Antifa [Mod Warning on post #1 - updated 08/08/19]

paleoperson · 14-11-2019 5:20pm

20Cent wrote: »

Who wants borderless immigration?
No one seriously does yet it is proposed as if they is something "the left" want.

There is a major systematic failure of governance regarding immigration not just in Ireland but in the whole of europe. It has something to with the way immigrants are processed and the people involved with their attitudes and how the easiest thing for them to do is allow the immigrants - lies get put out all the time trying to suppress the numbers of immigrants. This sort of system is known as "borderless immigration" policies. It's obviously a hyperbolic term since there are still some checks in place, for example you're asked for you passport. But in many cases when people arrive on a ship claiming they have nothing, it's quite literally "borderless" immigration.

Immigration used to be confined to urban areas before where the numbers got swallowed up, but now small communities are getting flooded with immigrant amounts they can't handle and there seems no end to it. Rural communities are being destroyed.

Germany, France and most recently Sweden (who have had 100 bombings in the past year from immigrants) have been forced to terms with this systems failure in their governments. Far right wing powers are either coming into power across europe or are threatening to and forcing the incumbent governments to make fast changes. It's only the gombeens in Ireland who don't have a major right wing political party that is actually right wing.

20Cent wrote: »

This is because far right lie about it to make their own racist policies sound acceptable.

Rubbish.

20Cent wrote: »

How does the gender of others effect anyone else why not live and let live?

Quite a lot when it leads to teenagers or sometimes preteens getting operations or taking gender-bending medications that cause irreversible harm. Thankfully the entire thing is finally beginning to starting to fall apart now and the right are proven to have been "right" the entire time. They weren't being bigoted, they weren't being intolerant, it was the left who were being narrow-minded fools, unable to understand what they were doing.

Paediatricians are calling it child abuse, doctors are refusing to perform operations. Major lawsuits are being prepared for people who've been harmed by LGBT dogma. This should weigh heavily on the conscience of the left who were promoting these things.

20Cent · 14-11-2019 5:51pm

paleoperson wrote: »

There is a major systematic failure of governance regarding immigration not just in Ireland but in the whole of europe. It has something to with the way immigrants are processed and the people involved with their attitudes and how the easiest thing for them to do is allow the immigrants - lies get put out all the time trying to suppress the numbers of immigrants. This sort of system is known as "borderless immigration" policies. It's obviously a hyperbolic term since there are still some checks in place, for example you're asked for you passport. But in many cases when people arrive on a ship claiming they have nothing, it's quite literally "borderless" immigration.

Immigration used to be confined to urban areas before where the numbers got swallowed up, but now small communities are getting flooded with immigrant amounts they can't handle and there seems no end to it. Rural communities are being destroyed.

Germany, France and most recently Sweden (who have had 100 bombings in the past year from immigrants) have been forced to terms with this systems failure in their governments. Far right wing powers are either coming into power across europe or are threatening to and forcing the incumbent governments to make fast changes. It's only the gombeens in Ireland who don't have a major right wing political party that is actually right wing.

Rubbish.

Quite a lot when it leads to teenagers or sometimes preteens getting operations or taking gender-bending medications that cause irreversible harm. Thankfully the entire thing is finally beginning to starting to fall apart now and the right are proven to have been "right" the entire time. They weren't being bigoted, they weren't being intolerant, it was the left who were being narrow-minded fools, unable to understand what they were doing.

Paediatricians are calling it child abuse, doctors are refusing to perform operations. Major lawsuits are being prepared for people who've been harmed by LGBT dogma. This should weigh heavily on the conscience of the left who were promoting these things.

Most of Europe has right or center right governments so dunno why immigration numbers are the "fault" of the left.

Forcing kids to have sex changes sounds like Alex Jones bs.

FTA69 · 14-11-2019 6:22pm

Just on the BNP stuff as well. The BNP originally sought to carve out power bases in working class areas and employed extreme violence toward their enemies, a great book was written on the subject by a former member - “Hate” by Matt Collins. They once invaded an Indian women’s community meeting on the subject of racism and beat the f*ck out of the women present. It was only a militant and yes, violent campaign by working class left-wing activists who prevented them from achieving this and ran them off.

After that the BNP switched to a solely electoral strategy (and did well too for a while) and that kind of antifascism became redundant because the BNP weren’t mobbing the streets anymore. They thrived on a sense of working class abandonment and pulled votes on the back of it. In that context yeah, challenging their ideas on the telly and elsewhere etc was necessary and indeed it was useful.

But don’t be under any illusions about what the likes of the BNP, Tommy Robinson etc and that general scene is like. They’re violent thugs who will have no bother enforcing their own will on their perceived opponents.

In other words, it wasn’t just a sh*t interview on the telly that did in the BNP.

paleoperson · 14-11-2019 6:55pm

20Cent wrote: »

Forcing kids to have sex changes sounds like Alex Jones bs.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7604687/Jury-rules-against-dad-trying-stop-son-transitioning-girl.html

Feel free to pretend that the Daily Mail is an untrustworthy newspaper on matters like this and find it in your own political correct newspaper of choice.

James Brown · 14-11-2019 7:01pm

paleoperson wrote: »

Maybe if the left stopped with their stupid sjw crusades such as 81 genders and borderless immigration many on the right or even alt right could be persuaded to their side. Plenty on the right are highly disgruntled by large corporate culture and starting to support Yang in the next US presidential election, you just have to give them something that works and won't give away their entire country.

You don't need to be a commie pinko to agree on respect, decency and equality. It's not an 'either or', although the new emboldened Trumpesque right often sell it as such.
Most people on 'the left' just want equality and fairness. Vested interests and big money men are stirring the pot to fight this IMO.

20Cent · 14-11-2019 7:09pm

paleoperson wrote: »

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7604687/Jury-rules-against-dad-trying-stop-son-transitioning-girl.html

Feel free to pretend that the Daily Mail is an untrustworthy newspaper on matters like this and find it in your own political correct newspaper of choice.

That famous left wing place Texas.

Brian? · 14-11-2019 8:09pm

paleoperson wrote: »

. This should weigh heavily on the conscience of the left who were promoting these things.

Why do you think the left are so united on every social and economic issue? A constant brick thrown at the left is that it constantly eats it's own, which is unfortunately partly true.

The political left isn't some massive homogeneous grouping completely aligned on everything from transgender issues to wealth redistribution. We spend as much time arguing with each other as we do with the political right. Which is a strength and a weakness, it makes it easy to drive in wedge issues but welcomes free expression and thought.

I am deeply unhappy with some identarians on the left, not because they are wrong in what they say, because it distracts from the bigger issues like wealth disparity. The left's primary focus should always be on economic issues. Solidarity with minorities is always important, but it shouldn't be your main focus.

Having said this, one thing everyone on the left agrees with is that Fascists are bad news. Which is why we tend not to turn on Antifa. I abhore their violence and prison time is often appropriate, but their goal is to oppose Fascism and I'm alright with that.

paleoperson · 14-11-2019 9:14pm

20Cent wrote: »

That famous left wing place Texas.

You realize that it works against your point of view that even a place as conservative as Texas has judges who are doing this type of thing?

Brian? wrote: »

I am deeply unhappy with some identarians on the left, not because they are wrong in what they say, because it distracts from the bigger issues like wealth disparity. The left's primary focus should always be on economic issues. Solidarity with minorities is always important, but it shouldn't be your main focus.

Sensible approach.

Sand · 14-11-2019 9:15pm

FTA69 wrote: »

No when I say militant strike I just mean a strike. There is a small section of the working class here that is inherently reactionary, whose priority is disliking immigrants and who is incapable of solidarity in the workplace. I’ve met them, debated and chatted with them. I meet them on a weekly basis. People who will deride their baggage handling colleagues in the airport as “those f*cking Indians” and have an ideological opposition to unions and challenging the boss despite being on sh*t wages themselves. People in this context who undermine the collective effort are indeed scabs, they are definitely aiding the boss. And yes, lots of them do happen to have sympathies with the far-right. These people exist like.

Disliking someone who is a rank individualist who is willing to break a strike isn’t “authoritarian” necessarily, it’s a natural reaction to people who couldn’t give a f*ck about anyone else.

Being a socialist, you're likely aware that union membership in the UK has collapsed from 13.2 million in 1979 to just 6.2 million in 2016. That is even worse than the absolute numbers indicate: UK population was 56 million in 1979, 66 million in 2016 so union membership fell from 1 in 4 people to less than 1 in 11 people.

How did state of affairs - hugely beneficial to the boss - occur to organised labour in the UK? Well the bosses in the UK brought in scab labour from abroad who had no common cause with the indigenous British workers. Millions and millions of them. Through no fault of their own, these people don't speak the language, have little or no recognised qualifications and no connection to the locals other than sharing a post code. They're vulnerable, ripe for exploitation and they do the work at rates the British wont do it at. Now of course, you do your work as a good socialist to organise the new arrivals and convince them to find common cause with the indigenous people against the bosses. This takes decades of community work, education, empowerment, activism etc. It is long, hard work. And as you admit, there are always holdouts.

But while you are working on that, the borders have not closed. 526,000 people migrated into Britain in 2013 alone. The bosses never stop importing more scab labour. As the union membership figures show, in that particular arms race you are losing. You're a modern day Sisyphus.

Yes, those people may be crude in deriding "those f*cking Indians" but they are at least identifying that the interests of the working class in the UK are not helped by half a million new arrivals every year undercutting them. Turkeys should not vote for Christmas. It is the bosses who are universally in favour of more migration - more scab labour, lower and less secure wages, less union power.

Even if you disagree with all of the above, you might explain why you and the bosses both see more migration as a good thing? Can you both be right that it serves your interests when they are opposed?

20Cent · 14-11-2019 9:31pm

paleoperson wrote: »

You realize that it works against your point of view that even a place as conservative as Texas has judges who are doing this type of thing?

Sensible approach.

Think the opposite. It is a right wing state doing it. Why blame "the left"?

Sand · 14-11-2019 9:33pm

20Cent wrote: »

Think the opposite. It is a right wing state doing it. Why blame "the left"?

The 'right' and the 'left' are unified in advocating for mass migration. The right because it undercuts workers. The left because it gives them votes. And because it undercuts workers. There is no disagreement to be found on this topic.

paleoperson · 14-11-2019 9:41pm

20Cent wrote: »

Think the opposite. It is a right wing state doing it. Why blame "the left"?

When a traditional very right wing state is doing things that are clearly and obviously too far left there's clearly a problem.

paleoperson · 14-11-2019 9:42pm

Sand wrote: »

The 'right' and the 'left' are unified in advocating for mass migration. The right because it undercuts workers. The left because it gives them votes. And because it undercuts workers. There is no disagreement to be found on this topic.

Exactly. Then among the people you have the "useful idiots" that have taken it on and use it to virtue signal.

20Cent · 14-11-2019 10:11pm

Sand wrote: »

The 'right' and the 'left' are unified in advocating for mass migration. The right because it undercuts workers. The left because it gives them votes. And because it undercuts workers. There is no disagreement to be found on this topic.

Reality paints a different picture if you follow what Donald Trump is saying and doing, also the right in the UK.
Immigrants can't vote either so there's that.

Sand · 14-11-2019 10:37pm

20Cent wrote: »

Reality paints a different picture if you follow what Donald Trump is saying and doing, also the right in the UK.
Immigrants can't vote either so there's that.

The reality of Donald Trump is that he is in favour of 'legal' mass migration. The same for the Tories in the UK. Even Nigel Farage, evil fascist that he is, is in favour of 'legal' mass migration. The figleaf of the 'right' is to rail against 'illegal' mass migration whilst being completely in favour of 'legal' mass migration. The 'left' on the other hand is in favour of illegal and legal mass migration. It is only an debate over style, not substance - no party, even in Donald Trump's America thinks the end result should not be mass migration.

Back in 1986, it was a President of the 'right', Ronald Reagan, who granted amnesty to 3 million illegal immigrants. It did not affect his hero worship amongst the 'right' even slightly. So when it comes right down to it, the 'right' will still give their blessing to illegal mass migration. There is no right/left divide on the issue of mass migration. Mainstream politics is entirely committed to mass migration. Mainstream media is entirely committed to mass migration. Mainstream arts is entirely committed to mass migration. Mainstream academia is entirely committed to mass migration.

This is why the indigenous peoples increasingly have to turn to 'populist' parties to represent their objection to mass migration. It's also why groups like Antifa are essentially footsoldiers of the establishment. In attacking indigenous activists protesting against mass migration, they serve the same purpose as the 'triads' who attack the Hong Kong demonstrations while the police and courts stand back. In 2019 the violent repression of political dissent, like everything else, has been privatised.

And immigrants and their descendants can of course vote.

20Cent · 14-11-2019 11:18pm

Sand wrote: »

The reality of Donald Trump is that he is in favour of 'legal' mass migration. The same for the Tories in the UK. Even Nigel Farage, evil fascist that he is, is in favour of 'legal' mass migration. The figleaf of the 'right' is to rail against 'illegal' mass migration whilst being completely in favour of 'legal' mass migration. The 'left' on the other hand is in favour of illegal and legal mass migration. It is only an debate over style, not substance - no party, even in Donald Trump's America thinks the end result should not be mass migration.

Back in 1986, it was a President of the 'right', Ronald Reagan, who granted amnesty to 3 million illegal immigrants. It did not affect his hero worship amongst the 'right' even slightly. So when it comes right down to it, the 'right' will still give their blessing to illegal mass migration. There is no right/left divide on the issue of mass migration. Mainstream politics is entirely committed to mass migration. Mainstream media is entirely committed to mass migration. Mainstream arts is entirely committed to mass migration. Mainstream academia is entirely committed to mass migration.

This is why the indigenous peoples increasingly have to turn to 'populist' parties to represent their objection to mass migration. It's also why groups like Antifa are essentially footsoldiers of the establishment. In attacking indigenous activists protesting against mass migration, they serve the same purpose as the 'triads' who attack the Hong Kong demonstrations while the police and courts stand back. In 2019 the violent repression of political dissent, like everything else, has been privatised.

And immigrants and their descendants can of course vote.

Lol.
Antifa the footsoldiers of the establishment.
That is one hot take.
World class mental gymnastics.

Sand · 14-11-2019 11:35pm

20Cent wrote: »

Lol.
Antifa the footsoldiers of the establishment.
That is one hot take.
World class mental gymnastics.

Sean Kealiher is was a violent Antifa thug who was killed recently in odd circumstances at a known Antifa hangout in Portland, US. The Mayor of Portland, Ted Wheeler, took time out of his day to post condolences to the death of what by all accounts was a notoriously violent man.

When the mayor of the city mourns your death, the pretence that you present any threat to the interests of the establishment is nonsensical. The views of Antifa are completely in compliance with that of the HR department of any major corporation. Antifa are merely the militant wing of Facebook.

Overheal · 14-11-2019 11:46pm

Sand wrote: »

Sean Kealiher is was a violent Antifa thug who was killed recently in odd circumstances at a known Antifa hangout in Portland, US. The Mayor of Portland, Ted Wheeler, took time out of his day to post condolences to the death of what by all accounts was a notoriously violent man.

When the mayor of the city mourns your death, the pretence that you present any threat to the interests of the establishment is nonsensical. The views of Antifa are completely in compliance with that of the HR department of any major corporation. Antifa are merely the militant wing of Facebook.

I didn't know who you were talking about until a few moments ago, but odd circumstances like getting run over by an SUV? Please, illuminate the thread with your hot take.

Charlottesville dedicated a street to Heather Heyer - is Charlottesville city the antifa too?

Sand · 14-11-2019 11:54pm

Overheal wrote: »

I didn't know who you were talking about until a few moments ago, but odd circumstances like getting run over by an SUV? Please, illuminate the thread with your hot take.

Charlottesville dedicated a street to Heather Heyer - is Charlottesville city the antifa too?

I don't see anything new or interesting in your contribution to the thread. The point is the Mayor of Portland knew who this Antifa thug was and mourned him. The list of what you don't know is both long and irrelevant.

markodaly · 14-11-2019 11:56pm

FTA69 wrote: »

I’m not liberal at all. No time for liberalism.

So, I presume you equate liberalism to neo-liberalism.

Liberalism normally means things like free speach, respect for minorities, freedom of religion. It also by extension I suppose means free markets.

Can I ask what your politcal philosphy is, if you are not a liberal.

And to be honest, it should not matter really. Hitting someone over the head with an iron bar, in some street attack because you disagree with them is wrong. You do not have to be a liberal to agree with that.

Sand · 15-11-2019 12:05am

markodaly wrote: »

So, I presume you equate liberalism to neo-liberalism.

Liberalism normally means things like free speach, respect for minorities, freedom of religion. It also by extension I suppose means free markets.

Can I ask what your politcal philosphy is, if you are not a liberal.

And to be honest, it should not matter really. Hitting someone over the head with an iron bar, in some street attack because you disagree with them is wrong. You do not have to be a liberal to agree with that.

FTA69 is effectively a neoliberal. At it's heart, neoliberalism is about competion being an absolute good. When FTA69 condemns the indigenous English for dismissing scab labour as "those f*cking Indians" he is complying with the neoliberal paradigm. It is for the indigenous English to compete with those Indians, to prove their fitness to survive as the working class of the UK against immigrants from the rest of the world. If they cant, then FTA69 acknowledges that they deserve to fail.

He might excuse this by pretending they are fascist, the far-right or members of the Nazi party but ultimately he views them as losers in the competition with third world labour. If Achmed who cant speak English can thrive in the UK, why can't you? The UK ceases to be a nation, and instead becomes a crucible, burning away the inefficient and incompetent. That is the message traditional social democratic parties in Europe have for indigenous people - compete with third world labour tooth and claw or die. Its no different to the message parties of the 'right' have.

This is why indigenous people are forced to turn to 'populism'.

Overheal · 15-11-2019 12:13am

Sand wrote: »

The point is the Mayor of Portland knew who this Antifa thug was and mourned him.

Was he a thug for getting murdered by an SUV?

Overheal · 15-11-2019 12:15am

Sand wrote: »

The views of Antifa are completely in compliance with that of the HR department of any major corporation.

Are they? How?

Sand · 15-11-2019 12:21am

Overheal wrote: »

Was he a thug for getting murdered by an SUV?

Is this you adding to the list of the things you do not know?

He was a thug for being a notoriously violent Antifa member. That he was murdered in an Antifa hangout - known for their thuggish membership - is simply karma. Lie down with dogs, you get fleas. Antifa themselves have protected their (living) membership by discouraging anyone from co-operating with the investigation into his murder by fellow Antifa thugs.

This is who the Mayor of Portland associates with, because it is of no political cost to him. Whatever they pretend, Antifa are not dissidents to the political order. They are footsoldiers, endorsed and supported by the corporate and political elite.

markodaly · 15-11-2019 12:23am

Matt Barrett wrote: »

TBF, they turned into dictatorships. N. Korea or China are hardly communist. Russia is a good example (and to a lesser extent the U.S.). Putin uses the power of the state for personal gain and kills or imprisons rivals. Still passes itself off as a democracy, but isn't in practice IMO.

I don't think the unions have my interests at heart, I'm not in any at the moment. They look after their members, that's their job. Supporting striking workers is all regular people have. I'd never cross a picket.

That was my point. You cannot have a planned economy and a Socialist state without authoritarianism and tyranny. They are intricably linked.

To counter, Capitalism is flawed to an extent, but people live better and freer lives in general in that system as it kinda works, although in todays global world its begging to fray a bit.

If someone comes up with a better workable system, most people would listen. Harking back to 1970's style Marxism, is foolish like those Brexit people harking back to a 1950's Britain.

Overheal · 15-11-2019 12:27am

Sand wrote: »

He was a thug for being a notoriously violent Antifa member.

So he deserved to die?

That he was murdered in an Antifa hangout - known for their thuggish membership - is simply karma. Lie down with dogs, you get fleas. Antifa themselves have protected their (living) membership by discouraging anyone from co-operating with the investigation into his murder by fellow Antifa thugs.

So I'm in a "hangout" otherwise known as a public establishment, a bar. It's caveat emptor that I be run over by an SUV?

This is who the Mayor of Portland associates with, because it is of no political cost to him.

Do you have any evidence of Mayoral association, other than passing comment on a citizen who was murdered (by apparent political motivation no less) on Portland's streets by someone with an SUV?

Whatever they pretend, Antifa are not dissidents to the political order. They are footsoldiers, endorsed and supported by the corporate and political elite.

Oh of course they are. Vicious endorsed and supported and organized 'footsoldiers' until its convenient to label them inept, disorganized and dysfunctional basement dwelling anarchists again. Cake?

markodaly · 15-11-2019 12:30am

Brian? wrote: »

The political left isn't some massive homogeneous grouping completely aligned on everything.

I would agree.

However, would you also agree that the political right isnt some massive homogeneous grouping completely aligned on everything.

Just because one is right wing, does not mean they are a) a fascist b) a member of the BNP c) a white nationalist d) a neo-Nazi.

Too often in these debates, both sides like to point out the most extreme examples of the 'other' side and use that to try and paint all of the left/right like that.
This thread has numerous examples of it.

Brian? · 15-11-2019 7:43am

Sand wrote: »

Is this you adding to the list of the things you do not know?

He was a thug for being a notoriously violent Antifa member. That he was murdered in an Antifa hangout - known for their thuggish membership - is simply karma. Lie down with dogs, you get fleas. Antifa themselves have protected their (living) membership by discouraging anyone from co-operating with the investigation into his murder by fellow Antifa thugs.

This is who the Mayor of Portland associates with, because it is of no political cost to him. Whatever they pretend, Antifa are not dissidents to the political order. They are footsoldiers, endorsed and supported by the corporate and political elite.

I’m keeping a running list of who/what Antifa are:

Violent terrorist thugs, who are cowards who live in their mothers basements.

Not actual anti fascists, they’re the real fascists.

Just as anti Semitic as neo Nazis.

A bunch of Anarchists and communists who are really footsoldiers of the the political/economic elite.

Have I missed anything?

I am starting to suspect people may be projecting views on Antifa that are largely misplaced.

Brian? · 15-11-2019 7:46am

markodaly wrote: »

So, I presume you equate liberalism to neo-liberalism.

Liberalism normally means things like free speach, respect for minorities, freedom of religion. It also by extension I suppose means free markets.

Can I ask what your politcal philosphy is, if you are not a liberal.

And to be honest, it should not matter really. Hitting someone over the head with an iron bar, in some street attack because you disagree with them is wrong. You do not have to be a liberal to agree with that.

What is Liberalism? Classic Liberalism is a laissez faire approach to all things, economics and social issues. Minimal market regulation.

Neo liberalism is pretty much the same economically.

Liberals have never been on the left. You know that.

Brian? · 15-11-2019 8:21am

markodaly wrote: »

I would agree.

However, would you also agree that the political right isnt some massive homogeneous grouping completely aligned on everything.

Just because one is right wing, does not mean they are a) a fascist b) a member of the BNP c) a white nationalist d) a neo-Nazi.

Too often in these debates, both sides like to point out the most extreme examples of the 'other' side and use that to try and paint all of the left/right like that.
This thread has numerous examples of it.

Of course I agree. I'd struggle to find an example on here of someone painting the right as a homogenous group the way the left has been.

Antifa [Mod Warning on post #1 - updated 08/08/19]

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