks of it and then saying "Soz - can't afford to pay you".
The union, of course, may/will incur other costs in the bidding, preparation and running of the tournament. In the event that ticket sales don't fully cover all these costs, then the government may have to write part of the cheque.
However there are huge benefits to the economy, amongst which:
a) upgrading of facilities and infrastructure
b) big tourist numbers with large spending
c) temporary lift in jobs to cater for the above
For example - apparently an average 6N tourist spends €900 per visit for a 6N game. The UEFA cup final a few years back was estimated as being worth €25M to the economy.
Any commitment by the government would be spectacularly repaid - even in just tax take on VAT etc most likely, but with a likely multiplier of 5+ in terms of the injection of funds into the economy, with all the knock on effects that would have.0 -
I'm primarily a GAA fan but also have an interest in rugby. I've done out a plan about how a Rugby World Cup in Ireland would actually work in practice, based on previous tournaments.
The 2011 tournament used 12 stadiums, 2015 will use 13, while 2019 will use 11.
If we assume that any bid will need support from Wales and Scotland, likely involving those teams having one or two of their group matches in Cardiff/Edinburgh, the minimum any tournament here will need is nine stadiums. I'll go with 11 Irish stadiums for argument's sake.
These would be
Croke Park, Dublin
82k, can be easily converted to 74k all-seated for the tournament if deemed necessary, no work needed.
Lansdowne Road, Dublin
50k all-seated, no work needed.
Pairc Ui Chaoimh, Cork
45k, not all-seated. I've seen the proposals for the new Pairc Ui Chaoimh and it looks like a bit of a dog's dinner, in all honesty. Three sides of the the ground will remain pretty similar to what they are now, with 1970s terracing remaining behind the goals. This is not the type of terracing that can be easily converted to seating. Cork would have to be included in any bid however and this is the only viable option.
Fitzgerald Stadium, Killarney
Currently 43k but only 9k seated. Killarney is connected by rail, has an airport nearby. Connected by national primary road. Tourist hub so should be able to cater for visiting supporters. Fitzgerald Stadium would require major upgrading.
New Casement Park, Belfast (37k all-seated)
Will be part of any bid. However the rebuilding has run into legal problems with residents. Concerns remain about whether the site can cater for such a stadium and there is even talk about moving the site to nearby Musgrave Park. While the planned 2017 opening date is beginning to look optimistic, 2023 is plenty of time to get things sorted.
Thomond Park, Limerick
26k, not all-seated
Would certainly be a part of any bid. The Gaelic Grounds up the road from it holds 49,000. But do you really want a bid where three cities have more than one stadium? Likely that no work would be needed. Connected by airport, motorway and rail.
Pearse Stadium, Galway
Currently 26k with the vast majority standing. No airport, but well connected by motorway, rail and bus services. Galway is a tourist hub with enough hotel rooms to cater for supporters. Pearse Stadium would probably need one new stand to add to the existing one. However this would be problematic given that the stadium is hemmed in badly by housing - a whole host of legal issues re light etc would likely arise here. Any new stand would realistically have to buy and demolish a row of houses in what is an expensive area property-wise.
RDS, Dublin
Likely 22k all-seater by then. If the new proposal released this year goes through, the RDS could certainly hold matches, but this would be Dublin's third stadium in the bid and very much the poor relation of those three.
Celtic Park, Derry
22k currently but the vast majority standing. Derry is Ireland fourth largest city. If the bid is to be all-island it makes sense for it to be involved. Celtic Park would require significant upgrading. Rebuilding the Brandywell next door is another option. Derry is connected (poorly) by rail, national primary roads, it also has a small airport.
Ravenhill, Belfast
18k, mostly but not all-seated. Would likely be a part of any bid but could not expect to hold many matches given its small capacity.
Nowlan Park, Kilkenny:
Currently 24k with most seated. Connected by motorway and rail, a comfortable enough distance for people travelling from Dublin. Stadium will require upgrading - probably a new main stand. Kilkenny is a tourist town and well set up to cater for visitors.
Five of those stadiums are in Dublin/Belfast. The other three are in Munster, with one in the rest of Leinster, one in Connacht and one in the rest of Ulster.
Killarney would be the only town hosting a match, the others are all cities.
Six matches including two quarter-finals in my sample bid are played in Wales/Scotland, three in Cardiff, three in Edinburgh. 2015 has six matches in Wales, none in Scotland. 2007 had four in Wales, two in Scotland. Therfore Ireland would host 42 of the 48 matches.
Seven of the stadiums would be GAA venues, the other four existing rugby grounds. Lansdowne Road would likely host the opening match, with Croke Park the final, given its greater capacity.
Let's do out a sample group phase:
Group A
Ireland
Australia
Samoa
Georgia
Namibia
Group B
New Zealand
Wales
Italy
Tonga
Japan
Group C
South Africa
France
Fiji
Canada
Russia
Group D
England
Argentina
Scotland
USA
Romania
Based on 2023 dates, the tournament would likely start on Friday September 15 (not set in stone of course, it could be played a week later) with the final on Sunday October 29th (which would be a perfect weekend for the final as it's a bank holiday in Ireland).
Here's a sample fixture list based loosely on previous tournaments:
1. Fri Sep 15: Ireland v Samoa - Lansdowne Road (opening match)
2. Sat Sep 16: Wales v Japan - Pairc Ui Chaoimh, Cork
3. Sat Sep 16: New Zealand v ltaly Casement Park, Belfast
4. Sat Sep 16: Australia v Namibia - Thomond Park, Limerick
5. Sat Sep 16: USA v Romania - Nowlan Park, Kilkenny
6. Sun Sep 17 England v Argentina - Croke Park, Dublin
7. Sun Sep 17: South Africa v Fiji - Pearse Stadium, Galway
8. Sun Sep 17: France v Canada - Ravenhill, Belfast
9. Tues Sep 19: Georgia v Samoa - Thomond Park
10. Wed Sep 20: Wales v Tonga - Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
11. Wed Sep 20: Scotland v Romania - Murrayfield, Edinburgh
12. Thurs Sep 21: Canada v Russia - RDS, Dublin
13. Fri Sep 22: Ireland v Namibia - Croke Park, Dublin
14. Sat Sep 23: ltaly v Japan - Pearse Stadium, Galway
15. Sat Sep 23: South Africa v France - Lansdowne Road, Dublin
16. Sat Sep 23: England v USA - Pairc Ui Chaoimh, Cork
17. Sun Sep24: Argentina v Scotland - Murrayfield, Edinburgh
18. Sun Sep 24: New Zealand v Tonga - Lansdowne Road, Dublin
19. Mon Sep 25 Australia v Georgia - Fitzgerald Stadium, Killarney
20. Tues Sep 26: Fiji v Russia Nowlan Park, Kilkenny
21. Wed 27 Samoa v Namibia - Celtic Park, Derry
22. Thurs Sep 28: England v Romania Casement Park, Belfast
23. Fri Sep 29: South Africa v Canada Fitzgerald Stadium, Killarney
24. Sat Sep 30 Ireland v Australia - Croke Park
25. Sat Sep 30: New Zealand v Japan - Thomond Park, Limerick
26. Sun Oct 1: Wales v ltaly - Lansdowne Road
27. Sun Oct 1:France v Russia Pairc Ui Chaoimh, Cork
28. Sun Oct 1: Scotland v USA, Ravenhill, Befast
29. Mon Oct 2: Argentina v Romania Celtic Park, Derry
30. Tues Oct 3: Fiji v Canada - Casement Parkl, Belfast
31. Tues October 3 Georgia v Namibia - RDS, Dublin
32. Wed Oct 4: Tonga Japan - Pairc Ui Chaoimh, Cork
33. Fri Oct 6: England v Scotland - Croke Park, Dublin
34. Sat Oct 7: Argentina v USA - Pearse Stadium, Galway
35. Sat Oct 7 Ireland v Georgia - Lansdowne Road, Dublin
36. Sat Oct 7: New Zealand v Wales - Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
37. Sat Oct 7: South Africa v Russia Ravenhill, Belfast
38. Sun Oct 8: France v Fiji - Thomond Park Limerick
39. Sun Oct 8: ltaly v Tonga - RDS, Dublin
40. Sun Oct 8 Australia v Samoa - Casement Park, Belfast
Quarter-Finals:
Saturday October 14th
3: C1 France V D2 Argentina Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
1: A1 Ireland v B2 Wales Lansdowne Road, Dublin
Sunday October 15th
4: D1 England V C2 South Africa Murrayfield, Edinburgh
2: B1 New Zealand V A2 Australia Croke Park, Dublin
Semi-Finals
Saturday October 21st
W1 Ireland V W4 England Croke Park, Dublin
Sunday October 22nd
W2 New Zealand V W3 France Croke Park, Dublin
3rd place play-off:
Friday October 27th - Lansdowne Road, Dublin
Final:
Sunday October 29th - Croke Park, Dublin
There are a few issues that have to be addressed.
i)That five of the 11 Irish stadiums would be in two cities. This is not ideal, but there is no way around it and any bid will have to live with this.
ii) The two highest capacity stadiums in Croke Park and Lansdowne Road are both in Dublin.
iii) In New Zealand 2011, the two largest stadiums (Eden Park Auckland and Westpac Stadium, Wellington) hosted all four quarter finals between them. If all four quarter-finals were to be held in our two largest stadiums, that means Croke Park and Lansdowne Road. But hosting four quarter-finals in Dublin on one weekend would be chaos and cannot be done. At least one and likely two of the quarter-finals would have to be held in either Belfast and/or Cork if all four were to be held in Ireland. However, there has to be a question mark whether either the new Casement Park and/or the new Pairc Ui Chaoimh would be of the standard required to host a quarter-final.
By far the most likely way out of this, and what would almost certainly happen, is that at least one of the quarter-finals will be in Cardiff and/or Edinburgh.
iv) Croke Park will have to be "free" for at least two weeks before the tournament. In a normal year the All-Ireland football final would be on September 17th or 24th (it has alternated between the third and fourth Sundays over the last two decades). If the RWC started on September 15th, that would mean the very latest a match could be played at Croke Park would be Sunday September 3rd. Allowing for a replay in either the football or hurling final, you'd realistically need to push the football final forward to Sunday August 26th, in the event of the World Cup starting on September 15th.
v) The timeframe for the Rugby World Cup is the peak season for the latter stages of the county club championships. Arrangements re fixtures would have to be worked out. I don't see this presenting a major problem, though.
Seven of the stadiums I've listed as part of the bid are GAA stadiums. The impact on the respective county championships could be minimised in most cases by using secondary county grounds .
Instead of Pearse Stadium, Tuam, Athenry and Ballinasloe could be used for the Galway championships.
Austin Stack Park in Tralee and Pairc Ui Rinn in Cork could be used instead of Fitzgerald Stadium, Killarney and Pairc Ui Chaoimh.
Derry's new ground at Owenbeg could be used in place of Celtic Park.
Antrim and Kilkenny would find it a bit harder to find replacement venues for Casement Park and Nowlan Park but those grounds would be ready to go again for GAA action by mid October at the latest.
vi) One other thing that would have to be accommodated is Ireland's qualifying games for Euro 2024. September and October 2023 will be key dates for these matches and Ireland would normally be expected to have at least one home match, and more likely two, between the early September and mid-October dates. This poses a scheduling problem. Could Ireland host an early September qualifier given that the Rugby World Cup would start on September 15th? Doubtful. And a home match on the mid-October date would certainly be ruled out if Lansdowne Road was to host a quarter-final.
Breakdown of matches by venue:
Croke Park - 8
Sun Sep 17 England v Argentina
Fri Sep 22: Ireland v Namibia
Sat Sep 30 Ireland v Australia
Fri Oct 6: England v Scotland
1 quarter-final
2 semi-finals
The final
Lansdowne Road - 7
Fri Sep 15: Ireland v Samoa
Sat Sep 23: South Africa v France
Sun Sep 24: New Zealand v Tonga
Sun Oct 1: Wales v ltaly
Sat Oct 7: Ireland v Georgia
1 quarter-final
3rd/4th place play-off
Pairc Ui Chaoimh, Cork - 4
Sat Sep 16: Wales v Japan
Sat Sep 23: England v USA
Sun Oct 1: France v Russia
Wed Oct 4: Tonga v Japan
Thomond Park, Limerick - 4
Sat Sep 16: Australia v Namibia
Tue Sep 19: Georgia v Samoa
Sat Sep 30: New Zealand v Japan
Sun Oct 8: France v Fiji
Casement Park, Belfast - 4
Sat Sep 16: New Zealand v ltaly
Thurs Sep 28: England v Romania
Tues Oct 3: Fiji v Canada
Sun Oct 8 Australia v Samoa
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff -3
Wed Sep 20: Wales v Tonga
Sat Oct 7: New Zealand v Wales
1 quarter-final
Murrayfield, Edinburgh - 3
Wed Sep 20: Scotland v Romania
Sun Sep24: Argentina v Scotland
1 quarter-final
RDS, Dublin - 3
Thurs Sep 21: Canada v Russia
Tues October 3 Georgia v Namibia
Sun Oct 8: ltaly v Tonga
Ravenhill, Belfast - 3
Sun Sep 17: France v Canada
Sun Oct 1: Scotland v USA
Sat Oct 7: South Africa v Russia
Pearse Stadium Galway - 3
Sun Sep 17: South Africa v Fiji
Sat Sep 23: ltaly v Japan
Sat Oct 7: Argentina v USA
Fitzgerald Stadium, Killarney - 2
Mon Sep 25: Australia - Georgia
Fri Sep 29: South Africa v Canada
Nowlan Park, Kilkenny - 2
Sat Sep 16: USA v Romania
Tues Sep 26: Fiji v Russia
Celtic Park, Derry - 2
Wed 27 Samoa v Namibia
Mon Oct 2: Argentina v Romania0 -
That is some post Sid. I can't really think of any post with more work that I have seen in a while! Fair play and good effort. I think its fair to say we'll lose at least one quarter final, probably two as you say.
Its interesting that you're putting Ireland games in Croke Park - I presume the title sponsorship of the Aviva doesn't cover world cup games. I'd love one game, even the Namibia one to go up to Ravenhill (or other suitably sized Northern Irish Stadium) to demonstrate that this is a true cross border partnership.0 -
That is some post Sid. I can't really think of any post with more work that I have seen in a while! Fair play and good effort. I think its fair to say we'll lose at least one quarter final, probably two as you say.
Its interesting that you're putting Ireland games in Croke Park - I presume the title sponsorship of the Aviva doesn't cover world cup games. I'd love one game, even the Namibia one to go up to Ravenhill (or other suitably sized Northern Irish Stadium) to demonstrate that this is a true cross border partnership.
Open to correction but I would imagine that a World Cup would be outside any pre-existing requirement about where Ireland games would be played.
Re the North, I think that any bid should be a genuine cross border effort and have included Derry as well as the two Belfast stadiums to reflect this. I'd certainly have no problem with an Ireland game being played in Belfast but would think it unlikely. If the new Casement Park with its planned 37k capacity is built that would seem the most likely option for such a game.
I think using 11 stadiums would give a real all-island feel to the tournament - north, south east and west all represented.0 -
sid waddell wrote: »vi) One other thing that would have to be accommodated is Ireland's qualifying games for Euro 2024. September and October 2023 will be key dates for these matches and Ireland would normally be expected to have at least one home match, and more likely two, between the early September and mid-October dates. This poses a scheduling problem. Could Ireland host an early September qualifier given that the Rugby World Cup would start on September 15th? Doubtful. And a home match on the mid-October date would certainly be ruled out if Lansdowne Road was to host a quarter-final.
Fantastic post.
Just on this point theres two recent precedents.
In 2007 France played a UEFA2008 qualifier in the Parc Des Princes during the RWC. PDP wasn't a major venue though and only hosted two games, but the soccer match was between those two games so presumably the IRB dont have a problem with exclusivity.
Conversely in 1999 Wales moved games to Wrexham (during the RWC) and Anfield (before the RWC)
Would definitely be a big problem for us though, theres absolutely no guarantees that the FAI could arrange away games as the schedule either a) needs to be agreed with other countries who might have their own scheduling issues or b) gets randomised by UEFA if the countries can't agree and besides which the FAI wouldn't want to finish with a shedload of away games.
So something clever would definitely need to be worked out there.0 -
Based on current UEFA scheduling, there would likely be two double header dates in early September and mid-October for the Euro 2024 qualifiers.ArmaniJeanss wrote: »Fantastic post.
Just on this point theres two recent precedents.
In 2007 France played a UEFA2008 qualifier in the Parc Des Princes during the RWC. PDP wasn't a major venue though and only hosted two games, but the soccer match was between those two games so presumably the IRB dont have a problem with exclusivity.
Conversely in 1999 Wales moved games to Wrexham (during the RWC) and Anfield (before the RWC)
Would definitely be a big problem for us though, theres absolutely no guarantees that the FAI could arrange away games as the schedule either a) needs to be agreed with other countries who might have their own scheduling issues or b) gets randomised by UEFA if the countries can't agree and besides which the FAI wouldn't want to finish with a shedload of away games.
So something clever would definitely need to be worked out there.
These would probably be: Friday September 8th/Tuesday September 12th, 2023, and Friday October 13th/Tuesday October 17th, 2023.
The Tuesday October 17th date would be possible in terms of hosting one of these matches at Lansdowne, as under my sample schedule the quarter-finals of the RWC would have been played by then and the next RWC match in Lansdowne would be the 3rd/4th place play-off on October 27th, giving 10 days of a gap, which would be fine, I think.
The likelihood is that the FAI would have to schedule the qualifiers in such a way as that Ireland would only have qualifiers on three of the four dates scheduled for September/October, and the double-date in September would have to comprise two away matches.
That's definitely doable, I think.0 -
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former legend wrote: »The benefits to the country far outweigh any loss that the tournament itself makes, background info on the 2011 tournament here:
http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/economic_indicators/NationalAccounts/impact-of-rugby-world-cup.aspx
And if the "loss" occurs because millions of Euro are paid by the tournament to IRFU and GAA for the use of stadia, it's a paper loss rather than a gaping hole in the accounts...
This.
The most conservative of estimates put the overall economic benefit of hosting a rugby world cup at over US$1billion.
On the balance sheet of the actual rugby figures, you would aim at a maximum of breaking even.
The tourism and increased consumption and bloated balance of payments is where the money is made, even if the rugby is a loss making event by a couple of hundred of million, it pales in comparrison with the overall economic benefit, hence why a Government would go guarantor on such a bid without reservation.
The GAA would not be allowed excessively profiteer off the event you would have to imagine also.0
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