RWC Bid 2023/2027

sid waddell · 05-12-2013 2:45am

Realistic capacities for a Rugby World Cup for the 11 Irish stadiums I mentioned would probably be something like as follows, allowing for them being converted to all-seater for the tournament (they would not have to be permanently converted to all-seater):

Croke Park - 74k all seater
Lansdowne Road - 50k all-seater
RDS - 22K all seater
Thomond Park - 26k with terracing or circa 20k all-seater
Pairc Ui Chaoimh - 45k with terracing, circa 35k all seater but as I have said the terracing there is very unsuited to conversion to all seater
Pearse Stadium, Galway - circa 15/16k all-seater
Nowlan Park - circa 20k all seater
Casement Park - 37k all seater
Ravenhill - 18k with terracing, terraced section will probably stay terraced for the tournament
Fitzgerald Stadium, Killarney - circa 22k all seater
Celtic Park, Derry - circa 13k all seater

postitnote · 05-12-2013 8:35am

Very detailed posts Sid. Just one question. Do you think that all seater stadiums are necessary?

I seem to recall terracing at one or two of the regional stadiums in NZ and it seemed to work fine. In fact if anything I'd keep terracing as much as possible and also reintroduce it into 'Aviva'

Prop Joe · 05-12-2013 10:50am

sid waddell wrote: »

Croke Park will have to be "free" for at least two weeks before the tournament.

Why is this? Would there be a need for Croker so early in the competition?

former legend · 05-12-2013 10:55am

errlloyd wrote: »

That is some post Sid. I can't really think of any post with more work that I have seen in a while! Fair play and good effort. I think its fair to say we'll lose at least one quarter final, probably two as you say.

Its interesting that you're putting Ireland games in Croke Park - I presume the title sponsorship of the Aviva doesn't cover world cup games. I'd love one game, even the Namibia one to go up to Ravenhill (or other suitably sized Northern Irish Stadium) to demonstrate that this is a true cross border partnership.

Just on this, I think the Aviva deal will have expired by then (was it for ten years?). Presumably the naming rights will be re-sold but the new buyer will be aware of the RWC situation.

It would be great to see an Ireland game in Belfast but the financial viability of any RWC is dependent on ticket sales; I'd be shocked if any of the Ireland games were played in a stadium with less than 50,000 capacity (which rules out the north).

05-12-2013 11:04am

Amazing post.

Got even better when you called Lansdowne Road by its real name.

Much appreciated effort!

Pete_Cavan · 05-12-2013 11:25am

sid waddell wrote: »

Realistic capacities for a Rugby World Cup for the 11 Irish stadiums I mentioned would probably be something like as follows, allowing for them being converted to all-seater for the tournament (they would not have to be permanently converted to all-seater):

Croke Park - 74k all seater
Lansdowne Road - 50k all-seater
RDS - 22K all seater
Thomond Park - 26k with terracing or circa 20k all-seater
Pairc Ui Chaoimh - 45k with terracing, circa 35k all seater but as I have said the terracing there is very unsuited to conversion to all seater
Pearse Stadium, Galway - circa 15/16k all-seater
Nowlan Park - circa 20k all seater
Casement Park - 37k all seater
Ravenhill - 18k with terracing, terraced section will probably stay terraced for the tournament
Fitzgerald Stadium, Killarney - circa 22k all seater
Celtic Park, Derry - circa 13k all seater

I cant see Nowlan Park or Celtic Park being used, both require complete redevelopment but would not see enough use post RWC to justify this. Although it is possible thar the NI Executive might decide to throw money at a municipal stadium in Derry to bring a second northern city into the mix.

Pearse stadium also requires extensive redevelopment but Galway would have to be part of the bid. Perhaps a shared stadium to be the home of Galway GAA and Connacht Rugby is the way to go.

Vanolder · 05-12-2013 1:25pm

sid waddell wrote: »

I'm primarily a GAA fan but also have an interest in rugby. I've done out a plan about how a Rugby World Cup in Ireland would actually work in practice, based on previous tournaments.

The 2011 tournament used 12 stadiums, 2015 will use 13, while 2019 will use 11.

If we assume that any bid will need support from Wales and Scotland, likely involving those teams having one or two of their group matches in Cardiff/Edinburgh, the minimum any tournament here will need is nine stadiums. I'll go with 11 Irish stadiums for argument's sake.

These would be
Croke Park, Dublin
82k, can be easily converted to 74k all-seated for the tournament if deemed necessary, no work needed.

Lansdowne Road, Dublin
50k all-seated, no work needed.

Pairc Ui Chaoimh, Cork
45k, not all-seated. I've seen the proposals for the new Pairc Ui Chaoimh and it looks like a bit of a dog's dinner, in all honesty. Three sides of the the ground will remain pretty similar to what they are now, with 1970s terracing remaining behind the goals. This is not the type of terracing that can be easily converted to seating. Cork would have to be included in any bid however and this is the only viable option.

Fitzgerald Stadium, Killarney
Currently 43k but only 9k seated. Killarney is connected by rail, has an airport nearby. Connected by national primary road. Tourist hub so should be able to cater for visiting supporters. Fitzgerald Stadium would require major upgrading.

New Casement Park, Belfast (37k all-seated)
Will be part of any bid. However the rebuilding has run into legal problems with residents. Concerns remain about whether the site can cater for such a stadium and there is even talk about moving the site to nearby Musgrave Park. While the planned 2017 opening date is beginning to look optimistic, 2023 is plenty of time to get things sorted.

Thomond Park, Limerick
26k, not all-seated
Would certainly be a part of any bid. The Gaelic Grounds up the road from it holds 49,000. But do you really want a bid where three cities have more than one stadium? Likely that no work would be needed. Connected by airport, motorway and rail.

Pearse Stadium, Galway
Currently 26k with the vast majority standing. No airport, but well connected by motorway, rail and bus services. Galway is a tourist hub with enough hotel rooms to cater for supporters. Pearse Stadium would probably need one new stand to add to the existing one. However this would be problematic given that the stadium is hemmed in badly by housing - a whole host of legal issues re light etc would likely arise here. Any new stand would realistically have to buy and demolish a row of houses in what is an expensive area property-wise.

RDS, Dublin
Likely 22k all-seater by then. If the new proposal released this year goes through, the RDS could certainly hold matches, but this would be Dublin's third stadium in the bid and very much the poor relation of those three.

Celtic Park, Derry
22k currently but the vast majority standing. Derry is Ireland fourth largest city. If the bid is to be all-island it makes sense for it to be involved. Celtic Park would require significant upgrading. Rebuilding the Brandywell next door is another option. Derry is connected (poorly) by rail, national primary roads, it also has a small airport.

Ravenhill, Belfast
18k, mostly but not all-seated. Would likely be a part of any bid but could not expect to hold many matches given its small capacity.

Nowlan Park, Kilkenny:
Currently 24k with most seated. Connected by motorway and rail, a comfortable enough distance for people travelling from Dublin. Stadium will require upgrading - probably a new main stand. Kilkenny is a tourist town and well set up to cater for visitors.

Five of those stadiums are in Dublin/Belfast. The other three are in Munster, with one in the rest of Leinster, one in Connacht and one in the rest of Ulster.

Killarney would be the only town hosting a match, the others are all cities.

Six matches including two quarter-finals in my sample bid are played in Wales/Scotland, three in Cardiff, three in Edinburgh. 2015 has six matches in Wales, none in Scotland. 2007 had four in Wales, two in Scotland. Therfore Ireland would host 42 of the 48 matches.

Seven of the stadiums would be GAA venues, the other four existing rugby grounds. Lansdowne Road would likely host the opening match, with Croke Park the final, given its greater capacity.

Let's do out a sample group phase:

Group A
Ireland
Australia
Samoa
Georgia
Namibia

Group B
New Zealand
Wales
Italy
Tonga
Japan

Group C
South Africa
France
Fiji
Canada
Russia

Group D
England
Argentina
Scotland
USA
Romania

Based on 2023 dates, the tournament would likely start on Friday September 15 (not set in stone of course, it could be played a week later) with the final on Sunday October 29th (which would be a perfect weekend for the final as it's a bank holiday in Ireland).

Here's a sample fixture list based loosely on previous tournaments:

1. Fri Sep 15: Ireland v Samoa - Lansdowne Road (opening match)
2. Sat Sep 16: Wales v Japan - Pairc Ui Chaoimh, Cork
3. Sat Sep 16: New Zealand v ltaly Casement Park, Belfast
4. Sat Sep 16: Australia v Namibia - Thomond Park, Limerick
5. Sat Sep 16: USA v Romania - Nowlan Park, Kilkenny
6. Sun Sep 17 England v Argentina - Croke Park, Dublin
7. Sun Sep 17: South Africa v Fiji - Pearse Stadium, Galway
8. Sun Sep 17: France v Canada - Ravenhill, Belfast
9. Tues Sep 19: Georgia v Samoa - Thomond Park
10. Wed Sep 20: Wales v Tonga - Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
11. Wed Sep 20: Scotland v Romania - Murrayfield, Edinburgh
12. Thurs Sep 21: Canada v Russia - RDS, Dublin
13. Fri Sep 22: Ireland v Namibia - Croke Park, Dublin
14. Sat Sep 23: ltaly v Japan - Pearse Stadium, Galway
15. Sat Sep 23: South Africa v France - Lansdowne Road, Dublin
16. Sat Sep 23: England v USA - Pairc Ui Chaoimh, Cork
17. Sun Sep24: Argentina v Scotland - Murrayfield, Edinburgh
18. Sun Sep 24: New Zealand v Tonga - Lansdowne Road, Dublin
19. Mon Sep 25 Australia v Georgia - Fitzgerald Stadium, Killarney
20. Tues Sep 26: Fiji v Russia Nowlan Park, Kilkenny
21. Wed 27 Samoa v Namibia - Celtic Park, Derry
22. Thurs Sep 28: England v Romania Casement Park, Belfast
23. Fri Sep 29: South Africa v Canada Fitzgerald Stadium, Killarney
24. Sat Sep 30 Ireland v Australia - Croke Park
25. Sat Sep 30: New Zealand v Japan - Thomond Park, Limerick
26. Sun Oct 1: Wales v ltaly - Lansdowne Road
27. Sun Oct 1:France v Russia Pairc Ui Chaoimh, Cork
28. Sun Oct 1: Scotland v USA, Ravenhill, Befast
29. Mon Oct 2: Argentina v Romania Celtic Park, Derry
30. Tues Oct 3: Fiji v Canada - Casement Parkl, Belfast
31. Tues October 3 Georgia v Namibia - RDS, Dublin
32. Wed Oct 4: Tonga Japan - Pairc Ui Chaoimh, Cork
33. Fri Oct 6: England v Scotland - Croke Park, Dublin
34. Sat Oct 7: Argentina v USA - Pearse Stadium, Galway
35. Sat Oct 7 Ireland v Georgia - Lansdowne Road, Dublin
36. Sat Oct 7: New Zealand v Wales - Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
37. Sat Oct 7: South Africa v Russia Ravenhill, Belfast
38. Sun Oct 8: France v Fiji - Thomond Park Limerick
39. Sun Oct 8: ltaly v Tonga - RDS, Dublin
40. Sun Oct 8 Australia v Samoa - Casement Park, Belfast

Quarter-Finals:

Saturday October 14th
3: C1 France V D2 Argentina Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
1: A1 Ireland v B2 Wales Lansdowne Road, Dublin
Sunday October 15th
4: D1 England V C2 South Africa Murrayfield, Edinburgh
2: B1 New Zealand V A2 Australia Croke Park, Dublin

Semi-Finals
Saturday October 21st
W1 Ireland V W4 England Croke Park, Dublin
Sunday October 22nd
W2 New Zealand V W3 France Croke Park, Dublin

3rd place play-off:
Friday October 27th - Lansdowne Road, Dublin

Final:
Sunday October 29th - Croke Park, Dublin

There are a few issues that have to be addressed.

i)That five of the 11 Irish stadiums would be in two cities. This is not ideal, but there is no way around it and any bid will have to live with this.

ii) The two highest capacity stadiums in Croke Park and Lansdowne Road are both in Dublin.

iii) In New Zealand 2011, the two largest stadiums (Eden Park Auckland and Westpac Stadium, Wellington) hosted all four quarter finals between them. If all four quarter-finals were to be held in our two largest stadiums, that means Croke Park and Lansdowne Road. But hosting four quarter-finals in Dublin on one weekend would be chaos and cannot be done. At least one and likely two of the quarter-finals would have to be held in either Belfast and/or Cork if all four were to be held in Ireland. However, there has to be a question mark whether either the new Casement Park and/or the new Pairc Ui Chaoimh would be of the standard required to host a quarter-final.

By far the most likely way out of this, and what would almost certainly happen, is that at least one of the quarter-finals will be in Cardiff and/or Edinburgh.

iv) Croke Park will have to be "free" for at least two weeks before the tournament. In a normal year the All-Ireland football final would be on September 17th or 24th (it has alternated between the third and fourth Sundays over the last two decades). If the RWC started on September 15th, that would mean the very latest a match could be played at Croke Park would be Sunday September 3rd. Allowing for a replay in either the football or hurling final, you'd realistically need to push the football final forward to Sunday August 26th, in the event of the World Cup starting on September 15th.

v) The timeframe for the Rugby World Cup is the peak season for the latter stages of the county club championships. Arrangements re fixtures would have to be worked out. I don't see this presenting a major problem, though.

Seven of the stadiums I've listed as part of the bid are GAA stadiums. The impact on the respective county championships could be minimised in most cases by using secondary county grounds .

Instead of Pearse Stadium, Tuam, Athenry and Ballinasloe could be used for the Galway championships.

Austin Stack Park in Tralee and Pairc Ui Rinn in Cork could be used instead of Fitzgerald Stadium, Killarney and Pairc Ui Chaoimh.

Derry's new ground at Owenbeg could be used in place of Celtic Park.

Antrim and Kilkenny would find it a bit harder to find replacement venues for Casement Park and Nowlan Park but those grounds would be ready to go again for GAA action by mid October at the latest.

vi) One other thing that would have to be accommodated is Ireland's qualifying games for Euro 2024. September and October 2023 will be key dates for these matches and Ireland would normally be expected to have at least one home match, and more likely two, between the early September and mid-October dates. This poses a scheduling problem. Could Ireland host an early September qualifier given that the Rugby World Cup would start on September 15th? Doubtful. And a home match on the mid-October date would certainly be ruled out if Lansdowne Road was to host a quarter-final.

Breakdown of matches by venue:

Croke Park - 8
Sun Sep 17 England v Argentina
Fri Sep 22: Ireland v Namibia
Sat Sep 30 Ireland v Australia
Fri Oct 6: England v Scotland
1 quarter-final
2 semi-finals
The final

Lansdowne Road - 7
Fri Sep 15: Ireland v Samoa
Sat Sep 23: South Africa v France
Sun Sep 24: New Zealand v Tonga
Sun Oct 1: Wales v ltaly
Sat Oct 7: Ireland v Georgia
1 quarter-final
3rd/4th place play-off

Pairc Ui Chaoimh, Cork - 4
Sat Sep 16: Wales v Japan
Sat Sep 23: England v USA
Sun Oct 1: France v Russia
Wed Oct 4: Tonga v Japan

Thomond Park, Limerick - 4
Sat Sep 16: Australia v Namibia
Tue Sep 19: Georgia v Samoa
Sat Sep 30: New Zealand v Japan
Sun Oct 8: France v Fiji

Casement Park, Belfast - 4
Sat Sep 16: New Zealand v ltaly
Thurs Sep 28: England v Romania
Tues Oct 3: Fiji v Canada
Sun Oct 8 Australia v Samoa

Millennium Stadium, Cardiff -3
Wed Sep 20: Wales v Tonga
Sat Oct 7: New Zealand v Wales
1 quarter-final

Murrayfield, Edinburgh - 3
Wed Sep 20: Scotland v Romania
Sun Sep24: Argentina v Scotland
1 quarter-final

RDS, Dublin - 3
Thurs Sep 21: Canada v Russia
Tues October 3 Georgia v Namibia
Sun Oct 8: ltaly v Tonga

Ravenhill, Belfast - 3
Sun Sep 17: France v Canada
Sun Oct 1: Scotland v USA
Sat Oct 7: South Africa v Russia

Pearse Stadium Galway - 3
Sun Sep 17: South Africa v Fiji
Sat Sep 23: ltaly v Japan
Sat Oct 7: Argentina v USA

Fitzgerald Stadium, Killarney - 2
Mon Sep 25: Australia - Georgia
Fri Sep 29: South Africa v Canada

Nowlan Park, Kilkenny - 2
Sat Sep 16: USA v Romania
Tues Sep 26: Fiji v Russia

Celtic Park, Derry - 2
Wed 27 Samoa v Namibia
Mon Oct 2: Argentina v Romania

Are you for real Sid? Even Art is laughing at you at this stage...

sid waddell · 05-12-2013 2:04pm

postitnote wrote: »

Very detailed posts Sid. Just one question. Do you think that all seater stadiums are necessary?

I seem to recall terracing at one or two of the regional stadiums in NZ and it seemed to work fine. In fact if anything I'd keep terracing as much as possible and also reintroduce it into 'Aviva'

I'd prefer to see as much terracing as possible myself, however the trend seems to be going more and more towards all-seater stadiums and I'm just trying to be realistic about what organisers might demand.

sid waddell · 05-12-2013 2:21pm

Prop Joe wrote: »

Why is this? Would there be a need for Croker so early in the competition?

I would imagine organisers would want any GAA stadiums being used to be free for the maximum possible time before the tournament. With Croke Park you have to allow for the possibility of a replay in either the hurling or football finals (or both). If the RWC started on the 15th and the All-Ireland football final was played on August 26th, that would allow for a replay to still be played in Croke Park if needed.

When the Olympics was in Sydney in 2000 (it also started on September 15th) the AFL Grand Final was pushed forward to September 2nd - in a normal year it would have been played on September 30th.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I cant see Nowlan Park or Celtic Park being used, both require complete redevelopment but would not see enough use post RWC to justify this. Although it is possible thar the NI Executive might decide to throw money at a municipal stadium in Derry to bring a second northern city into the mix.

Pearse stadium also requires extensive redevelopment but Galway would have to be part of the bid. Perhaps a shared stadium to be the home of Galway GAA and Connacht Rugby is the way to go.

GAA and rugby actually used to share the Sportsground in Galway back in the 1950s before the GAA developed Pearse Stadium. I don't see the GAA and rugby sharing a ground in Galway again however as each has thrown too much into development of their own grounds at this stage.

If Pearse Stadium was ruled out as a venue the Sportsground could conceivably be brought up to RWC standard, with a capacity maybe somehere around 20k.

Nowlan Park is a pretty decent ground as it is and while it would still require work I think it would be a good venue.

Derry hosted the Fleadh Cheoil very successfully this year which shows it can cope with major events. While rugby is not a big game there, it would add a lot to the bid to have a second northern city involved and most of the money to develop Celtic Park would probably come from the NI executive, particularly if you had somebody like Martin McGuinness batting for the proposal.

Podge_irl · 05-12-2013 3:01pm

I think, bid wise, we'd be better off spending money on getting a stadium in Derry up to standard then spending it on a stadium in killarney or mayo. You want as many cities as possible involved in this bid.

its_phil · 05-12-2013 3:20pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

I think, bid wise, we'd be better off spending money on getting a stadium in Derry up to standard then spending it on a stadium in killarney or mayo. You want as many cities as possible involved in this bid.

Leaving Killarney out would be a big mistake in my opinion. Very good tourist spot and has a 43,000 capacity ground.

Larbre34 · 05-12-2013 3:31pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

I think, bid wise, we'd be better off spending money on getting a stadium in Derry up to standard then spending it on a stadium in killarney or mayo. You want as many cities as possible involved in this bid.

Yeah all due respect to Derry-Londonderry for its resurgent cultural assets but it has to be Killarney for the tourist factor, the town itself is a bit plastic but the region is beautiful, plus it has the hotel infrastructure to host fans for an extended period of time.

For me it should be Dublin x 3, Limerick x 2, Belfast x 2, Cork x 1, Galway x 1, Killarney x 1, Thurles, Castlebar and/or Kilkenny x 1. That gives you 11/12 venues and keeps its simple, no need for token games in Wales etc.

ArmaniJeanss · 05-12-2013 3:34pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Yeah all due respect to Derry-Londonderry for its resurgent cultural assets but it has to be Killarney for the tourist factor, the town itself is a bit plastic but the region is beautiful, plus it has the hotel infrastructure to host fans for an extended period of time.

For me it should be Dublin x 3, Limerick x 2, Belfast x 2, Cork x 1, Galway x 1, Killarney x 1, Thurles, Castlebar and/or Kilkenny x 1. That gives you 11/12 venues and keeps its simple, no need for token games in Wales etc.

Out of interest how do you see the 4 quarter finals being arranged then?

Podge_irl · 05-12-2013 3:41pm

Killarney was perhaps a bad example, but I'd definitely want a game in Derry long before I'd want to see one in Thurles or Castlebar.

Its the 4th biggest city on the island, it would just be weird to not see it included if games are going to towns of 10,000 people (though I think Thurles is a complete non-runner, and the IRFU know that too).

sid waddell · 05-12-2013 3:44pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Yeah all due respect to Derry-Londonderry for its resurgent cultural assets but it has to be Killarney for the tourist factor, the town itself is a bit plastic but the region is beautiful, plus it has the hotel infrastructure to host fans for an extended period of time.

For me it should be Dublin x 3, Limerick x 2, Belfast x 2, Cork x 1, Galway x 1, Killarney x 1, Thurles, Castlebar and/or Kilkenny x 1. That gives you 11/12 venues and keeps its simple, no need for token games in Wales etc.

The problem with having say, Thurles or Castlebar as hosts is accommodation.

Take Thurles. It has a stadum that could probably host matches with relatively minor upgrading, it's connected by rail and is just off the Dublin-Cork motorway.

But it has a real lack of accommodation and that's why it almost certainly won't be a part of any bid. The same probably applies to Castlebar.

Killarney on the other hand does have adequate accommodation to cater for such an event, in my opinion.

Ideally of course every match would be held in Ireland but that isn't realistic due to politics.

Larbre34 · 05-12-2013 6:53pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Out of interest how do you see the 4 quarter finals being arranged then?

RWC 2011 held the 4 QFs, 2 each in the 2 main stadiums of Auckland and Wellington, one at 60,000 capacity and the other less the 40,000. We could better that with any number of combinations of Lansdowne, Croker, Cork, Belfast, Limerick, Killarney. Not a bother

jm08 · 05-12-2013 7:09pm

sid waddell wrote: »

The problem with having say, Thurles or Castlebar as hosts is accommodation.

Take Thurles. It has a stadum that could probably host matches with relatively minor upgrading, it's connected by rail and is just off the Dublin-Cork motorway.

But it has a real lack of accommodation and that's why it almost certainly won't be a part of any bid. The same probably applies to Castlebar.

Killarney on the other hand does have adequate accommodation to cater for such an event, in my opinion.

Ideally of course every match would be held in Ireland but that isn't realistic due to politics.

How many travelling supporters will some of the SH teams have though? Ireland isn't a very big place - with a rail connection it would be very easy to get people in and out in the one day.

Similar for Castlebar. You are probably talking about 40K at the most for some of those games.

ArmaniJeanss · 05-12-2013 7:15pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

RWC 2011 held the 4 QFs, 2 each in the 2 main stadiums of Auckland and Wellington, one at 60,000 capacity and the other less the 40,000. We could better that with any number of combinations of Lansdowne, Croker, Cork, Belfast, Limerick, Killarney. Not a bother

Fair enough, I hadn't realised the 1/4 finals had used such a small secondary venue (I assume Christchurch was the original choice pre quake?).

FWIW, I do think our bid could suffer if we go with 'much the same as 2011' attitude for such key components.
By the time of this decision (2016 I think) the most recent reference point will be RWC2015, and the 2011 edition may look very quaint and archaic.

sid waddell · 05-12-2013 7:22pm

jm08 wrote: »

How many travelling supporters will some of the SH teams have though? Ireland isn't a very big place - with a rail connection it would be very easy to get people in and out in the one day.

Similar for Castlebar. You are probably talking about 40K at the most for some of those games.

There are big expat communities of Australians, South Africans and New Zealanders in Britain and the rest of Europe.

I don't know how many would travel but I would expect a sizeable amount to do so.

sid waddell · 05-12-2013 7:25pm

Let's see how Ireland would be likely to measure up against previous tournaments in terms of ticket sales, stadium capacities and attendances:

New Zealand 2011 - the stadiums, their capacities, number of matches hosted and finally the total capacity of each stadium for the tournament as a whole.

Eden Park, Auckland: (60k) 11 matches - 660,000 total capacity over those 11 matches

Westpac Stadium, Wellington: (40k) - 8. - 320,000

Otago Stadium, Dunedin: (30k) - 4 - 120,000

North Harbour Stadium, Auckland: (30k) - 4 - 120,000

Waikato Stadium, Hamilton: (36k) - 3 - 108,000

International Stadium, Rotorua: (34k) - 3 - 102,000

Taranaki Stadium, New Plymoith: (26k) - 3 - 78,000

Rugby Park, Invercargill: (20k) - 3 - 60,000

Trafalgar Park, Nelson: (18k)- 3 - 54,000

McLean Park, Napier: (22k) - 2 - 44,000

Northland Events Centre, Whangarei: (18k) - 2 - 36,000

Manawatu Arena, Palmerston North: (15k) - 2 - 30,000

Total capacity for the tournament - 1,732,000

Total tournament attendance: 1,477,294 (30,777 per match)

85.294% of tickets were sold at New Zealand 2011.

The same for France 2007:

Stade de France - 80,000 - 7 matches - 560,000 total capacity

Millennium Stadium, Cardiff - 74,500 - 4 - 298,000

Murrayfield, Edinburgh - 67,167 - 2 - 134,334

Stade Velodrome Marseille - 59,500 - 6 - 357,000

Parc des Princes, Paris 47, 870 - 5 - 239,350

Stade Felix Bollaert, Lens - 41,400 - 3 - 124,200

Srade Gerland, Lyon - 41,100 - 3 - 123,300

Stade de la Beaujoire, Nantes - 38,100 - 3 - 114,300

Stadium Toulouse - 35,700 - 4 - 107,100

Srade Geoffroy Guichard - 35,650 - 3 - 106,950

Stade Chaban-Delmas, Bordeaux -34,440 - 4 - 137,760

Stade de la Mosson, Montpellier - 33,900 - 4 - 135,600

Total tournament capacity: 2,434,894

Total tournament attendance: 2,263,223 (47,150 per match)

That means 92.949% of tickets were sold.

sid waddell · 05-12-2013 7:29pm

England 2015

Twickenham - 82,000 - 10 matches - 820,000 total capacity

Wembley - 90,000 - 2 matches - 180,000

Millennium Stadium - 74, 500 - 8 matches - 596,000

Olympic Stadium, London - 54,000 - 5 matches - 270,000

City of Manchester Stadium - 61,500 - 1 matches - 61,500

St James's Park, Newcastle - 52,387 - 3 matches - 157,161

Villa Park - 42,788 - 2 matches - 85,576

Elland Road - 37,900 - 2 matches - 75,800

Leicester City Stadium - 32,262 matches - 3 - 96786

Sandy Park, Exeter - 20,600 - 3 matches - 61,800

Milton Keynes Stadium - 32,000 - 3 matches - 96,000

Brighton Stadium - 30,750 - 2 matches - 61,500

Kingsholm, Gloucester - 16,500 - 4 matches - 66,000

Total capacity available: 3,181,613

Ireland would not be able to match that type of total capacity. However England's use of modest club grounds like Sandy Park in Exeter and Kingsholm in Gloucester shows that stadiums like Pearse Stadium and Nowlan Park could be used with relatively minor upgrading.

These are my calculations using what I see as realistic estimates of the capacities for the stadiums in my sample bid. This includes use of seating in place of existing terracing in some but not all cases.

Croke Park (74k all seater) - 8 matches - 592,000 total capacity

Lansdowne (50k all seater) - 7 - 350,000

Millennium Stadium Cardiff (74.5k all seater) - 3 - 223,500

Murrayfield, Edinburgh (67,167 all seater) - 3 - 201,501

Pairc Ui Chaoimh, Cork (35k all seater) - 4 - 140,000

Thomond Park, Limerick (26k including terracing) - 4 - 104,000

Casement Park, Belfast (37k all seater) - 4 - 148,000

RDS - (22k all seater) - 3 - 66,000

Ravenhill - (18k including terracing) - 3 - 54,000

Fitzgerald Stadium Killarney (22k all seater ) - 2 - 44,000

Nowlan Park, Kilkenny (20k all seater) - 2 - 40,000

Celtic Park, Derry - (15k all seater) - 2 - 30,000

Pearse Stadium, Galway (17k all seater) - 3 - 51,000

Total capacity: 2,044,001

Average capacity per match: 42, 583

That would leave total tournament capacity a good 300,000 ahead of New Zealand 2011 but around 400,000 behind France 2007.

If you include more terracing in some grounds you could probably bump total capacity up by 100,000 or so.

I'll have to do further calculations against the average ticket prices of previous tournaments to determine if this would be enough for an Ireland 2023 tournament to make a profit.

Bear in mind that New Zealand 2011 made a loss of around $NZ31m (around €18m).

One more thing to note is that Wales actually host 8 matches in the 2015 tournament, not 6 as I previously said. So the pound of flesh they extract in return for backing an Irish bid could be expensive.

Podge_irl · 06-12-2013 11:16am

jm08 wrote: »

How many travelling supporters will some of the SH teams have though? Ireland isn't a very big place - with a rail connection it would be very easy to get people in and out in the one day.

Similar for Castlebar. You are probably talking about 40K at the most for some of those games.

People don't want to get in and out in one day for a RWC. They want to stay in the town the match is on in.

A game in Thurles would be unimaginably **** for visiting fans.

former legend · 06-12-2013 11:44am

sid waddell wrote: »

But it has a real lack of accommodation and that's why it almost certainly won't be a part of any bid. The same probably applies to Castlebar.

Oh really?

overshoot · 06-12-2013 12:53pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Yeah all due respect to Derry-Londonderry for its resurgent cultural assets but it has to be Killarney for the tourist factor, the town itself is a bit plastic but the region is beautiful, plus it has the hotel infrastructure to host fans for an extended period of time.

Killarney is there because of the stadium, end of (and rightly so btw it has enough going for it) but the rest is way off, there is enough scenery within a stones throw of Derry, cultural assets are tourist assets & a city with 80k more in it will have just as much hotel infrastructure!

Logistically Derry should be there given its size & regional aspect (surely you want to stretch the fans out over the island, especially to a city with rail/air links) but this bid is basically being done on a budget which doesn't leave room for major stadium revamps beyond whats proposed. Celtic Park is already in line for some works (p23) but it probably needs a new stand

In partnership with Derry City Council complete the final phase of the Celtic Park redevelopment which includes:

Redevelopment of existing changing facilities block to include; Six fit for purpose changing rooms, warm up and shower facilities, function room, 3 referee rooms, meeting room for 20
people, Office facilities for Regional staff, first aid room, appropriate storage and supporting press facilities

Redevelopment of front fencing and access to the Stadium

Car parking upgrade

With a few million Celtic Park could be included but the biggest game it would hold would probably be Fiji/Samoa v qualifier. Is Ravenhill/RDS already catering for that though? Do we need another ground at that level? or is it more beneficial to be spreading the tournament about more?

Also on another note we would be well catered for training camps with LOI grounds added. Here you could involve other areas such as longford, sligo, athlone, donegal (should finn park 2 ever happen), brandywell (getting Maze money), tallaght, cork, market's fields in limerick (proposed) maybe dundalk & waterford. then irish League & other county grounds

Cosmo Kramer · 06-12-2013 2:53pm

Sid, your post is very interesting but I think it is way off in terms of the amount of investment that will be put into this. For example you suggest major renovation of Nowlan and Celtic parks for the sake of two relatively lower level games each in the context of the competition. No way is that going to be happening. It will have to be based on the stadiums we already have with inexpensive cosmetic improvements more than anything. Nowlan may have a chance of some minor upgrade work to host a few games, but I can't see any possibility of Derry getting involved.

Podge_irl · 06-12-2013 3:40pm

If the bid is based on minor cosmetic improvements to existing stadia its already dead in the water. Most of the GAA stadiums mentioned need massive investment to get them up to standard.

case885 · 08-12-2013 9:46pm

Not being allowed to use terracing will be the biggest downfall i would imagine alot of the gaa stadiums are half if not more without seats. Big investments hopefully the gaa might cough up some of the cash there sitting on.

OldRio · 08-12-2013 9:58pm

case885 wrote: »

Not being allowed to use terracing will be the biggest downfall i would imagine alot of the gaa stadiums are half if not more without seats. Big investments hopefully the gaa might cough up some of the cash there sitting on.

Is that correct?

Podge_irl · 08-12-2013 10:04pm

There is no requirement to have all seaters that I'm aware of. Would see no reason why there would be, they're fine for internationals as is.

thomond2006 · 08-12-2013 10:51pm

I'd like to think Casement Park would get an Ireland pool match, even if it just a minnow match.

case885 · 09-12-2013 10:34pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

There is no requirement to have all seaters that I'm aware of. Would see no reason why there would be, they're fine for internationals as is.

My bad, thats great if you are terracing is an advantage if anything in stadiums.

case885 · 09-12-2013 11:17pm

Cant believe how much the ni executive is pumping into stadia in the north, glad to see the brits pay for it anyway

.. 110m altogether, cant see the irish government pumping €150 m into stadia in south but surely a deal could be struck that if they do help with funding to redevelop they wont have to pay rent and also gaa will get big coverage around the world. Looking at the 3 being redeveloped in the north they certainly dont like terracing

Podge_irl · 09-12-2013 11:22pm

Jesus....I would have thought more than €150m would be needed to bring all the stadia up to standard.

The current govt at least are in this one for the long haul. 200m spent developing infrastructure will be repaid a couple times over with the income from the tournament and we'll end up with renovated stadia that we'll actually still use.

case885 · 09-12-2013 11:40pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Jesus....I would have thought more than €150m would be needed to bring all the stadia up to standard.

The current govt at least are in this one for the long haul. 200m spent developing infrastructure will be repaid a couple times over with the income from the tournament and we'll end up with renovated stadia that we'll actually still use.

Yes i think they will too and also it would be a huge boost to construction sector so big help to unemployment so i would think they can afford to spend it on the stadia, but surely they shouldnt have to pay rent if they are going to develope stadia.. Gaa could also refuse to i suppose and want the rent instead if they are greedy.

RugbyLover123 · 09-12-2013 11:41pm

At least the money being pumped into redevelopment of the stadiums will be a good investment as the stadiums will be always well used afterwards.. Unlike the countless millions spent on the some of the stadiums in South Africa & Brazil for the football world cup

its_phil · 09-12-2013 11:52pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'd like to think Casement Park would get an Ireland pool match, even if it just a minnow match.

It's part of the plan IIRC. It is going to be fantastic once it is finished, provided the trouble with locals is dealt with

ArmaniJeanss · 10-12-2013 12:21am

RugbyLover123 wrote: »

At least the money being pumped into redevelopment of the stadiums will be a good investment as the stadiums will be always well used afterwards.. Unlike the countless millions spent on the some of the stadiums in South Africa & Brazil for the football world cup

Not sure where this urban legend about the South Africa stadia came from, probably a mythical stick to beat football/FIFA and the ANC with.

But bar one or two exceptions these grounds get good use, they regularly get anywhere between 20,000 and 40,000 for both Super 15 and Currie Cup Rugby games, those crowds maybe 10 or 12 times a year in the relevant grounds (not something that happens in GAA where the provincial venues will often get one big game every 2 years).
Some also get cricket 1 day internationals, and have become the de facto concert venue in the cities also.
Their use specifically in soccer is more limited admittedly but they aren't all white elephants.

RoyalCelt · 10-12-2013 5:56am

case885 wrote: »

Not being allowed to use terracing will be the biggest downfall i would imagine alot of the gaa stadiums are half if not more without seats. Big investments hopefully the gaa might cough up some of the cash there sitting on.

I hope for your sake your trolling. The GAA have no obligation to spend money to help a rival sporting body host a WC that would give Rugby a serious edge over GAA in this country. They have every right to rent out grounds even if they get help upgrading them.

GAA by far the biggest spectator sport in Ireland. It's not exactly a bad thing if the government puts more money into it. And it's not like that money just disappears into some suits back pocket like in the FAI. Less of the GAA bashing please and be glad then have opened the doors to other sports.

And incase you go into in, I didn't agree with their approach to "foreign" sports but you have to say after what the English did to us for 800 years you can see why. Sure were not even typing in our own language are we.

Teferi · 10-12-2013 10:55am

RoyalCelt wrote: »

after what the English did to us for 800 years you can see why. Sure were not even typing in our own language are we.

Lol.

thomond2006 · 10-12-2013 12:01pm

Teferi wrote: »

Lol.

Is maith liom cáca milis.

.ak · 10-12-2013 1:20pm

RoyalCelt wrote: »

I hope for your sake your trolling. The GAA have no obligation to spend money to help a rival sporting body host a WC that would give Rugby a serious edge over GAA in this country. They have every right to rent out grounds even if they get help upgrading them.

GAA by far the biggest spectator sport in Ireland. It's not exactly a bad thing if the government puts more money into it. And it's not like that money just disappears into some suits back pocket like in the FAI. Less of the GAA bashing please and be glad then have opened the doors to other sports.

And incase you go into in, I didn't agree with their approach to "foreign" sports but you have to say after what the English did to us for 800 years you can see why. Sure were not even typing in our own language are we.

.... aaaand we're not going to entertain that kind of debate here. There's other forums for that, it has nothing to do with rugby. Opening a tin of worms.

Howard Juneau · 10-12-2013 3:18pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Is maith liom cáca milis.

Thought you would have gone " is maith liom cáca bull hayes"

thomond2006 · 10-12-2013 3:24pm

Howard Juneau wrote: »

Thought you would have gone " is maith liom cáca bull hayes"

Ah jaysus

case885 · 10-12-2013 8:50pm

RoyalCelt wrote: »

I hope for your sake your trolling. The GAA have no obligation to spend money to help a rival sporting body host a WC that would give Rugby a serious edge over GAA in this country. They have every right to rent out grounds even if they get help upgrading them.

GAA by far the biggest spectator sport in Ireland. It's not exactly a bad thing if the government puts more money into it. And it's not like that money just disappears into some suits back pocket like in the FAI. Less of the GAA bashing please and be glad then have opened the doors to other sports.

And incase you go into in, I didn't agree with their approach to "foreign" sports but you have to say after what the English did to us for 800 years you can see why. Sure were not even typing in our own language are we.

I am a big gaa fan if you'd like to know and i think your bitterness towards other sports wont help gaa developing one bit. First of all the rugby world cup would benefit everyone in the country not just the irfu. You say they have every right to demand rent even if the stadiums are redeveloped? Yes the gaa is struggling with 53 million profit.. A cumulative world television audience of approximately 4.5 billion people would do the GAA no harm either.

RoyalCelt · 16-12-2013 8:03am

case885 wrote: »

I am a big gaa fan if you'd like to know and i think your bitterness towards other sports wont help gaa developing one bit. First of all the rugby world cup would benefit everyone in the country not just the irfu. You say they have every right to demand rent even if the stadiums are redeveloped? Yes the gaa is struggling with 53 million profit.. A cumulative world television audience of approximately 4.5 billion people would do the GAA no harm either.

The GAA don't have the potential revenue streams available to Rugby and Soccer. So kudos for them for doing so well. They deserve it.

As for my bitterness for other sports, I'm an avid soccer fan as well as a former Rugby player for 16 years. Just because I don't think the GAA should bend over backwards doesn't mean I hate Rugby.

Also sorry mod for going down that road. Not on here that long but can see why you would want to stay clear of that debate!

As I was saying: you wouldn't expect Sony for example to allow Microsoft to use their factories to build their new Xbox if they desperately needed them without paying a huge price. I'm not going to speak on behalf of the GAA but if I were them I'd be looking for a pretty penny and compensation for the extra exposure Rugby will get over GAA in this country on top of the use of their stadia.

It's a win win for me. Rugby gets a lot of publicity here and the GAA will be in a very sound financial state. My 2 favourite sports helping each-other out. That's what I like to see.

16-12-2013 2:52pm

Some light hearted reprieve..

http://balls.ie/rugby/rugby-world-cup-2023-preview/

Journeyman_1 · 16-12-2013 4:00pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Some light hearted reprieve..

http://balls.ie/rugby/rugby-world-cup-2023-preview/

That was special

Larbre34 · 16-12-2013 4:17pm

Who knew Murray Kidd and Mark McCafferty were separated at birth! I suppose it makes sense, both out to destroy Irish rugby.

That was good fun, fair play.

case885 · 16-12-2013 10:54pm

RoyalCelt wrote: »

The GAA don't have the potential revenue streams available to Rugby and Soccer. So kudos for them for doing so well. They deserve it.

As for my bitterness for other sports, I'm an avid soccer fan as well as a former Rugby player for 16 years. Just because I don't think the GAA should bend over backwards doesn't mean I hate Rugby.

Also sorry mod for going down that road. Not on here that long but can see why you would want to stay clear of that debate!

As I was saying: you wouldn't expect Sony for example to allow Microsoft to use their factories to build their new Xbox if they desperately needed them without paying a huge price. I'm not going to speak on behalf of the GAA but if I were them I'd be looking for a pretty penny and compensation for the extra exposure Rugby will get over GAA in this country on top of the use of their stadia.

It's a win win for me. Rugby gets a lot of publicity here and the GAA will be in a very sound financial state. My 2 favourite sports helping each-other out. That's what I like to see.

How would the gaa be bending over backwards if they get stadiums redeveloped, rent and world wide coverage? Gaa has 750,000 members while rugby has 155,000. It will always be Irelands no. 1 sport, the gaa is alot more financially stable than gaa and i dont think theyd be helping the rugby out by squeezing every penny out of them.

neiljung · 03-01-2014 12:39pm

Some very interesting points on this, I think having dreamed of an Irish RWC for years though that tickets will really be our biggest problem. Looking at what they are charging in England has me and anyone I know who'd regularly follow rugby having second thoughts about going at all. Selling over 2 million tickets into the Irish market will be a big ask. That's about 1 in every 3 people on the island buying a ticket and whilst the more interested will obviously go to more you're limited in how many matches you can attend as they are usually clustered around the weekend. It's why I think Millennium Stadium will have to be used to make the finances work. Give it say 4 group matches and 2 QFs and that's over 400k tickets sold at high enough rates. It ups your overall tournament capacity by a couple of 100ks reduces the tickets for sale in Ireland to closer to 1.75 million.

I don't think the current H-Cup/Pro 12 uncertainty helps either. Selling tickets on the back of successful provinces where all the stars are national celebrities seemed a lot more certain this time last year when 2023 looked like being the 29th year of the H-Cup. The great uncertainties around the short/medium term future of NH rugby make the venture riskier than you would have thought previously. In 2023 will there still be pro rugby in Scotland and Italy and even Wales? The tearing up of the H-Cup is even starting to put the administration of the 6 nations in doubt. Yes you do need to accept a lot of uncertainties when planning so far ahead but trying to guess what the structure of rugby will be like in 2 years never mind 8 is a tough call at present.

I think NZ is a very useful comparison of what can be done in a smallish country with very little infrastructure spend but it did have the advantage of being a 'rugby' country at heart. Many Kiwis went back to grounds they hadn't been in since they were kids. They got wrapped up in the whole event and then popped down to the local stadium they used to watch their local NPC side play in. It's why you got sell outs in small provincial towns for matches between minnows. Whilst we're not short of bandwagoners/event junkies over here we're short of mass general rugby support outside of Dublin/Limerick/Cork/Belfast. Shifting 40k tickets in Killarney for a weekend when Ireland are playing in Dublin, All Blacks in Belfast and England in Cork would be pretty difficult methinks.

Speaking of South Africa many of the stadiums are complete white elephants. Newlands in Cape Town still hosts nearly all of the rugby and not the new ground out by the harbour. The greatest white elephants were used for last year's African Nation's Cup see 'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Africa_Cup_of_Nations' and the results weren't pretty, 2k at a match in a 40k stadium, only 8k at one of the QFs and 6k at the third fourth playoff. SA went overly down the road of spreading the grounds out geographically (which FIFA/IRB/UEFA etc. love) but it's a huge long term waste just like Korea/Japan and what will happen with some of the Brazilian grounds.

RWC Bid 2023/2027

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