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RWC Bid 2023/2027

  • 02-11-2013 10:41pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7 ✭✭✭ robsom


    Was looking a little further into IRFU's proposed rugby world cup host bid and surprisingly it is very realistic. As far as I can tell there are really only 4 nations in the running to host these rwc's - Argentina,Ireland,South Africa,Italy. There are 2 solid reasons for this. Australia,France,NZ,England would of all held the tournament in relatively recent times. You could argue that by this time it would be 20-24 years since 2003 when Australia hosted but South Africa/Argentina would be the next Southern Hemisphere nations in the queue. SA last hosted in 1995. The second reason is that former IRB chief exec Mike Miller acknowledged the risk of granting Japan the 2019 tournament. Taking the tournament away from the traditional rugby fan bases makes it unknown whether the Japanesse neutrals would help fill stadiums. This makes it unpredictable for the IRB when it comes to funding the game for the following 4 years. The 2023 & 2027 rwc hosts are likely to be announced before rwc2019 (final full submissions for 2023 rwc is March 2016) so the IRB will have no idea whether the tournament will be a success or not. The point being is that they wont give a rwc to the likes of Russia,USA,Canada so soon after Japan.

    The IRFU have picked only 6 cities/counties as these are set up to handle a heavy concentration of tourists. There's a good starting point on the stadium front with 7 ready or will be ready realitively soon. Casement Pk (38,000 after 80+ mill redevelopment), Ravenhill (18,000 after completion), Croke Pk (83,000), Aviva (50,000), RDS (23,000 proposed, currently looking for stadia naming rights before starting works), Thomand (26,500), Paírc Uí Chaomh (45,000 after 65+ mill redevelopment). Fitzgerald Stadium, Gaelic Grounds and Pearse Stadium will all need some further investment to pass but this will be done because that is likely to be the gaa's price for loaning their grounds. Musgrave Pk was proposed for an 18,000-20,000 capacity untill money ran dry and minor upgrades were done instead. Time is on the IRFU's side when it comes to making these improvements though.

    The IRFU hold's an advantage when it comes to rwc voting. As one of the founding members Ireland is entitled to 2 votes. Argentina and Italy have just 1 each. This means that Ireland could for instance cut a deal with South Africa - You vote for us in 2023, we vote for you 2027. Ireland could also gain Scotland's 2 votes if we grant them 5/6 of their rwc games in Edinburgh and so make Murrayfield part of the bid. The IRB have strongly indicated before that they don't want a flood of games outside of the host nations territory as happened in the past so an example of limiting a few games to Scotland and not including Wales or England in the bid is a likely scenario. It's also worth noting that the attendences for Argentina's recent home games (All Blacks aside) were particularly poor especially the Springbok game in Mendoza. If that continues it wont do their rwc chances much good.

    Anyway feel free to comment especially if you have any new info on this and sorry if this post was opened before.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,016 ✭✭✭ Bridge93


    robsom wrote: »
    Was looking a little further into IRFU's proposed rugby world cup host bid and surprisingly it is very realistic. As far as I can tell there are really only 4 nations in the running to host these rwc's - Argentina,Ireland,South Africa,Italy. There are 2 solid reasons for this. Australia,France,NZ,England would of all held the tournament in relatively recent times. You could argue that by this time it would be 20-24 years since 2003 when Australia hosted but South Africa would be the next Southern Hemisphere nation in the queue since they last hosted in 1995. The second reason is that former IRB chief exec Mike Miller acknowledged the risk of granting Japan the 2019 tournament. Taking the tournament away from the traditional rugby fan bases makes it unknown whether the Japanesse neutrals would help fill stadiums. This makes it unpridictable for the IRB when it comes to funding the game for the following 4 years. The 2023 & 2027 rwc hosts are likely to be announced before rwc2019 (final full submissions for 2023 rwc is March 2016) so the IRB will have no idea whether the tournament will be a success or not. The point being is that they wont give a rwc to the likes of Russia,USA,Canada so soon after Japan.

    The IRFU have picked only 6 cities/counties as these are set up to handle a heavy concentration of tourists. There's a good starting point on the stadium front with 7 ready or will be ready realitively soon. Casement Pk (38,000 after 80+ mill redevelopment), Ravenhill (18,000 after completion), Croke Pk (83,000), Aviva (50,000), RDS (23,000 proposed, currently looking for stadia naming rights before starting works), Thomand (26,500), Paírc Uí Chaomh (45,000 after 65+ mill redevelopment). Fitzgerald Stadium, Gaelic Grounds and Pearse Stadium will all need some further investment to pass. Musgrave Pk was proposed for an 18,000-20,000 capacity untill money ran dry and minor upgrades were done instead. Time is on the Governments and IRFU's side when it comes to making these improvements though.

    The IRFU hold's an advantage when it comes to rwc voting. As one of the founding members Ireland is entitled to 2 votes. Argentina and Italy have just 1 each. This means that Ireland could for instance cut a deal with South Africa - You vote for us in 2023, we vote for you 2027. Ireland could also gain Scotland's 2 votes if we grant them 2/3 of their rwc games in Edinburgh and so make Murrayfield part of the bid. Also worth noting is that the attendences for Argentina's recent home games (All Blacks aside) were particularly poor especially the Springbok game in Mendoza. If that continues it wont do their rwc chances much good.

    Anyway feel free to comment especially if you have any new info on this and sorry if this post was opened before.

    I had no idea this was even happening. If all your points are correct/possible then it sounds promising!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,415 Swiwi.


    robsom wrote: »
    Was looking a little further into IRFU's proposed rugby world cup host bid and surprisingly it is very realistic. As far as I can tell there are really only 4 nations in the running to host these rwc's - Argentina,Ireland,South Africa,Italy. There are 2 solid reasons for this. Australia,France,NZ,England would of all held the tournament in relatively recent times. You could argue that by this time it would be 20-24 years since 2003 when Australia hosted but South Africa would be the next Southern Hemisphere nation in the queue since they last hosted in 1995. The second reason is that former IRB chief exec Mike Miller acknowledged the risk of granting Japan the 2019 tournament. Taking the tournament away from the traditional rugby fan bases makes it unknown whether the Japanesse neutrals would help fill stadiums. This makes it unpridictable for the IRB when it comes to funding the game for the following 4 years. The 2023 & 2027 rwc hosts are likely to be announced before rwc2019 (final full submissions for 2023 rwc is March 2016) so the IRB will have no idea whether the tournament will be a success or not. The point being is that they wont give a rwc to the likes of Russia,USA,Canada so soon after Japan.

    The IRFU have picked only 6 cities/counties as these are set up to handle a heavy concentration of tourists. There's a good starting point on the stadium front with 7 ready or will be ready realitively soon. Casement Pk (38,000 after 80+ mill redevelopment), Ravenhill (18,000 after completion), Croke Pk (83,000), Aviva (50,000), RDS (23,000 proposed, currently looking for stadia naming rights before starting works), Thomand (26,500), Paírc Uí Chaomh (45,000 after 65+ mill redevelopment). Fitzgerald Stadium, Gaelic Grounds and Pearse Stadium will all need some further investment to pass. Musgrave Pk was proposed for an 18,000-20,000 capacity untill money ran dry and minor upgrades were done instead. Time is on the Governments and IRFU's side when it comes to making these improvements though.

    The IRFU hold's an advantage when it comes to rwc voting. As one of the founding members Ireland is entitled to 2 votes. Argentina and Italy have just 1 each. This means that Ireland could for instance cut a deal with South Africa - You vote for us in 2023, we vote for you 2027. Ireland could also gain Scotland's 2 votes if we grant them 2/3 of their rwc games in Edinburgh and so make Murrayfield part of the bid. Also worth noting is that the attendences for Argentina's recent home games (All Blacks aside) were particularly poor especially the Springbok game in Mendoza. If that continues it wont do their rwc chances much good.

    Anyway feel free to comment especially if you have any new info on this and sorry if this post was opened before.

    I think you can write SAs name on one of those bids which effectively out rules Argentina. So that leaves ireland v Italy for the other and with rugby politics the way it is Ireland should be home & hosed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7 ✭✭✭ robsom


    I think your completely right swiwi. I fully expect SA to get either of these world cups. Their crying out to get some use out of their 2010 wc stadia which barely get any usage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,063 ✭✭✭✭ wp_rathead


    Love to see Italy host RWC to be honest

    Obvo prefer Ireland but be good for Italian rugby


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,295 ✭✭✭✭ ArmaniJeanss


    robsom wrote: »
    Ireland could also gain Scotland's 2 votes if we grant them 2/3 of their rwc games in Edinburgh and so make Murrayfield part of the bid.

    I suspect this is incredibly optimistic, I'd expect the price of their votes to be 5 or 6 group games (some of them top games) and at least one KO game.
    Ditto for Wales 2 votes.
    This is going by the deal Wales got for 2015. You aren't dealing with village idiots there, they know what their support is actually worth.

    Also theres a mega thread somewhere about this with ~300 posts discussing it, you should hunt it down.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7 ✭✭✭ robsom


    Agreed it would help bring rugby on in their country which would be good for the game. But Italy will always have the stadiums so they'll get it one day anyway. But while were at the stage where for now the bidding process doesn't require all seater stadiums or extremely high standards which the likes of Fitzgerald or pearse stadium would never be able to meet or the tournament expands to more than 20 teams and more stadiums are required then Irelands best chance of hosting is sooner rather than later.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7 ✭✭✭ robsom


    Your correct on it likely been 5/6 games but the point was about Ireland having an advantage when it comes to rwc voting.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,283 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    robsom wrote: »
    Agreed it would help bring rugby on in their country which would be good for the game. But Italy will always have the stadiums so they'll get it one day anyway.
    Not true, many Italian soccer teams play in municipal stadiums but they want to develop their own stadiums to avoid paying rent for stadiums which are becoming outdated and no sign of investment in improving them. By the time these RWCs roll round, the big Italian soccer clubs will have developed their own stadiums and wont give them over to a rival sport during their season and many of the current municipal stadiums wont be much good.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7 ✭✭✭ robsom


    Newcastle, Aston villa, man city, Leicester, Leeds are just some of the clubs to lease their grounds for 2015 rwc during football season so I don't understand your point on what makes Italy different.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,503 ✭✭✭ wicklowwonder


    robsom wrote: »
    Was looking a little further into IRFU's proposed rugby world cup host bid and surprisingly it is very realistic. As far as I can tell there are really only 4 nations in the running to host these rwc's - Argentina,Ireland,South Africa,Italy. There are 2 solid reasons for this. Australia,France,NZ,England would of all held the tournament in relatively recent times. You could argue that by this time it would be 20-24 years since 2003 when Australia hosted but South Africa would be the next Southern Hemisphere nation in the queue since they last hosted in 1995. The second reason is that former IRB chief exec Mike Miller acknowledged the risk of granting Japan the 2019 tournament. Taking the tournament away from the traditional rugby fan bases makes it unknown whether the Japanesse neutrals would help fill stadiums. This makes it unpredictable for the IRB when it comes to funding the game for the following 4 years. The 2023 & 2027 rwc hosts are likely to be announced before rwc2019 (final full submissions for 2023 rwc is March 2016) so the IRB will have no idea whether the tournament will be a success or not. The point being is that they wont give a rwc to the likes of Russia,USA,Canada so soon after Japan.

    The IRFU have picked only 6 cities/counties as these are set up to handle a heavy concentration of tourists. There's a good starting point on the stadium front with 7 ready or will be ready realitively soon. Casement Pk (38,000 after 80+ mill redevelopment), Ravenhill (18,000 after completion), Croke Pk (83,000), Aviva (50,000), RDS (23,000 proposed, currently looking for stadia naming rights before starting works), Thomand (26,500), Paírc Uí Chaomh (45,000 after 65+ mill redevelopment). Fitzgerald Stadium, Gaelic Grounds and Pearse Stadium will all need some further investment to pass. Musgrave Pk was proposed for an 18,000-20,000 capacity untill money ran dry and minor upgrades were done instead. Time is on the Governments and IRFU's side when it comes to making these improvements though.

    The IRFU hold's an advantage when it comes to rwc voting. As one of the founding members Ireland is entitled to 2 votes. Argentina and Italy have just 1 each. This means that Ireland could for instance cut a deal with South Africa - You vote for us in 2023, we vote for you 2027. Ireland could also gain Scotland's 2 votes if we grant them 5/6 of their rwc games in Edinburgh and so make Murrayfield part of the bid. Also worth noting is that the attendences for Argentina's recent home games (All Blacks aside) were particularly poor especially the Springbok game in Mendoza. If that continues it wont do their rwc chances much good.

    Anyway feel free to comment especially if you have any new info on this and sorry if this post was opened before.

    Can add Semple to this list as well, it's holds approx 55k and has had a bit of work done in last few years so sure it's up to the standard. Only thing is I wouldn't say Thurles has even 2,000 beds for fans. Fans could be bussed in and out I'd guess.

    Just have to make sure RWC fits around GAA calendar, GAA may ask the two Sundays for all ireland finals are kept free in exchange for their support. I presume the RWC will be in Seotember?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7 ✭✭✭ robsom


    This is not my fantasy list. The irfu have already nominated these. Tipperary doesn't have infrastructure. There's good reason why they selected these.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,503 ✭✭✭ wicklowwonder


    robsom wrote: »
    This is not my fantasy list. The irfu have already nominated these. Tipperary doesn't have infrastructure. There's good reason why they selected these.

    Oh ok sorry I didn't realise they had alright nominated stadiums.

    I wonder will the final be in the Aviva or Croke Park? Croker is bigger but Aviva may have commercial contracts in place forcing IRFU to use it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭ thomond2006


    Oh ok sorry I didn't realise they had alright nominated stadiums.

    I wonder will the final be in the Aviva or Croke Park? Croker is bigger but Aviva may have commercial contracts in place forcing IRFU to use it.

    The Aviva naming rights is only for 10 years, so it will be finished before any World Cup here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,206 ✭✭✭ DGRulz


    The Aviva naming rights is only for 10 years, so it will be finished before any World Cup here.

    Came here to say this. 2019 to be exact.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,283 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    robsom wrote: »
    Newcastle, Aston villa, man city, Leicester, Leeds are just some of the clubs to lease their grounds for 2015 rwc during football season so I don't understand your point on what makes Italy different.
    Regarding RWC 2015 venues, Newcastle, Aston villa and Leeds are the only soccer clubs who actually own the stadiums they play in. The other stadiums are either municipal, owned by rugby clubs or owned by private companies who lease them back to the soccer clubs, and it is in the owners interest to get as much use as possible from their stadiums. Viila Park and Elland Road will host 2 pool games each and St James Park will host 3 so not huge distruption there. Of the three soccer clubs who do own their stadium, they would all face competition from other local stadiums to host RWC games (Riverside Stadium and Stadium of Light in north east, St Andrew's or proposed City of Birmingham Stadium in Birmingham and numerous stadiums in and around Yorkshire) so hosting the RWC could happen without them but that would mean they forego a slice of the action. Italy is different because there will not be alternative stadiums available if the soccer teams dont want to be involved.
    Just have to make sure RWC fits around GAA calendar, GAA may ask the two Sundays for all ireland finals are kept free in exchange for their support. I presume the RWC will be in Seotember?
    I would be surprised if by 2023 the GAA calander has not changed to have the All Ireland Championships finished before September.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,503 ✭✭✭ wicklowwonder


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »

    I would be surprised if by 2023 the GAA calander has not changed to have the All Ireland Championships finished before September.

    Find that very unlikely. There would be uproar in GAA circles, if IRFU want to use GAA grounds I think they will have to agree to have two rest days on the two Sundays of the All-Irelands. They will be flexible by saying either 1st and 3rd Sunday or 2nd and 4th but that's in in terms of flexibility from the GAA I would imagine.

    GAA would be of the thought set the IRFU should move their RWC.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,415 Swiwi.


    Find that very unlikely. There would be uproar in GAA circles, if IRFU want to use GAA grounds I think they will have to agree to have two rest days on the two Sundays of the All-Irelands. They will be flexible by saying either 1st and 3rd Sunday or 2nd and 4th but that's in in terms of flexibility from the GAA I would imagine.

    GAA would be of the thought set the IRFU should move their RWC.

    Money talks. Won't be an issue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,943 ✭✭✭ jm08


    Find that very unlikely. There would be uproar in GAA circles, if IRFU want to use GAA grounds I think they will have to agree to have two rest days on the two Sundays of the All-Irelands. They will be flexible by saying either 1st and 3rd Sunday or 2nd and 4th but that's in in terms of flexibility from the GAA I would imagine.

    GAA would be of the thought set the IRFU should move their RWC.

    The most likely scenario is that the All-Irelands will be in Semple Stadium instead of Croke Park (and most likely why Semple was not included).

    I'd imagine the GAA would see it as an opportunity to showcase gaelic games to the world to have the games then.

    GAA congress voting on it:

    http://www.thescore.ie/gaa-rugby-world-cup-ireland-842806-Mar2013/


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,750 ✭✭✭ iDave


    jm08 wrote: »
    The most likely scenario is that the All-Irelands will be in Semple Stadium instead of Croke Park (and most likely why Semple was not included).

    I'd imagine the GAA would see it as an opportunity to showcase gaelic games to the world to have the games then.

    GAA congress voting on it:

    http://www.thescore.ie/gaa-rugby-world-cup-ireland-842806-Mar2013/

    Theres zero chance of All Irelands being taken out of Croke Park.


  • Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,424 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Clareman


    All Irelands won't be moved out of Croke Park, replays would be the only hassle and they don't happen too often, I'd imagine the GAA will give the dates their grounds can't be used and the fixtures will be set.

    I think the big thing here is the GAA getting their provincial grounds upgraded with very little costs to themselves, they won't make much noise about nor making grounds available. I would be surprised aswell if Wales and Scotland didn't get to play some of their pool games at home


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,564 ✭✭✭✭ Buer


    iDave wrote: »
    Theres zero chance of All Irelands being taken out of Croke Park.

    Indeed. Not a hope the GAA will alter over 100 years of their history to move the biggest occasion in their calendar and sacrifice 60,000 ticket sales in doing so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,283 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    Find that very unlikely. There would be uproar in GAA circles, if IRFU want to use GAA grounds I think they will have to agree to have two rest days on the two Sundays of the All-Irelands. They will be flexible by saying either 1st and 3rd Sunday or 2nd and 4th but that's in in terms of flexibility from the GAA I would imagine.

    GAA would be of the thought set the IRFU should move their RWC.
    Many believe the intercounty GAA season is too long (starting in January, stuttering along in fits and starts with multiple competitions and then ending in September) and there is a desire for a more streamlined season. The club game is very important to the GAA and the current intercounty arrangements damage it. Roscommon have already brought a motion before congress proposing to move the Hurling final to August. I think this will gain momentum and will be implemented within the next 10 years.

    And the GAA has altered its calendar before, in 1997 amendments were made to the format of the All Ireland Hurling Championshipsto allow beaten provincial finalists were allowed to re-enter the All Ireland series at the quarter final stage. The GAA calendar was adjusted at this time, the finals are now fixed relative to the last Sunday in September, not the first. No reason why changes cant happen again.


  • Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,424 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Clareman


    Buer wrote: »
    Indeed. Not a hope the GAA will alter over 100 years of their history to move the biggest occasion in their calendar and sacrifice 60,000 ticket sales in doing so.

    All Irelands would sell out even if they were played in December, the problem would be that the whole GAA calendar is centred around the 1st and 3rd Sundays in September, to bring the final into August it would mean starting in April instead of May and that would impact the league, college competitions and club finals


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,564 ✭✭✭✭ Buer


    Clareman wrote: »
    All Irelands would sell out even if they were played in December, the problem would be that the whole GAA calendar is centred around the 1st and 3rd Sundays in September, to bring the final into August it would mean starting in April instead of May and that would impact the league, college competitions and club finals

    My post was in relation to the GAA moving the finals to Thurles. They might well change the date but not a hope the venue.


  • Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,424 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Clareman


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Many believe the intercounty GAA season is too long (starting in January, stuttering along in fits and starts with multiple competitions and then ending in September) and there is a desire for a more streamlined season. The club game is very important to the GAA and the current intercounty arrangements damage it. Roscommon have already brought a motion before congress proposing to move the Hurling final to August. I think this will gain momentum and will be implemented within the next 10 years.

    And the GAA has altered its calendar before, in 1997 amendments were made to the format of the All Ireland Hurling Championshipsto allow beaten provincial finalists were allowed to re-enter the All Ireland series at the quarter final stage. The GAA calendar was adjusted at this time, the finals are now fixed relative to the last Sunday in September, not the first. No reason why changes cant happen again.

    The calendar was adjusted to allow for a couple of extra games, now there are alot more games, I don't think the hurling final will be brought into August in my life time to be honest, anyway this is the Rugby not the GAA forum, but shouldn't be discussing the GAA calendar here


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,943 ✭✭✭ jm08


    Buer wrote: »
    Indeed. Not a hope the GAA will alter over 100 years of their history to move the biggest occasion in their calendar and sacrifice 60,000 ticket sales in doing so.

    The 1984 All-Ireland Hurling Final was held in Semple for the 100th Anniversary of the founding of the GAA.

    There was even an All Ireland final held in New York in 1947!

    Being down 30K tickets x 2 would be well covered financially by the lease of the stadia.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭ P_1


    I'd imagine that the GAA would have no problem moving the finals to Thurles should the RWC come to Ireland. The money that would come from renting Croker out 3 or 4 times would more than make up for a shortfall of 30000 tickets being sold for two matches


  • Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,424 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Clareman


    jm08 wrote: »
    The 1984 All-Ireland Hurling Final was held in Semple for the 100th Anniversary of the founding of the GAA.

    There was even an All Ireland final held in New York in 1947!

    Being down 30K tickets x 2 would be well covered financially by the lease of the stadia.
    10 year tickets, premium level and corporate boxes mean that they won't be moving a final again


  • Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,424 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Clareman


    €75 a ticket for 30,000 people is ~2.5 million, not to mention the fact that the All Irelands are the GAA showcases, not a hope will they move them for another sport's showcase
    P_1 wrote: »
    I'd imagine that the GAA would have no problem moving the finals to Thurles should the RWC come to Ireland. The money that would come from renting Croker out 3 or 4 times would more than make up for a shortfall of 30000 tickets being sold for two matches


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,943 ✭✭✭ jm08


    Clareman wrote: »
    10 year tickets, premium level and corporate boxes mean that they won't be moving a final again

    Plenty of time to signal that to 10 year ticket holders. Could give them first refusal on some of the rugby games that are held in Croke Park.

    Something like 95% voted in Congress to open the stadia, everyone in the GAA is behind this.


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